Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 4

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Add Faith Hill/Remove Bananarama and Lesley Gore

PASSED

Nomination opened in October 2023. Last vote two weeks ago. Five participants. Removal of Bananarama 4-0, removal of Lesley Gore 4-1, adding Faith Hill 3-0. Discussion was opened before 20:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC), so Faith Hill may pass with only 3 support votes. --Makkool (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

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Since Country Music is right at quota (35/35) I am not sure if I should rock the boat. From Country, I am not sure if she should replace anyone. Here are some comparisons

Faith Hill (discography) 5 Grammys, 6 multiplatinum albums, 14 #1 singles as lead and 3 more as featured (mostly in country category none in hot 100, but 1 #2). N.B., neither Shania Twain nor Carrie Underwood has 6 multiplatinum albums.

Hill dominates many country singer VAs in terms of massive album successes and is comparable to all of the following in terms of vitality, but does not really dominate any of them.

Emmylou Harris (albums discography, singles discography) 13 Grammys, 0 multiplatinum albums, 12 #1 singles as lead and 3 more as collaborative/featured

Loretta Lynn (albums discography, singles discography, Conway Twitty and Loretta Lynn discography) 3 Grammys, 0 multiplatinum albums, 16 #1 singles as lead and 3 more as collaborative/featured

Tammy Wynette (albums discography, singles discography, George Jones and Tammy Wynette discography) 2 Grammys, 0 multiplatinum albums, 20 #1 singles as lead and 4 with George Jones

Alison Krauss (discography) 27 Grammys, 3 multiplatinum albums, 0 #1 singles as lead and 1 as featured

Hill dominates the following by the numbers, but I am not an afficionado of Country music and she may not be a great replacement because of their inspirational roles:

Patsy Cline (discography) (who died at age 30) 0 Grammys, 0 multiplatinum albums, 2 #1 singles as lead

Kitty Wells (albums discography, singles discography) a Grammy lifetime achievement, 0 multiplatinum albums, 2 #1 singles as lead and 1 more as collaborative

Therefore, I am proposing that she be added as two groups in another category of music are removed.

Bananarama (discography) 0 Grammys, 0 multiplatinum albums, 1 #1 single as lead and 3 more as featured in large ensembles (they are significant for a record that will surely be broken. They have the most charted songs by a female group. However, the modern era of digital sales allows hot groups to chart non-single released songs. Thus, that record could easily fall to a newer group like Blackpink or someone else). Without that record, they are not really that vital a group.

Lesley Gore (discography) 0 Grammys, 0 multiplatinum albums, 1 #1 single (which is actually comparable to Hill who has mostly country singles hits). I am not sure how much slack to give for her music composition work.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I am open to discussion on who to remove, but she is on par with many VAs.

Support

as nom -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Support removals per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Support swap per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 02:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Support swapping both Bananarama and Gore for Hill. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:40, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose removal of Lesley Gore - Gore had multiple songs on Billboard 40 by age 17 (and one certified Gold record) and was nominated for an Academy Award and Grammy Award for her music, and it seems according to the article she was widely lauded (National Public Radio named Lesley Gore Sings of Mixed-Up Hearts, Gore's second album, as forebearer of one of the top 150 albums recorded by women. The album missed the official list (1964–present) because it was released in 1963. "She is a forebearer for her assertion of feminine power in pop, and her validation of a female perspective." No, she never went platinum, but I don't think not going platinum is a good enough reason to remove her. Jaguarnik (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

User:Jaguarnik, do you support any of the rest of this nomination?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:47, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
P.S. I am not saying Gore is not important. I am saying she is in a section that is overquota (96/90) and arguably one of the 6 least vital in that section. Multiple billboard top 40 is not a very high level of accomplishment to be pointing to for VA. Is your oppose just to say she is more important than Bananarama?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Marvin Miller (or John Montgomery Ward), add Dusty Baker

PARTLY PASSED

Nomination opened in November 2023. Last vote 7 days ago. Five participants. Removal of Miller 1-2, removal of Ward 3-0, adding Baker 1-3. Discussion was opened before 20:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC), so removing Ward may pass with only 3 support votes. --Makkool (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

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We have two representatives of trade unionism in baseball: Miller and Ward. I propose we remove one of them and add Dusty Baker. I heard a statistic that 3% of MLB games ever played (since 1876!) featured Dusty as a player, coach and manager. Baseball is incredibly light on managers (its more focused on owners, commissioners and pioneers); I don’t believe there’s anybody who managed a game in the past 50 years on the list. p b p 16:05, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

p b p 16:05, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Is it Miller that you want to remove or Ward? SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Either, it seems. starship .paint (RUN) 06:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Support removing Ward, oppose removing Miller. Ward might be the one who founded the first players union, but Miller is the one who made the MLBPA the strongest union in the US. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:13, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Support removing Ward to accommodate a manager, oppose removing Miller per SailorGardevoir. starship .paint (RUN) 06:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose add. If we are going to add a modern manager, it should still be someone with multiple championships like Tony La Russa (3 ch'ips). Although Baker had a better playing career, if we are going to give credit for a playing career, go with Joe Torre (4 ch'ips).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose add of Dusty Baker. I do agree we should swap one of these guys with a manager but I think Joe Torre is a way better candidate since he performs better than Baker in almost every statistic: on the manager side, more career wins, pennants, World Series; on the player side, 9x All-Star compared to Baker's 2; on the Wikipedia side, 16 interwikis versus 7. Would also support Casey Stengel, Tony La Russa, or even Bruce Bochy over Dusty Baker. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Yes Torre over the others except maybe Stengel with 9 ch'ips. Definitely support Torre and Stengel.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:23, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose adding Baker per above. starship .paint (RUN) 06:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Ed Asner/Remove Leslie Nielsen

PARTLY PASSED

Nomination opened in November 2023. Last vote 15 days ago. Five participants. Adding Asner 3-0, removing Nielsen 1-3. Discussion was opened before 20:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC), so Asner may pass with only 3 support votes. --Makkool (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

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As the most honored male performer in the history of the Primetime Emmy Awards, his omission is glaring. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Also an activist and former Screen Actors Guild president.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

He has 75 interwikis.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

2x Lead Actor in a Drama Series (1978 & 1980)

3x Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series (1971, 1972 & 1975)

2x Guest Actor in a Drama Series (1976 & 1977)

Just clarifying here 4 in drama and 3 in comedy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

As nom -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Support addition per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 02:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Support addition, oppose removal. I know we really got to cut down the entertainers page, but while you make a good point regarding Asner, I don’t think Nielsen is the person we should be cutting. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose removing Nielsen. Solid straight-leading man career before the comedy career. Starred in Forbidden Planet. Hyperbolick (talk) 16:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose removal. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

Forgive me if it seems I am badgering the voters, which does not seem to be something that we do here. Hey guys (especially the voters User:Rreagan007 and User:Hyperbolick), I could use a bit of discussion as to why a 7-time Emmy winner is not respected in that proportion. Forgive my basketball analogy, but it seems like he may be viewed like a Robert Horry would be viewed in a nomination. Do people view the 5 non-guest less impressively because they were the same character or are people here all to young to want to way in or am I missing something? Can anyone enlighten me.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
They dislike the removal part. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
User:QuicoleJR, I see 7 Emmys and 75 interwikis and think this guy must be vital. What gives?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Do people discount Emmys from when there were only 3 networks. In my mind, back then you had to win auditions to be in the game. Now, if you can't win an audition, you can film yourself with your cellphone and post it online if you can't get a streaming network to post it for you. I think it was as difficult to rise above the field to win an audition as it is to rise above the field to get the attention among dozens of platforms.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
From what I can tell, their opposes are more about not removing Nielsen than not adding Asner. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
There are no opposes to Asner, but by opposing removal and not commenting on the add, they are commenting on the add (vocally abstaining).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:13, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Maria Zakharova

PASSED

Nomination opened in November 2023. Last vote 11 days ago. Removed 6-2. --Makkool (talk) 12:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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Natalia Poklonskaya was somewhat notable in Russia and Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea, but she played a minor role in the event and her highest official post was the regional (Crimean) prosecutor general. Maria Zakharova is the press-chief for Russian Ministry of foreign affairs. Not clear why ~~they were~~ she was included into the list. Instead, I propose to add Viktor Yushchenko, since he is the only Ukrainian president who is missing from the list, and since he was the leader of the Orange Revolution which was one of a few defining moments in modern Ukrainian history. Kammerer55 (talk) 03:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so that not to waste everyone's time, I went ahead and swapped Natalia Poklonskaya with Viktor Yushchenko, since it now seems obvious to me. However, since there was opposition for removal of Maria, maybe someone else can also comment regarding her. I think we can just remove her, but if people want to replace her with someone else, it can be Sergey Lavrov (her boss — he is a very prominent minister for many years) or Valentina Matviyenko (she is a chairwoman of Russian Parliament's Upper House for many years). Or, to add more diversity country-wise, it can be also Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya — she is a Belarusian opposition leader, who, as many believe, defeated Lukashenko in presidential elections, and now leads the oppositional government against him from abroad. --Kammerer55 (talk) 09:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

as nom. --Kammerer55 (talk) 03:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Support removal of Putinist figurehead Maria Zakharova. Not seeing what makes her vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
Remove Maria Zakharova, she doesn't even reach the level of Kremlin Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov, who isn't vital at the moment. starship .paint (RUN) 04:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Support removal of Maria Zakharova. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

The removal of Maria, since she was chosen as one of BBC's 100 Women.--RekishiEJ (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Are you talking about this list: 100 Women (BBC)? It does not seem that this is enough for VA5, since the list introduces a new batch of women every year (so now there are >1000 women in it since 2013) and is limited to only contemporary women. There are even many list members without a Wikipedia page, and most of them are not in VA5. In particular, there are many more Russian and Ukrainian women in the BBC's list, but it does not seem all of them are as notable as other people currently in VA5. Kammerer55 (talk) 18:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose, she has been one of the few public faces of Russia for a long time now (including several notable events/periods). Aszx5000 (talk) 20:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

HOLD ON A SECOND @Kammerer55:. It seems like you proposed a swap and then after no one supported it during the first 3 days and 6 hours you went ahead and decided it would obviously obtain consensus. That does not seem right to me.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have started a new discussion below regarding the performed swap and notified everyone in this thread. #Affirmation of swap for Natalia Poklonskaya with Viktor Yushchenko. So this is ready for closure already. starship .paint (RUN) 01:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove American political firsts

Discuss

I would like to broadly discuss this set of nominees that are all female politicians. Given the long history of the limitations for non-white males in politics that has only recently waned, is it fair to single out all of these nominees. This nomination is reflective of the WP bias, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

(1) This set of nominees were all raised in a section above, #Firsts. (2) Is it a WP bias or a reality bias? How much does equity come into play when considering vitality? I did not nominate for removal Hillary Clinton

5 or Nancy Pelosi

5 for their accomplishments, can we really say that the below women are on par with these two in terms of vitality? starship .paint (RUN) 08:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm comfortable saying Kamala is. I also think that having just Hillary and Pelosi compared to 39 men is a little too far. Furthermore, I think all seven American women currently listed as post-WWII politicians are easily more notable than half the American activists and most of the American jurists. Why is it that American politicians and cities get targeted but American activists are let be? p b p 08:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, Purplebackpack89, I can tell you that I targeted these because you raised them in the section above, #Firsts, which brought them to my attention. I haven't paid any attention to American activists, because, well, many things call for my attention, including a bunch of closures. If you want to take a hatchet to activists, go right ahead... starship .paint (RUN) 08:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The question I was asking above was if Ferraro et. al. were as vital as John Kerry and Hubert Humphrey and some of the other people we were discussing removing. I supporting retention of Kerry and many of the other recent men nominated, but in a lot of cases, I was outvoted. p b p 13:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove Kamala Harris 5

NOT REMOVED

Nomination opened over 14 days ago. Last vote 7 days ago. 3-4 --Makkool (talk) 18:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support

WP:RECENTISM, an unpopular Vice President who has not done much of note, effectively a diversity hire. Not on the level of Dick Cheney 5 or Henry Kissinger 5. starship .paint (RUN) 03:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
NGL, it kind of bothers me that those two fellas are barometers for vitality. Is the only way to be vital to blow up a bunch of kids in Vietnam or the Middle East? p b p 08:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Well, I mentioned them because they were powerful and influential.... starship .paint (RUN) 08:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Agreed with startship.paint. The Blue Rider 13:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Immense recentism. Add when there is enduring impact documented in the article. czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

She is the first 1.female, 2. Asian American, 3. Afro American ever to win a nationally elected position in U.S. Federal government. She will be in the mix to be the first 1., 2., 1./3. President for the next 3 or 4 election cycles in all probability.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
She would be vital if she becomes president, but that may not happen. starship .paint (RUN) 08:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Too many firsts to be removed. p b p 08:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
QuicoleJR (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Per above Totalibe (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

She is certainly significant for achieving many firsts as others have noted. OTOH, it may be too soon to list her. Not going to take sides either way as neither argument seems particularly strong IMO. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Geraldine Ferraro

REMOVED

Removed, 6-1 p b p 17:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support

First female vice-presidential nominee representing a major American political party, but lost in a landslide. Not on the level of Dick Cheney 5 or Henry Kissinger 5. starship .paint (RUN) 03:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Not a particularly important tenure apart from the one high point. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Because of the landslide loss, it is hard to defend her vitality.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Hard to justify when we don't even list Walter Mondale. Totalibe (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

I think being the first is significant enough for this level despite the loss. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Margaret Chase Smith

PASSED

Removed, 5-2 p b p 17:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support

A very long-serving federal legislator, but I am not sure about her overall impact and influence compared to, say, Nancy Pelosi 5. starship .paint (RUN) 03:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:11, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Notable, yes, but vital, why? ~25 interwikis, seems a bit US centric. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. Not sure she had the same impact as others listed. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:29, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

I think her long tenure and anti-McCarthyism, in addition to her status as a first combine to make her vital here. Totalibe (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Per Totalibe. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I'd much rather list her than Ferraro. 33 years in Congress (1940–73), especially notable role in the McCarthy affair in a generally influential tenure. Probably still remove, but worth noting. J 947 ‡ ^edits 21:55, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Michelle Obama 5

FAILED

Nomination opened in early January. Last vote 16 days ago. Not removed 3-3. --Makkool (talk) 12:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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Support

Not convinced that she had a huge impact on the world. starship .paint (RUN) 03:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
[Michelle] Obama describes her four primary initiatives as First Lady: Let's Move!, Reach Higher, Let Girls Learn, and Joining Forces. Only 2 of them notable enough to have an article, do we really consider this as vital? The Blue Rider 13:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Recent fame but article does not discuss enduring impact czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Not the strongest argument ever, but she was a very influential woman and a bestselling author. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
She does seem to supersede most other First Ladies in terms of overall prominence and influence (for example, compare her to her predecessor). Totalibe (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

The role of FLOTUS is not one that seems to be able to support vitality (although I think Dolley Madison may come the closest). Both Eleanor Roosevelt 4 and Hillary Clinton 5 left legacies beyond their role as "POTUS-consort". She has a strong legacy as a first, but I don't know if it is on par with those of Roosevelt and Clinton.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Shirley Chisholm 5

FAILED

NOT removed, 1-4 p b p 20:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

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I'm neutral on this but I think if Michelle and Kamala and Geraldine are being considered for removal, she should be too. p b p 08:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

Strong oppose One of the most significant African American politicians of her time. Her presidential campaign was the first major campaign by an African American candidate. Worth noting that if she was removed along with Harris and Obama, we would have no African American female politicians listed. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
the first black woman to be elected to the United States Congress. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:38, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Per above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:28, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Totalibe (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Law Enforcement Removals

Inspired by Piotrus comment above, I checked WikiBlame to see what else was added along with Ralph "Papa" Thorson and found 5 easy candidates for removal. I also include the 2 other additions for the sake of completeness but I oppose their removal. I don't think we need to fill out sections just for an arbitrary quota's sake so this could free up spots for other overburdened people sections.

Remove Anna Loginova

PASSED

Removed 6-0. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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2 interwikis. Being "Russia's most famous female bodyguard" is not worth a spot on VA5. Article doesn't demonstrate any form of significance or legacy and the article itself was nominated for deletion. Though this didn't pass, if people were concerned about her notability in general, I definitely do not think it is a vital addition.

Support

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Too niche. J 947 ‡ ^edits 11:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Not seeing the vitality, especially since it nearly got deleted. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:57, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

What else do we have for female law enforcement?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:05, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Can you name any famous female law enforcement figures? I just did a quick search and there's no one who meets any of our standards for vitality. I'm all for addressing gender bias but I don't think we need to do that on a section by section basis. Law enforcement is sadly a male-dominated field and women typically weren't allowed to achieve the power or recognition to do the things that many would consider notable. There are other sections that are actually lacking vital women (e.g. there are 58 sports teams and none of them are women even though United States women's national football team is probably just as vital as the rest of the list) and removals like these can free up that quota. At the end of the day, the purpose of this project is to decide what articles we should dedicate our editing resources towards and I don't think an article that was nominated for deletion altogether and was only notable in Russia for basically one news cycle warrants our attention. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Guy Bradley

PASSED

Removed 6-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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1 interwiki. I guess somewhat important in the history of conservationism but his influence seems to be limited to Florida.

Support

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 11:20, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Weak Oppose Conservation biology 5 is now an important topic. You need to show me better conservation bios than this guy before I am ready to delist him.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure. John Muir 4, Rachel Carson 4, Wangari Maathai, Carl Akeley 5, David Attenborough 4, and even Theodore Roosevelt 4 and Jane Goodall 4 are all better examples of conservationists who are already at least VA5. We even have someone in Guy Bradley's niche (the Everglades) who did conservation more notably than him: Marjory Stoneman Douglas 5. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:55, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove James Comey

PASSED

Removed 5-0. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

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43 interwikis but I think this is a clear case of recency bias. If the Hillary Clinton email controversy isn't VA5, he shouldn't be either.

Support

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Support-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Hillary, Don and Bob Mueller all are more vital p b p 20:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Eh we list most other FBI directors. Probably worth a discussion on that alone, not sure where I'd stand. J 947 ‡ ^edits 11:18, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we need any FBI directors other than J. Edgar Hoover and Bob Mueller. p b p 20:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@J947: I've nominated several of the lesser-known directors below p b p 20:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove William Marwood

PASSED

Removed 6-1. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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4 interwikis, hangman who invented the long drop technique of hanging. Interesting bit of trivia but does not make him vital.

Support

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. Hanging isn't listed, for the record (probably should be). J 947 ‡ ^edits 11:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
oh interesting. I'd support that. Aurangzebra (talk) 12:05, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Support swap with hanging. The Blue Rider 13:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Support either removal or swap with hanging. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Support swap with hanging. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Swap with hanging, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

seems to have impacted the world.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
He's a hangman. J 947 ‡ ^edits 11:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Is everyone okay to make this a swap with hanging? The Blue Rider 13:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Charlie Siringo

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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5 interwikis. His article says he was known for being a lawman and a Pinkerton agent. That, in and of itself, does not merit a VA5 spot. He isn't even mentioned within the article text for the Pinkerton (detective agency). Besides, we already have Allan Pinkerton.

Support

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Pat Garrett

FAILED

The Blue Rider

18:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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I do not think he should be removed but I will add him here for the sake of discussion since he was one of the additions. 22 interwikis and a very important figure in the western mythos and general Americana lore. He has been portrayed in 36 movies and TV shows. However, I will concede that in concrete terms, his only claim to fame is killing Billy the Kid.

Support

Oppose

as per my description above but willing to discuss with others Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
he seems to have done a lot of high profile law enforcement.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
per above --Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Kang Sheng

FAILED

Not removed 0-4. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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I also do not think he should be removed but I will add him here for the sake of discussion since he was an addition. 20 interwikis and oversaw intelligence and internal security across all of modern-day China's major events from inception in 1949 until 1975.

Support

Oppose

as per my description above but willing to discuss with others Aurangzebra (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
per nomTonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:13, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
We don't list enough people from China. J 947 ‡ ^edits 20:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Probably the most vital on this list. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Clarence M. Kelley

PASSED

Removed 6-0. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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I don't think we need every FBI director; we don't have every Secretary of State or Attorney General or Speaker of the House or Vice-President. What did this guy accomplish? J. Edgar Hoover is notable but IDK about other FBI directors except for Bob Meueller. Has 7 interwikis which is abominably low even at VA5 p b p 20:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

Nom p b p 20:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Sure. Just a high ranking bureaucrat. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:59, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 06:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discuss

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Remove Louis Freeh

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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See rationale for Kelley above. What did he accomplish? Don't need every FBI director. Just 11 interwikis. p b p 20:09, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

Nom p b p 20:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 06:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discuss

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Remove William S. Sessions

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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See rationale for Kelley above. What did he accomplish? Don't need every FBI director. Just 11 interwikis. p b p 20:09, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

Nom p b p 20:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 06:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discuss

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General discussion

Activists was recently reduced from 1000 > 900, hence it being now over-quota, although I wasn't around for that discussion I would argue 950 would be a much better quota to aim for if the listed articles were re-calibrated, which would also encompass removals from other regions, such as the over-representation of Australia, and removing some obscure European 1900s Nobel Peace Prize winners that are listed here, such as Paul Henri Balluet d'Estournelles de Constant. Totalibe (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Even if the quota is expanded, we've still got to trim the American bloat. The U.S. should probably represent no more than 10% of the total activists. p b p 17:43, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Multiple people from the same company

Comments noted. The Blue Rider

19:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

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Should we have multiple people from the most important companies listed? I just stumbled upon Shoichiro Toyoda and Eiji Toyoda above. Then, I noticed a lot of companies have multiple key personnel listed here. We seem to list at least 4 former Disney executives (Walt Disney, Roy O. Disney, Michael Eisner, and Bob Iger) and a pair from Apple (Steve Jobs and Tim Cook). Is this right?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:36, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I've been wanting to address this issue for some time. I believe that, for a company to warrant multiple executives on the VA5, it needs to be both very large AND have a lengthy existence. At one point, I was trying to figure out the various companies businessmen were associated with; I should probably finish that. It's also worth noting that some companies have people listed as both businessmen and non-businessmen (Steve Jobs as a businessman but Steve Wozniak as an inventor; dads and husbands as businessmen but their wives and daughters as socialites, etc etc). p b p 22:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with multiple people from the same company. For example, the founder of a major company can be listed in some cases (e.g. Walt Disney) as well as executives who have made notable contributions to the company that have reflected some enduring legacy in society (e.g. Michael Eisner with the Disney Renaissance and possibly Bob Iger with his savvy and novel business strategies to develop Disney into a blue-chip media conglomerate). That being said, if you're not the founder of some major company, I believe that there must be some incredibly compelling reason that extends beyond the company to keep a person in. I do not believe people like Roy O. Disney and Tim Cook achieve this.

Another example of this is Gordon Moore and Andrew Grove with Intel. Both of these people are definite VA5s in my opinion: Gordon Moore with his founding of Intel and coining Moore's law and Andrew Grove for his paradigm-shifting innovations to management science. Aurangzebra (talk) 11:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it does not matter what company they are related to, they should stand or fall on their own. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:23, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Camilla Kenyon

Removed 5-0. starship .paint (RUN) 09:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

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We have way too many authors from the U.S. and Canada, and this one seems like a pretty easy removal. Little is known about her life, she never won any awards, she had very little influence, and none of her works even have articles. She also only has one interwiki.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:16, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Henry Allen (journalist)

Last comment 16 days ago. Removed 5-0. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only has two interwikis. Only notable for winning one Pulitzer Prize. This guy has nothing else going for him, and not all Pulitzer winners are vital.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Support --Makkool (talk) 16:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Every time I think VA5 is approaching a decent state, an entry like this shocks me back to my senses. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Per Quicole. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Move every outlaw to criminals

I’m just going to cut to the chase, there are a lot of people who are listed in the rebels section who are much more suited for the criminal section. I’m not talking about those who can fall under either the terrorists or the assassins lists (although we might need to discuss regarding their placements). I’m talking about bushrangers, pirates, even highwaymen; guys who, if they fought against the government at all, it’s solely due to said government trying to stop them from committing more crimes. Also I’m a little bit peeved that only the American outlaws are listed under criminals. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Audrey Tang

Last comment 16 days ago. Removed 4-0. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

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No assertion of lasting impact or top importance in field (computer scientists/programmers). Would be better fit as politician (governmental minister), but would not meet V5 there either. Too early to include. czar 18:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

czar 18:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
feminist🚰 (talk) 04:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 06:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Other Oceanian activists removals

Similar to the aboriginals, there is bloat at Oceanian activists and a lot of them have only a few interwikis. Here are six more removals p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove Peter Lalor

PASSED

Removed 4-1. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only five interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Possibly the most important of this lot, but the event he is known for overshadows him (and is listed; Eureka Rebellion 5). J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Legacy is poorly referenced and half-trivial. 5 interwikis. Weak support for removal. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 14:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Interwikis aside he does very much appear to be a historically significant figure, as demonstrated by a long "legacy" section. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Donald Mackay (anti-drugs campaigner)

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only five interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Getting into genuine trivia levels, I reckon. J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 14:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Kim McKay

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only three interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 14:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove George Augustus Robinson

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only four interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 14:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Captain Thunderbolt

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only four interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 14:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Roman Tmetuchl

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only four interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
(Palauan) Our Palauan politician Thomas Remengesau Jr. 5 is likely more vital, and we don't need both. J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 14:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Move Ned Kelly 5 from activists to criminals

PASSED

Moved 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Guy was an outlaw, not a political reactionary p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

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Remove William Cooper (Aboriginal Australian) 5

FAILED

Not removed 2-3. Makkool (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only five interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

The article states that he was the first to lead a national movement recognised by the Australian Government. That alone makes him vital at this level IMO. Worth noting he was also a prominent opponent of the Holocaust. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Appears to be among the most significant Aboriginal Australian political figures. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above --Makkool (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Bernie Madoff

Bernie Madoff

5 is already listed. The Blue Rider

19:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

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He seems more notable than most of the white collar criminals already listed, if necessary, swap with Shkreli or Kujau. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nom Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove the 9th to 12th Dalai Lamas

Last comment 9 days ago. Removed 6-0. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

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Since they all died very young, they never had the power to do anything. Since you guys largely established that holding a position like the President of the US and the Prime Minister of the UK doesn’t automatically make one vital, I think we should get rid of them. Maybe we can swap them out with the 10th Panchen Lama, but since I’m not sure about his own vitality, I’m just going to stick to advocating the removal of these four Dalai Lamas. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nom.
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
None of these people were alive for long enough to do anything important. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 14:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

@SailorGardevoir: Can you please provide links to the articles on these four people? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:52, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
9th Dalai Lama, 10th Dalai Lama, 11th Dalai Lama, 12th Dalai Lama. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Georg Wilhelm Steller

PASSED

Added 6-0. Makkool (talk) 12:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Important naturalist that first described many species of animals and plants, including two vital: Sea otter 4, Steller's sea cow 5, Steller's sea eagle, Steller's jay, Steller's eider, Steller sea lion, Steller's albatross, Steller's sculpin, etc. It was a pioneering explorer for the remote regions of Siberia and Alaska. The Blue Rider 19:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nominator. The Blue Rider 19:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 20:57, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Vileplume (talk) 01:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Achaemenes

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 12:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only important for starting a dynasty, nothing else is known about him, and whether he even existed is uncertain. How is he vital?

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:29, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Article says: Other than his role as an apical ancestor, nothing is known of his life or actions. starship .paint (RUN) 13:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Would support it as a swap with another more prominent figure of the First Persian Empire. The Blue Rider 13:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Can you think of any? QuicoleJR (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
How about the entire Achaemenid dynasty as a concept? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:24, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Sounds okay to me. The Blue Rider 00:12, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Peter Simon Pallas

PASSED

Added 6-0. Makkool (talk) 12:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Another even more glaring omission. Just like Steller he discovered many species of animals and plants, including one vital: Pallas's cat 5, Pallas's glass lizard, Pallas's viper, Pallas's fish-eagle, Pallas's gull, Pallas's squirrel, etc (see Category:Taxa_named_by_Peter_Simon_Pallas for the full list).

Support

The Blue Rider 19:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 20:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
The category includes species such as the American black bear 5, with over 200 species making up the list. Could potentially be VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Vileplume (talk) 01:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Hamilton Fish

FAILED

Not removed 3-3. Makkool (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Influential during his time, but I am not convinced his impact was long-lasting compared to others on the list.

Support

As nom. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:45, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
If we need to shorten the 1815-1945 American politicians, he's one of the easier removals p b p 23:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

I am impressed by his contributions which seem to have had a global and long-lasting impact.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Very influential during his time, and consistently ranked as one of the best Secretaries of State the country has ever had. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:03, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

What's the rationale for keeping Hamilton Fish but removing John Kerry? p b p 16:57, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe I voted to remove John Kerry, and judging be that article, he should likely be on the list. I would probably support adding him back to the list if you proposed it. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Yevgeny Dragunov and Alexey Sudayev

PASSED

Both removed 6-0. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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These are two relatively minor Soviet firearms designers. Dragunov was most notable for designing the Dragunov Sniper Rifle, while Sudayev was notable for designing the PPS submachine gun. In contrast, these two are currently on the same level as Mikhail Kalashnikov 5, the designer of the iconic AK-47 5. I don't think either of them are even near Kalashnikov's vitality, so I'm proposing they be removed from the list in order to help bring this section closer to quota. (Alternatively, I would also support upgrading Kalashnikov to VA-4). --Grnrchst (talk) 21:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Makes sense. The Blue Rider 22:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Per Grnrchst. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Vileplume (talk) 01:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Valerian Abakovsky

PASSED

Removed 7-0. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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A Soviet engineer most notable for designing the aerowagon, a rail-cart with an air propeller stuck on the front that got half a dozen people (including Abakovsky) killed. It was never used again. This is certainly interesting historical trivia to know about. But vital? I don't think so. --Grnrchst (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nominator. The Blue Rider 22:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
-- Respublik (talk) 17:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
This guy is a forgettable footnote of an inventor who is not even close to being vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Vileplume (talk) 01:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap: remove IJustine 5, add Marques Brownlee

FAILED

Not added 2-2, not removed 2-3. Makkool (talk) 12:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Two YouTubers focused on Consumer electronics 4. One has 7.1 million subscribers, the other has 18.1 million. Both of them have received significant media coverage.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:34, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Support addition Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers,_directors,_producers,_and_screenwriters#Web_entertainers_and_internet_personalities has 19 listings so 20 seems like a round number. Although quotas have been removed, I would guess 20 was the former quota for this area.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:50, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Support removal; weak oppose addition: recentism. czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose remove because it seems that gender bias is rearing its ugly head again. Why is iJustine singled out for removal over someone like Lucas Cruikshank.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:50, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
If we are assessing who is on the bubble in this category, I am not sure she is less vital than Cara Cunningham, Pokimane or Jenna Marbles (but I may be biased because I am her page creator).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I haven't really looked into the other entries on the list, but I merely noticed the inclusion of iJustine but not Marques Brownlee in the list. I would support the removal of Lucas Cruikshank 5 if nominated. I considered the issue of removing a woman for a man when nominating this, but realistically, Brownlee (a black American man) is no less diverse than Ezarik (a white American woman). In fact, we have many more women then black people currently on the list. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:45, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Women are half of the world population, black people (however that is defined) are less than that, along with all other racial groups. Totalibe (talk) 18:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
In a category where 5 of the 19 members are female, I was questioning whether a woman should be removed before a modestly notable man. I am also fairly certain iJustine is more notable than Cara Cunningham. I just don't think she is the one on the bubble if we are at a point where we are swapping for the weakest.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:05, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose removal iJustine was a pioneer during the early age of YouTube, and speaking anecdotally I have heard of her but not Marques Brownlee. In any case, I would focus on reducing actors (which is where more of the glut lies) before Internet personalities here. Totalibe (talk) 18:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose addition, neutral on removal. I can see Internet celebrities quickly becoming similar to our Actor/Actress situation where we start to list anyone who is famous but not necessarily vital. Neutral on removal because she was one of the first influencers to achieve celebrity status but there are plenty of others on this list. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose removal. Per Tony and Totalibe. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:41, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Lucas Cruikshank 5

FAILED

Not removed 6-4. Makkool (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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3.3 million subscribers on YouTube. Not seeing the vitality here.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
If everyone who is notable for a character was listed as vital, we would have no slots left. I doubt Fred is as notable as say Olivia Pope, which got Kerry Washington in the Time 100 as well as 2 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series nominations and she is not listed as vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Failing to see how this creator is vital. Respublik (talk) 07:53, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Aside from the general debate over the amount of pop culture figures that should be listed (with their fleeting and contained influence), if nothing else the character is more vital than the creator known for just this one thing. J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:38, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Not "highest importance" in the subject's field. No assertion in the article's lede section of of the topic's enduring importance or essentialness in its category, i.e., not vital. czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Who is even Fred? The Blue Rider 19:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Subscriber count for his personal channel alone is misleading since he is/was most well-known for the character Fred Figglehorn. Totalibe (talk) 18:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
User:Totalibe. Is he really notable for the role of Fred? Is that what he won his Teen Choice Award for?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
That was his most famous role, especially in 2009/10 when he won it. Iostn (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
One of the pioneers of the earlier days of YouTube. Vileplume (talk) 20:40, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
First channel to hit a million subscribers on Youtube and pioneer in 'influencing' (making a consistent living and achieving celebrity off of social media) which is definitely notable enough to earn him a spot here. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
He was a pretty big deal during early YouTube era. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I am debating about whether I am being a bit too harsh. Maybe I should nominate Washington.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Tom Anderson 5

FAILED

Not removed 3-4. Makkool (talk) 22:02, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Founder of Myspace 5. I'm not convinced he is vital. Perhaps I'm too young, but I'm not convinced Myspace is vital either.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:12, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm convinced this is recentism. There is no detail in his article about legacy impact. "Vital" isn't about whether you heard of it but about whether a space-limited encyclopedia 25 years from now would need to include it. I'm with the nom that I'm not convinced Myspace is vital either but let's start here. czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Just 10 interwikis. Not vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Tom didn't just FOUND MySpace (which, BTW, was Facebook before Facebook), he IS MySpace. He probably is VA5 vital for the whole "Tom from MySpace" phenomenon p b p 20:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
I was also too young to have used MySpace, but it and its founder are undeniably vital. Tom's profile picture was probably one of the most famous on the internet for years. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Strong oppose per above. Vileplume (talk) 01:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per everyone above Aurangzebra (talk) 04:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap David Burliuk with Natalia Goncharova

PASSED

Swapped 4-0. Makkool (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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David Burliuk was responsible for the Russian Futurism, which is minor movement, Natalia was also a Russian Futurist but a much important one. She was influential with her avant-garde art, challenging the current definition of art, gender and social conventions, this led to her works being censured. She also created the more famous rayonism movement. The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nominator. The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:04, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Lisa Su 5

PASSED

Added 4-0.Makkool (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Recognized with a number of awards and accolades, she was named Executive of the Year by EE Times in 2014 and one of the World's Greatest Leaders in 2017 by Fortune. She became the first woman to receive the IEEE Robert Noyce Medal in 2021.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:36, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Oversaw a massive turnaround for AMD 5 during the late 2010s, turning it into the powerhouse company it is today. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:25, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Barbara Mikulski

FAILED

Not added 2-3.Makkool (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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US senator who served for 30 years, with a number of notable firsts among women, and well recognized with awards and honors.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
VA is having a lot of problems with prominent politicians (Presidents, Senators, Supreme Court Justices) being removed as well as small state capitals and other seemingly random declarations of non-vitality. I think this is part of the stability that others have cited as a problem with the project. Most of these bio removals are for people that are more notable and prominent than 90% of all other VA bios. As we find new vital subjects we are compelled to remove others. I continue to believe that we will need a system that allows us to add new subject without whimsically declaring other topics as no longer vital. I still am working toward a proposal that we move to a VA5 size based on article count (0.75%-1% range). That being said, I don't think we should penalize her because others were determined on a seeming whimsical undulation of quota allotment to suddenly not be vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
I’d support your proposal for the V5 size based on article count. Vileplume (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Would much rather list many of the U.S. politicians we removed. J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
We don't even list the longest serving Senator Robert Bryd (51 years, and another 6 as a Representative). We also do not list the longest serving Representative John Dingell (around 60 years). starship .paint (RUN) 06:21, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
We did list Byrd. J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, we did, now we don't. Bryd 42 interwikis, Mikulski 24 interwikis. Dingell, 21 interwikis. starship .paint (RUN) 06:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Per starship. Vileplume (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove George Lincoln Rockwell 5

FAILED

Not removed 1-4. Makkool (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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In the nomination for David Duke 5 and William Luther Pierce above, some expressed support for removing George Lincoln Rockwell

Support

czar 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Brought Neo-Nazism to prominence in America. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
per SailorGardevoir and significant interwikis. starship .paint (RUN) 00:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Per above --Makkool (talk) 12:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
I did not endorse removing him, I only said I would remove him for William Luther Pierce. Although now I think about it The Turner Diaries may be a better pick than Pierce himself. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Manuel Montt 5

PASSED

Added 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Three members of the Montt family served as President of Chile, Manuel for 10 years, and we don't have any of them p b p 17:36, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

p b p 17:36, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Would prefer having the article on the Montt family, but since even the Spanish version is just a list, sure. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:53, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Mark Shuttleworth

PASSED

Removed 4-0.Makkool (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Founder of Canonical (company), a company which primarily provides commercial support for Ubuntu, an open-source Linux distribution. We list neither Bob Young (businessman) nor Marc Ewing, the co-founders of Red Hat, a much larger company which, similarly to Canonical, provides commercial support for open-source software. I don't see why we should list Shuttleworth.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:55, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:11, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. Ubuntu is far bigger than Canonical. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:33, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Morris Chang 5

PASSED

Added 4-0.Makkool (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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The founder of TSMC 5, the world's first dedicated semiconductor foundry, is also credited as the person who established the semiconductor and electronics industry in Taiwan.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Weakly support, this is perhaps Taiwans' most important industry. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:08, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Norberto Odebrecht

PASSED

Removed 7-0.Makkool (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Six interwikis, 20 daily average page views last year. Founder of Odebrecht, a company we don't list. What is he doing here?

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Vileplume (talk) 01:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Gizza (talk) 02:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Rudolf Dassler

PASSED

Added 7-0.Makkool (talk) 20:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Founder of Puma (brand). Per the article: Under his direction, Puma remained a small provincial company. Sounds like he wasn't that important.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:24, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Not nearly as important as his son. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
It seems like he should be swapped with his son, Armin Dassler, who made the company successful, but the company is small-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Puma is no longer V5, further justifying his lack of vitality. Vileplume (talk) 01:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Terry Gilliam and/or Eric Idle

FAILED

Not removed 1-3. Makkool (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Above I took my first stab at trimming the Monty Python individual listings (Michael Palin and Terry Jones). I don't really know these guys that well but User:Presidentman mentioned that these two may be better removal candidated than Palin.

Support

Both as nominator. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose removing Terry Gilliam. His work is far greater than his time with the pythons. His filmography, from Brazil to 12 Monkeys to Fear and Loathing, is iconic. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Keep Gilliam, he could be moved to directors though --Makkool (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose both (although Gilliam should definitely be moved to directors). A lot of Pythons’ songs were written by him, including “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life”. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Aboriginal activists

Activists is over quota. There are 31 activists listed under Oceania (the result of a zealous Australian VA editor we had a few years ago), meaning we’ve got to do for Oceanian activists what we did for Oceanian military and American activists: cut the bloat. (For reference; we thought 150 Usonian activists too many; an equivalent number to 31 Oceanian activists would be 300+ Usonians) Of the 31 activists, 18 are Aborigines. Of those 18, almost all of them have five or fewer interwikis, meaning they are almost unknown outside the English-speaking world. I am proposing to remove 13 of them and keep five Eddie Mabo (12 interwikis), Douglas Nicholls (5 interwikis), Fanny Cochrane Smith (13 interwikis), Truganini (24 interwikis) and Yagan (21 interwikis)

I personally think interwikis is a poor way to measure a person's significance. Australia is an English-speaking nation, so it makes sense that the English Wikipedia will have broader coverage of a movement there. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@Presidentman: The USA is also an English-speaking nation, and I seriously doubt any American with that few interwikis would get kept. We removed American politicians and activists with far fewer. If an article doesn't have very many interwikis, it probably means that they aren't well-known outside of their home country. And could you address what I said about bloat? p b p 18:03, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with what you said about bloat. I just think using interwikis as your sole determination for deciding which articles to suggest removing isn't helpful for those unfamiliar with the topics. Individual analyses are more helpful (to me, at least) when deciding whether to support a proposal. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 18:36, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Aside from the point about interwikis, "Rebels, revolutionaries and activists" already includes many people known as outlaws, and several of the people listed under "early modern" were pirates. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with removing the excess number of Aboriginal Australian activists but disagree with using interwikis as a crude measure. Long term pageviews would be better if a crude measure had to be used. There are no Indigenous Australian language versions of Wikipedia. The closest thing is the Noongarpedia project started in 2016. Gizza (talk) 02:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Remove William Ferguson (Australian Aboriginal leader)

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only two interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Near-stub with low pageviews that doesn't assert vitality. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Jimmy Governor

PASSED

Removed 4-1. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Not a single interwiki. Also probably belongs under criminals, not activists p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
No interwikis, regional importance only. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:12, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Long-lasting cultural influence in terms of analysis of race relations. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Jandamarra

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only two interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Molly Craig

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Just one interwiki

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
I don't think this is really the right section for her to be listed anyway (like, I would compare her to Anne Frank 4. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove William Lanne

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only four interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Vincent Lingiari 5

FAILED

Not removed 4-3. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only two interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Just 2 interwikis, not world-changing, regional importance only. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:13, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Looks to be pretty significant for this movement. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
His actions got a major law passed, and he had a sizable influence on Australian pop culture. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:46, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Lauaki Namulauulu Mamoe

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Just one interwiki

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Gladys Nicholls

PASSED

Removed 5-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Not a single interwiki. Her husband might be vital but she’s not p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Very low page views Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:39, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Lowitja O'Donoghue

PASSED

Removed 4-1. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only three interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Looks to be pretty significant for this movement. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Borderline for me. Regional but does seem important. Still, to what degree it is because of modern sysbias - which does counter traditional sysbias... sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Jack Patten

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only two interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Seems relatively lesser-known within the Aboriginal civil rights movement Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Charles Perkins (Aboriginal activist) 5

FAILED

Not removed 1-3. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Only four interwikis

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Iostn (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per Iostn --Makkool (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

A touch more important than the rest? J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I think so. I wonder if it would be better to move this guy to politicians. He seems to have had a long career in government. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:50, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Nicky Winmar

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Not a single interwiki link

Support

p b p 23:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Better classified Aussie rules footballer, but don't think he's one of the 6 most vital. J 947 ‡ ^edits 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Per J947. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Jackson Mac Low

Removed 4-0. starship .paint (RUN) 07:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

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Oversubscribed category and not "highest importance" in the subject's fields. No assertion in the article's lede section of of the topic's enduring importance or essentialness in its category, i.e., not vital.

Support

czar 17:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I do not see how he is vital. None of his works even have articles. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Support --Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Armen Dzhigarkhanyan 5

Added 5-2. starship .paint (RUN) 07:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

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Seems to be a good fit for V5 to reduce Western bias. His article states: "With more than 250 appearances, Dzhigarkhanyan, one of the most renowned film and stage Armenian and Russian actors, appeared in more films than any other Russian actor." --Makkool (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nom --Makkool (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Support now that Ed Begley is removed. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Actors need to be cut IMO (and low pageviews for a recent entertainer, foreign or not). J 947 ‡ ^edits 11:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Agreed with J947. The Blue Rider 13:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Would support a reasonable swap but not a straight add. As mentioned above, we need to cut down on actors. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Could you reconsider as you voted for the removal of Ed Begley, and essentially it would be a swap with this actor? I could also withdraw this proposal and repost it with some other actor to be swapped with. --Makkool (talk) 15:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Support if Ed Begley gets removed, otherwise neutral. Per Aurangzebra. (Abstaining from the Begley discussion just so we can close it already.) SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:59, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
@SailorGardevoir: Ed Begley is no longer on the list. Will you now support this proposal? QuicoleJR (talk) 17:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Sure. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Sabiha Gökçen 5

PASSED

Added 4-0. Makkool (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

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She was the world's first female fighter pilot, aged 23.

Support

As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom – not normally in favour of listing firsts, but she makes the cut. J 947 ‡ ^edits 23:13, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Antonio de Nebrija

PASSED

Added 6-0. Makkool (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

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Because he was the most influential Spanish humanist of his times, and wrote Introductiones latinae, a highly influential textbook about Latin, Gramática de la lengua castellana, the first book on the Spanish grammar, Diccionario latino-español, a Latin-Spanish dictionary and Vocabulario español-latino, a Latin-Spanish one, he absolutely should be added. RekishiEJ (talk) 08:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 02:33, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Per nom. --Makkool (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Seems to have been very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Vileplume (talk) 01:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Nuon Chea and Kang Kek Iew

PASSED

Added 4-0. Makkool (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

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The list of people responsible for crimes against humanity is currently dominanted by Nazi criminals, who take up 75% of the list. To some extent, this is obviously understandable, but it does highlight a representational issue in the list. As many as two million people were murdered in the Cambodian genocide, but none of the convicted criminals responsible for it are on this list. I propose we rectify that. Nuon Chea was widely known as "Brother Number Two", as he was the second-in-command to "Brother Number One" Pol Pot, and as such was one of the single most responsible people for the initiation and oversight of the genocide. Kang Kek Iew, commonly known as "Comrade Duch" was the head of the secret police and director of the infamous S-21 prison, so was one of the principle directors of the genocide on the ground. I think these two should definitely be on the list. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Support, although Nuon Chea should be under politicians instead for the same reason we list Adolf Hitler 3 there. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
Support-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Rat Pack

FAILED

Not added 2-2. Makkool (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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This is an important article that we should note as vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:36, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion moved from society subpage.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:50, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nominator.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:36, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Support --Makkool (talk) 19:11, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

People who appeared together? Not seeing vitality. starship .paint (RUN) 13:20, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
If Sinatra and Martin are VA5 that's enough. p b p 18:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Why though? The Blue Rider 01:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Would you consider nominating this in the People-section? --Makkool (talk) 09:07, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Will do.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:48, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Swap with Joey Bishop 5, otherwise neutral. On the one hand, the Rat Pack are pretty important to history of Las Vegas. At the same time though, it’s not like they were an official group or anything. Plus, with the exception of Peter Lawford, everyone in the intro paragraph is already on here, with everyone but Bishop being much more vital than the pack itself. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
I could support a swap if it makes a difference to most voters. I don't think Bishop belongs.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Michel Onfray 5

FAILED

Not removed 3-2. Makkool (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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Marked as "low importance" in field; no assertion of lasting impact in field. Recentism in oversubscribed category. czar 18:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

czar 18:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
He did get an asteroid named after him, but I don't think that that is enough to make him vital. He does not seem to be important enough to make the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - Don't know if this pick is "recentist", but he does seem reasonably influential and there are many others under contemporary philosophy that seem much more obscure or questionable that I would nominate first (which I might do), such as Eino Kaila, Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe or David Stove. Iostn (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap Gasolin' with Kim Larsen 5

PASSED

Swapped 4-0. Makkool (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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Gasolin' is considered to be "one of the most successful Danish rock bands", but their vocalist Kim Larsen's career was far more influential and long-lived, when the band existed only for about a decade. --Makkool (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

As nom. --Makkool (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Nickelback

FAILED

Not added 2-6. Makkool (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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I know that they get a lot of hate, but I do think they’re big enough to be included.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

They're popular yeah, but can't say that they're vital. Besides, we need less artists rather than more. --Makkool (talk) 12:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Per Makkool. The Blue Rider 13:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Per Makkool. starship .paint (RUN) 14:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Oppose, maybe in 20 years we can see how much of an impact they're having. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Long-term vitality has not yet been established. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Popularity ≠ vitality. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Man, you guys were quick to reject this. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Gaëtan Dugas

FAILED

Not removed 1-3. Makkool (talk) 17:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

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Turned out NOT to be AIDS Patient Zero, per citations in biography lead. Furthermore, I don't really think being a "patient zero" of a disease is VA5 anyway; the disease itself and large outbreaks of the disease are much more vital p b p 17:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

p b p 17:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

He might not actually be patient zero, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s often viewed as one. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
His importance isn't so much that he was thought to be "patient zero" (incidentally that term comes from the study that falsely implied he was that in the first place) but more from the historical/social implications that his scapegoating symbolized, with elements of both homophobia and xenophobia (because he was francophone) in media reporting, see And_the_Band_Played_On#Gaëtan_Dugas_as_"Patient_Zero" Iostn (talk) 19:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
per everyone above. Notability lies in cultural significance not in anything medical. Aurangzebra (talk) 18:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Charlamagne tha God

PASSED

Removed 5-0. Makkool (talk) 10:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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Zero interwikis. His radio show began only in 2010. There are countless people in the hip-hop world who are more vital than he is.

Support

Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
This guy seriously has no interwikis? I thought he’ll have a lot more considering how somewhat notorious he is. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Support --Makkool (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Not cross-cultural. starship .paint (RUN) 13:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Gizza (talk) 02:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Qian Xuesen

PASSED

Added 4-0. EleniXDD※Talk 12:47, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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To 'Inventors and engineers' add Qian Xuesen (published as HS Tsien in the United States). His achievements in both the US (at CalTech) and China are vital to understanding the Space Race between the US, Russia and China. The politics of his return to China keenly demonstrate the adverse climate of McCarthyism. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

TL;DR? In 1943 Frank Malina and Qian Xuesen wrote the first document to use the Jet Propulsion Laboratory name.^[1] He later became known as the "Father of Chinese Rocketry", and was Aviation Week & Space Technology Person of the Year in 2007.^[2] (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Support

As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
J 947 ‡ ^edits 09:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Rodney Bingenheimer

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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Black Flag (band) 5 and Joan Jett 5 are the only California new wave/punk musicians from his era we list, so I don't think a person who helped popularize this scene is vital. I would rather reinstate The Go-Gos, whom we voted to remove months ago. 2 interwikis

Support

Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Support --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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^ Burrows, William E. (1999). This New Ocean: The Story of the First Space Age. Modern Library. p. 111. ISBN 0-375-75485-7.
^ https://aviationweek.com/person-year

[1] Burrows, William E. (1999). This New Ocean: The Story of the First Space Age. Modern Library. p. 111. ISBN 0-375-75485-7.

[2] ttps://aviationweek.com/person-year

[1]

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