This is an archive of past discussions about Russian invasion of Ukraine. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Someone is reverting and re-adding the Peace section to this article which is already covered in two other Wikipedia articles. It is a fully Redundant section. It already has its own article at Main article: 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations. Also it is covered in the new 2022 Reactions article created last week. Is there support for keeping three copies of this section on Wikipedia, or should it be deleted from this 2022 Invasion article? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Hello, someone removed without reason the Peace efforts section. It is a significant topic, which is very relevant to the article, so it should be mentioned here, there is no reason to delete it. It already has its own article, therefore, the link should be mentioned here, it is a significant topic. For these, there should be a paragraph with a link (it is not anywhere in the article). Jirka.h23 (talk) 15:09, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
What is the reason? Are you saying that this topic is redundant? I definitely cannot agree with that, it is an important topic, which can affect the entire invasion and definitely related to this article - and not for another article about the war, as these negotiations began just from the beginning of this invasion. As I still do not see a reason for deleting the text from the stable version, I request its restoration. Jirka.h23 (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
@Jirka.h23: I believe what Slatersteven meant was that if there is disagreement about it, we need to discuss it first before re-adding it (otherwise it can quickly become an WP:EDITWAR). We can do it right here, and I'll start by saying that I agree that the section should be in the article. It is very reasonable for a casual reader (for whom we are writing this encyclopedia) to ask about a possible peace. And yes, we have a standalone article, but it's not comfortable for a reader to have to type and search for it, when we have dozens and dozens more of wikilinks to far less interesting things in the article. A (short!) section on the peace efforts should be here. It is actually fairly commonplace to have such a short excerpts in a longer article, and link to the main article there. We even have a template just for that, Template:Main. That's not "redundant", that's good practice. So I support the re-addition. --LordPeterII (talk) 15:50, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
First of all, Slatersteven and ErnestKrause I apologize if I rushed this a bit and if I was unpleasant (I didn't liked that revert, and that after the first revert I got a warning about edit war on my talk page). But Slatersteven is right, if there is disagreement, it should be discussed first. Anyway, I went through the history and found out that this paragraph was here until 11 August, when user ErnestKrause deleted it (who reverted my edit), so if there was a mention of it about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article), it should be him, who should defend the change of this article. I just basically reverted it to the stable version. Anyway, I agree with LordPeterII, that the section on the peace efforts with link to the main article should be here and that it's not 'redundant', it is one of the important things in relation to the invasion and therefore to the subject of this article. I suggest reverting to the previous state. Jirka.h23 (talk) 05:14, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
Support for Slatersteven on this. The Peace subsection being discussed here was never "removed" from Wikipedia, but it was split into a new Wikipedia article here on 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions. A page split is different than removing an article on Wikipedia, and the full text of the Peace subsection can be read in its entirety on the new Reactions article which I've just linked above. In addition to that, there is also the Peace article on Wikipedia which discusses the details of the Invasion peace attempts for those interested in this history. These are currently linked in the Invasion article for readers who need to read the details. That means that there are already two versions of the Peace subsection on Wikipedia, and re-adding a third one in this article seems redundant. Three copies of essentially the same material in three Wikipedia articles is redundant and not consistent with Wikipedia editing policy. I'm supporting the comments made by Slatersteven on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
It should be brief mentioned/summarised and a link to the main WP should of course be added. I've had a brief look at the edit in question and it looks summarised and brief enough if you ask me. Basedosaurus (talk) 12:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
The peace efforts have gone nowhere so far and will likely go nowhere in the future, but the media provides a lot of reports and commentary on these efforts, which is all that matters for inclusion. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I think that users ErnestKrause and Slatersteven have not presented any serious explanations why this important information, which mainly affects the topic of this article, should be removed from this article. This paragraph was here until 11 August, and since consensus was not found, moreover 3:2 were in favor to preserve the text, it should be returned to the stable version that were here for about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article). Jirka.h23 (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
I agree, it should be re-added, as I have said above. No convincing argument against its inclusion has been given; we have such short-summarising-sections-with-a-link-to-the-main-page in literally hundreds of Wikipedia articles. @ErnestKrause and Slatersteven: If you can't stand the section at all, I invite you to start an RfC on it; but I'm not going to begin another one about such a trivial thing. Please go ahead and re-add that part, Jirka.h23. –LordPickleII (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
I've added another link to the Peace article from the Reactions section. In addition to the previously made link to the new 2022 Reactions article, the Reaction article section on Peace also links the Peace talks discussion as presented in that article. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
There is no consensus for restoring your edit and forcing it into the article. Your edit is reverted until you establish consensus. Both Slatersteven and myself have reverted your edit by Wikipedia policy for BRD. Establish consensus on Talk page prior to further edits in the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
You are wrong, there is no consensus to remove it from the stable version. It is you who should find a consensus. Anyway, now it is 3:2 to keep the paragraph. So do not delete that sourced text, it is very related to the article. Not following Wikipedia policy (not found consensus for your change from the stable version, deleting sourced text) may lead to your blocking, take it as a warning. Jirka.h23 (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: If you do not believe consensus is reached, kindly start a WP:RfC. I strongly suspect it would fail, because neither of you has given any policy-based reasoning for excluding the info. What do you think Template:Main exists for? It's to deal with cases exactly like these. Sorry if I was too quick, but it doesn't make sense to me that you would use "no consensus" as a reason to exclude the content indefinitely, when you have neither argumentative nor numerical support in the discussion. To give some more info on my view: I am arguing based on WP:SS, a guideline that clearly is in favour of "content duplication" like the one in question here. Also, don't forget that we are writing an encyclopedia for a reader: You might be perfectly right if this was an archive, and you'd not want duplicate information, as anyone could take their time and research, or ask you as the archivist. But Wikipedia is used by many different people, everyday, who have no idea how an ideal structure would look like, and who are likely not thinking "Hey, this invasion sounds pretty bad, I wonder why they don't make peace? I'll now scroll down to the Reactions section, open the correct one of the six linked articles there, and then scroll down until I find the corresponding section, then click the article linked there, and voilá, I've already found it!" Don't expect a 10 or 70 year old random internet user to be able to do that. We need the to write for our WP:AUDIENCE, that is, put the readers first. Think about it, and maybe you can understand why we want to restore that section. –LordPickleII (talk) 20:56, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
LordPickleII, user ErnestKrause is not a very experienced editor, he started editing (very actively) last year, maybe he doesn't know what is WP:RfC. I don't know what to do in such cases, I still believe that we can come to an understanding here.Jirka.h23 (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
@Jirka.h23: I have respect for ErnestKrause because they have contributed a lot to this article. Maybe they haven't edited that long, but their edits are high-quality mostly; anyway I was a bit quick to suggest a RfC. Btw, I've just checked and see you have achieved a Featured Article even, @ErnestKrause, nice!
I had participated in some discussions lately that grinded to a halt for no reason, so sorry if I was a little snarky there. Your contributions are appreciated, and I hope you can see both I and Jirka.h23 don't want to make the article worse, we really believe that the short "Peace efforts" section would benefit the article greatly. I hope you and Slatersteven can reconsider; I wouldn't even mind an even shorter section, as long as there is an easy way for readers to be informed that "peace talks happened, yielded no result, for more details please click here". –LordPickleII (talk) 19:23, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
There is already the link I added in response to Based above in the Reactions section of this article which mentions the peace process and links the article which already includes the full copy of the Peace section being discussed here on Talk, which states: "Reactions to the invasion have varied considerably across a broad spectrum of concerns including media responses, peace efforts and the examination of the legal implications of the invasion." I'm agreeing with Slatersteven that re-duplicating that section here in this article is unnecessary. Also, the topic of Peace is normally discussed as an answer to War, such as the Wikipedia article for the Russo-Ukraine War, and not in response to an "invasion" in and of itself. Is there a reason why the editors here, Jirka and LordPeter, have not even tried to place the Peace section in the Russo-Ukraine War article where this discussion appears to have a better placement. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I am agreeing with the editors that the subject merits its own section. I believe that a section on the peace efforts, including the discarded Minsk agreements, should be included in Russo-Ukraine War and the War in Donbas too. Any new peace process will mostly be in response to the recent invasion, which is a part of a longer conflict but constitutes a significant escalation and flagrant violation of the Mink agreements. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: This article here is presently "ongoing" in the news. I am reading it to inform myself about the ongoing crisis, and, although that is only anecdotal, all of my irl friends and acquaintances do only read this article. Yes, from a professional, academic point of view you might be right; but if this was a library, with finished, printed books, then the Invasion wouldn't be your to-go article, and you would start with the war overview. I would not mind having several more "Peace efforts" sections in other articles if you'd like that, but I am specifically voting to have one here, based on my arguments above. Can you at least acknowledge them? I just see no guideline- or policy-based rational for your decision to exclude them, and several more editors have spoken in favour of re-adding them. This must not become an edit war; but this must also not become an instance were two editors can block something for abstract reasons. Repeating that you agree with Slatersteven does not make your point any more convincing: It's the opinion of you two, and I can respect that. But consensus can overrule an opinion, and you must accept that possibility. If you do not wish to bring new arguments, I am going to start an RfC. –LordPickleII (talk) 17:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: Well, how is this POV-pushing? This isn't about my personal views (if you are interested in these:*start POV* I would love peace, but I can only see that coming once Russia is pushed back. Peace efforts until then are futile, Ukraine needs weapons. *end POV*), it's purely about policy and consensus. That you bring up an AfD policy now is at least a fresh development – could you link to it please? In any case, I think an WP:RfC is really warranted now, as the only way to get this to a conclusion without bad blood. I shall start one. –LordPickleII (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
ErnestKrause, I do not consider mention of it on other pages to be so important, mainly because they are directly related to this article and this year's invasion, on sites like the Russo-Ukraine War and others it can also be mentioned, but it should be found mainly here. ErnestKrause and Slatersteven do you think there is any point in convincing you and that you could change your mind? Now it is 4:2 to leave the paragraph, but I would like to resolve this with you as well. Regards Jirka.h23 (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
I can add no more to what I have already said, this is not about the war, its, about a campaign. We do not (for example) discuss peace talks in the article about the battle of the bulge or Verdun. Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
You didn't say this before, what do you mean "not about the war", it is all about the war, more specifically about this invasion, the peace negotiations started after this invasion, so it relates exactly to this article, I see no reason to delete these important events. So in this case, if only two users are pushing the article change, we could be forced to use the RfC. Or one more question, I'm going to repeat myself, but you still haven't answered it here, if this paragraph was here until 11 August, when user ErnestKrause deleted it, and there was a mention of it about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article), it should be him, who should defend the change of this article, meanwhile, according to the rules, the article should change to a stable state, am I right? Jirka.h23 (talk) 12:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
My OP "Yes it should not be here, it needs to be mentioned in the article about the war", my stance was always this is not an article about the wider war, so any material that is more about the wider war should be in that article. All I just did was to elaborate more on why. I have had my say, I can add no more other than to reiterate the same arguments worded in different ways. There is no point in continuously pining me for my opinion, you have it. But you are correct, if this was long-standing content, (how long was it here?) then yes, the onus should be on those wishing to remove it to get consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
"my stance was always this is not an article about the wider war, so any material that is more about the wider war should be in that article." If I understand it correctly, you don't mind this mention in the broader article, but here, which discusses this year's invasion, it does. In that case, that makes no sense to me, the peace talks have a direct connection to this invasion, in the wider article also many other connections can be discussed. Anyway, if that's the case, we'll take your opinion into consideration. But thanks for confirming my point, and so I ask again ErnestKrause to stop meanwhile removing this paragraph.Jirka.h23 (talk) 12:47, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Support of Slatersteven, who is making perfectly good sense. Also, Wikipedia is not a forum for polling or voting. Establishing consensus is not a tally of votes. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Good that you agree with him, so now you can try to find a consensus, or create an RfC to remove the paragraph. But I ask you again not to delete the paragraph straight away.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
This article is about the post-2022 phase of the Russo-Ukrainian war which is a part of the wider war. It looks like it will overshadow the previous 8 years of the conflict which means that there is quite a lot of overlap. Ideally we should agree on some kind of a framework but I think we are not there yet. In the meantime the reader (who might have come via a wikilink from the Main Page) is likely to be interested in knowing about the peace negotiations and therefore this article should have a short summary and a link to the main article on the negotiations. Alaexis¿question?10:23, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The general approach in the international press has been that there have been three phases in the Russo-Ukraine War since the annexation of Crimea. The first was the process of the anexation of Crimea itself, which was followed by an Interim Period of conflict between Russia and Ukraine mostly in the Donbas region, which was followed by the two phases of the current 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Discussion here on the Talk page should be consistent with the general approach taken in the international press about the Russo-Ukraine War as a whole. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:15, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I do not disagree with this but I don't see how it refutes (or supports, for that matter) my argument that a short summary here would be helpful. Alaexis¿question?18:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you that there should be at least a brief paragraph. Two editors have tried to remove it, but have not yet found a consensus. You are already the fifth person who is in favor of its preservation. We have agreed to leave the stable version for now.Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
There is no consensus at present on the Talk page and your edit is reverted according to Wikipedia policy for BRD. Two editors have already notified you on your Talk page that you appear to be edit warring against Wikipedia policy. Could I ask that you stop edit warring. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:24, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Do you understand the written word? There is no consensus for removal the paragraph. As agreed, the page returns to the stable version before your editing (also with the second editor who firstly reverted). Find consensus for removal first, otherwise you can be blocked for not following the Wikipedia policy. Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:47, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause:The general approach in the international press has been that there have been three phases in the Russo-Ukraine War since the annexation of Crimea. [...] – meaning? I'm sorry, I just really can't follow your reasoning. If you point to the press reaction, then the peace efforts were definitely covered, and almost exclusively as a result of the current invasion. I agree that longer term, we may need some restructuring. But at present, all news are talking about the Invasion, nothing else, because it is ongoing and the major development in what had otherwise been a relatively "restrained" war. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:19, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I've reverted the renewed addition of this section as it does not appear to me that clear consensus has been reached. If the talk page is deadlocked, someone should call an wp:RfC.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Ermenrich yes, consensus was not reached for your edit (removal of the sourced content) and five people are against. Therefore the page returns to stable version, find first consensus for removal of the paragraph. Thanks.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes it is. I have returned it on 27 August, this paragraph was here until 11 August, when you deleted it, so it was just 16 days, and there was a mention of it about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article). As said Slatersteven, the onus should be on those wishing to remove it to get consensus, and I agree on that.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
You appear to be edit warring against multiple editors who have asked you to stop edit warring until Talk page discussion for BRD is completed. Your edit is reverted. Can I ask that you stop your serial reverts to this article which multiple editors have asked you to stop doing on your Talk page. Both Slatersteven and Ermenrich have asked that you stop edit warring on your Talk page. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:34, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Please do not lie. It is only you who is forcing your edit against stable version (with the second we agrred that you shold first find consesus for removal of sourced content). I think that the page should be locked against your disruptive editing.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:41, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Ok, I was wrong if you both start with "E" :-) So there are two of you, it doesn't change the fact that he should first find a consensus to remove the long-standing paragraph. Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Your are presently edit warring and reverting against multiple editors on the article main space. Could I ask that you stop edit warring against multiple editors who have also contacted you on your Talk page. Could you revert your edit and return to the Talk page here for discussion following Wikipedia policy for BRD? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:50, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I think we should have an RfC. Something along the lines "Q1: Should this article describe the peace negotiations that took place in 2022?", "Q2: If yes, should there be a dedicated session for it?", "Q3, if yes, should we adopt version X and then improve it incrementally?" Alaexis¿question?20:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
consensus has finally reached, 6:3 for keeping this section. The only issue now is how it should look. For whose interested, please share your opinion at the section at the bottom. Thank you all! Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk)
@Super ninja2: Consensus is not a vote tally, it is based on majority and arguments. I think we will have a RfC, it's cleaner at this point. I agree it should also include a second question on how such a section should look, as suggested by Alaexis. I'll write one up when I find time (or motivation). But discussion can ofc resume in the meantime, so we have a selection of options for the second question. –LordPickleII (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
In the second to last paragraph under the section 'Effects on Russian forces', in the fourth to last sentence, there is a typo: 'They must past a physical test'. Stephanos100 (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Change the link at the bottom of the sidebar (title "Casualties and losses") from "#Casualties_and_humanitarian_impact" to "#Casualties_and_refugees" as the heading was changed in a previous edit. Bemoty (talk) 17:58, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I have seen numbers indicating Russia has committed as many as 300,000 troops to Ukraine, and that was about a month ago, these current strength estimates are only based off of pre invasion forces stationed on the Ukrainian border, so it should definitely be updated. History Man1812 (talk) 17:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There appears no support for this whatsoever from any editor and no prior Talk page discussion of any kind. Possibly consider starting Talk about this and seeing if even a single editor is in agreement. At present there appears to be no support for this request. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The early days of the war were a very complicated time that we could write about in much more detail. Currently, it's just compressed down to a list of events with no big picture and this article is still at 356k bytes. This is barely readable. The actual invasion had a distinct start (February 24th) and end (April 4th) date. In this time, the Russians had a distinct invasion plan that failed. I think we should not mix this up with the consolidation of forces and the war of attrition that has been taking place since; therefore, I propose splitting this article into 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and Russo-Ukrainian War, with the current article at Russo-Ukrainian War being moved to Russo-Ukrainian Conflict. Seriously, random sniping incidents in the Donbas and naval tensions were not a war in the same way as a meat grinder with static front lines is not an invasion. It should not take precident over or even be lumped in with an actual major land war with hundreds of thousands being killed. ᗞᗴᖇᑭᗅᒪᗴᖇᎢ (talk) 22:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
This would be like if the article Iraq War was about the Gulf war, US funding of Kurdish seperatists, the no-fly zone, and the actual Iraq War with 90s international politics having a bigger section on the article than the actual war and the article US invasion of Iraq being about the entire 2003-2011 period. ᗞᗴᖇᑭᗅᒪᗴᖇᎢ (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
A slow failed invasion with withdrawals is still an invasion, Russian troops are still in Ukraine. We have to reflect what reliable sources say and none of them are clearly saying "the invasion is over" which is what would be required to make this change. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 22:53, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. The argument against a split is that there aren't any sources which treat April 4th as the end of the invasion, so it would be based on inaccurate synthesis. Russia's invasion remains an invasion, there's no arbitrary cut-off date. The argument against the page move proposal (Russo-Ukrainian War --> Russo-Ukrainian conflict) is that Russian attacked Ukraine in 2014 and a number of sources can be found which call the conflict since 2014 the "Russo-Ukrainian War". That said, I'm also not sure "Russo-Ukrainian War" is really the common name for the conflict since 2014, and I suspect most current media usages of the term are actually referring to the ongoing full-scale invasion. I think there's a case for such a move, and having "Russo-Ukrainian War" redirect to this invasion article, but that's discussion would belong on that article's talk page and would be highly controversial. Jr8825 • Talk23:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Sorry, but a "Russo-Ukrainian war" would imply a war between Russia and Ukraine in some form. See where I'm going at here? Also, an invasion is still an invasion. That part was the first phase, then came the Battle of Donbass, and now we have the counteroffensives. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. Russia invaded Ukraine, failed to make the desired progress and was even repelled, but parts of Ukraine are still under Russian control. Furthermore, there are no sources talking about the initial invasion ending on April 4th, which is original research. So there's no reason to add an artificial split in the middle of the war. Chaotic Enby (talk) 23:43, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I believe they're talking about the Kyiv offensive which was abandoned in early April. In other words, not the Russian main goal for the invasion at this time (except that ISW claimed that). Dawsongfg (talk) 00:11, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I agree we need to better organise the topic of the Russo-Ukrainian War, but I don't think the split needs to be made from this article, as the invasion is just the latest part of the war. I think Russo-Ukrainian War should be renamed to Russo-Ukrainian War (2014-2022), describing the three main stages starting from Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation (renamed to Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea), War in Donbas (2014–2022) (renamed to Russo-Ukrainian War in Donbas (2014–2022)), and this article (under the current title). This is how we structure it on the Ukrainian Wikipedia [1]. IntrepidContributor (talk) 00:03, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Interesting suggestion. Those renamings could be supported, instead of a split. There was some chronological detail in the Russo-Ukrainian War article that was lost in rapid edits and summarizing, in the need to write about the more massive 2022 invasion. This led to the elimination of some specific points (2014, 2015, 2016 events etc.) that at the time, seemed WP:NOTNEWS but actually were useful in chronology in a way that would pass WP:TENYEARS especially today and in a few years. For example this early 2021 revision of the Russo-Ukrainian War article. (which is actually more precise/direct about Russian proxies than I remember, as the most key reliable sources were saying.) The old state of the article sometimes highlights surprising parallels between the 2014 smaller Russian invasion and the 2022 Russian full scale invasion. Also to refute the original split idea, the severity of the Battle of Ilovaisk provides significance to the "Russo-Ukrainian War (2014-2022)" category. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 01:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Also I did not mean to say anything too obvious to people who are already experts on the topic, I just like to link everything. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 01:07, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. I disagree with absolutely everything of the rationale. The war from 24 February to today is the same conflict, and no invasion ended on 4 April 2022. SuperΨDro16:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The initiative of the conflict is starting to switch towards Ukraine with counteroffensives for example on the Kherson-Mykolaiv and Izyum-Kupiansk fronts. With that being said the focus of the war is not anymore on the South-eastern offensive (Second phase of this article). Are these events significant enough to speak of a third phase in this war? I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 10:38, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it's fair to say this war has entered a third phase. Outside observers at the end of August were describing the conflict as having come to a stalemate: neither side seemed able to make much headway against the other. (Unless you consider the Russian brutal & costly grind thru the Donbass region "headway".) But Ukraine has surprised everyone by first her advance in the Kherson region, & now her lightning breakthrough north of Izium. The dynamic of the war has changed from Ukraine being on the defensive, trading territory for Russian losses, to Russia on the defensive, needing to respond & contain these two new threats. -- llywrch (talk) 15:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
The international press appears to be moving in the direction that the Ukrainian counteroffensive may have slowed down or stalled following Russian reallocation of troops and reconcentration of forces on the front lines to thwart Ukrainian progress in the counteroffensive. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:31, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
That may be the case in Kherson, but top-rate sources such as Reuters are today describing the counteroffensive around Kupiansk as "threatening to turn into a rout". [2] That said, as always we need to be cautious of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in characterising this a new phase ourselves, we need to find sources which are saying this explicitly. Jr8825 • Talk13:37, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Alaexis, I have reverted your addition because the idea that Boris Johnson single-handedly prevented the war from ending is being pushed by Kremlin-aligned sources and does not accurately represent what at least one of the sources you cited says. I cannot access the Foreign Affairs article, but Ukrainska Pravda says the following:
"The Russian side…was actually ready for the Zelenskyy-Putin meeting. But two things happened, after which a member of the Ukrainian delegation, Mykhailo Podoliak, had to openly admit that it was "not the time" for the meeting of the presidents.
The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories… The second "obstacle" to agreements with the Russians arrived in Kyiv on 9 April."
The second reason, after the atrocities, was the visit of Boris Johnson, who assured Zelensky of the west's collective support. Then Zelensky called for two agreements, one with Russia and one with security guarantors, and then the peace deal fell through. The Ukrainska Pravda article is here for anyone to see who disagrees with my presentation.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
@Ermenrich: While I have been advocating for a "Peace efforts" section above, I agree and thank you for this revert. It might have been completely unintentional on Alaexis's part, but that prose really read extremely distorted from reliable reportings on these events. –LordPickleII (talk) 19:34, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
@Ermenrich excuse me but what you say is unreasonable. You talk like Johnson is by his own but he is not, he was the British prime minister meaning that he used to represent the British government! So he didn't "single-handedly" interfere in the peace talks as you say.
You said that the article said: "The Russian side…was actually ready for the Zelenskyy-Putin meeting [...]" but I'd like to add that it ALSO said "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with." And the second is that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not." You shouldn't pick on part and leave the other.
What you've written misses the point. It does not change the fact that he is listed in the article as the second reason for the collapse of peace talks. The first reason was the Russian atrocities. Alaexis's addition did not mention them and was framed as though the West prevented peace (whether intentionally or not).--Ermenrich (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I'll quote the relevant part of the Foreign Affairs article here for everyone's convenience
“
According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.
@Alaexis and Super ninja2: Please note that there has been an unresolved discussion above about whether to include a "Peace efforts" section at all. I think the discussion of a "how should it look?" should be postponed until we have clarity about that.
@Jirka.h23, Slatersteven, ErnestKrause, Basedosaurus, and IntrepidContributor: I believe this is actually an issue in favour of having a Peace section here that is actively maintained through consensus, rather than re-added periodically with potentially pointed and undue statements. Is anyone of you in favour of keeping the current section? Because I believe the old one was far superior. –LordPickleII (talk) 09:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The general approach in the international press has been that there have been three phases in the Russo-Ukraine War since the annexation of Crimea. The first was the process of the annexation of Crimea itself, which was followed by an Interim Period of conflict between Russia and Ukraine mostly in the Donbas region, which was followed by the two phases of the current 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Discussion here on the Talk page should be consistent with the general approach taken in the international press about the Russo-Ukraine War as a whole. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
It's WP:BLUDGEON to keep reiterating your point. As Alaexis commented in the above discussion [3], there is no disagreement about the general approach, and it does not refute the argument to include a summary of the peace efforts. IntrepidContributor (talk) 06:25, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
@Super ninja2: I kinda assumed that ^^ But that probably means you also agree we should have "Peace efforts" section at all, instead of none? Because the other discussion above couldn't decide on that question. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Folks, be so kind and do not revert back and forth until a consensus has been found. Try and use all the options listed under Wikipedia:Dispute resolution...but edit warring will only lead to warnings, blocks, protectons etc...for these consequences it really doesn't matter who is right. Consider this a warning to all taking part in the back and forth. Regards. Lectonar (talk) 14:56, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Ermenrich and Rosguill, you both took part in the edit war with Jirka.h23, who unlike you, participated in the #Peace efforts discussion above. According to WP:BRD, you should have participated in the above discussion and addressed the question of whether the section should be included in the page, before reverting two good-faith attemps to write it. There are at least five editors here in favour of including the section, and in a separate discussion about calling an RfC, Giraffedata and S Marshall advised instead to close the above discussion. I didn't see any good reasons not to include a summary of the sub-article in this article, but I have requested a close for an administrator to formally determine that. IntrepidContributor (talk) 06:19, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
My edit was an admin intervention to restore the stable status quo of an article undergoing edit warring. If Jirka.h23 hadn't been blocked by Bbb23 in the same minute when I intervened, I would have followed up by either protecting the page or blocking them (I hadn't made up my mind yet at the time as to which intervention would be more appropriate), but that action was made moot. I have no opinion about the underlying dispute beyond my estimation that the edit I reverted to is the pre-existing stable status quo signed, Rosguilltalk14:29, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
WP:SILENCE is not necessarily consensus. I restored the status quo ante while the dispute was ongoing. I don't necessarily have any opinion on whether a peace section should be added (besides that it should not imply that the West/Boris Johnson forced Ukraine to keep fighting, see below).--Ermenrich (talk) 14:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I spent a lot of time in writing the section and this is how it looks like. I'm keen to hear others' feedback/thoughts. Do you have any suggestions to improve it? I personally think that it does a very good job of accurately and succinctly summarising the sources cited.
“
Peace talks led by Turkey were held between February and July 2022. As of July 2022, peace talks were frozen indefinitely after the failure of both parties to reach a settlement. On April 9, United Kingdom's then-president, Boris Johnson, visited Kiev during the second phase of the peace talks without informing the Ukrainians in advance. Russians claimed that the British prime minister imposed pressure on Kiev to keep fighting. On 5 MAY 2022, Pravda, a Ukrainian newspaper, published an article that it claims to be cited by sources close to Zelensky saying that the British prime minister brought two simple messages. The first is: "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with." And the second is that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not."[1] Fiona Hill, a veteran US diplomat who served as the US National Security Council’s senior director for Europe and Russia in the Donald Trump administration, published an article on the Foreign Affairs saying that Russia and Ukraine could have reached a peace agreement in April and that the "peace talks were apparently conducted by the Russian side in good faith."[2][3] Experts, such as John Mearsheimer, think that the collective west's goal in the Russo-Ukrainian war is "the conflict will settle into a prolonged stalemate, and eventually a weakened Russia will accept a peace agreement that favors the United States and its NATO allies, as well as Ukraine."[4]
The three articles you cite are all from the small minority of commentators of believe the invasion was the fault of the West. Using that text would violate the NPOV policy's requirement that viewpoints be represented in proportion to their frequency in Reliable Sources. I'd scrap it entirely and start with a clean slate. --RaiderAspect (talk) 14:16, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
But don't you think that the whole article didn't mention or represent the opinion of those who think this war is the west's fault? This article needs to represent more POVs and I'm working to make it meet this policy's adhered neutrality by adding different POVs. In my opinion, the article without this addition violates NPOV. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 09:31, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I'd suggest a few minor changes
“
Peace talks led by Turkey were held between 28 February and July 2022. As of July 2022, peace talks were frozen indefinitely after the failure of both parties to reach a settlement. On April 9, United Kingdom's then-president, Boris Johnson, visited Kiev during the second phase of the peace talks without informing the Ukrainians in advance. Russians claimed that the British prime minister imposed pressure on Kiev to keep fighting. On 5 May 2022, Ukrainska Pravda, a Ukrainian newspaper, published an article that it claims to be cited by sources close to Zelensky saying that the British prime minister brought two simple messages. The first is: "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with." And the second is that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not."[5] Fiona Hill, a veteran US diplomat who served as the US National Security Council’s senior director for Europe and Russia in the Donald Trump administration, published an article on the Foreign Affairs saying that Russia and Ukraine could have reached a peace agreement in April, according to which the Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion line and Ukraine would commit not to seek to join NATO, instead receiving security guarantees from a number of countries. Hill wrote that the "peace talks were apparently conducted by the Russian side in good faith."[6] Experts, such as John Mearsheimer, think that the collective west's goal in the Russo-Ukrainian war is "the conflict will settle into a prolonged stalemate, and eventually a weakened Russia will accept a peace agreement that favors the United States and its NATO allies, as well as Ukraine."[7]
”
The sentence I struck through ("Russians claimed...") is not needed. We have Ukrainian and Western sources saying the same thing citing sources close to Zelensky. I've also added the terms of the putative agreement - it's clearly important. Alaexis¿question?14:12, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Don't want to bloat the RfC discussion, but just a head's up @Ermenrich that as extended confirmed, you should be able to access Foreign Affairs via the Wikimedia Library (one of the things the Foundation has managed to sensibly spend money on): https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/
The article by Hill is completely misrepresented, as "peace talks were apparently conducted by the Russian side in good faith." is simply not in the source.
On the other hand, the currently proposed version above correctly cites the article by Mearsheimer, which is rather a poor article. He doesn't acively distort facts, but only gives some select ones: "Contrary to the conventional wisdom in the West, Moscow did not invade Ukraine to conquer it and make it part of a Greater Russia. It was principally concerned with preventing Ukraine from becoming a Western bulwark on the Russian border. Putin and his advisers were especially concerned about Ukraine eventually joining NATO." This is ofc not wrong for the pre-invasion issue, but cherry-picking, since we actually know a bit more.
Hill, much better, writes: "Narratives about NATO have also played a special role in Putin’s version of history. Putin argues that NATO is a tool of U.S. imperialism and a means for the United States to continue its supposed Cold War occupation and domination of Europe. He claims that NATO compelled eastern European member countries to join the organization and accuses it of unilaterally expanding into Russia’s sphere of influence." but then also "But Putin also plays up Russia’s imperial role. At a June 9, 2022, Moscow conference, Putin told young Russian entrepreneurs that Ukraine is a "colony," not a sovereign country. He likened himself to Peter the Great, who waged "the Great Northern War" for 21 years against Sweden—"returning and reinforcing" control over land that was part of Russia. This explanation also echoes what Putin told U.S. President George Bush at the April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest: "Ukraine is not a real country.""
I think Hill does a much better job at distinguishing "true and false" from "statements and opinions", and we should much rather follow her, an expert under the Trump administration, than a distinguished professor. Huh, crazy times. –LordPickleII (talk) 14:18, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Update: Upon closer inspection, the article by Mearsheimer is not so bad after all, just more difficult to read. He blames both sides for escalating, which is probably not untrue. But that also means the article can not be used to support a "Russia is innocent" narrative, and was thus distorted in the section suggestion above as well. I suggest people read through them themselves, as I can only discuss them so much. And ofc there are many more articles around, these are just a few. –LordPickleII (talk) 14:24, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
You're right about the sentence "peace talks were apparently conducted by the Russian side in good faith." Super ninja2, maybe it comes from somewhere else (I'm asking you as your proposed text includes this sentence)? Re the Mearsheimer's opinion, we might want to include it along with other opinions on the peace negotiations to maintain NPOV. Alaexis¿question?17:50, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
@LordPeterII " the article by Mearsheimer is not so bad after all"
I think that Wikipedia is supposed to summarize the content of RS with attribution (which what I did), not editors' opinions regarding whether the content is good or bad.
@Super ninja2: I didn't accuse you of breaking rules, I only noted that your proposal gives WP:UNDUE weight. It can be difficult to judge that; and I know you probably meant well. Also, the above were simply my personal musings about this specific article (which, again, I don't think is poorly written as I initially thought). The issue is not that your proposal is citing unreliable sources, it's that we need to report primarily what the majority of reliable sources says, which is not that. However, @Alaexis you are right that we could cite the Mearsheimer article – but I would suggest in the main peace negotiations article, not in a very short summary. Because that would give him and his minority opinion WP:UNDUE weight. –LordPeterII (talk) 19:37, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
@Super ninja2: I think you still get me wrong. I didn't mean that Foreign affairs is unreliable. We don't cite unreliable sources at all, except in extraordinary circumstances. But even a reliable source can sometimes have an article that has an unusual view, which does not align with that of most others. This can affect every newspaper, every publication: If they say something that almost noone else says, we must be careful about including it. Please read WP:UNDUE and below, it gives a good explanation! This is also explained in the section WP:BALANCING: An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially for recent events that may be in the news. We must first see what the majority says (basically, something like irl consensus), and we can present other, different opinions, too – but not as the first thing, as the most important point (because they are not). As for The whole Eastern World is realist, I don't get what you mean by that? But I read a lot of Al-Jazeera because it gives a fresh view, and they are very neutral mostly, only reporting facts and statements, and not saying they agree anyone is responsible: https://www.aljazeera.com/tag/ukraine-russia-crisis/ –LordPeterII (talk) 20:25, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
The WP:NPOV policy requires that, where differing points of view exist, that material is presented as a point of view rather than fact.
The world being politically divided only between East (realism) and West(liberalism), I don't the other pov is extraordinary nor minority, especially when taking into account the Chinese population. Western people considering the other side of the world's pov as uncommon and extraordinary, imo, is due to their lack of access to any other media. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 11:36, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
@Super ninja2: Okay... I understand where you may be getting at, but that is a different discussion entirely. Whether or not the world is divided into two halfs is a difficult discussion at best, and I would personally rather believe we now have multipolarity (US, Russia, China, India, Iran, ...). Basing your argument about what is NPOV on the relative size of populations is something I guarantee will not work on Wikipedia. This is not how NPOV is defined. But I don't want to pick a fight with you about this: It's good to have a broad set of editors, and I've lately seen a lot of editors from the Middle East (Near East in my language ^^) join and be productive on Wikipedia. Can't hurt to have people who think differently than yourself, to remind you there are other POVs around. But I don't think you will be able to completely change the interpretation of NPOV or similar guidelines, as they have for too long be the basis of Wikipedia. China has already decided they want their own version of a state-sponsored alternative, and blocked Wikipedia. I don't think that is a good way of handling things, and I don't believe "the East" and "the West" should desire to become "natural enemies", and remain split. And as for access to other media: I have just pointed out that I read (& watch) Al-Jazeera (arguably only the English edition yet, as my Arabic skills are still meager), and I also watch Chinese and Japanese news (in English) sometimes, for fun. We actually have access to them in "the West"; although it's true, most people don't make use of that. But yeah, now I have derailed after all, and I guess you should be allowed to reply :) Just know that I will not continue this discussion for much longer, as I would rather go back to other things. –LordPeterII (talk) 15:12, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. I just want to confirm that I didn't want nor I am planning to change Wikipedia's rules. You got me wrong. I was trying to prove that John Mearsheimer realism isn't a minority as you previously stated. Thank you for this discussion. It was nice to hear your pov. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 18:21, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm fine with mentioning Mearsheimer only in the peace negotiations article. Here I would stick to the facts and keep interpretations to a minimum. Alaexis¿question?19:49, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a specific article appropriate for an attack - Kryvyi Rih doesn't seem to be involved directly in either of the ongoing offensives. Someone might want to create a singular article for the attack, then. It’s definitely covered. [5], [6]. Juxlos (talk) 05:35, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't have the expertise or knowledge to edit the article, but I did notice the infobox figure for the number of troops (particularly for the Ukrainian side) are from before the invasion and does not reflect current and past mobilization. I've seen numbers as high as 700,000. I wouldn't know where to begin on adding updated figures, but I feel I should bring it to light. Ohmsteader (talk) 18:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
The issue of counting troops has been discussed several times in the history archive of this page. There are the comparison numbers of conscription in Ukraine compared to the actual number of boots on the ground in Ukraine organized into divisions and regiments. Your reliable sources will usually inform you as to which statistics they are estimated for 'troop' demographics. ErnestKrause (talk) 09:40, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
September 2022: Large number of major changes to structural elements of article including major revision of TOC without discussion
Bold reverts regarding large number of changes being made by User:Jr without Talk page discussion even though many editors are involved in the editing of this article. Talk page discussion is normally required for large scale changes to the article being edited by a large number of editors. One major issue is that Jr wishes to fully drop the distinction of Phase One and Phase Two of the invasion without prior discussion. Phase one and phase two of the invasion are pervasive to the article and should not be changed without discussion first. Phase one and phase two of the invasion is also the preferred distinction for most of the international press reporting on the Invasion. Jr appears to wish to eliminate this distinction for his own 'vision' for what the article should look like. Should phase one and phase distinction be dropped from the article or retained, since Jr appears to wish to drop them entirely from the TOC of the article which has been in place since April 8th 2022. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
@Jr8825 and ErnestKrause: Let's remember to assume good faith: Bold changes don't imply an editor is trying to impose their "own vision" on the article. But I agree, we should better discuss major changes, so let's do it here.
Thanks for creating this thread. I recognise the changes I made to the structure are major. They were made in the spirit of bold, revert, discuss and inspired by the comments about the need for change made in this above thread by editors I Know I'm Not Alone and llywrch. I've no issue with the changes being reverted if others don't see them as an improvement (in fact I'd be surprised if these changes were simply kept). I'm not particularly attached to the new structure, rather I'm hope it offers a launching pad for more discussion. I do think the new structure offers better chronological flow overall and puts some topics in more logical order, but I'm keen to see others' ideas and highly doubt my bold changes are the best possible structure. Jr8825 • Talk22:21, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause regarding the large number of edits, most of these were overdue copy-editing. Most of this article is very rough around the edges as it's being written as events occur. On the whole, I don't think expect much of this copy-editing is controversial. I think wholescale reverts of this major copy-editing isn't presumptive of my good faith, and rather unproductive. It'd be far more preferable if you could simply restore the structure you like. Jr8825 • Talk22:25, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Currently I cannot undo the last edit in the large sequence which you have added into the article today without Talk page discussion. As a sign of good faith may I ask you to revert this edit which you made in order for good faith discussion to continue on this Talk page here: "Curprev 21:01, 10 September 2022 Jr8825 talk contribs 358,306 bytes −3,600 →Invasion and resistance: bold restructure & heavy c/e". I am requesting this in good faith, that you revert your edit just identified, in order to continue this Talk page discussion on the basis of my BRD request. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:27, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
The edits you've reverted so far represent an hour's worth of heavy copy-editing for brevity, grammar and source adhesion, but as you point out, intervening edits means you can't actually click the undo button on the edit that changed the headers. In hindsight, it was rather foolish of me to combine that change with other copy edits as it complicates reversion, and I'm sorry for that – I recognise this was a mistake. You have two options, you can either spend a few minutes of your time manually restoring the section titles to your preferred version, or you can revert all changes since the header renaming by going to the diff before it, clicking edit and then publishing that version. In doing so you will irreparably undo all of the other changes (including several by other editors) that have occurred in the mean time, and it's far more work to manually restore all of the intervening copy-editing (realistically, it won't happen and the changes will be lost). I implore you to choose the first option: restore the most recent version with all of the other improvements, stick {{in use}} on the page and take a few minutes of your time to rename the headers as you wish. Jr8825 • Talk22:43, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and restored my copy edits as I'd be very disappointed to see them lost, but with "First phase" and "Second phase" appended to the headers "Initial invasion" and "Donbas offensive", which is the primary issue you raised in your initial comment here. Does this ameliorate your concerns? What else do you think should be different about the headers? Jr8825 • Talk22:52, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Keith D BRD discussion is underway and User:Jr appears to be in agreement to participate until consensus is reached, however, intermediate edits have made it not possible to do an undo of the last edit of the sequence here: "21:01, 10 September 2022 Jr8825 talk contribs 358,306 bytes −3,600 →Invasion and resistance: bold restructure & heavy c/e". May I ask that you rollback the edits to just before this last edit by Jr which I just listed, in order for Talk page discussion to be able to continue in a meaningful way." ErnestKrause (talk) 22:49, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
User:Jr, you appear to have done the partial revert for your edit which might allow for discussion of this matter to continue at least in part on this Talk page. It appears that you wish to fully remove the distinction of Phase one and phase two from the article and its structural TOC. Your appear to wish to do this even though many parts of the article and its images, and its animation maps, are dependent upon the distinction of these two phases. Further, the distinction of these two phases has been the manner in which the international press has been reporting the Invasion since April 8th. You have done so without any prior discussion and in the absence of any reasons shared with any other editors. Is there a reason for this, and are there any editors that feel such an extensive revision without Talk page discussion should have been done? ErnestKrause (talk) 22:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't have any strong opinions on including "phases". I've restored this language in the latest revision. Have you checked it? Jr8825 • Talk22:59, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Keith D has no tools you don't in this case: as I explained above, you can simply go to the page history, view the version prior to the structural change (I've even linked it for your convenience), click edit and then publish it. I'll be frustrated by the loss of my contributions, and I'd point to WP:ROWN and WP:REVONLY, but ultimately it's my fault for bundling my changes together and you're free to do this; I won't revert you. Jr8825 • Talk22:58, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm requesting that you restore the article as a sign of good faith in editing. Otherwise, I'll request that Keith D rollback the article as requested when he returns from the week-end for regular editing of the article to start again, and for any required discussion which you may need at that time. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:54, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm not going to self-revert myself as it would involve undoing significant copy-editing, you're welcome to change the headers however you see fit. Perhaps you can explain your other problems with the changes, now that "first phase" and "second phase" have been restored per your request?
I'll run through the changes:
I renamed "Second phase: South-eastern offensive" to "Second phase: Donbas offensive" as it's consistent with the main article, Battle of Donbas (2022), and I suspect this is the most common label in media coverage. I'm happy to carry out a source review to confirm whether or not this is correct. Feel free to adjust.
I removed "Second phase:" from the headers for the Ukrainian counteroffensives and the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis and promoted them from level 4 headers so they're no longer sub-sections of the Donbas offensive section. I did this because they're outside the Donbas, occurred several months after the main events of the Russian offensive, and, I think, are themselves particularly notable events within the invasion. The Battle of Donbas is what is commonly referred to as the "second phase" of the war. Maybe the counteroffensives & NPP crisis could be labelled a "third phase", although unless sources are found this may be WP:OR. You're welcome to restore "Second phase" to these headers, although I'm personally doubtful there are sources which explicitly say these events are part of the "second phase" of the invasion; if you know of sources which do, it'd be appreciated if you could link the source in this discussion.
I added a date range "(August – present)" to the new level 3 "Ukrainian counteroffensives" header. To explain my thought process, I think this helpfully includes the Crimea attacks and matches the period of time when media sources were widely discussing a possible Ukrainian offensive in Kherson, while events in the Donbas were receiving limited attention and were at a relative standstill. However, I'm not fussed about the date range inclusion, by all means remove it.
I re-arranged the "Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk" and "Fall of Mariupol" subsections so that Mariupol is discussed first, as it fell earlier (~16 May vs. 24 June-3 July) and the "Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk" refers to the Mariupol being "almost entirely taken" in the lead up to the Russian assault on these cities, so it makes more sense this way.
I shortened coverage of individual strikes and events in the Dnipro–Zaporizhzhia and Mykolaiv–Odesa regions during this period, and subsumed them under a new level 4 "Other regions" header, as they were away from the main fighting in Donbas, relatively few major developments occurred in them, and there was considerable over-detail; however, all the key events such as the recapture of Snake Island and Kremenchuk mall strike are retained. If you believe these sections should again be level 4 headers themselves, go ahead, although I'm personally unconvinced they can be considered core parts of the Russian Donbas offensive. "Other regions" could be named something like "Outside the Donbas", or these regions could be removed from under the "Phase two: Donbas offensive" header entirely. No strong preferences here, happy to consider alternatives.
The caption of the animated map doesn't perfectly align with the new headers since it continues up to present, but says "Phase 2". It's an easy fix, whichever option is chosen: "Phase 2" can simply be removed from the caption (would be my preference), the animation can be adjusted to end before the Ukrainian counteroffensives, or the header "Second phase: Donbas offensive (8 April – July)" can be changed back to "Second phase: Donbas offensive (8 April – present), which would fit well with the option I suggested above, of removing the date range from the header "Ukrainian offensives (August – present)". I wouldn't object to any of these changes, the point in my restructure is to encourage this kind of problem solving.
That's about it in terms of the structural changes, and again, if you strongly believe all of these changes are bad you can simply edit the current revision and restore the headers as they were in Special:Permalink/1109602196. This link can be put alongside the current revision for ease of comparison. Jr8825 • Talk00:48, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I have reverted as requested above, but gone 1 version further as that just added the {{inuse}} template, I have also kept user:Jjmclellan82 change as a seperate addition which you can revert out if you do not want it. (Looks like further discussion taking place since I started this action) Keith D (talk) 01:32, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm really disappointed with this wholescale revert as it undoes lots of uncontroversial cleanup, when it's much simpler to restore the section titles and order while leaving the current prose. I acknowledge it was foolish to carry out such extensive copy-editing at the same time as bold adjustments to the headers, but I'm not going to spend another hour of my time restoring my copy-editing manually. I'll continue to discuss possible structural changes here if @ErnestKrause or others decide to review my suggestions in detail and offer their thoughts on them. Jr8825 • Talk01:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
On reflection, I think Ernest's request for a wholescale revert is improper. I made a wide range of substantial good faith edits, Ernest reverted 10 of these in a row and when it wasn't possible to automatically the revert the 11th, requested I manually self-revert it and then asked an admin to revert instead (see Special:History/2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine). This is very poor reversion etiquette. I cited BRD, I'm fine with seeing my bold edits reverted – I ask ErnestKrause joins in the discussion and engages with my proposals when he's able to – but BRD doesn't mean reversion is acceptable in the absence of justification. Ernest hasn't asserted my changes are particularly controversial beyond the header adjustments, despite requesting their reversion in entirety. I've promptly implemented the only specific concern so far raised, and have broken down the header changes above to assist further discussion. However, I'm less concerned with the bold edits than I am the loss of several hours of careful copy-editing and cutting. @Keith D:, I ask that you self-revert to allow me to restore the headers as closely as possible to how they were prior to my edits while maintaining the much larger proportion of my edits which were non-controversial copy-edits. I recognise I bungled things by bundling lots of edits together (in a rush to avoid edit conflicts on this busy article) and will manually restore the status-quo headers in order to save the considerable work I've undertaken today. Jr8825 • Talk02:24, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause:After several hours, there does not appear to be support for your comments – I don't get this. We do not need support for an editor expressing his disappoitment over having his work reverted, nor do we need to expect such replies within hours. Copyediting is tedious work, and there might have been alternatives to a rollback. I'll move on to other places now, but would like to remind you that you do not WP:OWN this article, no matter how extensive your contributions are. Everyone has the right to attempt an improvement of the article, and just because you do not agree with it, doesn't automatically imply that no one does. –LordPeterII (talk) 11:03, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Your own comment above was to say: "If the press is reporting these phases like that, I find it convincing to keep in line with that." Is this still your position? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Here is a brief source review. The "second phase" of the invasion is used to describe the Battle of Donbas and/or Russian offensives in the Donbas/south:
"The second stage of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is ... establishing full control over Donbas and southern Ukraine"25 April
"For 300 miles across Donbas, a new wave of Russian firepower has been unleashed. Ukraine’s President says the second phase of Russia’s invasion has begun"20 April
"Russia says it has begun a new phase of the invasion of Ukraine as fighting raged in the Donbas region"19 April
"Russia said it had begun a new phase of its invasion of Ukraine on Tuesday as officials in the eastern border region of Donbas urged civilians to flee"19 April
""Another phase" of Russia's invasion of Ukraine "is starting now," Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said ... "The Russian troops have begun the battle for the Donbas," Zelenskyy said"19 April
These usages are concentrated around the beginning of the Russian Donbas offensive in April. A search for results in the last month for "Ukraine war second phase" on Google returns little meaningful journalism or analysis. Jr8825 • Talk14:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Edits from User:Jr appear to be getting highly unreliable. He is stating in his above responses that he sees no appreciable search results ("little meaningful journalism") for a Google search on the four key words "Ukraine second phase war", while my computer screen is identifying dozens upon dozens of articles using the words "second phase" in magazines, newspaper, and video news reports. My search on Google and/or Yahoo gives dozens upon dozens of linked articles: the Yahoo search results, for example, are here: [7]. If statements from User:Jr continue to be unreliable, then it leads to the troublesome question of his reliability/unreliability for his edits to this article about the Invasion. For example, see Reuters for "Second phase of war has started, says Ukraine president's chief of staff" in Reuters here [8], see BusinessInsider here [9], see CBS News here [10], etc. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
You haven't read my comment properly. I wrote that "a search for results in the last month" turns up very few results. Above, I highlighted 5 articles which show the journalists and commentators use the term "second phase" to refer to the Russian Donbas offensive.
Additionally, I've just found an recent Al Jazeera article from 24 August which further supports my arguments that the second phase of the war has ended: "Offensive, redeployment, counterattack: Ukraine has overmatched expectations in all three main phases of this war. During the first month, Russia attempted a blitzkrieg offensive ... On March 25, Russia announced it was redeploying its forces to the east ... on April 18 Russia’s eastern offensive began in earnest [and May and June were] Ukraine’s worst months ... The arrival in Ukraine of high-precision rocket artillery systems ... on June 23 disrupted Russia’s war of attrition in the east."
You appear to be reverting my title for this thread. Wikipedia convention is that the person who initiates the thread provides the name of the thread for use on the Talk page. I restored the original title and stated my reason for keeping it. You then reverted again to your own preference against Wikipedia convention for naming the title of a thread by the person who starts it. I'm requesting that you show good faith and return the title to how it was named when it was started. You previously declined my other request for you to AGF, which you refused to do during your main page edits over the week-end. I'm requesting that you reconsider your previous refusal to edit by AGF, and that you return the original title of this section in good faith to allow discussion by other editors to take place about the title and the associated edit issues. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:49, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Returning to the substance of the discussion, after looking at the above articles, what's your view on the sourcing regarding "second phase", and when/if sources indicate that the second phase of the conflict has ended? Following from this, what problems do you see in my proposals to change the TOC (numbered 1-5 above)? Regarding the thread title, the current one is clearer and I refer to my explanation on your talk page. Let's focus on the content. Jr8825 • Talk17:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Answered on your Talk page. You appear to be edit warring to force your version the title into this thread for your own purposes. I'm adding my request again that as a matter of AGF, that you return the title to its original form as written by the initiator of this thread. The original title chosen is accurate and I'm requesting in good faith that you restore the original title. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
I can't follow this overly long discussion anymore, but wanted to say that I agree section headers should not be changed, unless in extraordinary circumstances. The current header wording might not have been the optimal choice, but changing it is not a solution, it confuses other editors. –LordPeterII (talk) 21:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2022
Under the heading "Invasion and resistance," fix "Ukrainian forces managed to hold ground and put to effectively use Western arms." It's a small error and looks like it should either read "put to effective use Western arms" or "and effectively used Western arms." Delukiel (talk) 19:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Add a section between Reaction and Polls, namely, "In Film and Media", for the ongoing war already became at least the inspiration of one TV show episodes aired in US. The would-be section goes as follows---
In Film and Media
The ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine started to become an inspiration for some TV show episodes. For example, the last episode of FBI: Most Wanted's 2021-22 season, "A Man Without a Country", featured a Russian oligarch embarking on a killing spree, even to the point of abducting his estranged daughter who stood with Ukraine and even briefly touched upon the infamous Bucha massacre in her press conference before abduction, and the name "President Kimov" is a strong allusion to the current Russian president, Vladimir Putin, and since the episode was first aired on May 24, 2022, whereas Bucha massacre was only exposed on Apr 2, 2022, therefore it was very remarkable that the events made its way into a TV show episode in a short time and some elements already figured prominently in the episode itself. Bf0325 (talk) 20:47, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
I just provided a link to that specific episode which you can watch yourself, and be careful to the words coming out of those characters, especially the oligarch and his estranged daughter as well as others---they explicitly and implicitly referred to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, such as "the invasion", Kyiv, Ukraine, Bucha, and the like. Bf0325 (talk) 00:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, and this is the link to that specific FBI: Most Wanted episode--- [11]https://www.cbs.com/shows/video/JQzgrfKsLxIU6MxXjKI75GQHAnF_qBYc/. Commercials were interspersed within the episode itself, but you can watch the whole episode and decide whether my description is correct. Do not just read the synopsis itself, because it's too brief whereas a lot of details are in the episode itself, from the mouths of those characters. Bf0325 (talk) 00:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
@Bf0325: To clarify, you want these changes to be added to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions? Because they would seem overly detailled here. If so, it would have made more sense to discuss this on the other talk page. Regardless, I am not sure if a "In popular culture" section is warranted there just yet, it seems less important than the irl reactions. But others might agree with your suggestion. –LordPeterII (talk) 18:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
No, not as part of Reactions, but rather a whole new section, and indeed it is detailed, but that doesn't mean some other TV shows or movies or documentaries around the world didn't touch upon the war or were inspired partially by it. We may throw in "In popular culture" and see what happens. Bf0325 (talk) 04:12, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 September 2022
In the section "Phase Two" please update the animated map subtext to say "from 7 April to 5 September 2022". In the section "Phase Three" please add the phase 3 gif with the following subtext "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine phase 3 from 5 September to 14 September 2022".
I've updated the caption for the Phase 2 animation map. In looking at the new animation map for Phase 3 it is occurring to me that a large portion of the map covering Western Ukraine is not an active part of the map animation, and that it might be useful to focus the map to only go as far West as Kyiv in presenting the animation for the Southeastern invasion of Ukraine. Could that be done by setting a template size or parameters for the map as a global change to that animation file before its added into the Phrase three part of the article (otherwise the map idea for Phase three look like a good idea)? ErnestKrause (talk) 09:36, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I could definitely crop the animation to just show the southeast, but I personally think that it is important to show the whole of the country. There is still a chance the Belarus might try an invasion of its own, or Russia might try to attack Kyiv, so showing the whole map is important. I will upload a cropped version as a separate file a little later. Physeters✉18:09, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
@Polmas: I have no strong opinions about it being in the lede, but I don't think some of the issues you point out are that bad:
The quotation marks are used to signify that those statement aren't facts, so we need them.
I don't believe this is spreading Russian propaganda, specifically because we have words like falsely denoting claims that are refuted.
I can understand what you mean, but as Slatersteven pointed out, we are not at the end yet. Eventually, when this is history, the lede section should certainly be reworked. But right now, we don't even know what it will end up saying (hopefully something better than the other article you linked). –LordPeterII (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I agree we can’t just quote Putin’s incitement to genocide[12] in the lead without any evaluation whatsoever. The sources cited for the quotation are all about denying its veracity. I’ve added something that might suffice.[13] —MichaelZ.19:25, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I generally agree with Polmas that the quotes should not be in the lead as they detract from what should be in a lead. See WP:Lead for a guide on what should generally be and not be in the lead. I also agree that the quotes do have a place in the article as they provide background and information on the leader of Russia. Jurisdicta (talk) 02:36, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Changing word form of 'demilitarization' which is the one being quoted from the body of the article. Talk page discussion should continue presently in progress to determine if this sentence is to remain in the lead section or be deleted. Current version of the key words is now exactly as quoted in the main body of this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I personally find the new wording too repetitious. We already say the claim about Nazis is false in the paragraph above, so repeating it a second time a few lines later is redundant, and makes it sound like Wikipedia's editors have an axe to grind/Wikipedia is taking a stance. I don't think our educational purpose is impacted by just saying it's false once. I think putting "denazification" in scare quotes is enough myself, although I would agree with Polmas that simply removing Putin's phrasing here is an option too (and preferable to repeating "false", in my view). Putin's stated justification is detailed in the above paragraph, so no information would be lost. Jr8825 • Talk04:27, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
It can probably be improved. But do realize these are two different things said in two speeches, one announcing “peacekeeping” days before the start of open hostilities, the other a tacit declaration of war and its aims immediately after. What’s still missing from the lead is that one is evidence of a campaign of genocide incitement, the other evidence of genocidal intent.[14] —MichaelZ.13:52, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
And they are actual quotes denoting the direct, literal quotation of speech, not scare quotes.
And sorry, but I think we have to repeat that it’s false every we quote false genocidal demonizing language. We can decline repeating the whole thing when it’s redundant, but let’s not remove it with the only justification being that we are squeamish about denying its validity. —MichaelZ.14:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
re: "I think we have to repeat that it’s false every we quote false genocidal demonizing language", I think this is more reflective of the tendency to be forthright and engage in rather than describe disputes when covering current affairs, rather than keeping things detached and letting the facts speak for themselves. Our purpose is to inform, not persuade. Adolf Hitler provides a counterpoint. We don't say "false" every time we discuss his pack of genocidal lies, e.g. "stab-in-the-back myth which claimed that the German army, "undefeated in the field", had been "stabbed in the back" on the home front by civilian leaders, Jews ...", "Throughout [Mein Kampf], Jews are equated with "germs" and presented as the "international poisoners" of society. According to Hitler's ideology, the only solution was their extermination", "Hitler's long-standing view that the Jews were the enemy of the German people" etc.. I'm fine with saying "falsely claimed Ukraine was governed by neo-Nazis who persecuted the ethnic Russian minority" (iirc I helped write that sentence early on in this article's history), but saying "Putin's false claim" twice, a couple of sentences apart, in the lead? I think it's too much. Jr8825 • Talk15:24, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Every example expresses doubt in wiki-voice, or at least explicitly contextualizes direct quotations as an opinion: “myth,” “presented as”, “according to Hitler’s ideology,” “Hitler’s long-standing view.” All I am insisting is that a new paragraph introducing a second statement with new propaganda terms “‘demilitarization and denazification’” be treated the same way as your examples. —MichaelZ.16:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I would much prefer ...when Putin announced a "special military operation". Minutes later... to ...when Putin announced a "special military operation" for the "demilitarisation and denazification" of Ukraine, reinforcing his false narrative associating Ukraine with Nazism. Minutes later...Jr8825 • Talk04:36, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
@Mzajac: responding to your point about it being two different speeches, one a justification for "peacekeeping" and one a declaration of war, I think that as long as we keep the detail in the second para. (e.g. his false claims regarding the situation/Ukraine "nazis") and the phrasing "announced a "special operation". Minutes later [bombs fell]" at the start of the third, we sufficiently convey that the declaration of war was separate. I do see Polmas' point that it seems unnecessary to repeat Putin's claims again in the third para. Jr8825 • Talk15:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Well I don’t disagree with that. But it is not a merely repeat of the claims. It is a distinct explicit statement of war aims, and it is phrased using propaganda terminology that many entire articles have been written about. It is central to the evidence of genocide against Ukraine, incorporating incitement and intentionality, and integral to an order for execution.
Like I said, maybe it can be written differently, but I think the article would be better by referring to these aspects of the statement in the lead rather than removing it. —MichaelZ.17:08, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
if it's necessary to keep the quote "demilitarisation and denazification", perhaps we can couch it in terms that make it clearer it's his contentious/cynical claim? I think this is already obvious from the previous paragraph, but wouldn't be against something like "when Putin announced a "special military operation", which he claimed was aimed at the "demilitarisation and denazification" of Ukraine." I'm just unsupportive of adding an additional and repetitive wikivoice assertion/analysis here. Jr8825 • Talk18:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
"New York" on battle map
A town directly north of Donetsk is labeled as "New York" and has been for a few months. Figured this is the only place you can submit a correction as editing is locked to a select few honest fact-checkers 47.23.177.234 (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Donetsk People's Republic and the Russian Government have been known to exaggerate their enemies losses. As can be said for the Ukrainian side. This is an ongoing conflict and misinformation spreads fast through their respective governments and may not indicate true casualties. The Ukrainian losses ( source/tag #598 ) seems untrue and is unclear, as it does not state separately and it is coming from a combatant known to lie.[2]
Neutrality of such forces, even stated as estimates can/are unreliable. [1 1]
Overall, combatant sources in these resective issues should be avoided, as they do tend to be unreliable and not neutral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties110.145.200.26
^Casey, Ralph (7/1944). EM 2: What Is Propaganda?. Minnesota: University Of Minnesota. p. Book. Retrieved 20/9/22. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |access-date= and |date= (help); More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)
Chronology?
I just read section 3.4 Missile attacks and air war and noticed that the first paragraph gives details of a time after the second paragraph. I think I'm not the only person who would find it easier to read chronologically. Dutchy45 (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
In the section, the estimates for killed civilians from the Ukrainian government state that "28,28,707" have died. The source that the statistic uses does not state such ([15]), and the Wikipedia article it uses as a reference doesn't use this statistic (of the Russo-Ukrainian War). Please fix this obvious typo.
Your link does not indicate the edit you are talking about: what is the meaning of the number sequence "28,28,707" which you are typing here? ErnestKrause (talk) 11:53, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm still not sure what the notation of a two digit number, followed by a two digit number, followed by a three digit number means {"28,28,707")? What is the number being discussed and what is the 'correction' being requested here? ErnestKrause (talk) 02:28, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
"28,28,707" is not written correctly, as it should be (assuming the number is as represented) 2,828,707, is that the number you want? Slatersteven (talk) 10:05, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
After looking it up in the "Field casualties" subsection this is what it presents in the table numbers: "7,000–28,708+ killed[604][g]". That number appears to have been mistyped from this table in the article. I'm assuming for now that those numbers are consistent with footnote #604 and footnote (g) as currently presented in the article for accuracy verification. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Source of casualties
Should we even consider Russian Ministry of defense as a worthy source of casualties (both Ukrainian and Russian)? Does it have something to do with reality? DakeFasso (talk) 07:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
The result of the discussion in Russian Wikipedia is that "partial" nature of this mobilization is just scam. There are at least 2 reliable sources which say, with reference to recognized experts, that, in fact, this mobilization allows to call to military service unlimited number of citizens.[1][2]K8M8S8 (talk) 15:32, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
However, at present among the Russian troops the number of boots-in-the-field is still much more limited and far smaller than what a general conscription would result in. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
The text [a] should be rewritten, please compare DPR, LDR. Russia wants to annex the occupied territories and threatens with nuclear weapons. Xx236 (talk) 06:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
No need for a separate article for this. This can quite happily be a section inside the already present article about the overall invasion. Osarius12:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Discussion of the 'mobilization' in the international press now appears to be going in the direction that Putin is defining this term as referring to the enlistment of troops currently in reserve to active service at this time, along with the re-activation of eligibility for ex-soldiers who are still capable of returning to military service. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
If this new mobilization of Putin's goes into effect as I just described Putin's plans, then the boots-in-the-field would effectively double for Russia; that in turn would suggest a direct answer from Russia to the current Ukrainian counteroffensive. (Osarius requested that the associated edit be brought into this article). ErnestKrause (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Invasion section structure
I think we should make some changes to how we structure the invasion section for clarity, chronological flow and a better reflection of the sources, and would like to invite feedback. The original thread about this has unfortunately been derailed by a long-winded discussion about reversion and conduct, rather than the substance of the proposals themselves. I'm starting this thread with a clearer breakdown of the changes to facilitate discussion and make participation easier.
A version of the page including the proposed section titles can be viewed here.
The current sections are on the left, in yellow, and the proposed sections are on the right, in blue.
−
Invasion and resistance
—First phase: InvasionofUkraine (24 February – 7 April)
——Firstphase–Northern front
——Firstphase–North-eastern front
——Firstphase–Southern front
——Firstphase–Eastern front
—Second phase: South-easternfrontandcounteroffensives (8 April – present)——Secondphase–Mykolaiv–Odesafront——Secondphase–Dnipro–Zaporizhzhiafront——Secondphase–Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk
——Secondphase–FallofMariupol——Secondphase–Attacks in Crimea
——Secondphase–UkrainianKharkivcounteroffensive—WesternUkraine
—Air warfare
—Naval warfare
—Russian nuclear threats
—Popular resistance
+
Invasion and resistance
—First phase: Initial invasion (24 February – 7 April)
——Northern front
——North-eastern front
——Southern front
——Eastern front
—Second phase: Donbas offensive (8 April – July)
——Fall of Mariupol
——Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk
——Other regions
———Dnipro–Zaporizhzhia
———Mykolaiv–Odesa
—Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant crisis
—Ukrainian counteroffensives (August – present)
——Attacks in Crimea
——Kherson
——Kharkiv
—Air warfare
—Naval warfare
—Russian nuclear threats
—Popular resistance
Should we include recent developments, such as the Ukrainian counterattacks and the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis, within the sub-section entitled "second phase:" (as currently)?
Where should we cover the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis?
Currently it is covered in "Second phase – Dnipro–Zaporizhzhia front" and "Russian nuclear threats", although I think it may warrant its own brief subsection with a hatnote link to the main article given the amount of coverage. If it's given a subsection, I'm not certain where the best place is to put it, I've initially suggested placing it chronologically between the Russian Donbas offensive and Ukrainian counteroffensives. Jr8825 • Talk10:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
A content-fork on a Talk Page ... please, STOP. Go back to the original thread, and discuss there. Asking for an Admin to hat this thread, please. Jr ... you are acting like you want to 'hide the evidence' of your initial conduct or something. That's 1) not possible, and 2) is pointless in a content discussion - nobody's "out to get you." 50.111.29.1 (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Support – The new layout looks cleaner; I have wondered before why "First phase" and "Second phase" is repeated in each subheading. Agree with I Know I'm Not Alone that the sources seem to support a third phase now. Also, having Invasion of Ukraine as a subheading seems confusing, as that's also the name of the whole article. Initial invasion sounds better there. I'm only unsure if Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant crisis should get a heading on this level: It was a dangerous incident, but doesn't fit into the "three phases" ordering very well. –LordPeterII (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Note: Anachronism of this comparison. The current article format has taken a different direction now in recognizing "Phase 3"; the TOC comparison given in this thread does not seem to match the direction which other editors have moved the article into since this option was presented. Its not clear what editors are Supporting or Opposing in this thread. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm happy to see that after my own changes were wholescale reverted without a detailed explanation, other editors have since gone and boldly implemented the new "third phase" section as proposed here and it has been accepted. However, there are a few more specific issues the above structure fixes: 1) the redundant repetition of "X phase:" before every sub-header, 2) the non-chronological discussion of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk before Mariupol, 3) coverage of the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis and, most importantly in my view, 4) the earlier cut-off point for the "second phase" (July, rather than September), which adheres to sourcing in RS (e.g. FP and the sources above) in which analysts and military experts are quoted as describing the arrival of HIMARS in July as effectively freezing Russia's artillery-based offensive in Donbas and ending that phase of the conflict. There's then a limbo-land period in August dominated by the nuclear plant crisis and Ukrainian preparations, before the Ukrainian offensives start at the beginning of Sept. Currently our structure doesn't accurately reflect this. Jr8825 • Talk15:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Strong Support with comment for @ErnestKrause. The structure as it exists is needlessly wordy and confusing. For EK, I am in favour of your phrasing on proposals (1) and (2); I'll abstain on (3) since I honestly don't know enough; and for (4), whatever date is selected for the end of Phase 1 must start Phase 2 -- It's not like everyone went out for a pint for the whole month of August. As for commentary, I find it saddening that the only person who seems to be following Wikipedia editing guidelines is the person who seemed to get spanked for WP:BRD, @Jr8825. To a casual observer, it appears that instead of really addressing the core concerns that s/he raised, folks went down all sorts of rabbit holes and kept using the old, flawed, painful structure. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 18:01, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Note: Anachronism of this comparison. Its not clear which versions you are comparing. The 'old' version presented in the comparison above no longer exists; it has been replaced by the current TOC and article with designations of 'Third phase', etc, as other editors have started it and edited it in the last week. You appear to be discussing replacement of a version of the article which no longer exists. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Recap: When the Jr8825 changed the article under WP:BOLD, s/he got reverted. S/He chose the WP:BRD path and joined the discussion above. That discussion went on so long that some specific details didn't exist, so someone said (metaphorically), "Oh, we've moved on so we don't have to think about those problems." The author came back and said, quite reasonably, "Can we talk about the structure again since it's still terrible? And here are some new problems." This discussion has gone on so long that some of the specific details don't exist any more (sound familiar?) so it's now 'an anachronism'... and we're still not fixing it.
If Jr8825 simply makes the common-sense changes, s/he has every reason to assume s/he'll get reverted again for lack of discussion. Would it be better if I start a new thread that simply says, "Redundant, nested headers are bad and some things seem out of place," and avoid fungible specifics? I'd bet cash money that the very first response will be, "We can't discuss this until you provide specific examples." Last1in (talk) 18:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
current estimates of numerical strength
so in the infobox the strngth estimates are currently given for the start of the invasion, wich is important information. However, this conflict has now been going on for more than 7 months, and the russian number is about to change drastically given the mobilization. So wouldn't it make sense to also include estimates for the current strength in order to better reflect the realities on the ground? Assuming someone finds reliable sources for currently deployed troops. 1234567891011a (talk) 09:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
I found an update to show you, here it is:
In September 23, many Russians are protesting and escaping the country due to Putin's order of mobilize multiple troops to help the struggling campaign in Ukraine. Since then, a lot of videos have emerged on social media that showcases families and friends seeing off young recruits to fight. There are news reports about long lines of cars backed up on Russia's border crossings on each country.2601:205:C001:EA0:BCFD:2E6B:6676:6DCD (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
This appears to be more of a Reaction to the Invasion taking place within the borders of Russia and not in Ukraine. Possibly see the new article for Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2022
I would like to notify you that "Belligerents" right table is missing countries that are supporting each side. Example it is stated that Belarus is supporting Russia, but it is missing that Ukraine is supported by NATO. Please verify and fix.
During the fog of war, there are discrepancies and inconsistencies between what different sides claim to be casualties. The tables currently are organized to indicate the source of the statistics being presented. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
One table is confirmed minimum counts, the other is estimates of total. The two sets are not directly comparable. —MichaelZ.20:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2022
The first line of the Refugee Crisis section starts with the word "tens" and seems out of place. If this isn't supposed to be there could it be removed? (edit it has been fixed)Jeicex1 (talk) 08:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
could someone send the ruling for "supported by" section?
I want to know what wikipedia's ruling is on listing countries that support. Since I feel this is related to 1973, America floods Israel (like Ukraine) with weapons so they should be included. PreserveOurHistory (talk) 06:09, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Ukraine is a soveignerty state and a republic. Thandile12 (talk) 10:08, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Russia aggressively invaded Ukraine.please let me be able to honestly edit this page of the war
Ahh, well I am unsure we need to say that (after all we do not say Russia is one either (We assume any reader unsure will click on the link and read about the country)). Slatersteven (talk) 10:16, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
There is an image highlighting countries that have sent military support to Ukraine, and an image highlighting countries that have sent humanitarian aid to Ukraine. Small circles are used to represent either small countries or small territories belonging to countries. Every single territory that is represented by a small circle AND was coloured dark blue indicating military support have their circles missing in the second image for humanitarian aid. Every territory that were not coloured dark blue appears to be unaffected by this. Countries that are represented by circles, such as Luxembourg, are not affected.
Shouldn't it be "On the 24th of February 2022" and not "On 24 February 2022"?
Reading through the dates I realized that it's not "On the __th/st" It's just "On __". I feel like I am a bit wrong hence why I'm asking as to why it's said like this. Smotoe (talk) 14:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Well, the current format is used widely. It is common in infoboxes, as this is a convenient way to condense the information. The same goes for the main article text. Just to name an example, Operation Barbarossa states: "Operation Barbarossa (German: Unternehmen Barbarossa; Russian: Операция Барбаросса, romanized: Operatsiya Barbarossa) was the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany and many of its Axis allies, starting on Sunday, 22 June 1941...". 2A02:AB04:2C2:E300:E135:355C:BD0:538C (talk) 19:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be "On the 24th of February 2022" and not "On 24 February 2022"?
Reading through the dates I realized that it's not "On the __th/st" It's just "On __". I feel like I am a bit wrong hence why I'm asking as to why it's said like this. Smotoe (talk) 14:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Well, the current format is used widely. It is common in infoboxes, as this is a convenient way to condense the information. The same goes for the main article text. Just to name an example, Operation Barbarossa states: "Operation Barbarossa (German: Unternehmen Barbarossa; Russian: Операция Барбаросса, romanized: Operatsiya Barbarossa) was the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany and many of its Axis allies, starting on Sunday, 22 June 1941...". 2A02:AB04:2C2:E300:E135:355C:BD0:538C (talk) 19:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, it is to summarise key points of the article and we don't write the article in the infobox. Accordingly, the article establishes who goes into the infobox, because their significance is established through the article by more than passing mentions. Only the two presidents meet the criteria. Zaluzhnyi has a single passing mention, in which he is reporting a claim and has been attributed for doing so. Being the reporter of record however does not establish any substantial significance to the article. As to bolding, this would be contrary to MOS:NOBOLD. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Well then 1) it is a problem with the article that the military commanders aren’t covered, 2) it seems obvious to me that the supreme commander of each side in a war is basic fundamental information about it, and we should consider it one of the exceptions mentioned in MOS:IB, as amelioration until no. 1 is corrected, and 3) omitting them represents a bias towards information about one side, because public personalities are discouraged under the authoritarian–charismatic Russian leader (I can find sources), and 4) the infobox section head is literally “commanders and leaders” and should have the commanders. —MichaelZ.02:54, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
For inclusion, the significance of a commander should be evident by their deeds as reported in the article. Whether there is a problem with the article as it exists in respect to this is a matter of opinion. I would note that the presidents are the supreme commander/C-i-C of the two countries and the article does evidence their significance. If additional information is so fundamental, one might observe that it would have been written into the article already. This type of information is not consistent with the spirit and intent of the example exceptions at MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: key specialised information [that] is difficult to integrate into the body text, which is often better tabulated. I donot see how one might reasonably assert bias exists, when both sides are presently equally represented. As to the heading, it does presently list the commanders. We don't write an article to fit the lead. We do the reverse. The infobox is a supplement to the lead. Similarly, it is axiomatic that we don't write the article in the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:12, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
You’re saying the article is finished now? We should stop editing it, because, by definition nothing is missing and everything’s perfect? —MichaelZ.03:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
No. I am saying that if it is such fundamental information wrt other commanders/leaders and on such a high-profile page, one would reasonably expect that it would have been addressed by now and that it isn't (except for the two presidents/supreme commanders) indicates that it isn't so fundamental after all. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
There is no magical “by now” WP:DEADLINE. This article is WP:ASSESSed B class, meaning “mostly complete and without major problems but requires some further work to reach good article standards.” “It’s not in the article now therefore it mustn’t be added” is not a valid reasoning. Our consensus determines the content.
Zelenskyy is Supreme C-in-C but he is not in direct command or making any battlefield decisions, and below him there is a defence minister, military C-in-C, and chief of staff. Putin does meddle in the battlefield, but he also has a defence minister and CoS. This is the main article for the military campaign and should name the military leaders. —MichaelZ.17:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
@Cinderella157, sorry if I let my tone sound combative. My point is that your argument is fallacious. The assumption and logic that everything fundamental “would have been written into the article already” is wrong, and it’s not even related to the substance of the content issue. —MichaelZ.14:16, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
You are correct, There is no magical “by now” WP:DEADLINE. The assertion that some additional commanders are somehow fundamental is an opinion not supported by the body of the article at present. That is the criteria established by WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. When and if the article establishes the significance of additional commanders and their contributions (not just a passing mention that they exist) it will be appropriate to add such commanders per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. This is the guidances and the defined objective criteria for a logical argument to include or exclude additional commanders. Until then, because there is no WP:DEADLINE, we should not try to write the article in the infobox (per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE). Cinderella157 (talk) 09:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Docs at Template:Infobox military conflict say this is for “any changes in territorial control as a result of the conflict; this should not be used for overly lengthy descriptions of the peace settlement.” But territorial control is currently contested, and the final result is not yet determined. —MichaelZ.20:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
The 'foreign support' section is a bit problematic
This articles is about the Russian invasion in 2022. But the foreign support section covers NATO support from 2014-2021, that support came in response to Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and foreign support in Eastern Ukraine at the height of which Russia regular forces and offensive platforms were deployed inside Ukraine. Due to the scope none of the later is covered here and thus might seem to someone unfamiliar with the topic that NATO was supporting Ukraine while Russia was a natural observer. --Nilsol2 (talk) 16:28, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Could someone add {{Anchor|Casualties}} to the section "Casualties and refugee crisis". This section was renamed this morning, which has broken a load of section links, e.g. the "see the casualties section" note in the infobox. 192.76.8.81 (talk) 12:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC) 192.76.8.81 (talk) 12:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
The material on Darya Dugina is on the Wikipedia page for her. Should this material be covered as part of the Rearguard action on Crimea and the Russian mainland, or should it be excluded from the Invasion article. It appears to have taken place in the transition between the second phase of the invasion and the third phase of the invasion. It is also discussed in the Wikipedia article Killing of Darya Dugina. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Was it part of any rearguard action, if so by who?
Also how is this section even about a RearGuard as these attacks occurred long after Russia's annexation, surely they are counter-attacks? Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Also how would an attack in Russia be a rearguard action, as it is not a result of Ukraine retreating? So even if we have the bomb attack on Ms Dugina it is a counter-attack as well. Slatersteven (talk) 15:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
The rearguard action refers to actions taking place behind the front lines of the 2022 Russian invasion as summarized in the Wikipedia article for Dariya Dugina stating: "Darya Dugina, daughter of a prominent pro-Putin follower, was killed on 20 August 2022, when her car exploded on Mozhayskoye Shosse in the settlement of Bolshiye Vyazyomy outside Moscow around 9:45 p.m. local time." The allegations of Ukraine involvement are also covered in that Wikipedia article. It seems there are many reliable sources for this and that it should be considered for inclusion in this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
That is not what rearguard means. A rear guard protects the rear of either a retreating or an advancing force. As Ukraine is neither advancing towards, nor retreating from Moscow, or any other part of Russia the attack on here can't have been part of any rearguard action. At best (and we would need serious proof of this to include it here) it would be part of an asymmetric warfare action. Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
'Assymertic warfare action' might be a little unconventional for Wikipedia readers who can read the general Rearguard action Wikipedia page if needed. More directly, though, what do you think of just calling it 'retaliation' or political counterattack. It seems that either of these might work in this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm inclining to think that a better section title might be something like "Counteroffensives in Crimea and within Russia," or something like that. The material on Darya has been extensively covered in the international press with dozens and dozens of articles referring to Ukraine involvement; too many RS from major newspapers to fully exclude from the article. Maybe try your own wording for including some version of the Darya edit. The title to the section would look better in another format since your reference to "Rear" does not sound especially encyclopedic. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:18, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Rearguard action or not, I think a very brief mention is WP:DUE, along with a mention of the New York Times report that says the U.S. intelligence believes some elements of the Ukrainian government are responsible and that they would have opposed it had they known in advance [27]. IntrepidContributor (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Correct the list of Beligerents on Ukrainian side.
Ukrainians also use US satellites to aim artillery strikes. It's not just weapons provided, even if you ignore the US being behind Maidan to begin with 94.189.193.233 (talk) 15:56, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
USA provides satellite imagery of Ukraine to Ukraine: not an act of war. “US being behind Maidan”: Russian disinformation, and irrelevant sour grapes. —MichaelZ.17:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
I think, NATO is not actually sending Ukraine anything that is extremely useful. I suppose You could add USA, but the whole NATO is a bad idea Thehistorianisaac (talk) 17:37, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Causality update
The Moscow Times reports that "over 90,000 Russian soldiers have died, cannot be accounted for, or have suffered such serious injuries that they are unable to return to service". This should be added to the causality estimates.
Infobox shows no support from NATO/USA/EU for Ukraine and it seems that it's intended. Are there any reliable sources confirming that in fact there is no support for Ukraine? Mintus590 (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Agree - Couple of things here. What does the sentence mean '..After the signature..'? Needs a rewrite I suggest. There is a heading 'Rear action in Crimea' and this material really belongs there where there is a brief summary. It's duplication. I'll do it at some point.Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
I didn’t say Ukrainian attack. Your source doesn’t even consider possibilities that aren’t an attack, like an accident or something. I haven’t seen any that do.
I guess it doesn’t hurt to leave it open and say “explosion” when we don’t know the cause, but it would also be irresponsible to give the impression that it might be anything other than an attack, and I don’t have a problem with implying or assuming that the only likelihood is an attack. —MichaelZ.17:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
I wouldn't use that report - the first line says "a fire" - many sources described the incident as an explosion, which is the only thing that would have taken out a span of the bridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.48.23 (talk) 10:43, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
RfC about inclusion of "Peace efforts" section
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
Consensus was roughly for including this section (Question A), but it was against Option 2 of Question B. No one particularly felt strongly about Option 1, so it could be added and refined under the regular editing processes. (non-admin closure) –MJL‐Talk‐☖06:00, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This RfC has now been open for over a month. Perhaps it is time to close it and, if a consensus is believed to have been reached, be bold and act upon it in the article. BogLogs (talk) 04:53, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Explanatory note: This RfC is composed of two questions, but each is considered independently of the other; so a reply to Question B does not imply that the editor supports Question A. The options suggested for Question B are only initial forms, to be later built upon if neccessary.
Question A: Should this article include a "Peace efforts" section?
Question B: If a "Peace efforts" section was to be added, which form should it take? Option 1 or Option 2(see below)?
Peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine took place on 28 February,[1] 3 March,[2] and 7 March 2022,[3] in an undisclosed location in the Gomel Region on the Belarus–Ukraine border,[4] with further talks held on 10 March in Turkey prior to a fourth round of negotiations which began on 14 March. The Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba stated on 13 July that peace talks are frozen for the time being.[5] On 19 July, former Russian President and current Deputy head of the Russian Security Council, Dmitry Medvedev, said: “Russia will achieve all its goals. There will be peace – on our terms.”[6]
Peace talks led by Turkey were held between 28 February and July 2022. As of July 2022, peace talks were frozen indefinitely after the failure of both parties to reach a settlement. On April 9, United Kingdom's then-president, Boris Johnson, visited Kiev during the second phase of the peace talks without informing the Ukrainians in advance. On 5 May 2022, Ukrainska Pravda, a Ukrainian newspaper, published an article that it claims to be cited by sources close to Zelensky saying that the British prime minister brought two simple messages. The first is: "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with." And the second is that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not."[7] Fiona Hill, a veteran US diplomat who served as the US National Security Council’s senior director for Europe and Russia in the Donald Trump administration, published an article on the Foreign Affairs saying that Russia and Ukraine could have reached a peace agreement in April, according to which the Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion line and Ukraine would commit not to seek to join NATO, instead receiving security guarantees from a number of countries. Hill wrote that the "peace talks were apparently conducted by the Russian side in good faith."[8] Experts, such as John Mearsheimer, think that the collective west's goal in the Russo-Ukrainian war is "the conflict will settle into a prolonged stalemate, and eventually a weakened Russia will accept a peace agreement that favors the United States and its NATO allies, as well as Ukraine."[9]
@Slatersteven: Can you maybe format this to more clearly indicate on which question you are commenting? Just so it is easier for the closer to evaluate later. Also, it would be helpful to give a very brief overview of your arguments again, as this is not a vote, and the closer might not be able to find all previous points made in the other discussion(s). And again, you may (but don't have to) also voice your opinion on the Options for Question B, even if you don't think we should have a section. Think of it as chosing the "lesser evil", only for the case that consensus would develop to include it. –LordPickleII (talk) 12:17, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I have said no to a section, how much clear can I be. I am not going to give my support to something I do not support. If this RFC assumes the answer is "yes we must have a section" it is badly flawed and should thus be withdrawn. Slatersteven (talk) 12:23, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Yeah sorry, I guess it was clear enough, but anyway thanks for amending. And no, you don't have to vote on the second question. I am just hoping enough people oppose Option 2 so it never happens (tbh I'd rather have no section than it), but I think you have made your point clear on that below. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
@Slatersteven: would you mind briefly summarising the reasons why you're against a section? Alternatively could you point me to which parts of the above discussions are relevant? It'll save me some time trying to understand your argument by scrolling through the rather large discussions further up the page. Jr8825 • Talk16:39, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
That's not particularly helpful! Skimming through the above threads, am I right in understanding your argument against a section on peace negotiations is 1) that this article is only about a specific "military campaign", not the war itself and 2) that the negotiations are unimportant because they failed? Jr8825 • Talk17:12, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I was trying to not create another cluttered RFC with umpteen responses for one post. But OK, I oppose this as this article is about the invasion of 2022, not the wider war, and yes also because they failed, so have had no impact on this invasion. Nor do they tell us anything about this invasion, and any context would best be covered in the other articles. Moreover, it is unlikely that these will be the last negotiations and (even if we accept their presence here) only the last one is really relevant. It is better covered elsewhere, with a see also here. Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I've continued this thread below in the new discussion section as there are things I'd like to discuss in more detail without crowding out other editors' opinions. Jr8825 • Talk20:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: Support. My primary reasoning is that per WP:SS, this is expected and allowed, and we have Template:Main to link to the main article. The counter-argument of "content should not be duplicated" doesn't make sense to me, and I know of no guideline or policy that would confirm it. And per WP:CORRECTSPLIT, point 6.: Create a good summary of the subtopic at the parent article.
Question B: Option 1. I strongly reject Option 2 as a gross violation of WP:NPOV, as it distorts the facts through WP:CHERRYPICKING from only parts of a few (reliable) sources, while completely ignoring most others. It does also not align with the main article, and so would violate the summary that would be expected. Editors may have suggested it in good faith; but it basically repeats Russian propaganda efforts that "the West" had prevented peace.
I agree with you regarding the fact that Option 2 is kind of cherry picking but I think that the article isn't satisfying the NPOV in the first place. It already chose its position in this issue, picking a side and picking on the other. All the details aren't attributed to the RS as it should. It doesn't represent multiple POVs. Treating Kremlin announcements as disinformation and fake news snd conspiracy theories while the American government's as solid facts. This violates Wikipedia's five pillars. This isn't right. This is not what Wikipedia is made for. Wikipedia is not a propaganda arm for neither sides. I think we all, as Wikipedia volunteers, should respect the reader to make their opinion on the matter by complying with Wikipedia's policies. It's for the reader to pick the side they feel is right. Not us to play their mind by twisting facts to pass our agenda because we think it's right.
Is the Eastern world pov a minority and extraordinary view? There are only two sides in this fight, the west and the east, how is the other side a minority? Formal governmental announcements aren't extraordinary. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 12:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
We aren't to decide that the Western governmental claims are solid facts while the Russian's and Chinese are not. One either equally treat all governments' announcements as facts or fake news. But to treat the side that one agree with differently and say that all other POVs are extraordinary then claiming that they are trying to avoid making false balance is an utter cherry picking and a fallacy. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 13:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
There are only two sides in this fight, yes; but we are on neither, we are Wikipedia. As for POVs in the press, there are several: US, European, Russian, Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, etc. We do not chose to simply represent the Russian POV because they deserve it. "Not us to play their mind by twisting facts to pass our agenda because we think it's right" – I think that is exactly what Option 2 does, so I somewhat agree with you. Also, this RfC is not about the aricle in general, but about the section, specifically. We cannot achieve a balanced view by presenting one POV in parts, and another POV in others. We need NPOV everywhere; Slatersteven correctly pointed to WP:FALSEBALANCE, which is policy. Feel free to vote for one of the options in Question B, but maybe better give the reasonings in your own vote, not in a reaction to mine (it's more difficult to check later). –LordPickleII (talk) 13:09, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
@Super ninja2 you object that the article isn't satisfying the NPOV, but I think you're misunderstanding how the policy works. In a nutshell, Wikipedia policy is that we accurately summarize what Reliable Sources say about a subject.
Government controlled news in countries with low press freedom range from dubious to totally unreliable. Russian news organizations have long been established as not Reliable - for good reason. NPOV is that we address all significant views roughly in proportion to their presence in Reliable Sources. If essentially no Reliable Sources report some Russian claim, NPOV is that we do not report that claim. If substantially all Reliable Sources reporting on a Russian claim present it as a false claim, then NPOV is that we present it as a false claim.
If anyone attempts to argue that substantially all Reliable Sources are wrong, biased, or part of a conspiracy, then under policy that is an argument that we must accurately summarize that wrong/biased/conspiracy content. If anyone wants to argue Russian News sources are Reliable, Reliable Source Noticeboard is over here. However I doubt people at RSN are going to be friendly to another frivolous waste of time on that subject. Alsee (talk) 23:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Question 1: support having a section for peace negotiations. We do need a section to summarize the long main article. Readers need this section to decide whether they are interested in reading the main article or settle for the summary in this section.
Oppose. To both options. There are already two articles on Wikipedia which contain this information at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions#Peace efforts and also at 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations. It appears redundant to add a third copy of the same material for a third time at Wikipedia in this article. Does Wikipedia need a third version of this section already existing on two other Wikipedia articles. The present article on the invasion is already over 400Kb in size and super-adding a third copy of the same material in such a large article seems a poor choice. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Peace negotiations aren't "reactions" to the invasion. The brief summary at the reactions article (identical to option 1 presented here) should be added here and removed from there. The peace negotiations article is the WP:SPINOFF article that we're looking to summarise in the appropriate "overview meta-article" (to use the wording of the guidance), which in my view is this one. Jr8825 • Talk10:31, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: Support. It is standard to summarise a sub-article in a main article about a subject, just like Zaporizhzhia#Russian_invasion_(2022) in Zaporizhzhia, which is a summary of Russian occupation of Zaporizhzhia Oblast (needs updating). This RfC was called because one editor used abstract arguments against including a section summarising peace efforts. Another editor argued that the peace efforts aren't going anywhere (true, but besides the point). As we enter into the next (and hopefully, final) phase of the war, peace efforts are becoming one of the main issues that sources are reporting on this subject, and that's why we should include them in this article.
Question B: Option 1 is better than Option 2 because the commentary about Boris Johnson is unwieldy and polarising. As Ukrainians, we don't need a Brit to tell us that a peace deal with Putin isn't worth anything, and the earlier claim that we came close to an agreement with Russia in Istanbul [30] was reported as refuted by insiders [31]. I think the commentary from Hill and Mearsheimer belongs more in the main article, and they should be called commentators, not experts. I also think there should be a sentence about Zelenskyy's call on Putin for direct talks, which the Russians have dismissed. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: Strong support. Per WP:SS and WP:SPINOFF, this article is a high-level overview of the invasion and efforts to negotiate an end to the fighting are an important aspect of the topic; a brief section summarising the negotiations (providing an overview of the content at the sub-article) is therefore essential for our readers. This is what hatnotes such as {{main}} are for. There are perennial problems about the overlapping scope of this article and Russo-Ukrainian War, but that's outside the remit of this RfC, and this article remains the main place for content relating to the intensification of the conflict in 2022.
Question B: Weak support option 1, which I think is a suitably succinct summary of the main points, although the text shouldn't be seen as locked-in by consensus, rather as a basic building block. However, I believe the Bucha massacre should be mentioned, as I recall a number of RS stating that its discovery was a significant factor in the breakdown of talks. Strong oppose option 2, which has pretty serious WP:WEIGHT issues to my eyes. In particular, far too much emphasis is put on Johnson's actions, based on one Ukrainian source, which goes against the wider coverage in international press that I've read, which doesn't put anywhere near as much emphasis on Johnson's individual role (and as IntrepidContributor's points out, it could also be seen as devaluing the agency Ukraine has in making its own negotiating decisions, based on an exceptional claim without exceptionally strong sourcing). Additionally, the opinions of two commentators, a U.S. diplomat and Mearsheimer are undue. (I don't recognise the diplomat, but Mearsheimer holds minority views on the conflict, such as arguing NATO was largely responsible for the war, and therefore again due weight applies here – Mearsheimer's analysis is noteworthy but not suitable for a brief, broad summary of negotiations, it is only suitable for the main article on negotiations, and should be given coverage proportional to more mainstream analyses. Jr8825 • Talk16:32, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: no opinion. I can see arguments for including this, I can see arguments for leaving it out. It ultimately led to nothing, after all.
Question B: support option 1. Option 2 is too long, it implies that Boris Johnson stopped Kyiv from surrendering (excuse me, "ending the bloodshed"), and I see no reason to give Mearsheimer's opinion so much prominence when he's basically been wrong about everything. He continues to claim that Putin doesn't want to take over all of Ukraine when that is exactly what Putin says he wants and completely ignores the fact that Ukraine is a country with agency and security concerns of its own. He can be included in some sort of "reactions" article where we give the "it's-Nato's-fault!" crowd's opinion, but certainly not here in the main article.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:44, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Changed vote on Question A Per Cinderella157, this deserves at most a very brief mention in passing, not a dedicated section. If we're including one though I still prefer option 1 for question B.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Where else in this article would you summarise the negotiations? I don't see any existing section where a brief summary would logically belong. Jr8825 • Talk10:35, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: support, as the peace process is a key part of information about the conflict. Question B: neither option is ideal. Both seem to have cherrypicked quotes that display editorial bias. As a starting point, I would suggest using option 1 but without the last sentence. —Mx. Granger (talk·contribs) 20:39, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
No both as written. It would appear to me that some editors forget that we should be writing in summary style and that when we have a sub-article dealing with a particular aspect of content, detail like when Putin last farted and what Zelenskyy had for breakfast belongs there. The main article need only mention in passing a WP:SPINOUT - which it does without the need for a separate section. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
@Cinderella157: I only asked as I thought you might be responding to both of the options presented for Question B, rather than both questions. I don't see why summary style/using sub-articles means we shouldn't have a section summarising negotiations. If anything, I see it as a reason for having a brief section, as it ties together this article with the spin-off much better than relegating it to a "see also" link: the guidance at SPINOUT says "when you split a section from a long article into an independent article, you should leave a short summary of the material that is removed along with a pointer to the independent article". Regarding excess detail, this article currently includes miscellaneous minutiae such as the sale of 18 "CAESAR self-propelled howitzer systems, mounted on the Renault Sherpa 5 6×6 chassis" (I'll have a go at cutting the foreign military sales section soon, if nobody else does first, as it's a section I've highlighted in the past, too). This reminds me of the earlier discussion we had regarding the background section; it was sliced up and squeezed into a couple of sentences in order to save space even though there's plenty of less important fat to trim elsewhere. There's plenty of room for cuts that will provide space for a brief summary of the efforts to make (and occasions when) negotiators from both sides sat down. Jr8825 • Talk13:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
@Jr8825: I was just about to write the same, about the SPINOUT quote. Not that you can't be against it, Cinderella157, but your argument seems self-contradictory, with the policy you cited stating that we need such a subsection. This is the same for WP:SS (summary style), which you alluded to, but not linked. Quote from there (specifically WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE): Longer articles are split into sections, each usually several good-sized paragraphs long. [...] Ideally, many of these sections will eventually provide summaries of separate articles on the subtopics covered in those sections. And also: In the parent article, the location of the detailed article for each subtopic is indicated at the top of the section by a hatnote link such as "Main article", generated by the template {{Main|name of child article}}.(my emphasis in bold). This is exactly what's being discussed here, whether or not we should adhere to that. Article size is a concern I understand, but every pointer to policy or guidelines I have seen brought up seems to only support the opinion for a section. –LordPeterII (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Supporting Cinderella and Slatersteven on this. Wikipedia has multiple tools and procedures for dealing with this type of situation. Wikipedia does not need to re-duplicate articles three times in different places merely for the sake of making redundant copies with pointers and redirects to the same information content. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:25, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Err... no offense @ErnestKrause, but would you consider acknowledging the points above? Wikipedia has multiple tools and procedures for dealing with this type of situation – yes, those we pointed to above. If you can point to a different guideline that supports your view, it would help your cause! It's a little irritating to constantly hear "clearly, this should not be done", when we clearly have guidelines that disagree. That was a similar issue in another RfC I started, where people would give their opinion, without being able to back it up. You guys have had some valid arguments otherwise, but "article content must not be duplicated" is a really weak one at present. –LordPeterII (talk) 17:48, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Err... fully supporting Cinderella and Slatersteven on this. Both of them have articulated on this issue clearly and straightforwardly. Possibly you should re-read their statements which are really strong in comparison to your weak reading of their well-stated and well-directed points. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
The various guidance being cited would assume that a spinout article has been created from a section of the main article that has evolved to be of substantial size. This is not the case here. 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations was created here on 8 March 22. This version of this article (the main article) immediately prior to that creation has no such corresponding section and doesn't even mention the talks as far as I can see. The advice is not consistent with the particulars of this circumstance. Perhaps we should refer to 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations as a spinoff rather than a spinout. If one were to summarise 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations into this article it would read: Unsuccessful peace negotiations were held at A [place] from W-X [dates] and B from Y-Z [or similar]. In the greater scheme of things (this, the main article) these efforts to date (by virtue of their lack of success) are litte if anything more than a footnote and should be trated here accordingly. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:40, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Why must the peace efforts be successful in order include them as a section here? It won't be possible to lift the sanctions (on which we have a section) until Russia signs a peace deal with Ukraine [32], so it is not a minor detail. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: No per Cinderella and WP:PROPORTION. The failed peace talks were not significant enough to warrant a section the article. I'd suggest a single sentence along the lines of "Unsuccessful peace talks were held between Russia and Ukraine during February and March." instead. Details like the locations and dates of the talks, the number of rounds, comments from either on whether they were open to more negotiations, etc. don't add anything important; the talks didn't produce any results and until another round of negotiations happen there's nothing new to report.
Question B: Weak Support for Option 1 As mentioned, I think the detail's excessive, but if we are going to have a section it's an alright summary. Oppose Option 2 on NPOV and WEIGHT grounds. I agree with Jr8825's explanation of the problems with that option. --RaiderAspect (talk) 07:19, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Another argument claiming that the the "failed" peace efforts are a "minor aspect" (per WP:PROPORTION) when we have a huge amount of published material on the subject, including the widely reported statements from Putin, Lavrov, Nebenzya and Gatilov dismissing the possibility of a deal. There was also the alleged Abramovich poisoning during the peace talks in March, which gained very wide coverage. Either editors haven't read the WP:PROPORTION guidance, or the published material on the subject. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Question A: support, I fully agree with Mx. Granger (and others). The peace process to negotiate an end to the fighting are an important aspect of the topic. And that it is standard to summarise a paragraph in a main article about a subject with the relevant link. Question B: It doesn't matter so much now, it can be agreed later. I was mainly concerned with returning to the state before the paragraph, which was there for almost entire existence of the article, was removed without any agreement by the two users. Anyway, I think that both have cherrypicked quotes, it would be better with just the facts (like that the negotiations were for now suspended).Jirka.h23 (talk) 06:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Support for Question A: I find correct to cover the attempts to find a diplomatic solutions and it is correct to insert a brief summary in this article. Regarding Question B, I prefer Option 1 : I prefer to stick to facts and leave out comments and conjectures P1221 (talk) 07:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Support for Question A: I'm not in favour of either version as the summary does not cover any of the reasons and the changing events that stalled the talks. There were statements by both sides as I remember. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:06, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Support for question A with weak support for Option 1 though I imagine more information would be added to it in the future. In general I think it's a good idea to have at least a small section in war articles discussing meaningful peace attempts. BogLogs (talk) 12:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss the objections to a "peace negotiations" section that Slatersteven raises above, namely: (1) "this article is about the invasion of 2022, not the wider war", (2) "they failed, so have had no impact on this invasion" and (3) "it is unlikely that these will be the last negotiations". I'd like to offer some responses and hear others' opinions on them.
Regarding (1), this article already covers the broader aspects of the war since 24 February (e.g. foreign support, humanitarian/economic impact, global reactions). Its scope is more comparable to our article on 2003 invasion of Iraq, a distinct stage of intense fighting within the broader Iraq War, than it is articles on military campaigns within consistently intense wars (e.g. Operation Barbarossa). The 2003 invasion article covers the prelude, legality, looting, responses etc.; equally, negotiations to end the current fighting in Ukraine, which briefly made up a significant part of media coverage of the invasion for a period of a few weeks, seem within scope here. I recognise the distinction between this article and Russo-Ukrainian War is currently ambiguous (a point I acknowledged above), but that's a topic of discussion for another time – we should be making a decision based on this article as it stands, and the negotiations we're discussing were uniquely in response to the 2022 invasion: negotiations revolved around the occupation of large parts of Ukrainian territory and were very different in substance to previous negotiations centred around the War in Donbas, for example.
Regarding (2), I think if we apply the 10-year test it's likely future readers will want to know about the failed negotiations that took place early in the invasion but quickly broke down for various reasons (accusations of Russian bad faith, anger after the Bucha revelations). The previous negotiations are a part of the history of the invasion, even if they turn out to be a relatively minor part; for example, their failure may represent a moment when it became clear the invasion was developing into a longer-term conflict. They may also impact future negotiations.
Regarding (3), I think the best option is to write a summary of the peace negotiations that took place that we can then adjust when future negotiations take place. It's impossible to predict when and how this might occur, but we can easily reduce the coverage of the previous negotiations to something like "early in the war, a series of failed negotiations took place etc. etc., after XX/XX/2023, negotiations were reopened". Keen to hear others' responses to these points. Jr8825 • Talk20:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
^Roshchina, Olena (28 February 2022). Переговори делегацій України та Росії почалися [Negotiations between the delegations of Ukraine and Russia began]. Українська правда [Ukrayinska Pravda] (in Ukrainian). Archived from the original on 14 March 2022. Retrieved 7 March 2022. Деталі: Переговори відбуваються на Гомельщині на березі річки Прип'ять. Із міркувань безпеки точне місце організатори переговорів не називають. [Details: Negotiations are taking place in the Gomel region on the banks of the Pripyat River. For security reasons, the organisers of the talks did not name the exact location.]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not all blogs are treated the same. News blogs are acceptable sources because their "writers are professionals." So we can say that research organizations' blogs are acceptable sources too since their writers are professionals.
LSE Blogs are good, but should points should generally be attributed in-text to the author of the blog, as it's their personal view as an expert. Jr8825 • Talk15:38, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
I think given that polls showing the level of Russian support for the invasion have received a significant amount of coverage in reliable sources, it's WP:DUE to include in the article, but it should be briefer, and within the reactions section.
Radio Liberty is generally a respected source and I think acceptable for this purpose. The LSE blog is also not the same as a self-published source, and even it was, they're subject matter experts. I would prefer sources such as the NYTimes or BBC though Tristario (talk) 01:05, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
ErnestKrause, Slatersteven asked what you support, not who you support. Wikipedia editing is not based on voting and this is the second discussion I've seen you engage what looks like that. If I see you engaging on the talk page in this behaviour a third time, I will report it to the administrators and request your removal from this topic. IntrepidContributor (talk) 01:35, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Probably another source can just be used then, I don't think that's a big issue. Radio Liberty does not operate in the west so people largely only associate it with its cold war origins and the fact that it's funded by the US government. However, in my experience, its quality is on the level of a WP:GREL source. I have had a look at the reliable sources noticeboard archives and have not seen any substantive objections to its reliability besides the fact it's funded by the US government. Tristario (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
svoboda means liberty in a few different languages. The political party is named after the word for liberty. Svoboda.org is the website of radio liberty Tristario (talk) 13:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
There are already several articles on Wikipedia showing the Russian people's reaction to the invasion, so I'm not sure why the exact same thing should be in the main invasion article. Various opinion polls are used by the Kremlin in its propaganda campaign, which is also why opinion polls are allowed in Russia, unlike independent media. During the Iran-Iraq War, when Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in 1980, no one cared about opinion polls in Iraq because it was seen as Hussein's propaganda. Why is Putin's propaganda so important? There is a dictatorship in Russia, everything is decided by a narrow group of people led by Putin, all the media is controlled by Putin's regime and Russians are informed only about the Kremlin's version of events, people can be imprisoned for up to 15 years for criticizing the war and the Russian army, for spreading so-called "fake news". According to some sources, in telephone polls, a high percentage of people polled don't want to answer questions about the war in Ukraine or President Putin, because these are topics that are subject to prosecution in Russia, so the question is whether these polls can be trusted, even if it's from Levada. It should definitely be mentioned in Wikipedia, but why in this main article? --Tobby72 (talk) 11:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
We won't say the exact same thing, we provide a briefer summary of those things in this article. And we can include caveats as reported in reliable sources. I don't think this talk page is the right place for a discussion about details of authoritarianism and propaganda in Russia, and I don't want to get bogged down in a discussion about that. Ultimately that's irrelevant, we'll just say what the reliable sources say. Tristario (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Kremlin propaganda? What are you talking about? You mean we should hide any information that is used by the Russian side (or any side you don't like) even if it's 100% true and satisfy Wikipedia's rules and policies and mentioned in multiple RS? Your argument is not adequate and doesn't make any sense and therefore is not considered.
There is No consensus for your edit earlier today in the main space for this article on the Talk page here which is still in progress. You have been contacted by two editors on your Talk page regarding this matter and associated edits you have made. Establish consensus on the Talk page here prior to further edits. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
ErnestKrause, your response to Editor:Super ninja2 proclaims a consensus based on a number of editors and like the rest of your posts in this discussion, it did not make any substantive argument for or against the content. Please put a stop to this behaviour lest I take it to an administrator noticeboard. IntrepidContributor (talk) 01:41, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't mind a summary of polls on main article pages. The problem is when they are conducted under autocratic regimes, when there is a clear self-censoring effect. I cleaned up a sloppily written attempt which made it clear that a) under the Putin autocratic regime, accurate polling is difficult, b) I inserted 'polled' and 'surveyed' to stress that this was the opinion of those polled, not the general population, c) I made clear that the polls covered the period just prior to, and just after, the invasion, i.e., implying they may not represent present opinion. I suggest my revision (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1112295639&oldid=1112281240&diffmode=source)is an adequate starting point for further revisions. Full disclosure: I have Rus ancestry, I have visited Russia several times, I was director of a social survey center conducting public polling in countries with both autocratic and military regimes, I have a relationship with a UN peacebuilding NGO, and I have worked with one or more militaries. Johncdraper (talk) 17:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
As I've said I think we should be include polling in this article however it needs to be briefer than what attempts so far have done, this article is not the place for an extended discussion about polling in Russia, and it also needs to comply with WP:NPOVTristario (talk) 00:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
I like Johncdraper's longer version for the Reactions page and your summarised version for this page. It can be expanded and updated as public sentiment in Russia becomes clearer. IntrepidContributor (talk) 01:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
It is so short. The article is so long and contains details on every aspect including a section about foriegn protests which is not directly related to the war. So why this section has to be brief?! If anything, the section about foriegn protests is the one that has to be removed. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 15:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Super ninja2 was it necessary to delete the summarised version instead of trying to expand it a bit with some context? Some editors oppose including anything, and some oppose including too much, so a summary seems like a good place to start. IntrepidContributor (talk) 01:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree with IntrepidContributor that JohncDraper's version should be adopted. I believe that given the context of the issue, the depth of the article a more detailed version should be included. This perspective gives justice to the topic and I don't see the downside of more details. Jurisdicta (talk) 15:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause This was what was suggested, and no one objected to it for over a week. If you wanted to object to including this, you had over a week to do so. What is your objection to including at least a brief mention of polling in this article? As I said people can expand and adjust it Tristario (talk) 11:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Slatersteven has not objected to including a mention of polling in this article. He had some issues with the sources and we discussed that. What is your issue with this edit? Tristario (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy for Support and Oppose comments is that they stand for the duration of the discussion taking place. It is not a matter of the 'most recent comments' approach which you appear to be wanting to apply. You need to follow WP:Consensus and reach consensus on the Talk page. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I would suggest reading through the page you just linked because your understanding of consensus is wrong. Reaching consensus is a natural process where people continually move the discussion forward and attempt improvements and changes which address or make a compromise with other people's concerns, based on policy. It does not mean absolutely everyone that was ever involved in the discussion needs to explicitly agree to a particular edit before that edit is even made. Tristario (talk) 12:03, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
There appears to be no added support for your edits and you appear to be edit warring to force your version of the edit into the article. If you continue edit warring to force your version of the edit into the article without consensus then any editor can submit your name for edit warring. Both Slatersteven and myself are opposed to your edit. Your edit is reverted following Wikipedia policy for edit warring. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:53, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
@Slatersteven did not object to the inclusion of information about polling in this article, he had some issues with the sources, and we discussed that. @ErnestKrause You are the only person objecting to any inclusion of information about polling in this article, I haver repeatedly asked you what your rationale is for your objection, and you have not explained. Besides you there is broad support on the talk page for at least some information about polling in the article. You are the one editing against consensus.
Not that consensus is not a unanimous vote. You cannot simply say "I object" and then refuse to ever explain why. Note on WP:TALKDONTREVERT it says "arguments like 'I just don't like it' usually carry no weight whatsoever" Tristario (talk) 21:53, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Actually yes I can, if I have no more to add, silence cannot be taken as acquiescence. If I do not say yes, it means I do not accept your arguments. But I will say that if we include this it should only be about a line, and must point out how the polls may be biased. Personally, I am unsure what it adds, as these are snapshots that may not reflect the real situation (given the allegations of bias). Slatersteven (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
So you're fine with including information about polling in the article then?
You never said you objected to the inclusion of information about polling. You objected to two sources, one because you thought it was the website of a political party (which it wasn't, and that source isn't in this edit), and the other because you said it was a blog. However, the discussion demonstrated that it wasn't a self published source, and the acceptability of the source was supported by other people. Regardless, that source does not need to be used, anyway. Tristario (talk) 22:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
And as I said "Actually yes I can, if I have no more to add, silence cannot be taken as acquiescence. If I do not say yes, it means I do not accept your arguments.", I objected to inclusion and thus without my withdrawing it that objection should have stood. But you are correct in that once my concerns had been addressed (assuming I agreed they had been) I should have made other objections more clear, I now have. Slatersteven (talk) 11:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
You never objected to inclusion either, though, you just objected to the sources. Thank you for engaging, anyway. I was not inserting the same edit that you previously objected to (which was added by someone else), by the way, it is a substantially reduced edit that also includes concerns about the reliability of the polling. So, to be clear, you do object to the inclusion of this edit? Is there a way that it could be adjusted that would make it acceptable to you? Tristario (talk) 11:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean about the past tense, since it's already in the past tense? How is this:
Polls conducted following the invasion in February and March found between 58% and 81% of Russians said they support the war,[1][2] and polling conducted into September continued to indicate support from a majority of Russians.[3][4][5] However, the accuracy of polls may be affected by self-censorship due to a fear of voicing dissent and new censorship laws, as well as concerns about indifference in the population and wording of polls.[1][2][4]Tristario (talk) 23:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Would you like to try writing a couple of sentences on Russian polling that you would accept, even if to state they are unreliable, and why? Johncdraper (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
If pressed on this issue, it might be useful to consider adding a small edit to the current phrase in the reactions section which states, "...public response, media responses, peace efforts,...", and adding the phrase "polling responses" piped to the Reactions article and indexed to the polling section there. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:26, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
Your source is from July, and it says Ukraine has one million ready to recapture south (and also contradicts itself in the first sentence saying it is massing a million-strong force). Not one million involved in combat, but ready. Something better would be a newer source that says how many troops are / have been involved in combat.
Strength = “the number of people comprising a group.” Ukraine’s military strength is the number in its military, not the number involved in combat. Often military strength is subdivided as to active (ready) forces and reserves, but this may be difficult to pin down as Ukraine has mobilized and has been constantly generating more forces.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What is missing
Good morning. IMHO We need two separate pages regarding:
Targeted killings listing people like Valery Kuleshov, Dmitry Savluchenko, Serhii Tomko, Darya Dugina, Sergei Gorenko and many others occurred in the occupied zones or outside Ukraine (or even their attempts by partisans) I think is needed.
War on cities with the several attacks (and/or retaliatory attacks) occurred to the civilian cities (Mariupol theater; Vuhledar; Kramatorsk; Zapo; Odessa; Kiev; Lviv… and on Russian hand/side like Donetsk; Belgorod etc.) or their infrastructures (Markets; Hospitals; Electic power plants, Railway stations, bridges [eg. Zatoka Bridge ([34]) targeted at least 8 times] etc.) and the use of ballistic missiles (Tochka-U, Iskander) or Kalibr cruise missiles (Moldovan Airspace violation and consequent official protest), use of Iranian drones (renamed Geran 2).
You appear to be editing without reliable sources to draw your conclusions. You are also not answering Talk page comments, while at the same time commenting on other threads on the same Talk page. You need to follow RS, and I have given multiple reliable sources for my edit. I request you explain why you are reverting without any reliable sources, when I am presenting multiple reliable sources. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
There are multiple reliable sources making this report. Russian diplomatic officials have made this claim, and Estonian diplomatic officials have gone on the record as denying it. Also, Ukraine has put forward diplomatic officials to deny the claim made by Russia. Just read the Wikipedia articles for Darya Dugina and Killing of Darya Dugina. Regarding the Crimean bridge incident, I'm not sure what your issue is? What are your reliable sources saying was the cause of the bridge incident? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:57, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Well we can easily solve the issue using Alleged targeted killing and so on. Moreover War on cities is a fact, nobody else own Kalibr SLCM cruise missiles except Russia. Nicola Romani (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
We have two separate questions asked in the OP, then we have comments about the editing of already existing sections, and not in the creation of new articles (the OP,s question). Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
There are two sections now for dealing with this. If Nicola would like to add further edits to the 'Russia' section such as the one about Rostov, then I'll try to support here: [36]. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I do not think that Dugina and her death are notable enough to be included on this very general page. She was just a barely notable propagandist. And a lot about her killing still remains unknown. And how she is relevant to this war? The text does not explain it. This is definitely undue on this page. As about other mentioned people (Valery Kuleshov, etc.), I do not see any sources. My very best wishes (talk) 02:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
So, once again, no one knows for sure if assassination was targeting her father ("apparently" does not work here). Moreover, no one knows who was behind this assassination. An unnamed US official saying something was possibly a disinformation, especially because he/she did not provide any details. Overall, the connection of this material to the subject of the page is highly questionable at best; this is certainly undue on this page. Remember, this is main page about the war. Some other pages - yes, no problem, this can be included. You guys need WP:CONSENSUS for including this material. My very best wishes (talk) 16:44, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
In addition, I do not understand your edit summary here. The Crimea sections are fine, I did not remove them. As about bombings in Russia, yes, there were quite a few of them. So what? My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
You appear to be edit warring on the article main space in opposition to Wikipedia policy against edit warring. You appear to be reverting against two editors in agreement on those related edits. May I ask you to stop edit warring against Wikipedia policy and establish consensus on the Talk page first prior to further edits. You appear to have no support for your reverts. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I do not see consensus to include it based on discussion in this thread. To the contrary, you (and only you) re-include this new material [37] without consensus. In addition, you did not respond anything of essence to my objections to include just above. My very best wishes (talk) 22:42, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
The edit under discussion for those two sections were created last week by Steven and myself; which was done when the Crimean bridge explosion was being discussed in the press, and reverbations of the Darya Dugina death were in the international press and in the NY Times. Aleksandr Dugin is a prominent pro-Putin author and any targeting of him or his family has been found to be relevant in the international press and in the NY Times. Targeting high-ranking members of Putin's government and advisors has been covered extensively by RS. RS should be relevant in this article and retained. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
How come? (a) the edit was made by you [38], (b) I do not see anyone supporting this inclusion in discussion above, (c) this text does not say anything about the Crimean bridge explosion (yes, that explosion should be included, and it is included), (d) no, even Dugin himself is not mentioned on this page anywhere (and rightly so), hence mentioning his daughter is even less justifiable. My very best wishes (talk) 00:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Keith D There is a current discussion with "User:My very best" which is being interrupted by drive-through editors who are section blanking the edit currently under discussion on this Talk page. I'm not able to respond intelligibly to "User:My very best" without being able to reference the section which is being section blanked by editors who are not participating in this Talk discussion. I request a roll-back of the 'Events in Russia' section to a neutral point from one week ago as edited by User:Steven here:[40]. This would allow Talk page discussion to continue. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
That is not how it works (you get consensus for inclusion, not exclusion we do not keep something that is up for discussion), and you can post the text here for discussion. And do not assume I agreed with its conclusion, I did not (as I said more than once). All I did was to make it as neutrally worded as possible in order to compromise. As at the time is was just a dispute between you and me, and I felt it best to end it. Every one of my objections still stands. Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm requesting that the edit which you made to be restored. Once restored you can then make your pro and contra statements as you prefer; you can side with which ever editor you decide is best for the article. "User:My best wishes" is an experienced editor and I'm requesting to be able to present her with the citations being requested. Once the section is restored, I'll then be able to add the citations being requested in an intelligible manner; then you can state your support or opposition. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Oh no, you are mistaken. This is the opposite. Per WP:CONSENSUS, the initial/default version was one that existed before you inserted your text without having consensus. By removing this text I acted stricktly per WP:BRD. You made "bold edit" (inclusion of new content). I reverted and provided all reasons why. Now it is your turn to get consensus for inclusion. That's why two other contributors reverted your edit. Please respond to my substantial objections above ("How come?" etc.) if you want to convince me and others. Basically, did Dugin play a significant role in this invasion (the subject of this page)? Can you prove this with RS? If not, the inclusion of his daughter is even less justifiable. My very best wishes (talk) 17:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
You need to engage with My very best wishes' objections instead of simply asserting consensus or lack of consensus. As of right now their objection seems well reasoned Tristario (talk) 23:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I am adding the disputed addition here for reference, rather than reinserting in to the article while discussion continues. Keith D (talk) 21:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Darya Dugina, daughter of prominent pro-Putin follower Aleksandr Dugin, was killed on 20 August 2022, when her car exploded on Mozhayskoye Shosse in the settlement of Bolshiye Vyazyomy outside Moscow around 9:45 p.m. local time.[1][2] She was driving to Moscow after attending the annual festival "Tradition", which describes itself as a family festival for art lovers.[1] The "Tradition" festival is held at the Zakharovo estate,[1] approximately 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) north of Bolshiye Vyazyomy. Investigators said an explosive device was attached to the underside of the car.[3] It is unclear whether she was targeted deliberately, or whether her father, who had been expected to travel with her but switched to another car at the last minute, was the intended target,[1] or whether the intention might have been to kill both.[4]
This is a more or less OK and well-sourced text (it only incorrectly defines Dugin as "pro-Putin follower"), but how is it related to the subject of this page? Cited text does not explain any relevance. Yes, Dugin and she strongly supported the invasion, just as a lot of other people in Russia. Russian FSB claimed this to be a terrorist act by the Ukrainian government, and provided some evidence widely seen as fabricated. Ukrainian government officially denied any involvement. Some said that was a contract killing due to the business dealings by her father. Others said she was killed by Russian political assassins. Yet some others said it was an assassination by the FSB. Who knows? Dugin criticized Putin [41]. Yes, that was possibly something related to the war (we do not really know it), but definitely not deserving the inclusion here. This is main page about the invasion. She was just a barely notable propagandist. This is not blowing up the Crimean bridge. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks to Keith for setting up this discussion in order to move forward. Darya Dugina was the daughter of Aleksandr Dugin, a far-right political philosopher, whose political views and support for Vladimir Putin she shared.[1][2][3] She appears not to have been the primary target, but her father appears to have been the primary target, who had been expected to travel with her but switched to another car at the last minute.[4] See also another report in this citation on whether the intention might have been to kill both.[5]
The list of RS on Alexandr Dugin as an influengtial voice upon Putin and his cabinet is extensive and I can also provide links here if needed. Darya Dugina was also posthumously awarded a medal of recognition by Putin after her death. Given the large number of reliable sources, this edit should be restored to the main article as related to Activity in Russia taking place during the 2022 Russian invasion. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
You did not address my concerns. The number of RS is irrelevant because the issue is the importance of her killing for this page. Did Dugin start this war? No. Did Putin start this war because Dugin convinced him? No, judging from sources I read. But even if he did, that would be a completely different text about how Dugin influenced this war. My very best wishes (talk) 15:30, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Other war info boxes have this, why not this one?
Just a few examples of many that could be used
If the answer is “because it plays into Russian propaganda”, that’s not acceptable. Wikipedia is not censored. If something is true, it should be included where appropriate even if it lends support to someone most users oppose.—Jfhutson (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
In other wars, those indirectly involved are included in the infobox. For example, the Korean War box has Israel because they gave the South Koreans $100k in food aid. I don’t think we have to include humanitarian support, but surely nations providing lethal military aid should be listed as supporters. —Jfhutson (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not playing neutral on this 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022 Russia- NATO war) issue. In many article where other country/group provided military aid they were added in infobox. NATO is playing the main role in this war. They are providing all kind of military intelligent, weapons, money, spy to Ukraine. The United States alone has allocated aid worth $65 billion, over ten times Ukraine's pre-war defense budget and on par with the entire annual military spending of Russia. However giving hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid, decisively turning the conflict in Ukraine's favor, should probably be mentioned in the infobox. You don't need to have boots on ground to be a supporter of a belligerent, that is the entire point of a "Supported by" section. I think this page is playing a dual standard. Shahidul Hasan Roman (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
So far the discussion has been whether or not to include certain supporters in the article and infobox, which discussion just a couple threads up is covering. For the most part reliable sources do not list most countries providing aid as belligerents or as involved militarily in the conflict. As for other articles, WP:OTHERSTUFF exists. and for every article that has supporters listed this way in the infobox there exists a similar article that does not. No global consensus exists as far as I know regarding the way this is approached. So far, the archive indicates past discussions reached consensus against listing weapons sales or financial support in this manner. King keudo (talk) 23:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Its been suggested that an infobox be added to the Military aid subsection of this article, though no-one has developed an Infobox for that section. It seems unlikely that such information will make it into the main Infobox unless a subsection in the Military aid subsection receives such a dedicated infobox first. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Belarus is listed as a Russian supporter for simply allowing Military acess but NATO isn't listed as an Ukraine supporter despite sending massive Military aid?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
They are only selling drones. Selling Military weapons doesn't need a special mention. Every sovereign country in the world does this kind of trade on a regular basis. But the NATO members are providing direct billions amount of free military weapons, supplying direct military intelligence in Ukraine to Fight Russia. This should be a special mention. Shahidul Hasan Roman (talk) 22:02, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose adding Iran to the "support" section of the infobox for the Russian side for sending drones and trainers, and North korea for sending soldiers to build infrastructure in the annexed parts of Ukraine. We should add NATO and the EU to a "support" section for Ukraine. 2603:7000:3B40:B500:BDB8:F15E:64FD:F7EC (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Add Syria to Russia's "Supported By" section of belligerents infobox
It has been well documented that Syrian mercenaries, and regular military units of the Syrian Army (The 25th Division to name one), have been deployed to and experienced combat in the Kherson region. Syria itself has been added to the infobox of the Kherson Counteroffensive, so it would make sense to add it here similar to how Belarus has been added. DragonLegit04 (talk) 01:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
If it can be shown that regular military units (not mercs) have been deployed, yes we can add them. But we need to see some RS saying it. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The reports appear to be somewhat isolated in the press such as here: [42]. Is the mainstream press covering this story about Syrian troops with RS? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:13, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Institute for the Study of War talks about this, including Syrian régime cooperation in recruiting. These reports include reference links to their sources.
March 11:[43] “The Kremlin announced plans to deploy foreign fighters, including up to 16,000 Syrian fighters, to Ukraine”
March 13:[44] “Ukrainian intelligence provided further details on Russia’s initiative to deploy existing pro-Assad units to Ukraine and recruit additional Syrian and Libyan mercenaries on March 13”
March 14:[45] “Russia continues to face difficulties replacing combat losses and increasingly seeks to leverage irregular forces including Russian PMCs and Syrian fighters”
March 17:[46] “The GUR reported that the Russian military ordered its base in Hmeimim, Syria to send up to 300 fighters from Syria to Ukraine daily. The GUR additionally reported that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has promised to recruit 40,000 Syrian fighters to deploy to Ukraine. The GUR reported Russian authorities are promising Syrian recruits that they will exclusively act as police in occupied territories.”
March 23:[47] “Russian efforts to bring Syrian forces into Ukraine may be encountering challenges”
“Russia is attempting to redeploy Syrian units with experience working under Russian commanders to Ukraine to mitigate high Russian casualties”
“Russia began a redeployment of Wagner units and their Syrian proxies from Africa and Syria to Ukraine in early February‚”
“Russian forces are redeploying within Syria in order to recruit and mobilize additional Syrian fighters for a second wave of reinforcements [to deploy to Ukraine]”
“Russia is leveraging its pre-existing relationships with multiple pro-regime units to coordinate the recruitment and select individuals from these units with combat experience”
“Finally, Russia is attempting to recruit and train a wider range of pro-regime Syrian fighters”
April 20:[49] “Ukrainian forces reported the presence of small numbers of Syrian or Libyan mercenaries fighting in Popasna (eastern Ukraine), likely individual recruits fighting under the umbrella of the Wagner Group rather than larger units”
These sources seem more than enough to justify the addition to the infobox as providing support. If boots on the ground, large military units, are sent they should then be listed as a belligerent. BogLogs (talk) 22:14, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I am against this. If the NATO member countries that have provided hundreds of billions of dollars of aid to Ukraine, proving a decisive factor in the war thus far, are not mentioned the infobox neither should Syria for sending a handful of mercenaries that will prove inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 19:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The decisive factor is if reliable secondary sources say so.
It doesn’t matter if it’s pennies or billions. Not fighting is not fighting. It is not participation in an international conflict. (“Handful”?)
If these are really only individuals part of Wagner PMC then they are a Russian outfit. But if the Syrian government and military are part of recruiting them, then that may be something else. If it is forming up units and handing them over to Wagner’s command, that is something else too. There’s a reason Western governments are having nothing to do with Ukraine’s foreign legion. —MichaelZ.23:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure officially supporting, while having a plethora of your member nations freely donate hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid both counts as "participation" (look up the definition of that word), and warrants a mention in the infobox. That's the entire point of "Supported by" section. Furthermore, noncombatants are listed in the Vietnam War infobox, and is thus warranted here. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 00:16, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
No, legally that is not participation in an international conflict. States give each other military aid all the time, and that does not create a conflict, so doing it during a conflict that is not participating in one either. Look it up.
I honestly believe at this point you are a case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. I and many others have explained to you that they would not be listed as a belligerent, but as supporting a belligerent, which they (NATO) are by their own admission. They are giving copious amounts of military hardware to a belligerent nation in an armed conflict, for the express purpose of winning said conflict. Q.E.D., they belong in the "Supported by" section of the infobox. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 03:51, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Sorry if I’ve been unclear. Let me spell it out in case you can’t hear me. Belligerent has a legal meaning: participant in an international conflict (a war).
Belarus may belong because – although it is not a participant in the military conflict – it is guilty of the crime of aggression by providing its territory for direct attacks against Ukraine by Russian land forces and Russian missile attacks. It literally and directly supported aggression by criminal acts defined in the UN’s definition of aggression.
“Supporters” on the surface means states that support Ukraine. Going by UN resolutions that could mean 143 states that have condemned Russian aggression. Supporters in this sense are not belligerents. “Supporters” should not be presented as a subcategory of “Belligerents” if it used to mean states that support Ukraine.
Providers of military training, equipment, weapons, and ammunition are not belligerents either. Military provisions are traded and donated all the time, without creating a state of international conflict or war, and so such provisioning does not make a state a belligerent in a conflict. “Supporters” in this sense are not belligerents and the label should not be presented in such a way as to imply that they are. —MichaelZ.17:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Belligerent hasn't been the legal term for a long time. You may be thinking of "party to the conflict". Further, your point about Belarus has to do with whether it can be considered an aggressor, which it can, under the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 definition of aggression. This is irrelevant, though as not all belligerents, or parties to a conflict, are the aggressors. It then follows that not all supporters of belligerents need to be supporters of the aggressive party, nor do they need to be belligerents themselves to be considered supporters. In fact, showing them as supporters implies that they are not belligerents themselves, not the other way around. That's the whole point of the "Supported by" section.
Your argument seems more that Belarus should be considered a belligerent because the UN would define it as an aggressor, or that there shouldn't be a "Supported by" section at all, but it doesn't give a good reason that NATO shouldn't be a shown in that section if the section is there. Look up any definition of support, legal or otherwise. Keeping NATO out of that section ignores the facts, plain language and common sense. entropyandvodka (talk) 10:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Are those comments an example of plain language and common sense? And facts? That's the whole point of the "Supported by" section. Says who? The docs for template:Infobox military conflict explain the whole point, and I don’t see that in them.
Yes, belligerents are parties to an armed conflict. That’s what should appear under “Belligerents,” including legal aggressors and self-defenders.
Yes, it should include the odd case an aggressor that is not legally a party, because it only committed act (f) in the list of (a) through (g) in Article 3.[50]
Tacit in your entire argument is an assumption that Wikipedia should conform specifically to UN legal terms. Can you justify why that should be the case? Should Wikipedia infoboxes only show supporters in a conflict if the UN deems them parties to the conflict?
While there may be no need, in your opinion, for the Supporters byline, that leaves it up to the editors. In this particular case, the scale and impact of NATO support on this conflict is both substantial and well documented, and an at-a-glance picture of the conflict would be incomplete and misleading without it. entropyandvodka (talk) 17:20, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
The huge help Western weapons have given Ukraine against Russia is undeniable. We will have that arms supplies discussion over and over again until they're added to the infobox. Not fighting is not fighting. It is not participation in an international conflict. indeed. Adding those countries at the same level as Ukraine would be a mistake. But the proposal was to make a "Supported by" section or similar. SuperΨDro10:30, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
If your feelings are drawing you towards looking at this issue, why do you not create an infobox for placement within the section for "Foreign military sales and aid" to list the nations providing such support. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
This is an interesting idea but it begs the question of why we wouldn't simply list the supporting countries in the original infobox again as many other wikipedia articles do without controversy. BogLogs (talk) 04:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
It seems that the sub-infobox in the "Foreign military sales and aid" section would be needed first, in order to attract any serious consideration for the possible later inclusion in the main infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
This is a very bizarre argument. In what other article on wikipedia has a sub-infobox been required for data to be amended in the main info box (much less even for consideration of it as you have written)? That said if you would like to make a sub-infobox as you have proposed and post it here for discussion at the very least I suppose that might move things from a dead stand still and open the way to moving towards a future consensus. BogLogs (talk) 23:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Not completely clear how you have moved from your statement "This is an interesting idea" to your statement "very bizarre" comment. It seems like it would be easier to get your edit into that infobox information in the subsection, before you try to make arguments for getting it into the main infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Your first comment was about the creation of a an infobox for the section for "foreign military sales and aid". While not the outcome I think is best for the article, I do think its an interesting idea and it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world to discuss it. Your following comment that it would be required for discussion of further points is what is bizarre to me. We have already been discussing in depth changes to the infobox, why would a sub-infobox be required for infobox changes much less continued discussion?
That said again, I don't think the original idea you came up with is a bad one by any means, if this is a serious idea on your part why not make an infobox model for the subsection to be discussed further? BogLogs (talk) 09:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Sticking to the original idea then, my concern is to indicate the difficulty factor of doing this. For any editor who wishes to do this, there will be the initial difficulty of getting it first into the 'Foreign military sales and aid" section, then there would be the even more difficult task of trying to transfer it to the main Infobox. Each of these represents added difficulties. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for this reply, I can understand what you mean more clearly now. It wouldn't be my preferred solution but you are correct any change at this point would probably require a great deal of determination and effort by those editors. BogLogs (talk) 11:31, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
You should absolutely add Syria, Iran, NATO, Transinistra, whatever have been cited to have given any sort of support to any of the sides, these are things that we know by living at this era and time, but in the following years people will open this page and not know which country supported the war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.108.243.210 (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
"supported the war" and aiding a victim of the Putin regime's aggression are not the same thing
I am not sure. If Russia just recruited a number of individuals from Syria (I thought that was the case), that would not justify inclusion. However, if these guys came as a unit of Syrian army and fought as such, that would be different. What sources say? According to ISW [51], "Russia’s attempt to generate Syrian recruits appears to focus on individual replacements for Russian fighters rather than the redeployment of existing Syrian militias as coherent units." Based on that, I would say no. My very best wishes (talk) 03:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=1> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=1}} template (see the help page).
Not done: This heading change was reverted. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 18:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Fixed - thanks for highlighting these, Ribidag. Jr8825 • Talk 12:31, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Done But I failed to attribute the change to you, Delukiel. Sorry, I didn't know until now that I was supposed to do that :/ But it's fixed :) –LordPeterII (talk) 21:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
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Not done It's the correct label. Tartan357 (talk) 19:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
