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Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

[edit]

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)
P = passes
F = fails 		opposing votes
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0
supporting votes
 – – – – F F F F F F
1 – – – F F F F F F F
2 – – F F F F F F F F
3 – F F F F F F F F F
4 P P P F F F F F F F
5 P P P P F F F F F F
6 P P P P F F F F F F
7 P P P P P F F F F F
8 P P P P P P F F F F
9 P P P P P P F F F F
  1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
    1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
    2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
    3. Have at least 4 participants.
  2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
    1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
    2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
  3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

  • 15 days ago is: 07:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
  • 7 days ago is: 07:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

If you're interested in regularly participating as a closer, the following browser tools may also be helpful:


The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Military personnel, revolutionaries, and activists
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Religious figures
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Writers and journalists

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif  5, Olga Brusnikina  5, and Anastasia Davydova  5

[edit]

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes  5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose, more on the basis of the proposal. Neither current article quality nor interwikis are one of our criteria, though both are good metrics to factor in. I could see both metrics being biased against figures popular outside the English-speaking world though. I've already discussed above how rejecting articles that are currently stubs / starts could be self-defeating. Sports figures are still within our +/- 2% cushion too so I don't think we need to cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Abdel Fattah al-Burhan

[edit]

Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. If we're going to have current national leaders, this guy seems pretty notable. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Adrian Lamo  5

[edit]

Other than exposing Chelsea Manning  5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. On 2nd thought, we're filling out the Misc section pretty well now, and he is pretty niche. Let's push this over the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. pbp 13:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Very soft oppose, if only because we're still under-quota for Miscellaneous. For all the over-representation of tech elsewhere, hacker/activist strikes me as an interesting category for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add John C. Bogle

[edit]

Founder of the The Vanguard Group  5. Known for his different approach to investing, abstaining from short-term speculation and popularizing the index fund to working-class individuals. His approach to investment is still widely used today, namely those who followed are called "Bogleheads".

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure, we could use more business people (under Miscellaneous), and while he didn't invent passive-investment, he possibly did more than any one person to make it so dominant today. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Espionage additions

[edit]

Above I said that the Espionage subsection under "Miscellaneous" probably should have more than eight listings. Granted there are some that could fit under it that are also under other categories (such as Markus Wolf  5 of the Stasi) but there are others who do not.

Add Eli Cohen

[edit]

Mossad agent who infiltrated the Syrian government and was later executed, and remains a famed figure in Israeli society.

Support
  1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Chevalier d'Éon

[edit]

18th century French spy who has been the subject of intrigue for centuries, remains referenced in pop culture and is seen as a figure of transgender history.

Support
  1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Oleg Penkovsky

[edit]

Since we already have numerous high profile British and American spies for the Soviet Union listed, here is one of the most high-profile examples of the reverse happening.

Support
  1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Carl Woese

[edit]

Helped define Archaea  3. Described on the ranks with Charles Darwin  3, Francis Crick  4, and James Watson  4. Helped revolutionize microbiology with 16S ribosomal RNA. 33 interwikis

Support
  1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Thomas Cavalier-Smith

[edit]

Has proposed and defined many higher taxa such as Rhizaria  4, Excavata  4, Cryptomonad  4, Chromalveolata  4, Chromista  5, Euglenozoa  4, Bikont  5, Radiolaria  5, Cercozoa  5, Opisthokonta, and Viridiplantae. 28 interwikis

Support
  1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Roger Mudd

[edit]

A well-known American TV journalist. Dan Rather  5 from the same era of television is listed, and Mudd seems to be equally vital as him. Won multiple Emmy awards and the Peabody award.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Never a long-term primary anchor as I recall and as I understand it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:44, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

UK modern Christian leaders additions

[edit]

There is a disproportionate amount of American Christian leaders, especially televangelists, in the religious leaders section. There's just a few people listed from the UK, even Australia has more. American Christians are surely influential in the global scene and more well-known figures, but I think we should have some more British people on that list for diversity's sake. I have here some suggestions to consider, not everyone needs to be added.

I also think we could spare to remove some of the televangelists to have more proportionality, we don't even have Televangelism  5 as a vital article. But that'll be a separate proposal.

Probably three or four of the modern American televangelists should be removed. Of these additions, I think one is fair, but all three is excessive. It bears mentioning that contemporary UK is largely a nation of non-adherents. pbp 15:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we would decide that just one is needed, then maybe we should choose to list the current Archbishop of Canterbury. Although Williams is arguably more famous than Welby. Makkool (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Justin Welby

[edit]

The currect Archbishop of Canterbury, and the leader of the worldwide Anglican church. Has focused in social justice and modern challenges in his leadership.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, but ironically looks like he's not going to be at Canterbury much longer. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add John Sentamu

[edit]

A former Archbishop of York, the second highest leader in Church of England. Originally from Uganda, he was the first black Archbishop of York. An influential figure in the UK, and an out-spoken critic against African dictators.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure, we're still a bit below quota for religious figures, and if we allow BLPs for other topics, why not here? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. It doesn't feel right to support a #2 in this regard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Rowan Williams

[edit]

A former Archbishop of Canterbury. A respected theologian, public intellectual and Christian writer in the UK, a still active commentator today.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Of the three proposed additions, I consider he to be the most worthy pbp 22:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Surprised we don't list him honestly; I'm neither British nor Christian, but I've definitely read about him. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap iJustine for El Rubius

[edit]

The Web entertainers and internet personalities section does not have enough non-English speaking creators, the only one being Germán Garmendia. Rubius started his channel in 2006 and has over 40 million subscribers on his main channel and 12 million on his second channel. He also has one of the most-followed Twitch channels in the world. iJustine does not seem to have as much long-term significance being known for the 2007 video 300-page iPhone bill which may have been notable at the time but I doubt that many would recall it. Sahaib (talk) 20:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Listing nom's vote explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I wouldn't be opposed to removing iJustine (her main notability is that she was a pioneer in lifecasting and live streaming in general but her impact hasn't really stood the test of time). But I would be opposed to adding El Rubius. I feel like Youtuber subscriber and Twitch follower counts don't mean much for vitality. When you look at the List of most-subscribed YouTube channels and List of most-followed Twitch channels, I guarantee you that there will be many, many names on there you won't recognize at all no matter how terminally online you are. In fact, there are two Spanish Twitch streamers who are ahead of El Rubius (AuronPlay and Ibai Llanos). It doesn't make sense to add him when we recently rejected IShowSpeed who truly has an international audience and attracts massive crowds that, as two examples, have shut down entire malls in Malaysia [1] and blocked off entire streets in Norway [2]. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a small correction, El Rubius and other Spanish-speaking YouTubers do have an international audience, there are 21 countries that have Spanish as an official language so I would say that is quite international, plus you might not recognize them because of cisbias, but they are pretty well-known. The Blue Rider 15:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's true but I still cannot justify adding streamers like this who have virtually no presence outside of the Spanish-speaking world (even factoring in sysbias, you can reason this out by the fact that he doesn't offer any content in languages outside Spanish nor does he provide closed captioning in other languages) when we quickly reject other streamers who can draw insane crowds no matter what country they go to.
    In general, I would also say content creation on Youtube/Twitch is a finicky business. It is very easy for your audience to outgrow you as they age or you yourself to outgrow what you do as you burn out/realize you've grown out of what made you famous and want to make an unpopular pivot. People who were considered superstars just a decade ago are no longer relevant (an easy example is the aforementioned Germán Garmendia). Streamers or creators can take over the Internet for a couple of years and make it seem like they're never going to drop off in relevance but it is very rare to find content creators whose relevance has stood the test of time.
    This is not to say that El Rubius has been affected by this. It seems like he is still relevant today. But my point is that we need to hold Youtube content creators to a higher standard. If we judged VA5 based on popularity/most followers/most subscribers, this list would be 80% content creators most of us would have never heard of before. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion
  1. I don't know how much pioneers should be given credit, but at the time of this nomination had it been 6 month since she survived the last demotion attempt. I guess if a lot of people keep nominating something to be demoted, maybe the smoke indicates a true fire, but I don't like revisiting noms more than once a year. We should definitely have a 6 month hiatus.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a good find. If this repeats a recent proposal, I agree with you that maybe we should let this die on the vine. I don't particularly like the idea of any influencers being on the list, but it looks like this proposal is stalling out anyways. Unless everyone objects or suddenly revives it, I say we close it out as stalled after the 3 month mark (ca. Dec 20th). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Many celebrities are influencers. There was much ado about splitting Internet celebrity from Influencer. I am iJustine's page creator. I've created pages for several such social media influencer persons (Chiara Ferragni, Adrien Nunez, Elle Leonard and Hanna Cavinder). I am not sure what the future will bring in terms of lasting impact, importance and percieved vitality. Of all my vital articles, I would guess iJ is the most at risk of demotion, as I understand it. I'm pretty sure I am not seeing the issues as clearly as an unbiased discussant.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand, and I think maybe we just have different priorities, which is fine. The voting rounds away most of our individual biases. It looks like there's not much interest in this proposal even now though. Maybe it's worth revisiting in 2026, but for now, if nobody steps in to revive it, we can probably consider it stalled regardless. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per above Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Ira Losco

[edit]

Losco is probably the only Maltese musician that could make the list (though I believe Aidan who has been dominating the charts in Malta for the last 5 years could make it in the future). She has competed in Eurovision twice (the first time coming 2nd), won numerous awards and is frequently described as Malta's queen of pop. She would probably go in the Popular music: General section as she almost exclusively sings in English (one of the official languages of Malta). Sahaib (talk) 13:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Make vote by nom explicit. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Politician/leader changes

[edit]

As it stands there are plenty of major omissions of major figures on the politicians and leaders section, in favour of more questionable entries and attempts to cover as many as independent states (including microstates) as possible, even at the expense of important leaders from elsewhere. Likely the section quota needs to be increased anyway, but even until then there's a lot of potential improvement to be made.

Swap Milton Cato  5 for Edward Seaga

[edit]

Prime minister for under five years of a country with a population of ~100k (presumably even lower when he was leader) versus someone who was a leading figure in Jamaican politics for over 30 years, prime minister for nine, and as a record label owner, was influential in developing Jamaica's cultural power overseas. Arguably served as the foil to Michael Manley  5.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Mixed
  1. Oppose removing Milton Cato because he was very important to Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and is seemingly part of the reason they are a separate country. Neutral on adding Seaga. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per QuicoleJR. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Swap Lyudvig Chibirov for Ebrahim Raisi

[edit]
PASSED
Swapped 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stub article on the president of a barely recognized state with a population of ~50k vs the president of Iran, with a population of nearly 90 million at what has been a time of major international crisis directly involving the country.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support both per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, although he wasn't president for very long, Raisi's presidency was a very dynamic one, especially on the diplomatic front. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Sabah Al-Salim Al-Sabah for Ismail Haniyeh

[edit]
PASSED
Swapped 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Head of state of Kuwait (a small country) for a decently long length of time, but no indication that he was that internationally important vs the recently killed leader of Hamas  5

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Al-Sabah's article does not indicate any lasting importance, while Haniyeh was definitely an important politician. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Although, I feel like Yahya Sinwar would be more important to include, and I don't think Hamas is important enough for two politicians. Support for now, but I would rather add Sinwar than Haniyeh. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Haniyeh was in a more senior poistion, Sinwar I think was more strongly linked to the October 7 attack/current war specifically to my knowledge Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. We already list several Al-Sabah rulers, including the sheikhs that established the country and the king during the Iraqi occupation. Hamas also definitely transformed under Haniyeh. I get the logic of suggesting Sinwar, but like Iostn, I think he might be more fitting as a military commander. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Janet Jagan  5 for Gabriel Boric

[edit]

Prime Minister of Guyana (pop ~800k) for ~9 months, and president for less than two, vs the current President of one of the most most developed countries in South America, coming to power on a platform of constitutional reform. Also note that Guyana, despite its low population, has five different politicians listed.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agree, if we're listing current world leaders, Boric should definitely be there if only because he arguably ended the post-Pinochet era in Chile. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Ati George Sokomanu  5 for B. J. Habibie

[edit]

First (ceremonial) president of Vanuatu, with a population of 300,000 and very little international influence. I wasn't sure wherever to nominate him or Walter Lini  5 initially, but Lini seems more important and the presidency is described as "mostly ceremonial". Habibie served as president for only a short period of time, but in one of the world's most populous countries (Indonesia), and was reponsible for administring over the end of the 30 year long New Order (Indonesia)  5, giving him extra significance.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Tosiwo Nakayama  5 for Tomiichi Murayama

[edit]

First president of a country with a population of ~100k (and at the time even lower) versus one of Japan's only non-LDP prime minister's since the 1950s, and the first one to ever formally address Japan's imperialist past. While he had a short term of office, that is common for Japanese prime ministers and also I decided to include him over Morihiro Hosokawa for the time being as he seems ultimately more impactful and better remembered.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss


Swap Mohammad-Javad Bahonar for Hassan Nasrallah

[edit]
PASSED
Swapped 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A guy who was prime minister for not even a month vs the just killed long-time leader of Hezbollah  5

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support add, prefer moving Bahonar to Rebel / Activist instead of removing? He may not have been prime-minister long, but he had a major part in organizing the revolution prior to that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Carlos Camacho  5 for Guy Verhofstadt

[edit]

First elected governor of Guam is reasonably important on a local level, but he was only in power for 5.5 years total and Guam isn't even an independent country, and only has a population of ~170k. There are much more populous US states we have no politicians from.

As for Guy Verhofstadt, we have no post-WW2 prime ministers from Belgium for some reason (only monarchs) despite it being an influential European country, and he is possibly one of the most internationally influential ones, and is now one of the biggest figures in the administration of the European Union.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson  5 for Davíð Oddsson

[edit]

Of the three Icelandic figures listed, all are presidents, which isn't the actual head of government, as opposed to the prime minister. Both of the others have pretty good claims to vitality despite Iceland's low population, with Sveinn Björnsson  5 being the first president, and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir  5 the first elected female president in the world. Ólafur doesn't really have much other than serving a long time. Davíð Oddsson, the longest serving PM, makes a lot more sense as someone who was largely responsible for Iceland's neoliberal reforms, which later contributed to the Icelandic financial crisis.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Lu Wei (politician)  5 for Wang Huning

[edit]

Some guy who seems to be mostly well-known for being convicted of corruption vs the "Grey Eminence of the CCP"

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Really good find, Wang is (probably?) one of the leading theorists in the Chinese government and his America Against America also arguably makes him the 21st-century, Chinese equivalent to de Tocqueville. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap John Swan (Bermudian politician)  5 for Nayib Bukele

[edit]
WITHDRAWN
Other discussion opened with more participants

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Premier (albeit for a long time) of a non-independent overseas territory with a population of ~60k vs one of the most notorious leaders of Central America today

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Viktor Zubkov for Sergey Lavrov

[edit]
PASSED
Swapped 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Putin loyalist who filled the office of Prime Minister (which is not the most powerful position in Russia) for a short length of time vs the "the longest-serving foreign minister since the Tsarist era" (20 years). ALso notorious for his role in the Russo-Ukrainian War  5.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support; Lavrov has been a household in Russian diplomacy during the Putin era. Idiosincrático (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support swap but consider moving Zubkov to Misc -> Businesspeople? I wanted to skim the Zubkov article first, and his official political career is definitely less notable than Lavrov's. Chairman of Gazprom for over 15 years isn't small potatoes either though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Matsutarō Shōriki  5 for Kakuei Tanaka

[edit]

I'm not sure why Shoriki is listed, his political importance seems to be in becoming the first chairman of the Japanese Atomic Energy Commission, but it seems his business activities are of more importance, but he isn't listed there, and they don't really seem important on an international level (outside of Japan) to list, even if he was relatively influential. Tanaka, OTOH, outside of being prime minister of Japan for 2.5 years, was for a longtime one of the most influyential figures of the Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)  5, Japan's dominant political party, nicknamed the "shadow shogun".

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Mixed
  1. Support adding Tanaka, move Shōriki to Businesspeople. I'm not that familiar with specific individuals in Japanese politics, but Tanaka seems pretty notable. Shōriki's business activities seem really notable though, especially the media empire that includes NTV. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per Zar2gar1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Swap Chantharath  5 for Lê Duẩn

[edit]

Chantharath was the king of a little-known Thai vassal state in South East Asia during the 19th century, and his article is a stub with no indication of lasting influence. Lê Duẩn was one of the most important political figures in post-colonial Vietnam, being the successor to Ho Chi Minh  4 and the first leader of a unified Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam War  4.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Definitely. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands for Mark Rutte

[edit]

It would make more sense as the Dutch government website states that "in the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited". Sahaib (talk) 15:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
Oppose
  1. Oppose swap (but support add); Willem-Alexander is still notable as a figurehead and we have Elizabeth II  4 as VA4. In general though the politician/leader section, at least for contemporary figures, is overall very lacking and Mark Rutte, the longest-serving Dutch Prime Minister, should definitely be listed. Iostn (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per Iostn. Interstellarity (talk) 21:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add yoga teachers

[edit]

Yoga teachers are currently a major omission. I suggest we could add these to Miscellaneous/Health and fitness, if they get enought support. Miscellaneous is under-quota, so we could add more than one of these.

Add K. Pattabhi Jois

[edit]

Developer of ashtanga yoga. Along with Iyengar, one of the most instrumental people establishing modern yoga as exercise.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Yogi Bhajan

[edit]

Introduced kundalini yoga to the West. Also a influential spiritual teacher and entrepreneur.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Bikram Choudhury

[edit]

Controversial Indian-American yoga teacher, the inventor of hot yoga.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Musician removals

[edit]

Remove Bai Hong  5, Gong Qiuxia  5, Wu Yingyin  5, and Yao Lee  5

[edit]

Located in Popular music > Non-English language popular music > Chinese languages (Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese). All 1930s-40s Chinese popular music singers that were part of the Seven Great Singing Stars; all seven are currently VA which is pretty unnecessary and a few of the lesser remembered singers can be removed.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Remove Teng Yu-hsien  5 from Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople

[edit]

Prominent in Taiwanese folk music. This, however, is very niche and his influence seems to be minimal outside of Taiwan.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add dieting figures

[edit]

Some well-known people related to dieting and healthy eating are missing from the list. Add to section Miscellaneous/Health and fitness.

Add William Banting

[edit]

First person to "popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting the intake of carbohydrates" like starch and sugar. His influence is evident that his name became a verb to mean losing weight, which still exists in Swedish.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Weak support, but good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Michio Kushi

[edit]

Introduced the macrobiotic diet to the West.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Walter Willett

[edit]

Known for promoting the Mediterranean diet. The article cites The Boston Globe that he is "world's most influential nutritionist".

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Ann Wigmore

[edit]

First to introudce the idea of a raw food diet in the US.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Currently only in 4 other languages. Sahaib (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Tanni Grey-Thompson

[edit]

After seeing her featured in the BBC's Icons documentary series, I think that she is a vital Paralympian, campaigner and even a Dame. Though she is not a finalist for her category, she is in the four chosen nominees.

Support
  1. As nominator. CrisBalboa1 (talk) 01:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Interstellarity (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Thin Lizzy  5 and/or The Pogues  5

[edit]

Both these bands stick out like sore thumbs in their respective groups and they feel like they were just added to hit some sort of geographical diversity quota but I'm not sure Ireland is the best representative for that (and at least in the hard rock category, we have 1 Brazilian and 3 Scandinavian bands).

Thin Lizzy is, for most intents and purposes, a "one-hit wonder" band with The Boys are Back in Town. According to Spotify, this track has almost 5x more plays over their next most popular one. Arguably their second most famous track, Whiskey in the Jar, is a cover of an Irish folk song and not even the most popular cover (that honor would go to Metallica's version which has 5x more plays on Spotify and won a Grammy). Obviously, number of streams isn't the only factor to determine notability; we include groups like Death (metal band)  5, for example, whose 800,000 monthly listeners pales in comparison to Thin Lizzy's 3.5 millions. But at least Death is a pioneer in the fairly influential death metal subgenre. Thin Lizzy isn't really a pioneer in anything, none of their commercial numbers are that impressive (no platinum certifications in Ireland, the UK, or the US across any of their studio albums), and they haven't achieved much critical success as evidenced by their album ratings on RateYourMusic. Their legacy section indicates that they were respected and influential to some of their peers but this is also the case for a wide variety of other bands we don't list.

The Pogues are an Irish punk band that seem to be even less notable than Thin Lizzy. Low Spotify streaming numbers (1.5 million listeners a month), no particularly famous tracks besides a low-tier Christmas song, no major commercial or critical success, and no legacy section on their article. Their lede states that they reinvigorated traditional Irish music but I don't think that by itself is adequate for VA5 contention.

Maybe this is American bias but I don't think these groups are that influential but maybe one of our more UK/Ireland-leaning contributors can chime in here. Either way, even within Ireland, I think there are better contenders such as The Cranberries whose 69 interwikis are almost as much as The Pogues and Thin Lizzy combined. They are also Top-Importance in Irish music and have 3 songs that have more Spotify streams than the most-streamed Thin Lizzy or The Pogues song. They were also one of the best-selling alternative acts of the 1990s globally. I would not vote to add them in but this is just an example of how Thin Lizzy/The Pogues aren't even the most influential groups within the niche of Irish rock.

As a weak swap suggestion for the Hard Rock category, I'd support Anthrax (band) who are considered one of the Big 4 of thrash metal. We list the other 3 (Metallica  5, Slayer  5, and Megadeth  5). I am also fine with this just being a removal proposal. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom, remove both Aurangzebra (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support a swap between The Pogues and Anthrax. Weak keep Thin Lizzy. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support both per nom. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support for both removals. I would rather cut a few classic rock bands from the 1970s, but there's still sysbias towards rock. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support removing both, just to clear up any confusion about the vote margin. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Anthrax. I think they're less vital than both Thin Lizzy or The Pogues. We won't need to add them only to complete the big four of thrash metal. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose adding Anthrax, just to clear up any confusion about the vote margin. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Add Charles Bronson

[edit]

He's pretty much important to American Western films and one of the most recognized actors at a point. How has he not been added?

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 02:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I do think of Bronson as vital, but I think there is movement afoot to move the line on what constitutes an important actor. Supporting, but would like more clarification on who is being removed or recent removals. If this ends up being a close call, I would like to reconsider in light of removals.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Should be L4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:49, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's what I was thinking. VA4 is a good argument, and I was thinking of suggesting it. But then realizing that he wasn't even on VA5 was pretty interesting. 49p (talk) 21:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Navin Ramgoolam

[edit]

He recently won the 2024 Mauritian general election and was previously prime minister of Mauritius from 1995–2000 and 2005–2014. His father Seewoosagur Ramgoolam is currently listed as a vital article. Sahaib (talk) 14:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Listing nom's vote more explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Military & Revolutionary Proposals

[edit]

Hi there, I don't normally participate in People proposals, but I saw the section for Military / Rebel biographies was still about 25 shy of the quota. I thought I could help brainstorm. Since we're below quota too, I'll go ahead and bundle them. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add 5 Ancient Chinese Generals

[edit]

I know we already have decent coverage of Ancient Chinese generals, but here are 5 more from the Warring States period. In case there's only partial support, I've applied my own ordering, but feel free to prioritize them differently:

  1. Wang Jian (Qin), led the Qin army under Qin Shi Huang to unify China
  2. Lian Po, successfully defended Zhao for most of the decisive Battle of Changping; the Qin influence campaign to replace him is also a notable story
  3. Bai Qi, ultimately won the Battle of Changping for Qin
  4. Li Mu, helped Zhao hold out successfully after its losses at Changping
  5. Zhao Kuo, lost the Battle of Changping for Zhao
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 early modern naval figures

[edit]

2 of them are Ottoman, and although we already list Piri Reis and Hayreddin Barbarossa, I figure the Ottomans were around long enough to justify a couple more:

Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Pier Gerlofs Donia Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 relevant to the early Mughals

[edit]

All 3 would be in the Early Modern period:

  • Mustafa Rumi, Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped introduce musketeers to the Mughal army
  • Ustad Ali Quli, another Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped modernize Mughal artillery
  • Pir Roshan, Pashtun sufi leader that started a long resistance to Mughal influence
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Pir Roshan only Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi, stubs with low pageviews and interwikis (zero in the case of the former) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fair, and that neither even has a Turkish interwiki is a negative in my mind. That said, since we're still under quota in this section, do you think you'd be willing to give these a chance for now just to see if anyone can expand them? There are citations, their historical influence is noteworthy, and they give us good non-Western and pre-1800s coverage. I normally don't discuss votes, but while I won't rehash my comments above, I don't like the idea of deciding just on current metrics; they can sift out a lot of chaff, but sometimes they just reflect a lack of interest to date (by readers or editors). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral

Add 2 pre-modern assassins

[edit]

These both can help fill out some older time periods, and both actually have pop-culture connections too:

  • Jing Ke, ancient, attempted to assassinate Qin Shi Huang at the close of the Chinese Warring States period; actually the basis of the movie Hero with Jet Li
  • Rashid ad-Din Sinan, medieval, probably most famous leader of the Syrian Hashashin. Also a political or religious leader, but technically still under the leadership in Alamut, and should work as Military too. Along with Hassan-i Sabbah, arguably the most associated with the nickname "Old Man of the Mountain", and the basis for some of the Assassin's Creed video game.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, but these belong under Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Assassination instead. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree completely about Jing Ke if assassins are now under Miscellaneous. I honestly wasn't sure about ad-Din Sinan though because he's a capital "A" assassin. It seemed fitting to list them together, but while the Hashashin were notorious for assassinations, they did have a long-lasting state with population and an economy. So if not here, maybe he belongs more under either Religious or Political figures? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 Irish republicans

[edit]

All 20th century and political figures too, but they served as military Chiefs of Staff for the IRA at significant points or over long periods of time. I guess they could all go under Rebels or Military figures:

  • Richard Mulcahy, fought in the Easter Rising, second-in-command under Michael Collins, and later Minister of Defence for the pro-Treaty government in the Irish Civil War.
  • Moss Twomey, longest-serving Chief of Staff for the IRA in the 1920s and 30s after its first split from the Irish government.
  • Cathal Goulding, long involvement with reviving the IRA after WWII, served as Chief of Staff for most of the 1960s, and a major influence in shifting political alignments of the IRA and associated parties.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Moss Twomey is not in any other languages, neutral on the other two. Sahaib (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose Moss Twomey and Cathal Goulding (also note the latter led the Official IRA, the less active IRA splinter during the Troubles) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to add some context, you're right that Goulding's faction largely sat out the Troubles and therefore isn't as notable. It seems like Goulding was important to reviving the IRA before that split too though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral

Add 3 Korean commanders

[edit]

Funny enough, while we list American and Chinese generals, we don't list any Chiefs of Staff for Korean forces on either side of the Korean war. It looks like the following 3 are all good candidates:

  • Chung Il-kwon, appointed right after the start of the war, helped regroup the South Koreans and also would have helped coordinate the Battle of Inchon.
  • Paik Sun-yup, another successful South Korean general and appointed Chief of Staff for the last part of the Korean War.
  • Choe Yong-gon (official), overall commander of North Korean forces for the duration of the Korean War.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 for the Bangladesh Liberation War

[edit]

We list others as leaders, but we currently don't include:

  • Sam Manekshaw, Chief of Staff for the Indian Army and responsible for the overall strategy behind Indian victory.
  • Tikka Khan, actual Pakistani theater commander and governor in Bangladesh, significantly responsible for Operation Searchlight.
  • K. M. Shafiullah, sector commander (including the capital city of Dhaka) during the war and appointed to Army Chief of Staff for the new military shortly after independence.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Decline

Add 3 from the Iran-Iraq War

[edit]

Last batch, but this should bring the section to about 900:

  • Adnan Khayr Allah, Iraqi Minister of Defence throughout the Iran-Iraq War.
  • Mohsen Rezaee, also a politician, but commanded the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran) for most of the war; also arguably its first regular commander and organized it into a genuine military force.
  • Ali Sayad Shirazi, commander of Iran's conventional ground army (Artesh) for most of the war.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Decline
  1. Adnan Khayr Allah, a ssomeone who is most well-knwon as a Minister of Defence (i.e. a cabinet member) would normally go under politicians, in fact Mohsen Rezaee might also belong there as someone who is seemingly more well-known as a political candidate Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree both are kind of borderline, but the way I see it, even if he's in a cabinet-style organization and didn't start out as a soldier, Khayrallah is primarily known for commanding a military. Razaee is arguably even more borderline, but I think he's still known more for his military accomplishments than bureaucratic ones, plus he started his career as a rebel. And in elections, I think he mostly appeals to conservatives or Realpolitik voters, again because of his military accomplishments. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Matt Drudge

[edit]

Related to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, we don't yet list Matt Drudge, who founded the site Drudge Report, where the news of the scandal first broke out. I propose to swap Dowd with him. Drudge is a pioneer in web journalism, mentored Andrew Breitbart of breitbart.com and influenced conservative alternative news media on the Internet. Add to Web journalists under Writers and journalists.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Drudge Report is not vital, so the book is still out on this guy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add Henri Fayol

[edit]

19th-century French management theorist best known for developing a systematic approach to administration. He's regarded as one of the two founders of Scientific management  5 along with Frederick Winslow Taylor  5.

Support
  1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Business theorists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, Social scientists is still under quota, and this is probably the sort of topic Lv 5 is perfect for (a bit niche but still notable). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Ralph Gonsalves

[edit]

Per the article, he is currently the longest-serving democratically-elected state leader having been prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines since 2001. He has also twice served as chairman of the Caribbean Community. Sahaib (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Added for nom Sahaib. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Aulus Cornelius Cossus  5

[edit]

Apparently notable for receiving the Spolia opima (a rare military honour from the early Roman period), but this was while Rome was still comparatively small, and there isn't much pointing to him being that well-remembered.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Weak oppose. I could see deciding he's not vital down the road, but with Military figures still hanging below quota (and no plans to adjust the quota yet), I would rather defer until we have a full section to compare against. I'm not a Classicist either, but he may actually be a big deal to Roman history buffs; I think a lot of the Early Republican history gets glossed over in pop culture today, especially compared to the Early Empire. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Bernardino de Sahagún

[edit]

A Spanish Franciscan friar who is highly regarded as a pioneer of ethnography and anthropology. He was one of the first Europeans to scholarly document and write about pre-Columbian civilizations, most notably in the Florentine Codex.

Support
  1. As nom. To anthropologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, good find. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add cinematographers

[edit]

Currently we lack many prominent cinematographers. I propose the following for consideration. All wouldn't need to get in. About 10 vital cinematographers is probably enough. (Sven Nykvist from Sweden and Gregg Toland and Vilmos Zsigmond from the US are already listed).

Add Roger Deakins

[edit]

From the UK. 16 Academy Award nominations and 2 wins, known for being technically innovative.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Emmanuel Lubezki

[edit]

From Mexico. Known for a ground-breaking style. 8 Academy Award nominations and only one to win in three consecutive years.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Kazuo Miyagawa

[edit]

From Japan. Highly influential pioneering cinematographer, worked in Rashomon with Kurosawa.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss


Add Vittorio Storaro  5

[edit]
PASSED
Added 4–0. Makkool (talk) 21:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

From Italy. One of the most influential cinematographers. Worked in Apocalypse Now. Also 3 Academy Award wins.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 20:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 07:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Raoul Coutard

[edit]

From France. Crucial to the French New Wave movement with his hand-held documentary style.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Gabriel Figueroa

[edit]

From Mexico. Hasn't worked in extensively Hollywood unlike Lubezki, but considered one of the most important to Mexican cinema.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Subrata Mitra

[edit]

From India. Considered one of the greatest cinematographers of India, and a pioneer. Worked on Pather Panchali.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Christopher Doyle

[edit]

From Australia, but worked in Hong Kong cinema extensively. Behind the distinctive visual style of Wong Kar-Wai's films.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add João Lourenço

[edit]

Angola has a population of about 37 million and so the president should probably be listed.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:58, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Absolutely. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Manco Cápac

[edit]

The legendary founder and first governor of the Incas. His existence has not been corroborated, but it's comparable to some politicians such as Romulus  5 and Lycurgus  4. He is a major character in Incan mythology as well.

Support
  1. As nominator. To politicians. I am also open to adding him to Mythological figures. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, also agree with placing in Leaders if that's the precedent for Greece & Rome. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Review of the Literature - East Europe - Modern; using interwiki number criteria and national quotas

[edit]

Basic overview

[edit]

East Europe:

  • 22 countries
  • 63 persons in actual list (33 prose, 23 poetry, 5 drama, 2 journalism)

Determination of indicative national quotas

[edit]

List of countries by gross domestic product in purchasing power parity (2024):

  • 1/ Poland (1,890,000) = 27,5 % of GDP (PPP) of East Europe = 17 persons in list of 63 (now 18)
  • 2/ Romania (894,220) = 13 % = 8 persons (now 4)
  • 3/ Ukraine (655,580) = 9,5 % = 6 persons (now 2)
  • 4/ Czechia (619,880) = 9 % = 6 persons (now 7)
  • 5/ Hungary (448,460) = 6,5 % = 4 persons (now 11)
  • 6/ Greece (436,757) = 6,4 % = 4 persons (now 5)
  • 7/ Belarus (293,140) = 4,3 % = 3 persons (now 3)
  • 8/ Bulgaria (248,910) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 4)
  • 9/ Slovakia (247,540) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 0)
  • 10/ Serbia (191,560) = 2,8 % = 2 persons (now 1)
  • 11/ Croatia (187,190) = 2,7 % = 2 persons (now 0)
  • 12/ Lithuania (154,620) = 2,3 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 13/ Slovenia (117,990) = 1,7 % = 1 person (now 7)
  • 14/ Latvia (81,800) = 1,2 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 15/ Bosnia and Herzegovina (74,280) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 16/ Estonia (65,540) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 17/ Albania (58,200) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 1)
  • 18/ Cyprus (55,140) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 19/ North Macedonia (49,300) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
  • 20/ Moldova (45,410) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
  • 21/ Kosovo (29,719) = 0,4 % = under 1 (now 0)
  • 22/ Montenegro (20,180) = 0,3 % = under 1 (now 0)

(Total GDP (PPP): 6 865 416)

For balance: List of countries by Human Development Index (more cultural criterion) (2022)

-

-

-

Persons by country - synthesis GDP+HDI

Total 63

Now unification by language aspekt (Moldova+Romania = romanian language, Kosovo+Albania = albanian language, Cyprus+Greece = greek language; question of montengrian and macedonian language is politically sensitive issue, so not merge)

Final ranking:

This order does not mean that the quota must be followed exactly, only that we will want to get closer to it if the "interwiki analysis" allows.

Balance with interwiki criterion (by country)

[edit]

Poland 17 (now 18)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions

Greece - 9 (now 5)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions

Czechia - 8 (now 7)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Romania - 7 (now 4)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Ukraine - 4 (now 2)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Hungary - 3 (now 11)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Slovenia 3 (now 7)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Estonia 3 (now 0)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Belarus 2 (now 3)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Slovakia 2 (now 0)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Croatia 2 (now 0)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Serbia 1 (now 1)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Lithuania 1 (now 0)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Latvia 1 (now 0)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

  • Rainis - 31 (poe) - added as new

Albania 0 (now 1)

[edit]

Now in list:

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Bulgaria 0 (now 4)

[edit]

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Bosnia 0-0

[edit]

Now in list:

- (represent by Ivo Andrić, in Serbia list)

Not in list:

Suggestions:

North Macedonia 0-0

[edit]

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

-

Montenegro 0-0

[edit]

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

-

Second scrutinium

[edit]

Adding to the list those authors who come from a country with zero claim but have a high individual ranking - at the expense of those with the lowest individual ranking

Suggestions:

List of authors after second scrutinium (by interwikis) - "national quotas model":

Third scrutinium

[edit]

Candidates for third scrutinium:

Minimum correction:

Fourth scrutinium

[edit]

32 persons in Prose - need 33:

Rigas Feraios -36 replaced with with Sándor Márai - 43 (not Basanavičius because he is the only representative of Lithuania)

FINAL list by interwiki:

FINAL LIST by genre in alphabetical order:

Prose (33)

Poetry (23)

Drama (5)

Journalism (2)

Drama and Journalism do not have a fixed local quota, so the discrepancy does not matter. If the original situation is to be fully preserved, Štúr can be moved to Politics and Branislav Nušić - 41 or Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37 can be added to the drama.

Interesting fact: 10 women on the new list, 6 in old (actual) list - without a specific focus on greater gender equality!

Possible Fifth scrutinium

[edit]

Candidates for eventual fifth scrutinium "Westerners to the west": Joseph Conrad, Elie Wiesel, Tristan Tzara (poe) and Paul Celan (poe) can be relocated to West literature and they can be replaced with:

General discussion

[edit]

Hi there, you clearly put in a lot of work gathering this data so I figure someone should respond.

First off, it looks like you're editing anonymously / via IP address, which is fine, but it does make discussion a bit harder. However you decide to continue editing, just don't forget to sign your posts on the talk pages by typing ~~~~ at the end of your comment.

More to the content of your post, I think this is some really great legwork. One issue though is that it's a lot of text and not entirely clear at first glance what the intent is. If I understand right, you're writing who you would like to see swapped in & out prior to each of the large lists? Or is it a data analysis, and if so, what are your main conclusions? Are you proposing all 5 of your "scrutinii" in parallel, or to pick from one of the 5 as an option?

The second issue, though more minor, is people will almost definitely want to discuss your reasons for making your choices (for example, why weigh by HDI or GDP instead of population?) Also, I'm probably more in a minority on this count, but I've never actually seen a solid argument that interwikis are a reliable metric for vitality, at least not proportionally. There is probably a difference between orders of interwiki links (e.g. < 10 vs. 10-100 vs. > 100), but even then, you have to account for biases, such as non-neutral editors spamming translations.

In short, I'd suggest extracting out only the changes you'd like to propose from this post, then list each small change-set separately in its own proposal. You can still refer to the criteria here, but you only need to compare the data for the relevant articles. You'll also probably want to give other reasons for your choices in case people don't find the metrics you've used compelling.

Anyways, cheers and welcome to VA Level 5. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for paying attention to my comment. My final list is just for inspiration. It seems to me that it is stronger than the one I see in Vital 5 now. I don't want to push specific names. Use my data or don't use it. I just think that if Vital 5 with its established mechanisms does not approach this list, there is a flaw in the system.
A few notes and arguments about my method: I know that the interwikis criterion is not indisputable. Sometimes it can happen that a certain author is overvalued by some "P.R. campaign". I myself have discovered and eliminated one such case (Viktor Dyk). One must be careful. On the other hand: can there really be a significant author with 4, 6, 9 interwikis? After 23 years of the Wikipedia movement? I don't believe it. And I see many such in the current Vital 5 list.
And another argument: it is much harder to P.R. or "spam" campaign to push an insignificant author onto 40 language versions of Wikipedia than onto the Vital 5 list. Even here, various fans try to push a lot of things. And it's much easier for them.
The criterion of population is implicitly included in the GDP criterion - more people create a larger product. But GDP is a little more "cultural" - a smaller nation can be more efficient than a larger one. And the HDI reinforces this cultural tuning even more. Personally, I don't like any quotas and the nationality criterion could easily be completely ignored and just try to measure the global importance of a particular individual. But it seemed to me that the tendency towards quotas prevails here, so I adapted and tried to objectify the matter somehow.
Finally, excuse my bad English. 109.81.83.249 (talk) 08:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah ok, all good points. And I wouldn't worry about your English; it's quite fine. I just wasn't clear on your intentions for the data from the structure of your post. I don't normally participate much on the Writers list, but we can leave your data up for a bit. Maybe someone else that likes to spend time on that list will suggest some changes based on your work in the new year. Cheers! -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Jens Stoltenberg

[edit]

Prime minister of Norway for 9 years and Secretary General of NATO for 10 years.

Support
  1. as nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Edi Rama

[edit]

Has served as prime minister of Albania since 2013.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move Zero Mostel from comedians to stage actors

[edit]

His vitality stems from his three Tony Awards, especially the one for Teyve. pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Several music act removals (mostly rock ones)

[edit]

There are a lot of rock acts that I think should be removed in similar vein to my above proposals to cut Boston (band) and INXS, with almost all of these proposals using the same rationale as the one I provided there. However, since there are so many that I think should go, and I don't want to flood this talk page, I'm grouping all of these further proposals into one header.

As for my rationale for removing most of these, most of the following can generally be applied to them unless stated otherwise:

  • No songs or albums that are listed on a Rolling Stone 500 greatest of all time list. I also generally do not think even one song or album making it onto those lists is enough.
  • Has relatively few interwikis compared to other acts listed at this level, alongside their main songs having few interwikis. A song having only 20-40 interwikis is most of the time understandable, but if a band itself only has that many then I believe it's very easy to tell they're largely irrelevant internationally or aren't truly that important.
  • Limited commercial success, such as not being one of the best selling artists of all time, or have not made one of the best selling songs or albums of all time.
  • No long lasting impact, and/or are not included in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame  5.

An additional consideration is that, even if some of these are influential to some extent (or clearly do not meet one of my points above), this section has a clear rock bias, is over quota, and honestly I think our quota for musicians should probably be lowered. Obviously, anyone is free to disagree with what I think the bar for removal should be and this is completely subjective, but this is here to basically summarize all of the proposals I have created below.

(Also, I'm might be adding more proposals to this topic over time.)

Remove Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds  5

[edit]

They seem to be a long-running band that has clearly seen some success to continue going after a few decades, and good for them, but I don't think they belong here. 28 interwikis is a pitifully low number compared to any other act listed here, and the only claim to vitality I can find of theirs is their AllMusic biography that describes them as "one of the most original and celebrated bands of the post-punk and alternative rock eras in the '80s and onward." And when their article only has 28 interwikis, completely lacks a legacy/impact section, and the band itself has fairly limited commercial success, I highly doubt that claim. Even if they are truly influential in alternative rock and their article just doesn't do a good job of demonstrating it, I feel like the listing is more or less just gap-filling trivia about the genre rather than a truly standout act.

Support
  1. As nom.
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. FYI, a lot of the interwikis are instead probably being covered with the article for Nick Cave (who as a name is more well known than Bad Seeds), who is on 49. Commercial success aside, they have been influential over a long span of time. Iostn (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per lostn. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Pavement (band)  5

[edit]

I will give this band credit where it is due, they have three albums listed on the Rolling Stones 500 listed, and one song listed on that same sites best songs list, and a couple of critics said they were the best band of the 1990s. But with that being said, I think that can safely be pushed to the side when this band possibly has the fewest interwikis out of any modern rock act listed at vital articles (24), which in my opinion makes them liable to be cut. Combine this lack of international relevancy with their lack an impact/legacy section. I commemorate the critical acclaim they have received, but for vital articles I think the reasons they shouldn't be here outweigh the reasons why they should. Refer back to my argument about the potential rock bias.

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. They have a large cult following with a lot of critical acclaim, but they are still too niche for VA probably, and unlike Throbbing Gristle they can't really be credited with originating a broad style of music. Iostn (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Important to alternative music, but as the nom says it just falls short too much. 49p (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:43, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Chicago (band)  5

[edit]

Before I get into why I think they should be removed, I will say that they are listed as one of the best selling musicians of all time, with a claimed 100 million units sold. Key word "claimed". Their certified units only amount to about 48.5 million, which is nothing to scoff at, but compared to other rock bands that number is fairly low. Their article does make the claim that they are among the most successful bands to the RIAA and Billboard, but based on List of highest-certified music artists in the United States I highly doubt that claim and the only source for it is an AllMusic biography. Of course, sales numbers aren't everything, but to add onto this, they have no albums or songs that are among the best selling of all time, none that are on any Rolling Stone lists, and their legacy section is basically just saying that their music is popular to cover. Which... okay? They also have a decent amount of interwikis (45), but that's still not a lot. And their most popular song appears to be Hard to Say I'm Sorry, which only has nine interwikis. I think the same logic I applied in my proposal to remove Boston (band) can be applied here. They were popular in the 70s-80s, they had a decent amount of chart success, but they just haven't stood the test of time. The only band out of those classic radio-oriented rock groups that I think should be kept is Journey (band)  5.

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Their 100+ million units sold claim is included in their Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction essay [3] which one would assume would be thoroughly fact-checked. They are verifiably the second most successful band in Billboard history after The Beach Boys  4 which gives further credence to the previous claim. If we delist them, they would be literally the only musical group with over 100+ million units that we don't include (if you don't believe me, check List of best-selling music artists). Also, I don't think Hard to Say I'm Sorry is their most popular song so that argument is faulty as well. Their song with the most streams on Spotify is If You Leave Me Now which has 14 interwikis, on par with other VA5 tracks such as Tutti Frutti (song)  5. So many of their songs get classic rock radio airplay such as the aforementioned If You Leave Me Now and Hard to Say I'm Sorry but also 25 or 6 to 4 and You're the Inspiration. Judging from the streaming numbers, these are all well-known tracks. Streaming numbers indicate that both Chicago and Journey have stood the 'test of time' equally well; I don't think you can get rid of one and not the other. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per above. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
  1. Having a hard time really opposing your argument.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss
  • Really close to supporting, but User:Aurangzebra has a very good point about sales. It's counterintuitive to me since I don't know anybody that talks about the band, but that must just be the people I'm hanging out with. I will say, however, that if we agreed to cut Boston (band), I totally think we should cut Journey (band) too. I know they have a couple popular songs (and those largely as karaoke memes?), but unless they sold way more albums or influenced more bands than I realize, I wouldn't consider them vital. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Foreigner (band)  5

[edit]

The same logic behind wanting to remove Chicago (band)  5 and Boston (band) applies here. Like seriously, the exact same logic, there is nothing more to add or remove. Take my proposal to remove Chicago (band)  5 above, and you pretty much have the exact same reasons as to why I think Foreigner should be cut. I guess to be fair here though, I Want to Know What Love Is is a pretty popular song, and you could maybe make a similar case as to wanting to keep them based on an extremely popular song like that, similar to how I mainly advocated to keep Journey (band)  5 based on the widespread success of {{VA link|Don't Stop Believin')). But with that being said, I still maintain the general reasons why I think they should be cut: not that many interwikis (43, which I guess is more than Journey but still), a decent amount of commercial success but nothing particularly extraordinary, no best-selling albums or songs, no critically acclaimed songs or albums on a Rolling Stone list (IWKWLI was on the 2010 version of the best songs of all time but it isn't on that list anymore), and so on and so forth. Also all of their songs besides I Want To Know What Love Is have very few interwikis.

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Personally suspect they're less influential than Boston (band), and I agreed with cutting them. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Unless you want to swap in "I Want to Know What Love Is"-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:48, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "I Want To Know What Love Is" is not a song that I would personally list as vital, and I definitely wouldn't list it and not the band. Neither should be here, but that's my opinion. λ NegativeMP1 22:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Pete Townshend  5

[edit]

A different kind of proposal from the other ones in this topic, but I still want to bring it up. The Who  5 is already V5 and I'm not sure if Townshend himself has enough of a separate career from that band to warrant being listed. He did get ranked on some magazine's choices for the best guitarists, but those primarily took into account his work as part of The Who. If we're gonna list people for those reasons, then sure, I guess that's fine, they're definitely influential, but does anything make him more worthy of vitality than someone like James Hetfield or Gerard Way? For the record, I'm not advocating for Hetfield or Way to be listed here, since similarly, their associated bands (Metallica  5 and My Chemical Romance  5) are already V5, but more or less my point is where would we draw the line. Nevertheless, I still think this listing is redundant to the band itself.

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Townshend wrote practically every song for the Who and is the brainchild behind all of their work, including Tommy (The Who album)  5 ("My Generation" also used to be VA-5). While I'm not arguing for the Who to be VA-4, the Who is quite close, being "one of the most influential rock bands of the 20th century" with acclaimed work spanning a decade. I think keeping Townshend in VA-5 will maintain that distinction. I find Townshend in a similar boat to Roger Waters  5 or Jimmy Page  5/Robert Plant  5 as a songwriter who led an influential band.CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 11:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per above. The Who are nearly VA4 so having Townshend isn't superfluous. Also, I don't think our criteria for band members rely on their solo careers. If that were the case, then people like Jim Morrison  5, Keith Richards  5, or Ringo Starr  5 should be cut first. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per above Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young  5

[edit]

We already list Neil Young  5 (who appears to be worthy of vitality himself) and I don't think he needs a subtopic when he's only V5. He himself definitely outweighs the influence of the band. The same logic for why I wanted to remove other rock bands in this topic applies here (no widespread commercial success, no long lasting impact as a group, etc.)

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Highly influential in their own right Iostn (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The band article has no legacy section, and I highly doubt it's worth listing when Neil Young is already vital. Could you please elaborate on your argument for how they are influential in their own right? λ NegativeMP1 22:57, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Besides being iconic for their political activism and influence to the counterculture movements of the late '60s and early '70s, they literally achieve all the criteria you want out of a rock group. They have 2 albums and 2 songs on the RS 500 greatest of all time (you might have missed them because this article covers both Crosby, Stills, and Nash and CSNY). 40+ interwikis. I can't find exact certified units numbers but Déjà Vu (Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young album) has 8 million+ units sold which is Neil Young's best-selling album ever. Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction in 1997 (as CSN, not CSNY, indicating vitality independent of Neil Young). Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove The Ronettes  5

[edit]

Not a rock group, but I think my reasons for wanting to remove them are identical to why I want some of these rock groups removed, so I'm putting this here anyways. Basically, I can't think of a single reason why this group should be vital. 33 interwikis is not that much, their only critically acclaimed album, Presenting the Fabulous Ronettes (422 on a Rolling Stone list), has only 3 interwikis, and they're not that commercially successful or influential on the music industry.

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Weak support. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
  1. Be My Baby  5 is massively influential and they contributed a lot to "A Christmas Gift for You From Phil Spector" which Rolling Stone ranked the greatest Christmas album of all time, although both are famous primarily due to Phil Spector  5's production. It doesn't seem we have any classic girl groups besides The Supremes  4, so I am not against keeping The Ronettes. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 11:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Imogen Heap  5

[edit]

AFAIK, her influence is more on technical grounds rather than being that well-known or critically acclaimed musically/stylistically - to note, the genres she's associated with were well-established by the start of her career. I considered her to maybe be the weakest listing under electronic music, and if Throbbing Gristle is removed (which I strongly disagree with) then so should she.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. λ NegativeMP1 18:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interesting artist but nothing particularly vital here. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:23, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Iostn (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Breyten Breytenbach

[edit]

A while back there was actually a vote to remove his brother, Jan Breytenbach, a soldier far less well known than he is. Also quite a nice South African who has hardly killed anyone.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Frank G. Slaughter  5

[edit]

"books sold more than 60 million copies" (uncited), but other than that there's little indication of vitality, other than a couple of film adaptations, with none of his books having articles. Possibly, the high figure, if at all true, is just due him having written a lot of books in general.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 21:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per above. Sahaib (talk) 22:09, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Definitely, how did this slip through the cracks Aurangzebra (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Good find, and writers is still over quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Move Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood  5 and Ralph Bunche  5 to politicians

[edit]

I cannot fathom why they are not listed under politicians when their principal endeavors were diplomatic/political (both received the Nobel Peace Prize for diplomacy). In addition, Cecil was a Cabinet secretary in the British government. pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster doesn't really do anything. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cecil also served in both houses of parliament pbp 20:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best-selling non-vital musicians

[edit]

I have compiled them. This could help people who want to make suggestions, though some have already been discussed before.

Artist Country Period active Release-year of first charted record Genre Total certified units
(from available markets)[a] 		Claimed sales
Tim McGraw United States 1990–present[1] 1994[1] Country[1]

82.3 million
  • US: 80.65 million[2]
  • UK: 200,000[3]
  • CAN: 1.535 million[4]
 90 million[5]
Post Malone United States 2013–present[6] 2015[6] Pop / R&B / hip-hop[6]

238.5 million
  • US: 172.5 million[2]
  • GER: 2.4 million[7]
  • UK: 25.02 million[3]
  • FRA: 1.533 million[8]
  • CAN: 13.44 million[4]
  • AUS: 11.1 million[9]
  • BRA: 6.170 million[10]
  • ITA: 810,000[11]
  • SWE: 900,000[12]
  • NOR: 420,000[13]
  • DEN: 2.29 million[14][15]
  • MEX: 330,000[16]
  • BEL: 235,000[17]
  • POL: 290,000[18]
  • NZ: 840,000[19]
  • POR: 295,000[20]
 80 million[21]
Flo Rida United States 2007–present[22] 2007[22] Hip-hop / hip house /EDM[22]

90.7 million
 80 million[29]
Imagine Dragons United States 2008–present[30] 2012[30] Pop rock / electropop / pop[30]

161.7 million
  • US: 112.5 million[2]
  • GER: 5.450 million[7]
  • UK: 15.8 million[3]
  • FRA: 3.666 million[8]
  • CAN: 4.640 million[4]
  • AUS: 3.150 million[9]
  • BRA: 7.460 million[10]
  • ITA: 2.375 million[11]
  • SPA: 1.650 million[31]
  • SWE: 1.180 million[32]
  • NOR: 555,000[13]
  • DEN: 690,000[15]
  • MEX: 510,000[16]
  • BEL: 340,000[17]
  • AUT: 572,500[27]
  • POL: 790,000[18]
  • NZ: 270,000[19]
  • POR: 140,000[20]
 75 million[33]
Luke Bryan United States 2001–present[34] 2007[35] Country / country pop[35]

108.9 million
  • US: 106.5 million[2]
  • UK: 400,000[3]
  • CAN: 2.040 million[4]
 75 million[36]
Bob Seger United States 1961–present[37] 1967[37] Rock / Hard rock/ Pop rock[37]

55.3 million
 75 million[39]

References

  1. ^ a b c Huey, Steve. "Allmusic: Tim McGraw (Biography)". AllMusic. Retrieved June 9, 2018.
  2. ^ a b c d e f Cite error: The named reference RIAA Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ a b c d e f Cite error: The named reference BPI certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ a b c d e f Cite error: The named reference Music Canada Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Alter, Charlotte (2 November 2023). "Tim McGraw on How Music Can Heal Divisions in America". Time. Retrieved 31 March 2024.
  6. ^ a b c Yeung, Neil. "Allmusic: Post Malone (Biography)". AllMusic. Retrieved February 15, 2022.
  7. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference BVMI Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  8. ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference SNEP Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  9. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Australian Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  10. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference PMB Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  11. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference FIMI Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  12. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Swedish Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  13. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference IFPI Norge: Troféoversikt was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ Cite error: The named reference Hitlisten.nu was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  15. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference IFPI Denmark: Certificeringer was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  16. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference AMPROFON Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  17. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Belgian Certifications 1995–present was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  18. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Polish Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  19. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference New Zealand's Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  20. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Audio Gest was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  21. ^ Mendoza, Diego (May 6, 2022). "'I'm the happiest I've ever been': Post Malone announces girlfriend's pregnancy". KHOU. Archived from the original on August 18, 2022. Retrieved May 6, 2022.
  22. ^ a b c Kellman, Andy. "Allmusic: Flo Rida (Biography)". AllMusic. Retrieved March 14, 2016.
  23. ^ Cite error: The named reference RIAJ certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  24. ^ Cite error: The named reference RIAJ Digital certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  25. ^ Cite error: The named reference Spanish certifications 2000-2002 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  26. ^ Cite error: The named reference Swiss Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  27. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Austrian Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  28. ^ Cite error: The named reference Radioscope New Zealand's certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  29. ^ Kernan, Patrick (July 24, 2018). "Hazleton woman injured at Flo Rida show settles lawsuit with rapper, others". Times Leader. Retrieved March 14, 2019.
  30. ^ a b c Monger, James. "Allmusic: Imagine Dragons (Biography)". AllMusic. Retrieved December 14, 2021.
  31. ^ Cite error: The named reference Spanish Certifications was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  32. ^ Cite error: The named reference Sverige Toplistan: Sök was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  33. ^ Sheehan, Jennifer (January 31, 2022). "Imagine Dragons adds tour dates including new show at Allentown's PPL Center". The Morning Call. Retrieved January 31, 2022.
  34. ^ Deming, Mark. "Allmusic: Luke Bryan (Biography)". AllMusic. Retrieved April 12, 2021.
  35. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Allmusic: Usher (Biography) was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  36. ^ Parrent, Amy J (May 25, 2021). "Luke Bryan ushers in season of concerts at Soaring Eagle". The Oakland Press. Retrieved May 25, 2021.
  37. ^ a b c Erlewine, Stephen. "Allmusic: Bob Seger (Biography)". AllMusic. Retrieved January 13, 2022.
  38. ^ Cite error: The named reference InfoDisc Les Certifications depuis 1973 (albums) was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  39. ^ Mielke, Randall (August 1, 2019). "Hollywood Nights will take RiverEdge Park crowd through Bob Seger's hits". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved October 7, 2019.
List of artists with the top 100 highest-certified albums as of July 23, 2024[1]
Rank Units
(millions) 		Name Nat. Active
33 44.5 Alan Jackson US 1980s–2020s[2]
Bob Seger & the Silver Bullet Band US 1960s–2020s[3]
38 41 Reba McEntire US 1970s–2020s[4]
40 40 Tim McGraw US 1990s–2020s[5]
51 35 Kenny Chesney US 1990s–2020s[6]
52 34.5 Dave Matthews Band US 1990s–2020s[5]
62 31.5 Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers US 1970s–2010s†
73 28 Mannheim Steamroller US 1970s–2010s
80 27.5 Brooks & Dunn US 1990s–2010s
John Mellencamp US 1970s–2020s[7]
87 26.5 Steve Miller Band US 1960s–2010s
93 25 Creed US 1990s–2010s
Toby Keith US 1990s–2020s†[8]
ZZ Top US 1970s–2020s[9]
98 24.5 REO Speedwagon US 1970s–2010s
100 24 Nickelback Canada 1990s–2020s[10]
Vince Gill US 1970s–2010s
List of artists with the top 50 highest-certified digital singles as of October 2, 2024[11][12]
Rank Units
(millions) 		Name Nat. Active
7 136 Post Malone US 2010s–2020s[13]
11 120 Travis Scott US 2000s–2020s[5]
13 106.5 Morgan Wallen US 2010s–2020s[14]
14 103.5 Imagine Dragons US 2000s–2020s[15]
16 95.5 Luke Combs US 2010s–2020s[16]
18 95 Future US 2000s–2020s[17]
22 85.5 Luke Bryan US 2000s–2020s[5]
23 84 Juice Wrld US 2010s†[18]
26 82 YoungBoy Never Broke Again US 2010s–2020s[19]
27 78 J. Cole US 2000s–2020s[20]
28 76 Lil Baby US 2010s–2020s[21]
XXXTentacion US 2010s†[22]
30 70 Twenty One Pilots US 2010s–2020s[23]
33 65 Rod Wave US 2010s–2020s[24]
34 62 SZA US 2010s-2020s[25]
36 60.5 Chris Stapleton US 2000s–2020s[26]
38 58 Cardi B US 2010s–2020s[27]
Khalid US 2010s–2020s[28]
Polo G US 2010s–2020s[29]
42 54.5 Florida Georgia Line US 2010s–2020s[30]
Panic! at the Disco US 2000s–2020sd[31]
44 54 A Boogie wit da Hoodie US 2010s–2020s[32]
Flo Rida US 2000s–2020s[33]
46 52 Blake Shelton US 2000s–2020s[34]
Harry Styles UK 2010s–2020s[35]
Pitbull US 2000s–2020s[36]
49 51 Sam Smith UK 2000s–2020s[37]
50 49.5 DJ Khaled US 2000s–2020s[38]

References

  1. ^ "Gold & Platinum". Recording Industry Association of America. Retrieved September 17, 2024.
  2. ^ Parton, Chris (January 18, 2020). "Alan Jackson Plays Secret 'Good Time' Set at Nashville Honky Tonk". SoundsLikeNashville.com. Retrieved February 12, 2020.
  3. ^ McCollum, Brian (2023-10-24). "Bob Seger performs for first time in 4 years, honors Patty Loveless at country hall of fame". Detroit Free Press. Retrieved December 2, 2023.
  4. ^ Freeman, Jon (30 March 2020). "Thomas Rhett Recruits Keith Urban, Reba McEntire for Uplifting Collaboration 'Be a Light'". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 2 May 2020.
  5. ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference Vulture-20200501 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Cerio, Michael (21 February 2020). "WORLD PREMIERE: Kenny Chesney - 'Here and Now'". Radio.com. Retrieved 2 May 2020.
  7. ^ Henne, Bruce (12 April 2020). "At Home With Farm Aid Streaming Online". antimusic.com. Retrieved 2 May 2020.
  8. ^ Friskics-Warren, Bill (February 6, 2024), "Toby Keith, Larger-Than-Life Country Music Star, Dies at 62", The New York Times, ISSN 0362-4331, retrieved February 6, 2024
  9. ^ Wilkening, Matthew (July 28, 2021). "Dusty Hill Insisted ZZ Top Not Break Up Following His Death". Ultimate Classic Rock. Retrieved June 10, 2022.
  10. ^ Eler, Alicia (August 15, 2020). "Opinion | Nickelback's new song is how they remind us of what they really are". NBC News. Retrieved February 13, 2021.
  11. ^ "Gold & Platinum – Top Artists (Digital Singles)". Recording Industry Association of America. Retrieved October 2, 2024.
  12. ^ "Gold & Platinum – All Digital Singles". Recording Industry Association of America. September 3, 2021. Retrieved September 5, 2021.
  13. ^ Lombardo, Cassandra (February 11, 2020). "Editorial: Post Malone "Runaway Tour"". The Reflector. University of Indianapolis. Retrieved February 12, 2020.
  14. ^ Kelly, Alex (December 13, 2021). "10 Best Morgan Wallen Songs of All Time, Ranked 2021". Tone Start. Retrieved January 15, 2022.
  15. ^ Zemler, Emily (March 24, 2021). "Imagine Dragons Give Intimate Performance of 'Follow You' on 'Colbert'". Yahoo! Entertainment. Retrieved April 17, 2021.
  16. ^ "Luke Combs' new album Growin' Up out today". Sony Music Canada. 2022-06-24. Retrieved 2023-02-14.
  17. ^ Breihan, Tom (12 July 2019). "Future – "100 Shooters" (Feat. Meek Mill & Doe Boy)". Stereogum. Retrieved 2020-08-19.
  18. ^ White, Adam (December 8, 2019). "Juice Wrld death: Chicago-born rapper dies aged 21". Independent. Archived from the original on December 8, 2019. Retrieved December 8, 2019.
  19. ^ "RS Charts: Youngboy Never Broke Again's 'Top' Debuts at Number One". Rolling Stone. September 21, 2020. Retrieved November 21, 2020.
  20. ^ Legaspi, Althea (June 16, 2020). "J. Cole Discusses Black Lives Matter Discourse in 'Snow on Tha Bluff'". Rolling Stone. Retrieved August 15, 2020.
  21. ^ Caulfield, Keith (March 8, 2020). "Lil Baby Earns First No. 1 Album on Billboard 200 Chart With 'My Turn'". Billboard. Retrieved December 13, 2020.
  22. ^ Zidel, Alex (June 18, 2019). "XXXTentacion Estate Announces New Album On One-Year Death Anniversary". HotNewHipHop. Retrieved April 17, 2021.
  23. ^ Blistein, Jon (June 22, 2020). "Twenty One Pilots Share 'Never-Ending' Music Video for 'Level of Concern'". Rolling Stone. Retrieved November 21, 2020.
  24. ^ Caulfield, Keith (September 24, 2023). "Rod Wave Scores Third No. 1 Album on Billboard 200 With 'Nostalgia'". Billboard. Retrieved September 15, 2024.
  25. ^ Smith, Danyel (2023-02-08). "SZA's Ruination Brought Her Everything". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on February 8, 2023. Retrieved 2023-02-09.
  26. ^ Freeman, Jon (November 10, 2022). "Chris Stapleton and Patty Loveless Hush the CMAs with Epic 'You'll Never Leave Harlan Alive'". Rolling Stone. Retrieved November 10, 2022.
  27. ^ Holt, Brianna (2020-08-09). "Why Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion's Empowering Anthem "WAP" Is So Important". Complex. Retrieved 2020-08-19.
  28. ^ Warner, Denise (October 16, 2020). "Watch the Performances From the 2020 Billboard Music Awards". Billboard. Retrieved October 17, 2020.
  29. ^ Trust, Gary (April 19, 2021). "Polo G Scores First Billboard Hot 100 No. 1 With Debut of 'Rapstar'". Billboard. Retrieved November 5, 2022.
  30. ^ Freeman, Jon (September 10, 2020). "Florida Georgia Line Celebrate Longnecks, Parking Lots, and Hank in New Song 'Long Live'". Rolling Stone. Retrieved November 21, 2020.
  31. ^ Rogers, Jack (January 24, 2023). "Panic! At The Disco Are Calling It A Day". Rock Sound. Retrieved January 24, 2023.
  32. ^ Minsker, Evan (February 11, 2020). "A Boogie Wit Da Hoodie Releases New Album Artist 2.0". Pitchfork. Retrieved April 17, 2021.
  33. ^ Hallock, Jeremy (August 24, 2020). "Grand Prairie rapper teams up with Flo Rida, Lil Jon after drawing 65 million views on TikTok". The Dallas Morning News. Retrieved April 17, 2021.
  34. ^ Dukes, Billy (February 14, 2020). "WATCH: Blake Shelton Covers Alan Jackson and the Crowd Is Here for It!". Taste of Country. Retrieved February 15, 2020.
  35. ^ Trust, Gary (11 April 2022). "Harry Styles' 'As It Was' Launches at No. 1 on Billboard Hot 100". Billboard. Retrieved 11 April 2022.
  36. ^ Lopez, Julyssa (November 20, 2020). "Latin Grammys Sticks to Past Winners, But Shines in World-Traversing Telecast". Rolling Stone. Retrieved April 17, 2021.
  37. ^ Cite error: The named reference GC-20200419 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  38. ^ Cite error: The named reference BB-20200127-Grammys was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Artist Biggest selling album Period Genre Claimed sales
Status Quo 12 Gold Bars 1967–present Rock 130 million[1]
The Dave Clark Five – 1964–1970 Pop rock / Beat 100 million[2][3]
Eurythmics Greatest Hits 1980–present New wave 75 million[4]
Little Mix Glory Days 2011–2022 Pop, R&B, dance-pop 75 million[5]
UB40 Promises and Lies 1980–present Reggae 100 million[6]
Supertramp Breakfast in America[7] 1969–present Progressive rock 60 million[8][9]
Jethro Tull Aqualung 1968–present Progressive rock / hard rock 60 million[10]
T. Rex The Slider[11] 1967–1977 Glam rock / Folk rock 58 million[12]
Culture Club Colour by Numbers 1982–present New wave-pop 50 million

References

  1. ^ The Times Archived 20 July 2023 at the Wayback Machine on Status Quo
  2. ^ Gundersen, Edna (6 March 2008). "For Dave Clark Five, the accolades finally arrive". USA Today. Archived from the original on 7 January 2012. Retrieved 2010-04-26.
  3. ^ "Dave Clark Five singer Smith dies". BBC News. 29 February 2008. Archived from the original on 13 August 2009. Retrieved 5 September 2009.
  4. ^ "Eurythmics". Sony Music Germany (in German). Archived from the original on 22 March 2009. Retrieved 2009-06-28.
  5. ^ Aubrey, Elizabeth (2023-09-16). "Leigh-Anne Pinnock hints debut album will be released next year". NME. Retrieved 2023-09-17.
  6. ^ Sherwin, Adam (30 April 2008). "UB40 reveal new lead singer: Ali Campbell's brother Duncan". Times Online. London. Archived from the original on 17 May 2008. Retrieved 2010-04-26.
  7. ^ Doran, John. Supertramp: Breakfast in America review Archived 4 March 2013 at the Wayback Machine. BBC. 29 October 2010. Retrieved 13 June 2011.
  8. ^ Wuensch, Yuri. "Roger Hodgson returns with solo tour"[usurped]. CANOE. 21 November 2006. Retrieved 12 June 2011.
  9. ^ Heatley, Michael. "Indelibly Tramped". Record Collector. Archived from the original on 10 January 2017. Retrieved 9 January 2017.
  10. ^ "Interview with Jethro Tull's Ian Anderson". BBC Wiltshire. Archived from the original on 28 September 2009. Retrieved 5 September 2009.
  11. ^ "T Rex - Electric Boogie plus Weeley Festival". Archived from the original on 16 February 2012.
  12. ^ "The death of a glam rock idol". Chronicle Live. 15 September 2007. Archived from the original on 1 July 2009. Retrieved 5 September 2009.

Sahaib (talk) 00:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We already list a lot of musicians (too many, infact) and we've already been making cuts even towards artists that are among the best selling due to their lack of relevance and importance over time. And a lot of these are simply either too recent or fall into that category I just mentioned. I would not support the vast majority of these myself. λ NegativeMP1 01:46, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Harry Styles

[edit]

Out of the artists I compiled here, he is one of the more vital ones in my opinion. See Cultural impact of Harry Styles and List of awards and nominations received by Harry Styles. It is similar to Justin Timberlake and NSYNC in that One Direction is already vital.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. One Direction  5 is already level 5 and I would argue his solo career (which began less than a decade ago) to fall under too recent. I recognize his widespread impact and popularity, but his fame isn't something truly extraordinary and we don't know if it will stand the test of time. And besides, I think we should list less musicians, not more. λ NegativeMP1 01:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per NegativeMP1. Also if we recently voted to boot Dua Lipa who has had both more critical and commercial success than Harry Styles as a solo artist (not to mention way more interwikis), I don't think we can justify adding him yet. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:54, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Although his 3rd Multiplatinum album, inches him a bit above Dua Lipa, I can't support both as a solo artist and part of a band.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral


Discussion

Remove Nexhmije Pagarusha

[edit]

There is more vital artists from Southeast Europe that are not listed such as Dino Merlin who actually wrote Bosnia and Herzegovina's national anthem (I would have suggested him but Bosnian Goran Bregović is already listed) as well as Lepa Brena and Zdravko Čolić (Bosnian emigrants to Serbia). In terms of just Kosovo/Albania, artists such as Dua Lipa, Era Istrefi, Rona Nishliu, Bleona have more language links but I don't really think there is a vital artist from the countries as of now.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 07:40, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove some publisher stubs or near-stubs

[edit]

The proposed removals have no direct connection to VA5 publications, historical events, or awards. Some of them are included as the "first publication in X region," but many of these publications were short-lived, had little diffusion, and no wiki articles. Plus, some of these claims may be insufficiently sourced or subject to debate.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. None of these seem vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. sure GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 06:25, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. All of these get super low pageviews, Samuel Orchart Beeton is the biggest at ~13 a day and everyone else is even worse.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 10:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Good argument. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add John Amos Comenius to Educators

[edit]

Founder of modern pedagogy, 66 interwikis. (Can be exchanged for: William Holmes McGuffey (2 iw), Egerton Ryerson (3iw) or Oscar Browning (4iw) - very local personalities)

Support
  1. 109.81.83.126 (talk) 02:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Definitely! Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:23, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Sure, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove some smaller sports figures

[edit]

Remove Robert Fulford (croquet player)  5

[edit]

We recently downgraded Croquet  5 from Level 4 to 5. There's less reason to have a croquet pro in the list. Fulford has zero interwikis as well.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 19:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I'd rather cut one of the 4 21st century esport players or 3 frisbee players than the only croquet guy. We should leave at least one rep from that sport.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
  • My first instinct is to support as too niche... but then I realized a lot of people are at least familiar with croquet. So maybe including one notable player is worth it for the coverage? Just pumping the brakes though; I definitely won't oppose. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove George Balabushka  5

[edit]

A designer and maker of pool cues. A legend in his field, but feels hardly a vital figure to list.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Interesting, but way too niche. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I don't shoot pool, but I recognize this guys name 5 decades after his death. Unlike the other three, his legacy is quite clear. The closest peer to him who overlapped his lifetime was probably Orville Gibson  5-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Mika Kohonen  5

[edit]

A floorball player. Arguably one of the best players of all time, but floorball is globally a niche sport only popular in Northern Europe.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Floorball (essentially turf floor hockey) seems too niche to me. There is probably an inline hockey guy somewhere who is similarly elite, but we can't protect everyone. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:28, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Frederick Humphreys (athlete)  5

[edit]

Won a gold medal in tug-of-war, when it was briefly an Olympic sport. Tug-of-war is a Level 4 article, but still I don't think it's necessary to have a figure listed for that sport. Tug-of-war is more an informal thing, and it being a competetive sport seems more like a historical edge case.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

TWO gold medals, FWIW. Fourteen interwikis, which is substantially more than some of the others up for removal. I think the question might be, "would he be vital if this was a different sport?" Does two relay medals get you VA5? Does two team medals in basketball get you VA5? pbp 20:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This may be a bit of a forced analogy, but compare Scottie Pippen. Scottie is NOT at VA5, although he may be one of the most influential basketball players to not be. Scottie has 6 NBA (team) championships in addition to two Gold medals (1992 and 1996). pbp 20:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's really hard to say what's worth including and what's too marginal. I mostly think that examples like Humphreys broadens the scope too thin, but I realize we can't just have it all be football, baseball, basketball and athletics. In any case, I would support swapping Humphreys with Pippen. Makkool (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Pippen is the man on the athlete on the outside of the bubble right now. I am don't think tug of war requires a spot on the list short of an individual who maybe spanned 4 Olympics or something.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Feliks Zemdegs  5

[edit]

Speedcubing is pretty niche at a V5 already so I don't believe we need any subpages for it. -1ctinus📝🗨 15:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom -1ctinus📝🗨 15:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. I was also thinking of nominating him. Makkool (talk) 10:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Yeah, Rubik's cube competitions are way too niche. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Chaim Weizmann

[edit]

Russian-born Israeli chemist who is regarded as "the 'father' of industrial fermentation" for his discovery of Acetone–butanol–ethanol fermentation. He was also one of the main architects of the Balfour Declaration  4 and served as the first president of Israel.

Support
  1. As nominator. To politicians, though I would support adding him to scientists as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 07:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. To politicians Iostn (talk) 22:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Adding to politicians looks more appropriate EleniXDD※Talk 03:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Agree to Politicians. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove some publisher stubs or near-stubs, second batch

[edit]

Slightly more influential than the list above, but some of these inclusions hinge on inherited vitality (The John Walters who were in succession editors-in-chief of The Times after their father/grandfather, John Walter (publisher)  5) or place too much emphasis on being co-founders of newspapers, despite having limited participation in running the outlets themselves (McGarvie and Miller). Others are near-stubs that do not assert much vitality.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:18, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Good argument. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:21, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Jerry Buss  5, Add Lamar Hunt and Jack Kent Cooke

[edit]

Jerry Buss is primarily notable for a single sport: basketball Los Angeles Lakers  5. He didn't even construct the arenas the Lakers play in: the Forum was Cooke and Staples Center (I refuse to call it Crypto.com Arena) was Phil Anschutz. I say this as a Lakers fan.

Jack Kent Cooke owned the Lakers, created the Los Angeles Kings, and owned the Washington Redskins. Lamar Hunt is in Halls of Fame for both football and soccer; both football (the AFC championship) and soccer (the U.S. Open Cup) award trophies in his name.

Support
  1. pbp 18:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support removing Buss and adding Hunt, oppose Cooke. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. same as kevinishere. Cooke doesn't seem to stand out more than any other sports team owner. I'd rather have Buss than Cooke because at least Buss was owner during the Showtime Era. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support adding Hunt.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:17, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Inge Lehmann

[edit]

Danish seismologist who made significant contributions to geophysics and seismology. In 1936, she discovered the existence of Earth's inner core.

Support
  1. As nom. To Earth scientists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:49, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:55, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Scorpion I to Leaders -> Ancient Egypt

[edit]

So some might be turned off by the relatively short article, but I don't think the current size reflects the notability or potential sources. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure there's much more archaeology surrounding him.

Pretty much, Scorpion I is (to date) the earliest attested Egyptian pharaoh, and may have started some of the institutions commonly associated with the Egyptian state for millennia. He only ruled Upper (Southern) Egypt before it was unified with the North, during the prehistoric Naqada III period (so hieroglyphs weren't fully developed yet either). There's notable evidence though that he was a major figure in the evolution of a centralized Egyptian state. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add Abu Sa'id al-Jannabi to Leaders -> Medieval Middle-East

[edit]

This guy was the founder and first ruler of the Qarmatian state in East Arabia, around 900 CE. They were a major opponent of the Abbasid caliphate and later became notorious in the wider Islamic world for attacking Mecca. Some also consider their social organization maybe the closest thing to the USSR of the Middle Ages. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add recent military leaders from the Russo-Ukrainian War

[edit]

After reclassifying less political brigands and pirates under Criminals, instead of Rebels, we have a lot of slots open in the military section. I normally don't suggest recent figures, and I know the topic brings out a lot of emotion in people, but I think the current war between Russia and Ukraine is clearly historical. That makes generals from both sides notable:

I don't know whether he belongs under Rebels, Businesspeople, or something else, but I'd also suggest

both for his role in forming the Wagner Group and the weird (sort of?) rebellion he led in 2023. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Mixed
Neutral

Add Hassan Djamous to Military leaders -> Modern African

[edit]

Upfront, the page is currently a stub and may not have many interwikis, but I suspect that's more a coverage bias than a lack of notability.

He was the commander of Chadian forces during the Chadian-Libyan War, and became famous for his effective use of light technicals, particularly at the Battle of Fada. Chad ultimately won the war, which is sometimes known as the Toyota War due to Chadian tactics under his command. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Remove Henry Muddiman

[edit]

He is notable for having a monopoly of print and publishing The London Gazette (which is not a vital article). Other people who had monopolies include Roger L'Estrange and Théophraste Renaudot who are both not listed. Also doesn't appear to have a legacy.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 10:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:10, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Robin Cook (American novelist)  5

[edit]

Out of all suspense and crime writers we list in the Modern US and Canada writers section, he seems least vital. Has released best-sellers and had TV and movie adaptations made from this works, but isn't a household-name like Clive Cussler or Michael Chrichton. Hasn't received any literary awards in the genre.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove self-help writers

[edit]

Looking at the list of modern US and Canada writers, we have a lot of self-help authors. These books are popular, but their writers aren't really so important for literature to be included. I would argue that the only writer of self-help books that's vital enough would be Dale Carnegie  5, who wrote the classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People". The following are not as significant as he is.

Remove Tim Ferriss  5

[edit]

Writer of "4-Hour Work Week" and "Tools of Titans", has also a popular podcast

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I think his vitality has had some longevity.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove John Gray (American author)  5

[edit]

Writer of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Robert Greene (American author)  5

[edit]

Writer of "48 Laws of Power"

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Tony Robbins  5

[edit]

Writer of "Unlimited Power" and "Awaken the Giant Within", also a popular seminar speaker

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Eckhart Tolle  5

[edit]

Writer of "The Power of Now", also an influential spiritual teacher. Maybe he could be vital as a religious figure, but at least not as a writer.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Alan Carr

[edit]

I assumed he was in the comedian section but he is actually in the television hosts and personalities section. Either way, he currently has 14 languages links compared to British comedians David Mitchell, Jimmy Carr (not related) and Rob Brydon who all have 20+.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 06:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Anne Wojcicki

[edit]

Currently in the other section of businesspeople. 23andMe is not at level 5, subject has a lot less language links than her sister Susan Wojcicki (who is at level 5).

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Angela Burdett-Coutts, 1st Baroness Burdett-Coutts to Philanthropists

[edit]

Filthy rich 19th-century Brit who was the matron of a bazillion causes. Arguably one of the most influential women of Britain of that period

Support
  1. pbp 13:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Her father Francis Burdett is not listed. It would be like listing Lachlan Murdoch, Ivanka Trump, Ailsa Mellon Bruce, Christina Onassis, Frédéric Arnault instead of their fathers. Sahaib (talk) 14:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Would it, though? Do any of the sons and daughters you list have more interwikis than their daddies? Angela out-interwikis her daddy 17-13. By comparison, Aristotle Onassis throttles his daughter in terms of interwikis, 62-20. With the Mellons, it's 31-4. I'm sorry; while I think your analogy was in good faith, I just don't see it as particularly applicable to the Burdetts pbp 16:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If you check the talk page of Francis he is rated as High-importance to WikiProject Politics of the UK, I'm not an expert on the subject so I don't know if that rating is accurate but the point I'm making is that whilst he doesn't get as many pageviews, he is arguably more vital. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Remove all or most American Football players, Sports business-people, coaches, and referees

[edit]

This should be an interesting one. I believe the inclusion of most if not all American Football related people violates two of "The key criteria in determining whether an article is vital."

  • First, "While the vitals list is for English Wikipedia, the focus is on the world." American Football is not popular globally, and its prominence here is due to not just Western, but American bias. To demonstrate, based on some quick Googling on most popular sports globally, American Football is possibly the 10th most popular based on this, with Volleyball and table tennis having more then DOUBLE the global audience. American Football has 42 articles for players, and 15 for "Sports business-people, coaches, and referees," while Volleyball has 8 total people, and Table Tennis has 5. The 57 articles in American Football reflect a strong American interest that is not the global reality. This is probably the best example of not just "Western" bias, but "American" bias on the vital articles project.
  • Next, "Individuals within the People section represent the pinnacles of their field with a material impact on the course of humanity, such as Albert Einstein 3 in "Inventors and scientists", William Shakespeare 3 in "Authors", and Genghis Khan 3 on "Leaders"." Athletes in general do not have much of a material impact on the course of humanity, athletes in a sport that is popular only in the United States, less so.

Any argument to keep so many articles on American Football players must address these two Points. The point of the vital articles project in my understanding is to include "Vital" articles (based on the Vital article criteria), not "Popular" ones. This removal would free up 57 article slots, and based on other conversations we could potentially move them to sections like "Arts" (this would need to be addressed in a separate discussion though). I think based on the criteria that a vital person should have "a material impact on the course of humanity", we could trim the sports figures dramatically. If any articles are kept for American football, it should be closer to the number allocated to Volleyball based on international interest, however any article kept must be vital to the course of humanity, not just the NFL.

Support
  1. As nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 20:45, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. That list is quite flawed. The metric is "fans". For our purpose, we should count English-speaking fans. Probably 90% of football fans are English speaking leaving us with over 350 million English wikipedian fans of interest. Probably less than 5% of the 850 million table tennis fans are English speaking giving us maybe 40 million English Wikipedia fans of interest for table tennis. So we should not swap in table tennis players for football players.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per TonyTheTiger. That list is atrocious. I would consider myself a fan of table tennis and volleyball in the sense that I would watch it if it was on TV and actively enjoy it but I wouldn't actively seek it or go out of my way to attend events. As an example of how skewed this metric is, the 2024 NCAA Division I women's volleyball tournament was the most-watched volleyball tournament ever. Cumulatively, across 63 games, the total watch-time was 22 million hours [4]. The 2023 Super Bowl had 226 million viewing hours in one game [5]. I agree that maybe the list is a bit bloated but removing everyone or even close to everyone is overkill. There are so many other areas you can pick on if you care about proportional vitality. We list 7 ballet-related personalities in VA4. We list an author Chinghiz Aitmatov  4 in VA4 whose works were barely published in English (and when they were, they were primarily from publishers of little to no repute). We list icons of regional musical genres in VA4 such as qawwali and Persian traditional music. I don't advocate for removing any of these but I feel like the existence of these types of articles implies that if something is of utmost importance to one specific culture/region/country, it has a claim to vitality. And at least American football can back it up with enormous viewing numbers and massive fandoms. →Aurangzebra (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss
  • @TonyTheTiger, "While the vitals list is for the English Wikipedia, the focus is on the world." The Metric of "English speaking fans" is literally Western Bias. Furthermore, this does not address the fact they should have "a material impact on the course of humanity." This isn't about Wikipedian interest, it is about articles that are "Vital." I get that English Wikipedia is dominated by American users, this results in a bias, which we can observe by the disproportionate representation American Football recieves. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Aurangzebra, honestly I don't think athletes are vital in almost all cases unless they did something substantial to change the sport, or outside their sport. Maybe they contribute materially to greenhouse gas emissions substantially, but as individuals on a global level I would not consider them vital. Furthermore, their inclusion is generally a recency bias, as it is unlikely in a century or two 20th century athletes are going to be "vital." How many 18th centry athletes are listed? 17th century? The 20th and 21st century should be allocated an equal amount. I'd support removing everything you listed, but American Football has an undeniable Western Bias, and would start there. Vital articles seems to be a popularity contest in most cases rather then actually addressing what makes something "vital" by the projects criteria. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rebels, revolutionaries and activists changes

[edit]

I was deferring this until the proposal on moving outlaws etc away from this section passed, but without further ado

Add Wat Tyler

[edit]

Leader of the Peasants' Revolt  5, and one of the medieval rebel leaders who is best remembered today.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Gabriela Silang

[edit]

Filipino anti-colonial rebel from the 18th century, still commemorated in the Philippines today and seen as a feminist icon

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Nanny of the Maroons

[edit]

Viewed as one of Jamaica's national heroes

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Tiradentes

[edit]

Led one of the first Brazilian independence movements

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Catherine Théot

[edit]

Not sure if she even belongs here as she was simply a soothsayer, but in any case just seems like a footnote in the French Revolution

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Chris Hani

[edit]

One of the most prominent and charismatic resistance leaders of the late apartheid era, whose assassination was one of the most notorious events of the end of apartheid.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Herbert Macaulay

[edit]

We probably should list a pionner of the independence movement of Africa's most populous country.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Eduardo Mondlane

[edit]

Founded Mozambique's main national liberation organization

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti

[edit]
Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Chico Mendes

[edit]

Widely commemorated

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Iostn (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Leona Helmsley  5

[edit]

Looks like she was infamous for a time due to her statements/behavior but the scale of her crimes does not suggest vitality.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:28, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss


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