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Discussion archive
This is an archive of past discussions with User:S@bre. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
OK firstly, in their stats Valve also refer to the kukri as a 'club', shall we change it to that then?
tf2wiki.net/wiki/Kukri
Secondly, I quote Robin Walker (lead designer) from the most recent interview (with the ever reliable IGN), "... the unlockable medigun we're play testing right now switches out the 10 second invulnerability effect for 10 seconds of 100% chance of critical hits".
uk.pc.ign.com/articles/861/861991p1.html
Third, I'm not sure how much more evidence you need than the only(?) response for a bottle kill being, "Aye, me bottle of scrumpy!". Does it say 'Whisky' on the side of the bottle? I didn't think so, if it does then fair enough.
tf2wiki.net/wiki/Bottle
Well, it seems it still has too many images. Unfortunately beyond concept art and the very sparse in-game cinematics showing them, there's not a lot to represent the characters. So, what shal we do?
Also, given all you've done for the SC pages, you should show this on your user page. Although I've earned it through different types of pages, you certainly fit the description too.
This user is a WikiDragon. ...one of the last of a dying breed...
Unfortunately they were facing each other for most of the vid, so the only good shot of Raynor shows the back of Zeratul's shoulder, and there are no ones facing Zeratul that show Raynor. The Clawed One (talk) 14:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
RE: Opinion on some other fictional species
I think your draft looks pretty good, actually. For Factions of Halo, I have it easier, as both the Flood and Covenant are spinoffs- I just have one to two paragraphs of development/influences to add for the two species I'm merging in for lack of notability, the UNSC and Forerunner. The only thing about putting them all together is you might have to make some content sacrifice for a leaner, easier to follow article- right now, it reads more like "I just stuck together three articles". Good luck, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)11:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
It's all right. I'm going to go through all outsstanding issues now and resolve them. The article is very close to overcoming problems. All Ashnard's issues were resolved, Otterathome's problems have been in the main resolved, with a few remaining only because he's no longer replying to questions I'm posing him. I'll go through the lot and add a comment to say that I believe all outstanding issues have been resolved.
I spoke to SandyGeorgia. We should be able to turn it around fairly quickly, but I can see why you're tempted to let it go for a while. Let me know what you think and we'll go from there. --Gazimoff (talk) 20:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
re:Concern
Thanks for the concern; at least there are a few humans still left on this project. I'm healthy, but unsure as to how I will contribute to Wikipedia, if at all. The standards are fluctuating like crazy and are not worth following, because they'll just change again. Some editors don't know the words "common sense" and "compromise" as well. — Deckiller00:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Re:Demoman
Have you played the game before? i assume you have, so you will have heard his automatic taunt - "Aye, me bottle of scrumpy!" If that is not evidence then i dont know what is ;)
Check the youtube taunts videos as i expect that it contains this. If not, use GCF viewer to open the game file, and you can find the taunt there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purerizzo (talk • contribs) 15:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
The lead is one of the most important parts of any Wikipedia article; its job to summarize the article in 2 to 3 paragraphs in order to familiarize the reader with the structure of the content that you will providing them as well as to give a quick one-minute overview of the topic. Many articles that are processed through Good Article or Featured Article assessments will be heavily scrutinized for a poor lead section.
For articles dealing with video games, a common practice has developed for leads, being a 3-paragraph discussion.
First paragraph
The first paragraph should state the name of the game (using both bold (to identify the article's name) and italics as per the manual of style), along with any other alternate names the game may go by. The genre of the game should be clearly identified as well as the developer and the publisher. If a notable person has been cited by the game as having worked on the game's development (such as Tim Schafer or David Jaffe), this should also be noted. Release dates should be given, along with the release of any ports, remakes, or sequels.
Second paragraph
The second paragraph should summarize the plot briefly in one or two sentences; a high level overview is only needed to set the stage for further discussion. One or two sentences should be included to discuss the gameplay, including any notable features of the game.
Third paragraph
The third paragraph should cover the reception of the game, citing its general critical reaction and any significantly notable successful or failing elements in the game. If the game has won awards, this aspect can be noted, but specific mention of any award is discouraged.
This approach should help you to write a good lead for nearly any game, though this may need to be altered for other games. If there's not a lot of reception information for a game, it may be worthwhile to combine the listed first and third paragraphs into one paragraph. There may be need to talk more about an aspect not normally covered in video game articles (such as with E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (Atari 2600)) which should be noted in the lead.
You expressed interest in expanding Starcraft Ghost article. Have you watched Warren Spector's interview videos that were released last month? He interviewed Mark Morhaime (president of Blizzard) and he told why Ghost was cancelled. Thought you might be interested.
Thank you for such a detailed evaluation! I will do my best to meet the criterea you have outlined. IT's always nice to find someone who really makes the effort, thanks! --Simpsons fan6607:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The article is progressing well, but there is one thing. I don't really want to use the tracklist template, becuase it arranges all the songs in a single column. Since there is 33 songs I didn't want to do this since it creates a lot of white space, which is why I used the custom format in the first place. Would it be alright to keep this or will it need to be changed to upgrade the article quality? --Simpsons fan6611:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Re: I want to pick your brains
Wow, I'm surprised and impressed that a user has took the initiative take precautions to avoid FAR, which is always a last resort. I'll be happy to take a look and give comprehensive feedback. It's probably too late for me today, as I need to watch The Apprentice, so I'll probably have it by tomorrow. Of course, if you need an extra hand with getting any issues fixed I'll give an extra hand too to help. Thanks. AshnardTalkContribs19:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll give you a hand with cleaning up the article when I've got some spare time; I'm afraid I'll be quite busy in the next coming days though. Thanks, S@bre. AshnardTalkContribs20:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll just say that I'm very impressed with what you're doing. I'll put the sandbox on my watchlist and give some feedback here and there. Thanks. AshnardTalkContribs18:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm back at school and am really busy right now, so I can't look over it immediately. I'll try to manage a review some time this week. Thanks. AshnardTalkContribs15:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Re: Species of Starcraft
Per WP:GA?, a GA article should be "stable", and the relevant language is "Nominations for articles that are unstable because of constructive editing should be placed on hold". Species of Starcraft and several other pages have the potential to be radically destabilized by the release of the game. Practical considerations are the fact that there might be whole messes of info you need to add, and which can't just be tacked on, they have to flow with the existing prose. These kinds of edits aren't exactly made to a stable article. I suggest holding off on Starcraft-related promotions until the game comes out. They could pass GA, I'm just not really sure if it's worth doing when the article could change drastically in a month or two (or sixteen, whenever II is coming out... :P) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)00:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The IP is a college one, which means that I can't edit from college due to the actions of some other idiot in the same building as me. However, should the administrator feel it appropriate to maintain the block on the IP due to the anomalous vandalism coming through it, that's fine with me. -- Sabre (talk) 10:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I don't mind the block remaining, as I understand it I should still be able to edit from my personal computer at home (which is where I do the bulk of my editting anyway). It's a bit inconvienent not being able to edit from college, but I can live with that. -- Sabre (talk) 11:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Request for participation in Peer Review of The Orange Box
The Orange Box, an article that you recently commented on at Featured Article nomination, has been put up for peer review. Please can you take the time to re-examine the article for anything that you feel remains an issue. Should you have any comments or concerns, please can you add them to the discussion. It is hoped that once this peer review is complete that the article will be resubmitted for consideration as a featured article.
For taking the initiative to review the quality of the Starcraft FA, and for subsequently rewriting the whole article after my review, especially in such a short period of time. Well done!! AshnardTalkContribs15:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I think as the peer review's gone quiet, it might be worth a second bite at the cherry. Are you happy for me to relist it for FAN? GazimoffWriteRead19:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I am very happy to see, after I saved it from removal a long time ago, you have pushed this article to new heights and made it much better than it ever was. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 18:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Re:StarCraft americanization
I originally made that edit to repair a typo. I wasn't intending to completely change the entire article, and just automatically changed a couple of words. I'll correct it, sorry about that. FusionMix17:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Plot Citations
You know, since it may be some time before SC:L's article on the game script is back up, you may want to consider citing the game script itself as a source, like I did on this page. The Clawed One (talk) 21:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I wish I had another site with the script myself, as a project I'm doing needs the game script and without SC:L's I can't find one, and thus begins the tedious process of replaying each map, or opening it in the editor, one by one.
I looked at your revision - I do think the grouping per class type (as within the game, so not OR) is good, though I'm still a little concerned at the details of the guns specific to each class; unless both weapons are really notable, I'd only focus on the unique one for each. Also, I'm assuming that the character descriptions (the Scout being a Boston boy, the medic being German) can be sourced appropriately. However, it is overall much better. --MASEM00:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
RE: HL2 & the Orange Box
Ah, I see. So perhaps HL2 is the next one we should work on (if you're not to busy with StarCraft...) after getting Orange to FA? What's happening with that? Sorry I wasn't there for it to help you to do the revisions during the review. I'll have a look through the comments now though. I'm going through section by section, attempting to clean up the prose and format at the moment. clicketyclickyaketyyak23:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! And thank you for those links, which I'll also look at now. I was just skimming through your rewrite and the amount of red had my head spinning. That was so much work; it must have taken you at the very least a full week or two. So then TF2 and Episode 2 are the main focus right now? I'd love to help out with TF2, so I guess you'll soon find me reverting your edits there too. :oP clicketyclickyaketyyak23:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't see it in the FAC nom. Someone there merely brought up the use of the word "admitted" and wondered about the word choice because it was not clear to him (due to a previous removal of the phrase that he was known for his acerbic-tongued criticism). I did not see this brought up as an issue in the peer review either. Care to point me to it? In any case, it is relevant to his praise of Portal because he notes that his praise is unusual in the very act of saying those things that are quoted in the article. Perhaps we can rework the stuff about his reviewing style if you find that the two adjectives describing it is a backlog, but it is important to mention that his praise is unusual, nor do I see any challenge to it by FAC reviewers, so no need to panic I don't think. clicketyclickyaketyyak17:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
He merely took issue with describing him as "acerbic-tongued" because it is an encyclopedia, which is a different objection than undue weight. Acerbic-tongued is what you might call peacock or flowery language and has a tone of bias. In any case, I am all in favour or a brief mention, but what you suggested ( "The normally harsh reviewer for the Escapist, Ben whats-his-name, admitted he could not fault it, and that Portal") is, I thought, effectively what the anon IP inserted prior to your RV. I just don't like the word "harsh" as it seems a bit judgmental to me (i.e. saying that he is overly critical or goes too hard on games) and I like the word "acerbic". I'll try again—tell me if you like it. clicketyclickyaketyyak17:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The Gameplay section is a crucial component of a good video game article. Although it may be relatively easy for an experienced gamer to write such a section, care must be taken to maintain an appropriate focus and balance. The section should be written for readers with little or no knowledge of video gaming and should not be filled with detailed information about weapons, levels, or other such topics that are only of interest to the video gamer or that might be found in a game guide. Your goal for crafting a good section is to have people who have never picked up the game understand the basic mechanics. Do note, however, that it's safe to assume the reader has at least a minor knowledge of what a video game is.
This section often begins the body text after the lead, but is sometimes placed after the Plot section. Games with little or no story can cover the plot in the Gameplay section. When writing about a game, use your head and common sense about the ordering. Generally, start off with a broad stroke—is the game a RTS or an FPS, etc. Don't talk about why the gameplay is like it is; generally, that is better placed in the 'Development' section later on in the article.
Images can be added to better illustrate some aspects of gameplay. Generally, a single screenshot will suffice. Because of screenshots are non-free content, usage should be minimalised. Multiple images can be used, but all images should add something to the article beyond what the prose states. All non-free images require a fair use rationale to be used on Wikipedia.
Things to remember
Don't add in cruft about weapons, levels, and minute details of trivia; gameplay sections should serve as a primer to the game, not an exhaustive list of every facet of the game.
Don't use gaming jargon which can be confusing to readers, such as "NPC" or "MMORPG". If you use these terms, state the full name and the abbreviation the first time it appears. For example, "Halo is a first-person shooter, or FPS."
Wikilink! So you don't have to describe what a god game is, link it.
Talk about what makes the game different from others; if you only talk about why StarCraft is a real-time strategy game, then readers could just visit the article about the game genre and be better served.
I would say that although gameplay/development are short, the plot section is reasonable in length; a paragraph per campaign seems decent, and you have the reception to balance it out. You might want to get a non-Starcraft player to look over the gameplay, but I think it covers all the bases (new units, et al) and there's always the referral link. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)11:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the support. The idea of adding a comparison screenshot for realMyst stupidly never struck me; I added in one now, but do you think I should go with that one (which shows the difference between the old screenshot earlier and this one) or this one (which shows more vista not seen)? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)21:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
(a message I left on WPVG talk page)
In archive 41, we talked about sending video game series task forces into whole Publisher task forces. Example: Devil May Cry to Capcom. I would like to request that the actual creators of the task forces would meet here to discuss the issue I talk of in Archive 41.GearsOf War01:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Argentan Overview.jpg}
Thank you for uploading Image:Argentan Overview.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale provided for using this image under "fair use" may not meet the criteria required by Wikipedia:Non-free content. This can be corrected by going to the image description page and add or clarify the reason why the image qualifies for fair use. In particular, for each page the image is used on, the image must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Can you please check:
That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's escription page for each article the image is used in.
That every article it is used on is linked to from its description page.
Please be aware that a fair use rationale is not the same as an image copyright tag; descriptions for images used under the fair use policy require both a copyright tag and a fair use rationale.
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Image copyright problem with Image:DoDS Class Selection.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:DoDS Class Selection.jpg. You've indicated that the image is being used under a claim of fair use, but you have not provided an adequate explanation for why it meets Wikipedia's requirements for such images. In particular, for each page the image is used on, the image must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Can you please check
That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for each article the image is used in.
That every article it is used on is linked to from its description page.
I agree with the image thing, and since Ubisoft publishes the game now there shouldn't be an issue with fair use (I'm going to migrate the final choices to commons when able.) I've used Image:Riven-prison.png for the main gameplay, but if you can find the screen you were talking about, feel free to replace it (I had issues finding good-quality screenshots.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)00:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I would actually just add some more horizontal padding to the image, which would shrink it slightly... do you have the original image? I can try and make the edges a little crisper then what you currently have... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)18:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. I can get rid of some of the jaggies, but since it's so small I can't get rid of them all without cutting the guy down significantly. I did find this image, which I can easily get rid of the black and scale down, but obviously it's not as good a pose. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)21:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
No need to worry. StarCraft is a pretty notable game and even if individual locations are not themselves notable, the overall universe probably is. It really does just need cleanup, and I'm trying to bring more articles under the scrutiny of good video game editors like yourself. If and when you get around to it, don't hesitate to bring some other VG editors along with you by going to the WP:VG talk page. Randomran (talk) 21:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Development content is very important to include in an encyclopedic video game article. It provides a history of how the game came to be and provides real world information needed for an article to claim comprehensiveness. However, writing this section can be difficult because the amount and type of information available will vary for each game. One of the best sources for such information is a developer interview. These can provide insight into the thought process of the designers and give examples of influences and obstacles encountered. Previews can also be helpful by giving a snap shot of the game before it was released and may mention development issues that were still being addressed.
When writing about development, common sense should be used to organize content to maintain a sense of flow for the reader. Most times, it is best to give the information in a somewhat chronological order—though information can also be grouped by topics like audio, promotion, graphics, etc. If one such topic gets large enough, it can be split off into its own subsection or regular section. For example, Kingdom Hearts#Audio is a separate section from the rest of the development information because it focuses on the game's musical score and voice acting. Portal (video game)#Soundtrack, however, does not have as much content and is a subsection of the main development section.
What to include about development
Who are the developers? Which company or studio developed the game, and are there any prominent designers involved?
When did development begin?
When and where was the game first announced? (e.g. Tokyo Game Show, E3 Media and Business Summit, etc.)
What influenced the game's story, characters, music, and/or gameplay ? (e.g. past games, movies, books, etc.)
Were there any delays?
Was anything excluded because of time or technological constraints? (e.g. extra levels, game modes, characters, story arcs, etc.)
Things to remember
Avoid proseline. Though maintaining a sense to chronology is important, this section should not read like an ordered list of events.
Images in this section should be relevant to the information given and should add on to it.
Source everything to avoid information being tagged as original research.
So anyway, I saw on WT:VG you were interested in helping out with all the Myst stuff... I think I've got the games (at least the five main ones) under control, but even with my experience with fictional characters those are definitely the hardest to work on (especially Myst canon, right now its just a merged train wreck.) So any help you can give would be great. There are 2 FAs, that just leaves 10 more articles to improve and promote :P ...By the way, I totally forgot to reply. I tried my hand at cleaning up the Vortignaut and I can’t get him anywhere besides the jaggy side (he’s not high-res enough that you can clip the jagged pixels off the model without a loss of important geometry. On the other hand, I think the jaggies are still better than the extreme feathered look, but whatever.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)15:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
If it's a video game I can clean it up good enough, I guess. But I’ve never played the games and would be a little more out of my element (actually, it’s kind of sad I’m working on all this anyway, as I’ve only ever played Myst and Exile :P) But any help you can give would be great :)- I’m going to try and get Exile up to FAC within a week or so, and I’m starting in on Revelation. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)15:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Orphaned non-free media (Image:Game Music Vol. 1 (StarCraft).jpg)
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New source
Kevin Rorabaugh, “How Hardcore Are You? Your proudest gaming moments: The next contestant in our monthly harder-core-than-thou competition arrives!” in Electronic Gaming Monthly 228 (May 2008): 10. Made a potato launching replica of the M41 SSR MAV/AW Rocket Launcher from Halo; features a photograph as well and set aside from other letters to the editor in special colored box in magazine Anyway, I am notifying you and David Fuchs in case if either believe it can be used in the articles (I am not a Halo expert per se). Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho!01:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
No problem, I haven't had much time to devote to it either; my editings been rather frazzled. All the info for reception is basically in the reviews for (primarily) Myst IV and V, we've got to sort through the online and print sources to find info, but yeah, I've been distracted too... :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)17:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a big fan of Google tests, but Saturn (the car company) is the top hit for the term, the Wikipedia article for the planet is second. I think it's not out of proportion to recognize that many people who wind up on the planet article may be looking for the car company, and vice versa. The idea that the disambig is adequate was widely discussed in the case of apple and Apple Inc. and it ultimately made the most sense to hatnote link between the two most common uses of the term. I think the same is true here, and makes just as much sense for Saturn and Saturn Corporation. ʝuѕтɛn16:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
In many video game articles, the Reception section is the last main section of prose. As its name suggests, within the section you should summarize the critical reaction to the game. The section should provide a high-level overview of what the critics liked and didn’t like about the game; it is a summary, not a repetition of what publications thought. Therefore, don’t put in excessive, long winded quotes or have a paragraph detailing IGN’s thoughts on the game. To prevent cluttering of the prose with scores, reviews table such as {{VG Reviews}} can be used to organize this kind of information.
A good way to lead off the section is a by-the-numbers or at a glance snapshot of the game’s reception; you can use aggregate scores to suggest an overall critical response to the game, and can provide sales figures (if you have them) for the game’s release. Commonly, the rest of the reception is broken into positive and negative paragraphs. Entirely separate ‘Praise’ and ‘Controversy’ or ‘Negative comments’ or the like are strongly discouraged as troll magnets. If the game has won any awards, then listing them at the bottom of the reception section is an option.
Other things to remember:
Don’t list every single review in the reviews table; likewise, don’t mention every award the game has ever gotten.
Generally, talk about what the reviewers say rather than speaking for them; for example, “Reviewer X of Publication Y took issue with elements of the game such as X, Y, and Z” instead of “Review X said that “I took issue with elements of the game such as X, Y, and Z.” If a reviewer has a good comment which sums up the positive/negative/overall reaction, or a particular sentiment common in many reviews, it might be more appropriate to use.
If adding sales data, make sure to provide context; did it sell those 4.2 million units within three months of release or three years? If possible, break down the sales by region; did the Japanese like the game, but Americans not buy it?
Use reviews whose scores are outliers from the average ratings to find key points that were liked or disliked about a game. If all reviews except for one average around a 9 out of 10, and the one is a 7 out of 10, there is probably some clear negative points to be found in it; the same works with very positive reviews.
Perhaps most importantly, give proper weight and keep a neutral point of view. If the game received mostly negative scores, having three paragraphs on positive aspects and glossing over the bad parts in a sentence or two conveys the wrong impression to readers.
Hi, you recently updated the Faramir article to put the text into present tense, whilst this is a standard for most articles the Middle earth guidlines are that articles should be in a past tense
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