Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 47

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Archive 46

Archive 47

Player lists and flags

For the most part, NBA rosters and lists have not shown a players nationality. The NBA does not have a quota (aside from an unofficial one for Blacks in the early days), unlike some other domestic leagues, where it might be relevant. For flags, MOS:SPORTFLAG says:

Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense. Flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality.

But none of these are relevant to almost any NBA-related list. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 20 § Nationality, discussion led to removal of nationality. At best, there was discussion that some NBA awards talked about a player being "international", probably related part of the NBA's push to establish itself as global. So NBA award pages were previously the only page that listed nationality, since it was considered WP:DUE. Someone went and added flags at some point. And some players have multiple nationalies, but many WP lists just show one of them. Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon ended up with US citizenship too, but was still touted as "international" by the NBA.[1]

If the intent is to use the NBA sense of "international", then labelling it "Nationality" has always been misleading.—Bagumba (talk) 06:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, most European soccer leagues do not have player quotas, but still have flags on them.

Most basketball leagues except U.S. ones do have quotas. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

It might be relevant in footy somehow, but is WP:UNDUE and trivial in NBA coverage. Almost like some editors wanting to make national team coaching stints prominent in NBA coach infoboxes. I'm not even sure if it's as prestegious in other countries for hoops as it is for footy. —Bagumba (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

National team coaching stints tend to be a rather big deal in the world. In my experience it is mostly U.S. based people who tend to, for a lack of better words, "look down on" national team related things. Alvaldi (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd say its a bigger deal for say US Soccer. For US basketball, men's and women's, they've mostly gotten away with just getting an All-Star team together a few weeks before the Olympics. The gap is closing. There's less Amer interest in FIBA World Cup. —Bagumba (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

For national team coaching in infoboxes, should that just be listed as an entry on the list of teams someone coached for? We do this on other sports (not just soccer). Baseball, an American sport more averse to national team competitions than basketball, lists coaching stints of national team managers, the Japanese ones, at least. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Outside of NBA coaches, national team coaching stints are generally listed in basketball coaches infoboxes. Alvaldi (talk) 19:42, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The last discussion I believe at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 12 § National teams in infoboxes had no consensus. One of the arguments was why do differently for coaches than we do for players, for which we only shows medals. —Bagumba (talk) 14:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

As in, why would we show NT coaching stints in the career history when we don't show the NT playing stints in the career history? I could ask back, why do we show college coaching stints in career history when we don't show college playing stints in the career history? In fairness, college stints are shown separately. While it may not be the case in the United States, being a member of a national team holds prestige in large part of the world so why aren't national team stints shown similary? Alvaldi (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

For coaches, they are being paid professionally at the college level (i.e. they can make a living off of it), so it's part of their "professional" career history, if that makes sense. If it meets WP:DUE coverage for a given country, then it could make sense on a per-country basis. —Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Steve Kerr was not paid handsomely by USA Basketball. "they can make a living off of it" has never been one of the criteria we use in listing teams, both as a player or as a coach, He either played for/coached them or not. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It was more a response to the college coaching listing question As a coach, it's part of their professional career. In fact, college playing career is shown too, albeit not under "Career history" (see Joe_Young_(basketball) and his two college stints) —Bagumba (talk) 18:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

And national team coaching stints is part of coaches professional career. Quite frankly, I see no consensus in the above discussions to disinclude national team stints. The description field for the coaching stints in the infobox template simply says All the team(s) the person has coached for during their career" but despite that, the discussion starts by turning it around and claim that pro-NT editors must gain a consensus for it to be included. Alvaldi (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I see no consensus in the above discussions to disinclude national team stints. "No consensus" usually means both ways, which would include no consensus to include. So it's glass half-full/half-empty. —Bagumba (talk) 03:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes FWIW, we also show all stints someone has in college, even high school, as a player. Presumably this is also the same with coaching. There's no good reason why we exclude national team stints; every other sport allows for this in their infoboxes.

Now, in cases where people ask for exceptions, I'd ask, what makes it special? So... what makes this special? Howard the Duck (talk) 19:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

For NBA pages, perhaps because it has been historically dominated by US players, it hasn't been "special", but rather the status quo. It seems reflective of sources, perhaps dominated by US press. If people decide that coverage has changed, maybe consensus changes also. Anyways Alvaldi says its already done for coaches outside the NBA, so maybe the status quo is already fine if WP:DUE is already in place. —Bagumba (talk) 03:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

In the 2017 discussion one of the arguments including NT coaching stints was that being a NT coach was not career defining. However, being the USA NT coach seems to garner quite the coverage in major publications, for instance: Bobby Knight, who coached 1984 U.S. Olympic men’s basketball team to gold, dies at 83 (NBC Sports, 2023), Bob Knight's moves with 1984 US Olympic team showed his scouting skills matched his tactical skills (Fox Sports, 2023), Daly left mark on Pistons, Dream Team (ESPN, 2008), USA Basketball announces Golden State Warriors' Steve Kerr as next Olympic men's coach (ESPN, 2021), How an ex-NBA coach and a team of G Leaguers took over USA Basketball (USA Today, 2019), Larry Brown Says He Hasn't 'Gotten Over' Team USA's 2004 Olympic Bronze Medal (Bleacher Report, 2019), No more 'wine soaked' dinners without Gregg Popovich (New York Times, 2023), After years of frustration, Gregg Popovich takes another shot at golden moment (Fox Sports, 2021), Team USA’s New Era Under Steve Kerr: Continuing The Legacy (Forbes, 2024), Where is Mike Krzyzewski? Why former Duke and Olympics legend is not coaching Team USA in Paris (USA Today, 2024), Dream Team experience, success ‘was totally unforgettable’ (The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 2015), Karl will suffer U.S. defeat more than anyone (ESPN, 2002). Alvaldi (talk) 10:41, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Larry Brown led US to bronze in Olympics, but no mention in his Hall of Fame profile. George Karl coached the US in the 2002 World Championship, didn't medal, and no mention in his HOF profile. —Bagumba (talk) 16:44, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

The infobox is a summary of an article. If the article discusses someone coaching a team, it is expected that the team will be listed on the infobox. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:01, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to see player's AUA coaching stints or basketball camps. So an infobox isn't everything. The issue is whether national team stints for NBA coaches is a "key fact" for MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, and whether medals are sufficient, as has been the status quo. —Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Stupid question: If a player did not medal for a national team (which are several orders of magnitude higher than AAU or Drew League competition), it is also not listed on the infobox, right? Basketball doesn't do it like the soccer infobox, which shows progression from under-x teams to the senior ones. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a soccer fan/editor, so I can't speak to how they do it. For the NBA, it needs to be WP:DUE and meet MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Under-X teams would be overkill, arguably even the under-X medals, which a lot of NBA bios have in their ibx too. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The infobox in Cristiano Ronaldo has his Portugal national team appearances from U15 to the senior one. FWIW, I would do what the soccer infobox and cull the awards and even the medals and list those instead.

So yes, AAU teams, overkill. National teams... absolutely not. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe coverage differs regionally, but there is no culture of caps in US basketball coverage, and the mainstream media doesnt cover the junior national team events. Most is from FIBA and USA Basketball, which are not independent sources. —Bagumba (talk) 00:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Though it is usually covered in the media, at least outside the US, if a player has played for a NT, I am not sure that the number of caps for basketball players are as easy to find as they are for football players. I am also not pushing for junior national teams to be included, only the senior team.

For players, my suggestion would be to include just a single line in the "Career information" part similar to the college line.

National team: Spain (1981–1985)

We could also remove the "Representing Spain" field from the medalbox since it would not be needed. Alvaldi (talk) 09:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources indicate that national team stints for NBA coaches are indeed a "key fact". Alvaldi (talk) 09:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Their Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame profile doesn't mention alot of things found in their Wikipedia infobox. Alvaldi (talk) 23:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. It's a data point, not an end-all to the discussion. —Bagumba (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Steve Kerr was not paid handsomely by USA Basketball: Perhaps. Just dont see Woj or Shams announcing their signings or terms. —Bagumba (talk) 03:20, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I know you'd say we don't base what goes in the infobox by what Woj announces but yes, we don't base what goes in the infobox by what Woj announces. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Was commenting only on your previous comment on his pay. But sure. —Bagumba (talk) 16:46, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Which was a reply on your statement if coaches are being paid professionally... Howard the Duck (talk) 17:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Which was only a reponse about college coaching stints, not implying that national teams didn't pay something. —Bagumba (talk) 17:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't remember discussing about college coaching stints, but those mid-major teams may not pay well unlike the bluebloods. L Howard the Duck (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much all college head coaching jobs pay enough to at least support a person. I went to a division III school (lowest NCAA level) and the basketball coach didn't need to hold a second job to live, though he certainly did not make John Calipari money. Rikster2 (talk) 15:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I no doubt that what you said is true. National team coaches are different: some are concurrently with a club team, some are full-time. Obviously, for senior USA teams, this is done concurrently while coaching an NBA team because in the old days, NBA players can literally sleepwalk their walk into a game and win by 50. Other national teams prefer a full-time coach, more so recently when FIBA introduced FIFA-style windows in qualifying tournaments.

Again, I doubt Steve Kerr is not being paid handsomely by USA Basketball. I don't think he is doing this out civic duty or out of the goodness of his heart, more so that there's a risk that he'd do a Larry Brown, not win the gold, and be humiliated in the Olympics. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Hoops Rumors site reliable?

Do people consider https://www.hoopsrumors.com reliable? It's used on Talen Horton-Tucker for his supposed signing of an Exhibit 10 contract, a murky area that has been discussed before. The source itself relies on RealGM.com to declare this "official".[2] Often, teams don't realeae anything on Exhibit 10s until training camp, if they even say anything at all. —Bagumba (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

doesn’t matter if hoops rumors is reliable or not, we use official announcements or addition to the official roster. The only cases we have made exceptions have been high profile transactions that have been reported everywhere (like LeBron James) where it would look silly for Wikipedia not to reflect it. Horton-Tucker is not in that category of signing to force the issue. However, he is shown on the Bulls official roster page (albeit with a FA marker). Rikster2 (talk) 12:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Listing someone new on your roster but marking them with FA is unclear what it actually means, so I'd semi-discount it. —Bagumba (talk) 10:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

NBA Sportsmanship Award vote to exclude on WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS?

NBA Sportsmanship Award was only included on WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS because it reflected existing practice at the time, not because of any explicit discussion. Meanwhile, the following are not included (not because of explicit consensus): NBA Teammate of the Year, Clutch Player of the Year, NBA Hustle Award, NBA Citizenship Award, NBA Social Justice Champion Award, and NBA Community Assist Award.

I am in favor of either excluding Sportsmanship Award or including all of the above. Shall we do a vote? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

It was brought up in 2012 at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 20 § Career highlights order. At that point, I was only presenting how to organize what was already conssitently being done, and Sportsmanship was in bios but something like J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award was not. FWIW, basketball-reference.com displays it on top of players' profiles.[3] I'm neutral on what to do with it. Willing to grandfather that, but see no compelling reason to add the newer ones (yet).—Bagumba (talk) 09:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

All of those should be excluded from the infobox IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 15:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm w/Rikster2 on this. SportsGuy789 (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that if the player doesn't have many highlights then it is fine to include. However if he has many highlights (20+ maybe?) then this is definitely not one of the highlights of his career and should not be included. The NBA Community Assist Award might be one of George Hill's top career highlights, but not Stephen Curry's.

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that we should rate the awards by classes, for instance A, B, C etc. Top-tier league championships and MVP's should be A class while these mentioned above would be much lower. Then put a soft cap on highlights. If a player has more than a certain amount of total highlights, then we drop the lower class awards from the highlights section (they can be included under a more detailed Awards and honors section at the bottom of the article). Alvaldi (talk) 11:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I like the idea of highlight tiers but I have never liked the idea of including a given highlight in some cases but not others. In my opinion that just creates confusion with non-hardcore editors. If, for example, college all-conference is notable, then it should be included in all the cases where players won these awards. Players like LeBron or Wilt Chamberlain or Larry Bird will always have longer highlight lists than others. But the idea of (again an example) the NBA sportsmanship award showing up in some players’ infoboxes but not others leaves me cold. Just have the discipline to exclude it and only mention it on the prose Rikster2 (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there's too many drive-by editors that will see awards in some bios and add it to the missing ones. In a crowd-sourced environment, it just reduces churn to go with all or nothing. —Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of List of NBA career ejections leaders for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of NBA career ejections leaders is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of NBA career ejections leaders until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Left guide (talk) 22:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Notice of reliable sources noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Fadeaway World. Thank you. Left guide (talk) 11:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: Archived at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 451 § Fadeaway World —Bagumba (talk) 07:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

NBA champion in infobox: Two-way players and Avery Bradley

When we last discussed "NBA champion" for infoboxes in 2017, two-way players weren't a thing yet. Back then, we said anyone on the playoff roster is a champion. So Kevon Looney, who was inactive throughout the 2017 playoffs, had "NBA champion" listed.

The de facto practice seems to be that 2-way players have been listed as "NBA champion" also. Technically, they aren't eligible for the playoffs. Assuming that is OK, it was brought up at Talk:Avery Bradley § Lakers 2020 Championship that Avery Bradley was still on the Lakers' roster in 2020, though he opted out of the bubble. The claim is that he was still on the roster, though inactive. Should he have "NBA champion" listed? —Bagumba (talk) 06:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Nic Barlage for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Nic Barlage is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nic Barlage until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Left guide (talk) 04:43, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

History at NBA team pages

Serious cleanup is needed in history sections of NBA teams as one editor has been a lot of stuff that has a number of issues (particularly grammar and sources). I am not able to make regular edits so help from active editors would be appreciated. – sbaio 19:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio: Can you maybe indicate the top 3–5 that you believe need the most help? If so, I'll see what I can do, thanks. Left guide (talk) 04:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: I cannot look through all pages at this moment, but I think that top five would probably be Atlanta Hawks, Boston Celtics, Golden State Warriors, New Orleans Pelicans and San Antonio Spurs. And that is after taking a quick look at editing history of MacaroniDrown (talk · contribs) who has been making these changes. – sbaio 15:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Notice of reliable sources noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Sports Publishing/Skyhorse and Triumph Books. Thank you. Left guide (talk) 23:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Basketball Reference links

FYI: I went to Wikidata to add rookie Adem Bona's BR link (was missing from his infobox), and found there was already a BR entry there, but to a different "International Stats", which was just a blank page.[4] Maybe because he played in Turkey before college? I then found that Kobe also has an "international" page, but his shows Olympic stats.[5]. —Bagumba (talk) 04:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

There are two basketball-reference links for Cui Yongxi, as well: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cuiyo01w.html and https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cuiyo01.html. Only the latter has NBA stats. Are the BR links in the infobox controlled in Wikidata these days? Zagalejo (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

NBA Academy bios

Do NBA Academy players get the talk page tag of this project. I just created Oscar Goodman (basketball) and am not sure whether it is premature to tag him here.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd say no, and draw the line at G League players, who at least include players drafted by NBA teams, on two-way contracts, or assigned from the NBA. I don't think we should make the scope any player slightly related to the core NBA, like how older WNBA players were tagged under NBA proj.—Bagumba (talk) 18:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

This project excludes WNBA?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I dont see Talk:Caitlin Clark tagged. —Bagumba (talk) 03:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger and Bagumba: There's a WNBA task force that's subsidiary to this NBA project at WP:WNBA which is tagged as allegedly inactive. Not sure if/how much that's a factor here. Left guide (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't recall much WNBA discussion here. Including WNBA within the NBA's WP:PROJSCOPE just bloats page alert lists, unless there is consensus to include it. —Bagumba (talk) 10:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Where else can people go to get WNBA editorial issues addressed. Someone pinged my talk page and I referred them here and then they went silent on the issue. Where should I send them.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger: Where else can people go to get WNBA editorial issues addressed. WT:WNBA would be the place for that. The very last sentence of WP:WikiProject says:

Any "inactive" WikiProject can be revived if the project has a "group" of new editors that would make the project an active place for discussions related to improvement of pages within the project's scope.

So that means two editors (in this case you and the someone who pinged your talk page) expressing interest in coordinating together in the same topic area should be sufficient to change the status of WP:WNBA to {{WikiProject status/Semi-active}}. Left guide (talk) 03:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger @Left guide: Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Women's basketball is active. In fact, I found Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive_4#WNBA from 2013, where that was the suggestion in lieu of WP:NBA. —Bagumba (talk) 10:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Tim Duncan nominated for FAR

I have nominated Tim Duncan for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. ScarletViolet tc 14:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Should this discussion be listed at Wikipedia:Featured article review#Featured_article_reviews? Zagalejo (talk) 22:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Added now here. @ScarletViolet: Courtesy notification. —Bagumba (talk) 09:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Sporting News awards sources

Does anyone have access to old Sporting News issues or compilations? At Jamaal Wilkes, there's been the unsourced claim (almost from Day 1):

The Sporting News named Wilkes to its NBA All-Pro Second Team three years.

I have only found a source for 1981's All-Pro teams.[6] Somewhat suprisingly, I find that longtime unsourced content that initially seems made up often pans out. Interesting that Sporting News used to have those annual NBA guides, but never listed their own awards in them.—Bagumba (talk) 05:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

List of teams and map added to basketball season pages

An editor has started adding sections for teams and map of teams in NBA and other basketball season pages (for example, 1985–86 NBA season#Teams and 1985–86 NBA season#Map of teams). There is no need to repeat the same information when there are standings tables and the number of teams is usually consistent. That is just a useless decoration. – sbaio 14:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The map is useful.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Other basketball leagues do this, but those have promotion and relegation, so there are always changes from the previous season. One country that has a similar closed system is Australia, and in articles there is a separate teams section, e.g. 2024 NRL season#Teams. Having a closed system is not a reason on why US sports season articles not do this, as sports season articles do it.

One sorta similar thing are candidates sections in elections articles, you'd see the same list anyway at another part of the article albeit in a usually different order. I'd rather keep this article and just have the division, coaches and arenas column, and remove the capacity column, and keep colors to a minimum.

The map is pretty useful, and shows a snapshot in that moment in time how the divisions actually looked like, something a table can't do.

Again, these are US articles, and I don't expect them to follow how the rest of the world does. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Frontsfan2005: should be seeking a consensus at respective sports WikiProjects, before making such additions to season pages. GoodDay (talk) 17:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio: see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 50#Recent maps added to MLB season articles for the decision to possibly remove maps from MLB season articles. however ultimately kept up on season pages for MLB, NFL and MLS etc. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Player nationalities in NBA draft articles

I'm looking to form a consensus on which nationality to list in NBA draft articles. Currently they list the final or current nationality of the player and not their accurate nationality from when then they were accurately drafted. For example, the 1996 NBA draft lists Jeff Nordgaard as Polish and Joe Vogel as Lebanese even though neither would actually become citizens and represent these nations until years later. Personally, I believe that the player should be listed at their nationality at the time of draft and particularly for American players as they were not considered international applicants at the time and could be confused as having been an international applicant. We can add footnotes explaining that the player later represented X country internationally. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There was a somewhat recent discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 47 § Player lists and flags Media coverage of "international" players seemed to gain traction after the Dream Team and NBA's push to position itself as a global league. Most sources talk about where a player was born outside of the U.S. (exception: you were American born on an overseas military base, which doesn't happen much anymore). Later nationalities through naturalization aren't really tracked by sources; it seems to be WP:UNDUE trivia that some editors throw in.—Bagumba (talk) 17:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be more of an issue with older Drafts (or at least ones that happened before Wikipedia was created) where editors were probably going off FIBA listings at the time. I have switched 2 players back to the US from their listed nation (Darnell Mee became an Australian citizen 13 years after the 1993 NBA draft & Ron Ellis became a Belgian citizen at best 8 years after the 1992 NBA draft). It just seems a bit inaccurate to list the player as a later nationality, rather than the current one. Best, GPL93 (talk) 17:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, unless sources start talking about drafts w.r.t to naturalized citizens it later produced, later nationalities are irrelvant. —Bagumba (talk) 17:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Really the only high-level players I can think of the top of my head are Shawn Bradley who I don't think started playing for Germany until the 2000's and Matisse Thybulle, who was originally listed on Wikipedia at the 2019 NBA draft as an American but was a confirmed a dual US/Australian citizen (RS ref HERE) then re-listed as just Australian a year later (and after a full season in the NBA) when he finally declared for FIBA in order to be part of the Olympic qualifying team. Most are guys where there is a clear line from playing in the US to the overseas country where they made their career. Best, GPL93 (talk) 17:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the system of listing nationalities at the time of drafting and including a note about later representation. For players with dual nationality when selected, whichever country they represent at a senior level should be used. CalDoesIt (talk) 17:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There's Jordan Clarkson (born in U.S., later played for Phillipines). Going back, sources talk about drafted players born outside of the U.S. So we try to capture that in the tables. But an American playing for a different national team is not something that's covered w.r.t a specific draft, so that tidbit seems trivial. These additions always remind me of a race draft. —Bagumba (talk) 16:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

American-born, Chinese-descent Kyle Anderson of that same draft class is a similar example. With Clarkson, it is unclear whether he held a Filipino passport at the time of the draft (sources primarily stating that he received it "after the age of 16") so I would suggest listing him as American but with a note explaining his later Filipino involvement. His own article says that he is on the team as a naturalized player. Presently in the 2014 NBA draft article, both nationalities are listed for him: one country he never played for and one country where he likely did not have citizenship at the time. CalDoesIt (talk) 15:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree that draft articles should show citizenship as of the time of the draft. I would also suggest this should extend to other info like names and positions so this stuff doesn’t constantly morph. Draft night is a point in time. Rikster2 (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of names, I have been dealing with situations like Akkem→Hakeem Olajuwon and Lew Alcindor→Kareem Abdul-Jabbar since 2016. Good thing that certain editors look at some of the pages from time to time so I do not have to come back there often. – sbaio 15:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Gui Santos, input needed

There are two articles for the same player (Gui Santos and Gui Carvalho) that need to be merged. Could folks chime in at Talk:Gui Carvalho#Merge proposal to help move it along? It’s been sitting out there for a month. Thanks! Rikster2 (talk) 15:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Brooklyn Nets location... again

Two discussions were started about location of the Brooklyn Nets – Talk:National Basketball Association#Correct location for Brooklyn Nets and New York Knicks and Talk:Brooklyn Nets#Location. We have been through this many times in the past, but certain editors (old or new) like to come and question longstanding consensus. Your opinions are welcome in any of the new discussions. – sbaio 15:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio, new editors don't know about previous discussions and consensus, which is why the same question arose again. For example, @Oknazevad, pointed out that there was a previous discussion at Talk:Brooklyn_Nets/Archive_1#Home_city_location_for_the_Brooklyn_Nets. How would I or any other editor have known about the existence of this archived discussion? Assadzadeh (talk) 19:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Without opining on the merits, from a procedural standpoint, fragmented discussions are unhelpful in forming consensus. Since this issue appears to affect multiple related articles (at least NBA and Brooklyn Nets), it's best to have a single discussion in a centralized location such as here, and ping everyone involved, which I will do momentarily. Left guide (talk) 21:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Pinging everyone involved in the article talk page discussions who hasn't yet participated here @Alielmi1207, Banan14kab, Bagumba, and Oknazevad:. Left guide (talk) 21:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

We should stick to the already open discussion at Talk:National Basketball Association instead of opening a third one. oknazevad (talk) 01:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Thoughts? It did seem like the bulk of the discussion was there. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

That’s fine. I did not remember even posting about it before in all honesty. We all edit a ton so I don’t know off the top do my head, but will avoid it in the future. Banan14kab (talk) 15:07, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

List of career wins leaders

I wanted to get the thoughts of other editors here. Should there be an Article on a list of all-time leaders in career wins in both the regular season and playoffs or is that too cherry-picked? Stats for reference: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/most-career-wins-by-an-nba-player-in-regular-season-and-playoff Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 04:18, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

It would need to meet WP:LISTN. Statmuse is not reliable per WP:NBASOURCES, but databases are anyways are not used to establish notability. —Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

This became relevant as this is apparently one of those records thay Lebron will inevitably break soon. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:28, 29 November 2024 (UTC)