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Color of Championships in Season Lists

Hey, i'm suggesting that using Red is a terrible color for highlighting NBA Championships in lists of each team's seasons. Red is typically associated with losing in Win/Loss graphics. The current setup uses green for the runner up in the Finals. Hopefully you can change it so neither use red and you only use colors that are typically associated with winning or at least are a neutral shade. Thanks. March 25 2022.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.6.134.182 (talk) 05:03, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest a new color scheme. It seems consistent with List of New York Yankees seasons, so it's not limited to NBA pages.—Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
Well I don't know who would decide to make changes wholesale across all of the sports, but Gold for championships, Green for Runner ups. The Blue shades used for division winners and playoff apearances are fine. Just no Red because of the negative connotation in sports Win/Loss circles. -- OP 3/27/22 100.6.134.182 (talk) 22:17, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
We're actually having a similar conversation over at the baseball wikiproject about the backwardness of using red to indicate a championship. I made a similar suggestion about using gold for championships and green for finalists. oknazevad (talk) 23:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Fast forwarding a bit, let's assume we finalize on some color changes. The daunting task is changing all the affected pages. I would suggest a template be used so that any future color modifications are centralized and not require mass edits again.—Bagumba (talk) 07:55, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Nationality and birth country in infobox

FYI

There is a related discussion to basketball infoboxes at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes#INFONAT.—Bagumba (talk) 02:51, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Annviersary teams

@TheFightGame: You reverted the change at Magic Johnson to combine the two anniversary teams into one line in the infobox. Pretty much all of these players will already have a large list of highlights already. Is there a fundamental reason for your objection to consolidate? You cited WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS in the edit summary. If it's merely procedural, we can update the style guide. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 07:09, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Yeah man I reverted simply because of the guideline, if that can be updated then I have no problem with the combined format because I do think that looks cleaner. I'm kinda obsessed with following every single guideline on wikipedia, sorry about that. TheFightGame (talk) 08:52, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
@TheFightGame No worries. It's good that someone is paying attention. I updated the style guide here. Let me know if there are any issues. In the future, if something looks good but is not in the style guide, consider being bold and updating it, or start a thread here. Best. —Bagumba (talk) 09:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Career stat coloration

Fred_VanVleet#Career_statistics has a baby blue background for MPG. The league leader played 37.91 mpg and VanVleet played 37.88 mpg. Although both averages round to 37.9, I don't think VanVleet's table is supposed to have this coloration. What is policy?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:32, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The policy is verifiability. I've removed it.—Bagumba (talk) 04:16, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion, {{NBA team histories}} and the newly created {{NBA team records}} should not have redlinks.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:19, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Ironman list

I think there should be an ironman list. In my opinion, the list should have a table that shows the progress of the all-time and active iron mans. It could also have a section with franchise all-time and active iron mans or that could be a separate potential article. I am not up for the task.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:17, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

With today's load management trends, the active leaders would have relatively unimpressive numbers. I can't see anyone coming close to A. C. Green's record. An all-time list would be interesting. Zagalejo (talk) 23:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
User:Zagalejo I don't think active and career would be separate articles. Look at the tables at the bottom of List of National Basketball Association career scoring leaders, List of National Basketball Association career rebounding leaders, List of National Basketball Association career assists leaders. Even though the article is suppose to be about the career leaders, the active leader table is of similar interest. I don't see a lot of franchise lists, but I see List of National Basketball Association franchise career scoring leaders. I imagine the pandemic stopped a lot of active franchise leader consecutive game streaks. The impetus for this request was work on the Duncan Robinson (basketball) article. He was the active as well as all-time Heat leader and his streak was stopped at 182 by the pandemic.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
What kinds of sources are available for this topic? Zagalejo (talk) 03:58, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
I guess the guys who have done the other lists with career and active leaders would be the people to ask. It seems that Basketball Reference is considered a WP:RS. All the basketball lists ({{NBA statistical leaders}}) seem to be entirely sourced by BR. However, when I go to the set of stats that they can source I do not see streaks. searching this page for streaks leads to a different domain that still seems to be a sports reference property. If BR is considered a RS, I assume stathead is too. I don't have experience with (or a subscription to) stathead.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:25, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Franchise records

Basketball Reference has franchise career and single-season records for a bounty of stats. At Duncan_Robinson_(basketball)#2019–20_season and Duncan_Robinson_(basketball)#Records, I have included content regarding records. However, it has come to my attention that the statistical eligibility minimums may be unusual. Robinson is credited as the Miami Heat all-time single season 2pt field goal percentage record holder for a season in which he took 81 2pt field goal attempts. What do people think about Basketball Reference as a source for franchise records?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Stats databases are considered WP:PRIMARY sources. A relevant part of the policy is:

Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them.

There would be a stronger basis for inclusion if it can be cited to a WP:SECONDARY source. Ultimately, stats mentions should be WP:PROPORTIONAL to its mention in coverage.—Bagumba (talk) 03:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Although WP:NBA does rely on stat databases for entire articles (see all the articles at {{NBA statistical leaders}}). This instance is neither about use as a source for an entire article nor a large passage. The question is twofold. In a WP:NBA biography, do we support using BR as a source for NBA as well as franchise career and single-season records without any other sourcing. Secondly, what do we know and believe about the eligibility minimums that this source uses.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:15, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
A dedicated section of miscellaneous records is a "large passage" of sorts. The case for inclusion is always stronger if it's cited to something besides a stats database or a non-independent source e.g. media guide, press release, etc.—Bagumba (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
All the records are sourced in the text. However, only 5 of the 30+ records are sourced to BR. So 1/6th of a large passage is not a large passage.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:10, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

NHOOPS

Now that NHOOPS has been rescinded, do participants here think it's worthwhile to try to establish a new basketball notability guideline -- perhaps one focused on the NBA (or NBA/ABA)? The biggest problem with the prior version of NSPORTS was that too many marginal leagues were included. If a basketball guideline were narrowly focused on the NBA (or NBA/ABA), it would be likely to garner greater support. A couple questions:

  • Should there be a start date for NBA player notability? By the 1970s, it's my sense that coverage of NBA players was pretty extensive. Was the same true in the late 1940s and 1950s? If a reasonable start date were part of a new guideline, that might help make it palatable to the broader community.
  • Should there be a "games played" threshold? If the new guidance had a minimum games played threshold, players with fewer games could still qualify under GNG, but we would at least have some clearer guidance on the vast majority of NBA players.

Of course, the argument can also be made that we are better off simply relying on GNG and not adopting a new, more limited version of NHOOPS. Cbl62 (talk) 15:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

  • Comment There definitely needs to be a standard for BAA/NBA/ABA players and probably WNBA (which has only existed since 1997). But I disagree there were too many marginal leagues - I think there were 7 leagues represented when you took out the NBA and historical ancestors. I think the American National Basketball League was iffy because of the early years of it and the pro/am nature. I feel pretty certain the EuroLeague (only the top teams in Europe) qualifies as well as the top Spanish and Italian leagues. Beyond that, don't have a strong feeling. But it seems like using what is being called "participation" won't be allowed after the RfC. Rikster2 (talk) 15:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
    • And to answer your question, no there should not be a start date for NBA players. The league was just started in 1948, well within the bounds of modern media. And 90% of NBA players met GNG before they stepped on the court because college basketball is so well covered nationally. It really is about making the league, not some artificial number of games threshold. This is something many at the RfC never understood. Stepping on an NBA court does not make you notable. But if you step on an NBA court you likely have spent years starring in basketball and being covered, either in college, another pro league or high school. The league is the best of the best, that is what it is. Rikster2 (talk) 15:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
I wonder if we start with 2000s and on for NBA players who played 1 game and gradually work our way back. At least we dont have the football problem where a lot of offensive lineman might not have much coverage. Personally, I'm kinda burnt out on that RfC and recent NSPORTS DRVs. The articles I've created in recent years generally listed a few sources of sig cov to start.—Bagumba (talk) 15:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Fuck that - let them delete all the articles. That whole RfC was ridiculous. Displayed a fundamental lack of understanding or willingness to understand. Editors get mad at the plethora of olympic, soccer and cricket permastubs and just wanted to tear the whole thing down instead of trying to make it a true gauge of notability. I have been on this site long enough to remember the ridiculous AfDs that took place over folks who were clearly notable with no WP:BEFORE done. The SSG at least stopped that, but perhaps swung the pendulum too far the other way. Rikster2 (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
I get that. Practically speaking, I dont deal with too many historical players, so I'll just let go if there's an AfD onslaught, unless I have a personal connection to player in question to save it then and there. Otherwise, there is no deadline to recreate, if that's what we're stuck with.—Bagumba (talk) 15:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, that is when I will worry about it, if there are ridiculous AfDs. If I see editors with a pattern of wholesale AfDing articles without doing a legit WP:BEFORE or asking for expert help I am taking them to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents as well. 15:55, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, here is what should seriously be added to NHOOPS (in addition to what is still there). Because right now it’s a joke. Apparently the only leagues you likely are notable for winning awards are the CBA and G League.

  1. Scored at least 500 points in the NBA, BAA, ABA, WNBA, Lega Basket Serie A, Liga ACB, EuroLeague, EuroCup, Australian NBL
  2. Won a major award (player of the year, playoff MVP, rookie of the year, defensive player of the year award or an all-league or league all-rookie selection in a set of leagues including those above and I would recommend adding a number of other top level leagues (in addition to the 2 minor leagues already listed)
  3. Elected to the Naismith, FIBA, college basketball or women’s basketball Halls of Fame
  4. won a medal in the Olympic Games
  5. Received a major award at the NCAA division I college level (men or women). Examples include national player/freshman/defensive player of the year, a major All-American team as defined by the NCAA’s consensus teams, or conference player of the year.

Rikster2 (talk) 17:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

We should ditch the thinking of "better leagues = more sources". I've tried writing articles on FIBA tournaments, and it's so hard to find in-depth match summaries outside of FIBA's websites themselves, more so if the United States isn't playing. The Euroleague is barely covered in English. Has anyone tried doing a DYK for the Copa del Rey de Baloncesto final? I tried but my Spanish is so bad now. The leagues outside the United States with the most in-depth English sources has to be the Philippine Basketball Association, followed probably by the University Athletic Association of the Philippines (men's tournament), and the National Basketball League (Australia). I'd even be open to letting major conferences and major teams from mid-major conferences in US college basketball as "shoo-ins" than say, someone playing in the Russian league. Has anyone tried writing a BLP of a random Qatari that played in the 2006 FIBA World Championship? Have you guys attempted to write about Michael Jordan's Angolan opponents in the 1992 Olympics? I guess not. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, then make a suggestion. But I would say that MJ's Angolan opponents wouldn't be included anyway since the guidance I drafted says medalists (which matches current SSG for the Olympics). Rikster2 (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, I forgot that discussion changed the minimum from participation to winning a medal.
Reading your suggestion, "Scored at least 500 points... in the Lega Basket Serie A, Liga ACB, EuroLeague, EuroCup, Australian NBL." So, I tried researching for MJ's bronze medalists Lithuanian opponents' domestic league stats... and since these were in the 1990s, this was next to impossible. Pro leagues outside the US play x*2 games in the domestic league's regular season, where "x" is the number of teams, and this is well below the 82 games the NBA plays. (Example: 2020–21 Real Madrid Baloncesto season had 87 games across all competitions, including playoffs in the Liga ACB and Euroleague regular season and playoffs.) Playoffs are considerably much shorter as well, with only a few domestic leagues having best-of-7 finals, and the Euroleague only has 2 games in between the semifinals and finals. It may be conceivable that some players reach 500 points collectively in all of those leagues, and not just one, but these are rather few. For example, Ed Davis (basketball) has scored 691 points in his career, but has never averaged in double figures, and this is an NBA guy who has played since 2010. Compare to Spanish national team member Sergio Llull (granted this guy won a medal in the Olympics) has scored only 417 points since 2007 across all leagues, and has averaged in double figures 11 times. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:29, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
OK, then just strip it back to the NBA. I am not that interested in overthinking this crap since in reality most of these guys would meet GNG anyway. Rikster2 (talk) 18:35, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Please take note I misread the stats tables. Ed Davis played 691 games, and may have conceivably scored more than that (LOL). I mean Andrew Gaze scored almost 19,000 in Australia. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Also 500 cumulative points in a career is easy if a player is good enough to play anywhere in the world. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
I test drove the 500 point mark. A guy like Dave Hoppen was around 800 career points. He played 6 seasons as a reserve. He is absolutely notable and was before he got to the league as he was a prominent college player (Nebraska's all-time leading scorer) - sources are already on the article. Rich King did not meet the threshold (135 points), but still played 72 games. Ricky Berry played one season before committing suicide, but was seen as an up and comer. He scored 706 points and absolutely meets GNG. 500 points is a reasonable threshold for an NBA player. Especially since if you actually did the research ion each player I'd be shocked if less than 99% of all NBA players met GNG. You don't just get dropped on an NBA court, you already had been successful somewhere else Rikster2 (talk) 18:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Yeah for a player who reached the NBA, 500 is an achievable mark for someone who had accomplished by just getting there. For those who don't, they have to be a lot better in their domestic leagues to surpass that, as they play less games, but they still can surpass that (the same Gaze scored 44 points in 26 games in the NBA). Howard the Duck (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
The more complicated a guideline is the less useful it is. I'd really advise against trying to create too many levels (500 points for these league, 1000 points for these leagues, etc) Rikster2 (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Considering this is the primary way most basketball players can get in (you can count on your two hands the major awards in the NBA/NCAA, the number of Hall of Fame inductees per year, and the Olympic medalists per year (12 members, 3 teams in 4 years = 9 medalists/year)), I suppose this is rather fair so that only the better non-NBAers can get in via this SNG without passing GNG. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. I would not be so quick to assume that a threshold of, say 10 or 20 NBA games, would be rejected by the community. The existing participation thresholds under discussion were all for "one" game and applied to dozens upon dozens of leagues (mostly soccer). If the basketball project came forward with a 10- or 20-game threshold along with solid random sampling showing that such players get SIGCOV, I think it would be sell-able. Cbl62 (talk) 21:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
    • That strikes me as really dumb (not directed at you, mind you). If the whole idea is that "participating" is a bad metric, then how is participating more acceptable? If we truly are going to talk about how many games makes a player likely notable - the answer is one. It is binary - you either played in the top level league in the world or you didn't. And I would be more than willing to test this assumption. Some guy who played 10 games isn't suddenly more notable than the guy who plays one - they just appear in more box scores. Rikster2 (talk) 21:22, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      Yeah, I'd be more okay with a minimum points scored than a minimum games played, as scoring involves more skill than merely subbing in to a game (As Tony Snell's infamous 0-0-0-0-0 statline shows you.) Howard the Duck (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      I read suproposal 3 as being directed at the pre-existing guidelines based on one game of participation. Participation is not "binary", as you put it. The "more participation" you have in a professional sport, the more likely you are to be notable. It's pretty basic stuff -- a player who plays one game and doesn't cut it is not going to receive the same level of coverage as a player who sticks around for five, 10, 20, or 40 NBA games. Personally, I think a "500 point" threshold sets the mark way, way, way too high for NBA players. And such a threshold would only be used by deletionists to argue that an NBA player who "only" scored 200 points isn't notable. Cbl62 (talk) 21:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      In the case of the NBA, I assure you it is binary. The issue is the scads of other leagues (potentially including some hoops leagues) for which that is not true. Remember, the coverage they get as an NBA player is not all the coverage they receive in their career. That was one of the big fallacies of that RfC. Rikster2 (talk) 21:43, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      500 point threshold is pretty low. Sonny Weems scored ~1,189 points in 5 years the NBA. He scored ~690 points for CSKA Moscow in his first two years there. If a modern day American basketball player can't score 500 in the NBA, he can score 500 elsewhere. (This may be different in pre-ABA merger players though.) Howard the Duck (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      500 points is actually a threshold that excludes a huge swath of NBA players. Starting with the beginning of the alphabet, here's the tip of the iceberg of players that would be excluded by a 500-point threshold but preserved by a 15-game threshold: Alex Acker (30 games played), Don Ackerman (28 games), Bud Acton (23 games played), Hassan Adams (73 games), Jaylen Adams (41 games), Jordan Adams (32 games), Deng Adel (19 games), Blake Ahearn (19 games), Matt Aitch (45 games), Henry Akin (88 games), Solomon Alabi (26 games), Gary Alcorn (78 games), Santi Aldama (27 games), Furkan Aldemir (41 games), and the list goes on and on .... Cbl62 (talk) 03:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      But don't all these players pass GNG anyway? As Rikster2 points out, the NBA is in a league of its own when it comes to coverage. I don't really see any need to create a special notability guideline for NBA players, as pretty much all of them got significant coverage for being a college star or later due to their association with the league. For pre-internet players, I've never had any problems finding coverage on even the lowliest NBA players on newspapers.com. For modern day NBA players, now matter how minor they where, there is generally wealth of sources found online. In my experience the same goes for the WNBA, I've generally have never any any problem finding coverage on even one-game-wonders as US players where generally college stars and foreign players tend to get massive coverage just for their association with the league.
      Spain and Italy are a little closer to home for me and and the old NHOOPS was quite frankly very generous towards including all players who ever played there, as for others leagues listed there. I actually did look up the conversation about which leagues should be included in NHOOPS a while back and there was no research done to check if a certain percent of players where very likely to pass GNG. It was basically "If the NBA is included, then we want to have the top European leagues as well." For modern day athletes in those leagues, I don't see any need for a special notability guideline. There is wast online coverage of those leagues and if a certain player there still doesn't get significant coverage, then just maybe he isn't notable. On the other hand, I could see use for a some sort of SNG for historical players from major leagues in non-english speaking countries. Alvaldi (talk) 08:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      that was kind of my thinking, put a reasonable clear bar in and the rest get covered under GNG. I do think the historical players whose sources would largely not be in English need something. Very open to other suggestions, just trying to get the ball rolling. But I don’t like the idea of No SSG. I’ve been on this site long enough to remember when there absolutely were frivolous AfDs and having a clear SSG did stop the more egregious ones before they had a head of steam. I would like to codify the Olympic medalist part as there are efforts underway to change NOlympic again for teams. Rikster2 (talk) 09:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      Here are a few suggestions that we could research. To conduct the research, maybe we could check if every internet-era medalist/award winner passes GNG, then randomly check pre-internet subjects to see if they pass. Also make sure that we check not just from the top leagues (Spain, Italy etc.) but also where basketball is not as popular (Ireland)?
      • Major award winners in top-tier national leagues. For instance league MVP (sometimes its split into domestic and foreign/import MVP) and playoffs MVP. Not sure about others such as Defensive PoY.
      • Major award winner in a major continental competition, for instance EuroLeague MVP.
      • Medalist as a player or head coach in Olympics or FIBA World Cup (or just Olympics)
      • Major award winner in a major FIBA continental competition (here I'm thinking the likes of EuroBasket)
      • MVP of a national cup. (I'm not sure these would all pass GNG but it would be interesting to see what results from a research)
      • All-time leaders in major statistical category in a top-tier national league (scoring, rebounds, assists - same as a national cup MVP, not all that sure)
      I know the bar might be a bit high in these suggestions but maybe this is a start? Personally I think all participation thresholds should be off the table. As mention earlier, the leagues where a mere participation usually means plenty of coverage don't need them as, unsurprisingly, it is so easy to find the coverage needed online. And judging from older conversations, it tends to lead to other leagues where not everybody is really notable to be added. Alvaldi (talk) 12:27, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      I'm interested in the 500-point limit. Is that career or just for a single league? For instance, one of the examples, Jaylen Adams, already has ~267 points in 13 games with the Sydney Kings. The Aussie NBL is halfway through its season, and he could conceivably hit 500 in a single league in one season. If you'd include his NBA and G-League stats, he conceivably have hit 500 points. He could've also passed GNG as a player of St. Bonaventure when he was in college. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      My intent was 500 points in one of the named leagues. Rikster2 (talk) 13:31, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      Hmmmm. Most Americans not good enough to play in the NBA jump around different leagues each season. They may not compile enough points considering they play less games and move around more. Eugene Jeter never stayed in a single team for more than two years except for one instance, although there's a good bet he scored 500+ points in the Chinese Basketball Association has he played 8 seasons in 3 teams there. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:38, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      So he'd just be under GNG, which he would easily pass. Rikster2 (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      I'll bow out and leave it to those who know basketball best. Two last words of caution: Don't abandon the idea that the community will accept a specific game threshold for the pinnacle league (NBA) with statistical thresholds for other leagues. Also make sure that your new proposed guideline is 100% clear that it is not an exclusive test, i.e., that players who don't pass the criteria can still have articles if they pass GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 13:54, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      As an example, one of the most ardent anti-sports editors, User:BilledMammal, recently posted at the rugby board: "Do you have a proposal for cap based participation criteria? I can see the potential of restoring one based on participation in tier one teams, but I believe we need to consider the relevant period." Much of the fury driving recent discussion was with sports other than basketball where the list of leagues was ridiculously bloated. Cbl62 (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
      Basketball is a global sport, much more than rugby. It is played at most 5 divisions deep in many countries. I think participation criteria of using "games played" will make it too easy for many sub-stubs to make it, that's why a 500-point minimum kinda works (not every player's role is to score points, but if someone's good enough, he'd play enough games to score 500 anywhere in the world). Any criteria has to take into account that it is not just a US-based sport, and that some countries structure competition differently than the US (I'd even say the US is the one that does it differently). Howard the Duck (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Alvaldi: – OK, what are we calling the internet era? I can start to pull some things together. Rikster2 (talk) 13:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, strictly speaking the internet era is probably around 25-30 years by now and the first years might not be easily accessable. Maybe we should aim at starting at 2005 see how it goes, how does that sound? Alvaldi (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment If we start seeing historical player articles getting AfD-sniped left and right (especially for, say, the American NBL players), I think it'd be wise to move the stub articles into the general "List of Foo Team players" lists. For the NBL, it would not be a tall order to basically take every existing all-time roster article and create incredibly comprehensive list-articles where each player gets their own subsection, but copy/pasted from their individual articles. This would not only preserve the information we do have on the historical players, but it'd also satisfy those douchebag nominators' itches about their NoTaBiLiTy CoNcErNs. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Probably worth taking a look at the proposed WP:NFOOTY guidelines and seeing how that discussion goes. Link, discussion on the talk page. Interestingly seems to still include a one-game standard but with fewer leagues (which would have been my solution to the RfC in the first place). Rikster2 (talk) 14:27, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
    It seems that FOOTY's primary criteria is ease of finding sources. Is that right? Howard the Duck (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Intermediate break

Quite a few ideas above on re-imagining NHOOPS. Perhaps we should pick one to start and see how viable it might be. My first suggestion would be to flesh out for the NBA only to start—this is WP:NBA, and it is the top league in the world. The process can provide a blueprint for other leagues, if there is interest to expand further. Ideas from above I see as promising are:

  • 1-game NBA participation
  • 500 career points
  • Limiting criteria to year 2000 (or other) and on

Feel free to expand.—Bagumba (talk) 08:46, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

  • If one game played is viable (looking at the FOOTY proposal) that is my recommendation for the NBA. The league only formally goes back to the 1946–47 season (as the BAA) so there really aren't big issues with sports coverage lacking like baseball and football face. It is the youngest of the "big four" North American sports. I'd probably also say WNBA (formed 1997) and the ABA (1967–1976 with a tv contract and heavy news coverage equal to the NBA) are viable for that standard. Rikster2 (talk) 19:28, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
    • I think including the old NBL in that standard is problematic though. Might need a multi-game or other threshold. That league is older and went through a period where it was sort of ad hoc and had a pro/am feel to it. I don't know that all those guys necessarily would meet GNG. Rikster2 (talk) 20:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I would also go with the one-game standard, as generally there would be significant coverage of college/other pro teams. It's a bit of a toss up for pre NBA leagues, so I think they could be examined on a case by case basis. GNG might be met but it is tougher to find old sources. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 20:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Once we decide the threshold we want to start with, we will need to demonstrate to non-fans that it is reasonable. That would be something like 95% of a random selection meeting GNG. Here are some ideas to consider for getting a random selection:

  • Take the 1st alphabetical player of each letter e.g. A, B, C etc. for a 26 player sample
  • Or take the 1st 25 players starting with a specific letter e.g. players with last name starting with 'L'

For players whose article is lacking, we see if we can add sources to it. Once we establish that ~25 works, do we expand to 50? 100?

Other considerations:

—Bagumba (talk) 01:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

All crossed out at User:Alvaldi/sandbox/NBA players with one game now. Even at 100%, I'm sure there will still be resistance, given vibes at WT:NSPORTS. Perhaps we come up with a plan here, and then get some feedback from a few sports contributors outside WP:NBA.—Bagumba (talk) 13:37, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

There are probably always going to be some who don't agree with this, but thats just how the world goes. I think the biggest problems that some of the sports projects are having at WT:NSPORTS is that they present their case without really doing any research. In our case, we have gone over all NBA players with only one game and added at least two significant sources to each article so we have some evidence to back up our claim that the wast majority of NBA players have multiple sources of significant coverage. The reason these players do have that coverage is that they were usually a star somewhere else before joining the league, either in their home country or in the American high school and college system which both get quite alot of coverage. Basically you have to be the best of the best to get into the NBA as according to the NCAA about 3.5% of high school basketball players go on to play in the NCAA divisions (1% in Division I) and of those, about 1.2% go on to play in the NBA. Alvaldi (talk) 15:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
we should put this forward (with the research/detail) as the start of WP:NBASKETBALL and then move on to other leagues. It is what it is. Rikster2 (talk) 23:33, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

28 straight free throws

With Steph Curry sidelined, Jordan Poole made his final 28 consecutive free throws to win the free throw percentage race 92.5% to 92.3%. Has anybody seen a ref about this story? All I see is a ref about him going 4-4 in the final day.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Resolved

--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Help with ambiguous phrasing

Nik Stauskas posted 57 on one night and 43 the next. In his bio I have the phrase "He is the only G League player to have totaled 100 points on back-to-back nights." Does this sound ambiguous?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

It's clearer when you specifically say he had 57- and 43-point games. Zagalejo (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

G League FT stats seem to be off

Have you ever looked at the bottom of a GLeague box scores and realized the scores don't add up? It seems that if you go to the line and make both FTs it is counted as 1‐1 on a 2PT FT rather than 2‐2 on 1PT FTs. I spent a while trying to make sense of the https://gleague.nba.com/games/20220301/WISGRG/ (also https://stats.gleague.nba.com/game/2022100322/) where Nik Stauskas was credited with 57 points on 20/29 FG, 11/15 3PT, 5/6 FT shooting. See the P-B-P 10:10 2Q. He should be credited as 6/7 from the line. I think this is a widespread issue and it may be the case that free throw stats are off leaguewide for the whole season.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:25, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

That's weird. Over the years, I've noticed oddities in NBA stats, as well. For a time, there were discrepancies between NBA.com and other sites because NBA.com wasn't rounding certain numbers correctly. (The exact details escape me.) Historically speaking, lots of statistics should be taken with a grain of salt because record-keeping is never perfect. This Retrosheet article about reconciling MLB stats was always interesting. Zagalejo (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
I think this means that any team that had a player make both free throws in a trip to the line has a faulty box score that does not reconcile due to a faulty modern computing. This is more than weird. It really hurts free throw percentages of people who draw a lot of fouls and are good free throw shooters. I think the article you are pointing to is not related to a systematic computing issue since they mention microfilm research.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
It was just an aside on sports stats in general. My impression is that few people in the world would ever look that closely at G-League free throw stats, so you may be the first person to ever notice this specific problem. Zagalejo (talk) 00:03, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Probably the free throw rule change.[3]—Bagumba (talk) 00:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Holy cow! There is a such thing as a 2-point free throw.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
P.S. Kudos to User:Bagumba.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
User:Bagumba, do you get a single shot for a three-point shot foul as well?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:04, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
That's what the article seems to say, unless they have changed in the years since. —Bagumba (talk) 15:40, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Have any other leagues adopted this or was it copied from somewhere else?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:20, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Pre-WP:RFC discussion

I was going to pursue an WP:RFC, but will try to reach an accord here first. I have been recently re-reverted and re-re-reverted by an editor who seems to both be a constructive editor and an editor with a lot of content removal warnings (User:Mandomanny313). We remain at odds on the robustness of WP:LEAD content at both Duncan Robinson (basketball) and Kendrick Nunn. I have tried various levels of robustness, but can not come to stable level of content.

Robinson

At Robinson, I would like to include "He is the Heat franchise record holder for 3-point shots made in a quarter, a half, a single-game, consecutive games and a season. Robinson is the fastest in NBA history to get to 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 and 700 three-point shots made in terms of games played. He is the NBA G League all-time career 3-point shot percentage leader. He also holds numerous franchise shooting percentage records, including true shooting percentage and effective shooting percentage. Robinson has also set records for an undrafted player (single-season three-point shots, NBA finals three-point shots, undrafted duo scoring, and largest contract). He also has several durability accolades: Heat franchise ironman (182 consecutive games played), G League 2018–19 minutes per game leader (36.9), NCAA single-season games played (41) co-record holder and Williams college single-season minutes played record." I have even been rebuffed with the more modest "As a professional he has continued to earn accolades for durability (minutes and games played)" content.

Try to keep things simple in the lead. Right now, the final sentence of the lead is, "Robinson has set numerous 3-point shot records during his tenure with the Heat." I think that's sufficient. The facts will have more room to breathe within the body of the article. Zagalejo (talk) 00:37, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Nunn

At Nunn, I would like to at least include "Nunn's NBA records include being the fastest Heat rookie to achieve 500 points (31 games) and most points by an undrafted NBA player in his first 5 games (112)." if not a more robust version with content including " fastest Heat rookie to achieve 500 points (31 games), most points by an undrafted NBA player in his first 5 games (112), most NBA Conference Rookie of the Month awards by an undrafted player (3) and most single-game points by an undrafted duo (70)."--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:59, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

These records seem a bit too specific to be lead-worthy. Zagalejo (talk) 00:43, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Relevant discussion at Template talk:College

I've started a discussion at Template talk:College about how to handle listings for high schools that are entered into {{player2}} and how they are then displayed on rosters. The discussion can be found here. Please chime in if you have any thoughts! -fuzzy510 (talk) 01:11, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Hustle Award

I had removed it from Marcus Smart's infobox, thinking it was a fan award or short-lived, but Mandomanny313's revert made me dig more and realize it's still an ongoing award. First of all, there should be a NBA Hustle Award page if it's going to be in the infobox (not just a generic link to 2019 NBA Awards), otherwise it's not helpful to make display it so prominently, as I don't think it's a well-known award.

Second of all, is it major enough to even take up space in the inbox? Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

...keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.

—Bagumba (talk) 05:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

The NBA Hustle Award really isn't notable or major enough to be in the infobox. It also isn't mentioned in the list for WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS so might as well keep it out and mention it in the body instead. Spinz131 (talk) 08:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

With nobody else providing an argument otherwise, I agree that it's a lesser award that's fine in the body, but not worth cluttering the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 04:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

List of longest NBA field goals

Please feel free to help improve and shore up the article List of longest NBA field goals!

There are hidden tagline instructions detailing the editing process and how entries align with WP standards.

Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 05:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Olympics MVP

An editor added "Tokyo Olympics Basketball Tournament MVP (2021)" to Kevin Durant's infoxbox. Some points:

  • This is not listed at WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS as something we list
  • There is no wikilink to an award page. Is this a one-off, something just written by one writer, or a regular award?
  • It's cited from the FIBA website, but the WP infobox text makes it sound like an IOC award
  • Does this meet MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

    When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.

Is there support to have this listed?—Bagumba (talk) 06:28, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I support this, this a major award as this is the MVP award of the most prestige international tournament in the world. There are several independent sources covering him and Breanna Stewart winning the award on Tokyo, and to a lesser extent about the tournaments All-teams.[4][5][6][7] This however might be a new award. I haven't found a source that states that this is the first time its awarded but I'm not finding anything about a MVP award from the 2016 and 2012 games. If accepted, I would leave the "Tokyo" part out of the name. Alvaldi (talk) 09:09, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
The Olympics MVP award has been discussed before, since Manu Ginóbili is also listed as such. Oddly, Manu is the only MVP listed on this FIBA page from 2016. There's no one listed for any other year. Zagalejo (talk) 18:49, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
The Manu discussion is at Talk:Manu_Ginóbili#Olympics_MVP. It didn't look like there was consensus there, but it's currently in his infobox, with no wikilink. How important can it be if we haven't met WP:LISTN to create a page on it?—Bagumba (talk) 21:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
The editor who re-added it to Manu is the same as the recent one for Durant.—Bagumba (talk) 08:52, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be consensus for it to be in the infobox, but I WP:PRESERVED the information by moving it to the body of Durant. I've also removed it from Ginobli, where there was the past discussion on his talk page that was not in favor of its inclusion.—Bagumba (talk) 04:27, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Conference Finals MVPs

With the recent addition of Conference Finals MVPs, I noticed that they have been added to the infoboxes of those who have won it. However, on WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS, it states to exclude Conference Championships from the infoboxes since they're not notable so shouldn't Conference Finals MVPs be excluded as well since they are on the same playoff level and not notable compared to the Finals MVP or the regular season MVP awards? Spinz131 (talk) 07:04, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure few if any bio leads bother mentioning number of conference championships in prose, since they're not frequently discussed in reliable sources. The Conference MVP is new, but eventually someone always seems to include any official NBA award into the infobox e.g. see #Hustle Award above. Frankly, I'd trim out a lot of others (pending consensus) before worrying about the conf MVP. The equivalent would be baseball's League Championship Series Most Valuable Player Award, which does seem to be part of a player's notability.—Bagumba (talk) 07:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:BASKETBALL re Plural changes to List of Champions tables

I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball#Plural changes to List of Champions tables. Keen to hear people's thoughts. Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:32, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Accessibility issues with NBA brackets

Hello. There is an issue with the current tournament brackets used in NBA pages, such as {{10TeamBracket-NBA}} and {{16TeamBracket-NBA}}. The background colors used cause an accessibility issue. Specifically, neither the red nor the blue background is WCAG AAA compatible for standard blue links and purple visited links. Per MOS:COLOR, we should be meeting the AAA standard whenever possible. It is in my opinion that the colors are largely unnecessary, and we should be using the standard grey background that is used for every other team bracket, such as {{8TeamBracket}}. Nonetheless, the accessibility issue should be addressed. – Pbrks (t • c) 05:56, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd be OK with removing the colors. I don't think they add much. Zagalejo (talk) 01:02, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Remove. There's not even an aesthetic justification like with team colors.—Bagumba (talk) 06:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

NBA players with two career games

I've been going through the list of NBA players who appeared in two games during their NBA career and adding WP:SIGCOV. Of the 20 on the list, I've sourced 16 so far. If anyone is interested in helping out with the final four, that would be very appreciated. They are Ed Earle, Murray Mitchell, Jim Springer and "Rocket" Ray Ramsey. Alvaldi (talk) 10:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I added a bit to Ed Earle. Zagalejo (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
I added several significant sources to "Rocket" Ray Ramsey, three to go. Alvaldi (talk) 22:01, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Play-in tournament listing on "list of seasons" page

I know it was settled that if a team qualifies for the play-in tournament but not, eventually, the NBA playoffs, the games are treated as a separate section in the team's article for that specific season and they are marked as not having qualified for the playoffs. Which is fine.

How, then, do we list these games on the "list of seasons" page? They were good enough to qualify for the tournament, so that should mean something even if it's not quite the same thing as making the playoffs. On the equivalent NHL team pages, if a team made the play-in tournament (as it was used in 2020) but did not make the playoffs, it is listed on the team's results page.

Therefore, I think this should also be listed, in some way, on each NBA team's "list of seasons" page if it is relevant.-RomeW (talk) 04:37, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Changes to tournament brackets

Hello everyone. Per the discussion above, Just a follow up; I have removed the red/blue colors from the following templates:

Let me know if you have any questions. – Pbrks (t • c) 04:21, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Help with article

Hey, anyone available to fix up List of career achievements by Chris Paul? It's extremely poorly-written. Seems like whoever made it forgot to finish it or something like that. Being that CP is one of the biggest players in the game currently, this should be pretty vital to the WikiProject. ~~ Rananth0207 (talk) 18:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia model doesn't work well with articles like this - especially when the player is still active. There are too many little things that need to be updated on a regular basis. In the case of Chris Paul, I'd argue that a separate "achievements" article isn't necessary to begin with. The important stuff should be included the main Chris Paul article, if it's not already there. Overly specific accomplishments aren't worth preserving. (For example: "Only player in NBA history to record at least 10 points and 10 assists in each of the first 13 games of a season." -- Would the average fan even notice if another player did the same thing?) Zagalejo (talk) 04:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Be aware that these types of pages are liable to get deleted, based on related outcomes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Dwyane Wade, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Dwyane Wade (2nd nomination), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Brett Favre.—Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Basketball Team Roster Infobox

Hello, can anyone help me on how to make an infobox of a basketball team roster be color-coded and have the team's name as the header? Can't seem to figure it out. Team in question is for Overtime Elite's roster in the draft article I am developing. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Overtime_Elite) Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 13:31, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we should do what the association football project does with their roster boxes, just plain without the colors; that could make it easier for other people to create one. Current examples are MOS:COLOR disasters. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:51, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Adding teams abbreviations to articles

I proposed adding the team abbreviations to the infoboxes (or at least the articles bodies) here. Please state your opinion. Thanks. --Angus (talk) 14:10, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Stathead as a source

Is it alright to use Stathead alone as a reference for stats? Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Generally, it's better to cite a source with prose to avoid the risk that it's WP:OR.—Bagumba (talk) 17:43, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Vital Articles level 5 basketball players discussion

Here at Vital articles level 5, I have started a discussion that people from this project might be interested in participating in. It is at this link: Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5#Add_Bob_McAdoo_remove_Pau_Gasol.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:11, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

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