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Change Infobox sub-heading from 'Belligerents' to 'Military alliances'

  Russia
  Ukraine
  Countries sending military aid to Ukraine during the 2022 invasion
  Russia
  Ukraine
  Countries sending any aid, including humanitarian aid, to Ukraine

The current structure of this invasion article is based upon a four-part division of the range of support being provided to the countries involved as ranging between military alliances at one end, and political neutrality on the other end. The two additional gradations introduced in the "Military aid" section of the article are illustrated in the demographic map illustrations which are: (a) Countries supplyling aid to Ukraine, and (b) Countries supplying any aid, including humanitarian aid, to Ukraine.

If this four part gradation of the level of support existing between nations is not sufficient for this Invasion article, then it should be discussed here on the Talk page. The four part distinction being used to describe the level of support between nations presently being used in the article can be summarized as: (i) Military alliances, (ii) Countries supplying military supplies or aid to Ukraine, (iii) Countries supplying any aid, including humanitarian aid, to Ukraine, and (iv) Countries which are politically neutral. It might be useful to consider changing the ambiguous designation of "Belligerents" to "Military alliances" in the current main Infobox given the current structure of the article as a whole. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I’m opposed.
Regarding alliances, Ukraine is not part of any military alliance. Russia’s military alliance, the CSTO, is not participating in or supporting its invasion.  —Michael Z. 14:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
[corrected typo: many → any. —Michael Z. 20:13, 22 October 2022 (UTC)]
Both you and Steven appear to feel that there is some gradation between a military alliance, and Countries supplying aid to Ukraine, though you are not stating what criteria you would apply to that unspecified gradation. It would be useful to hear how you could sketch out this unstated gradation between Military alliances and Countries supplying military supplies. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/military-alliance, so does the English language. So we need RS saying there is a formal military alliance.Slatersteven (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Belarus and Russia have a military alliance in the Collective Security Treaty Organization with several dozen RS available. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:09, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
But this is not about just them. Slatersteven (talk) 13:16, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
military alliance: “a formal agreement between nations concerning national security.”
It’s not a gradation; it’s black or white. A military, defence, or security alliance comprises states that have a defence treaty.
Yes, Russia is in the 6-member CSTO. No, it doesn’t belong in the infobox under belligerents because it’s not involved.  —Michael Z. 14:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
The significant part of CSTO is that Belarus has acted as a military ally of Russia by providing safe conduct to Russian troops for the purpose of attacking Ukraine. Belarus is listed in the Infobox largely because of this. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Mzajac, Ukraine is not even part of some formal military alliance (such as NATO) and as far as I am aware is not even in an Economic one (such as the EU). Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. According to the map, the supposed "military alliance" includes Australia, New Zealand, and a few countries in South America and Middle East, along with Europe, USA, etc. That is wrong. Ukraine is not a part of any formal military alliances. Such image, when framed as a "military alliance", promotes the Russian propaganda narrative that Russia was attacked by the "collective West". My very best wishes (talk) 15:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per the reasons already stated. - HammerFilmFan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.8.120 (talk) 01:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment I would point out that one does not simply just change an infobox and that this infobox only exists as a stand-alone template under sufferance of the broader Wiki community as a temporary measure. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. This was not meant as a straw poll. My comment stated: "If this four part gradation of the level of support existing between nations is not sufficient for this Invasion article, then it should be discussed here on the Talk page." Both Michael and Steven appear to feel that there is some gradation between a military alliance, and Countries supplying aid to Ukraine, though they are not stating what criteria to apply in order to asses that unspecified gradation. It would be useful to hear from editors about how to sketch out this unstated gradation between Military alliances and Countries supplying military supplies. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    Classification as a belligerent is an absolute, not a gradation. It is a category in international law, meaning a party engaged in a conflict. No alliances are engaged in this conflict. Two states are fully engaged: the aggressive invader and the defender. Additionally, we have added Belarus because it is guilty of the crime of aggression according to the UN’s definition, although it is not directly engaged in fighting nor has invaded Ukraine. Additionally, we should probably add Iran, at it has sent an Iranian military contingent into Ukraine to directly participate in the Russian terror bombing campaign, and has reportedly suffered casualties in Ukraine.
    Provision of matériel through trade or aid does not create a conflict where none exists, nor is it participating in an existing conflict. It does not place a party under the category of “belligerents.”
    As this is an ongoing conflict – subject to a lot of Russian disinformation about who is involved in it – we must not play fast and loose with these definitions.  —Michael Z. 15:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    Almost forgot: we have also added Russia’s fake DLNR “republics” under belligerents. IMO, they don’t belong there, because they have never been sovereign parties. Their military formations do belong under “Units involved” and “Strength” because they have always been under operational control of Russian officers in the Kremlin’s chain of command. —Michael Z. 15:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    Both the fake DLNR republics are apparently now non-existent as 'sovereign republics' after their annexation by Putin on 30 September; they do not appear to belong in the Infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
    Facts in law: the International Criminal Court in determining its jurisdiction found that there was an international armed conflict in Crimea by 26 February 2014, and in eastern Ukraine by 14 July 2014. It further found that there had been an armed conflict in eastern Ukraine since at least 30 April 2014 involving the DLNR, and is investigating the possibility that Russian control of these groups made it an international armed conflict from that earlier date ([2]:20¶88, 22¶94–95).  —Michael Z. 16:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    All of those points are relevant. As far as I count them so far, there are at least several transitional criteria which countries can apply in general in moving from merely providing military supplies to a country in a state of warfare, in moving towards countries that have the equivalent of a full military alliance of shared combat troops in the field. Up to this point in time, this Talk page has included discussion of the criteria of providing boots on the ground, of providing planes in the air, of providing safe conduct for military troops to attack another nation, of providing classroom military training to another nation's troops involved in combat. Actually, this Talk page has covered many of the criteria which fall between outright military alliance and the mere provision of military supplies and equipment. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    So if you accept that so far we are "between outright military alliance and the mere provision of military supplies" then how can we say there is a military alliance? Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    Pulling the various points made by Michael and others above into one coherent statement then: Russia and Belarus do have a military alliance (CSTO) and are therefore listed together in the Infobox as 'belligerents', while Ukraine at this moment has no military alliances and therefor is listed alone under 'belligerents' in the Infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    I am really unsure how you come to that conclusion as at least one person has explicitly stated that the fact they are in a military alliance has no relevance here. They are listed together as one attacked, from the others territory. Slatersteven (talk) 17:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    That completely misrepresents me. In fact, I wrote that the CSTO is not participating in this conflict. Belarus has committed aggression against Ukraine by allowing its territory to be used for Russian aggression (UNGA Res. 3314, Art. 3[f]).[3]
    This “transitional criteria” is your own WP:original research. Neither trading or donating military matériel, nor conducting joint military training, creates a state of armed conflict, nor does it make a state a participant in one. Nor does condemning aggression in a UNGA resolution.  —Michael Z. 20:10, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps a moot point given the way this discussion has already played out but I'm opposed as well. Simply listing belligerents and their supporters, by whatever definition we can hopefully arrive at a consensus on, is the best way to introduce readers to the article information. BogLogs (talk) 12:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Steven and Michael have been taking a strict position concerning the criteria being used to determine the designation of being a belligerent in the Invasion. At present, they are stating that it falls short of requiring a written military alliance, though the exact criteria are still not spelled out. Apparently, military advisors from other nations visiting in Ukraine or Russia must be in uniform, in sufficient numbers, and be answerable to an established chain of command to qualify as being 'belligerents'. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
No that is not what either of us has said, we have said that to be labeled in a military alliance there has to be a formal military alliance. This is about "Change Infobox sub-heading from 'Belligerents' to 'Military alliances'", not who should be included. Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
No, that’s not what I said. A belligerent is a state that is involved in an international armed conflict under international law: an attacker (aggressor) or defender. —Michael Z. 20:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
I've noted both of your oppositions and am planning to alter this question to wanting to deal with the large number of undue Talk page threads here dealing with NATO. Should the Infobox include a "NATO status" tab under the current "Status" tab towards the top of the current Infobox, to state something like: "NATO status: Ukraine's application for NATO membership was rejected by NATO in 2008; Russian foreign policy is generally antagonistic to NATO." It seems as if something like this might assist in dealing with too many undue threads on this Talk page asking about NATO. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
The data point “Ukraine is not a member of NATO” is out of place in an infobox about a conflict, and putting undue weight on this. Are we going to list all of the other alliances Ukraine doesn’t belong to too? Are we going to list Russia’s alliances? —Michael Z. 23:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Infobox: Ukraine supported by NATO (and others)

See RfC opened below at #RfC on Western support to Ukraine, which subsumes this discussion. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It just seems odd that the infobox lists "Ukraine" alone as a belligerent. NATO ought to be listed as a supporter as it is providing everything short of direct military intervention, i.e. billions upon billions of dollars of no-strings-attached military aid, both direct and indirect, providing intelligence, military training, etc. Not to mention Ukraine is now officially seeking NATO membership. One might even suggest listing every nation sending aid to Ukraine, as the amount is truly colossal. Many billions of dollars of direct monetary aid as well as military hardware, from a host of countries. What are others' thoughts on this edit?

Sources:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3173378/11-billion-in-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-announces-further-1-billion-in-military-support-to-ukraine#:~:text=The%20UK%20is%20leading%20the,other%20than%20the%20United%20States

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992 BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 20:33, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ at the top - this has been discussed before. — Czello 20:36, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Then lets having it again, because I can't find a comprehensive discussion in the near-infinitely long archives, and there seems to currently be considerable desire to denote more than nothing in the infobox with regard to Ukraine's foreign support. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 20:46, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The FAQ links to the discussion: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 7#RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?. Kleinpecan (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
I read the discussion. Sure, many countries are sending aid but the idea that NATO (let alone countries like the United States, United Kingdom, Poland, and the Baltics) aren't "supporting" belligerents at this point is, IMHO, completely ridiculous. So while listing individual countries is excessive, NATO is most certainly a supporting belligerent. 2600:6C40:467F:D7DA:B57A:FD94:1305:FFE5 (talk) 20:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
by definition "belligerent" means the military of said country is actively participating with troops/air attacks/artillery barrages et al - NATO is not a belligerent any more than the USA was in WW2 prior to the Pearl Harbor attack, despite the massive materiel supplied by the Americans to Britain and the USSR prior to Dec 7, 1941 ... 50.111.48.23 (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
It's good thing then that the user you're responding to was in no way in insinuating that NATO, The US, etc. should be listed as "belligerents". They were saying they should listed as supporting a belligerent, which they are, both from pretty much any sort of objective analysis, as well as by their own admission. Go to the NATO or US government official websites, and you will see all about how they officially support Ukraine, and are sending hundreds of billions in direct military aid. NATO and a plethora of its member nation are supporters of Ukraine. To deny this is just WP:ICANTHEARYOU at this point. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 07:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
If we have NATO as a co-belligerent, then this would imply that Russia is not only fighting against Ukraine but also against NATO and the West, which would further underline the Russian propaganda and that would be unacceptable. 2A02:810C:4CBF:E144:805A:D21B:A275:B046 (talk) 03:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Does it further Russian propaganda to say which countries are proving support to Ukraine's defense? And even if the answer is yes, if it's the truth as an encyclopedia shouldn't we state it as such? As Russians will continue to make baseless claims regardless why not accurately explain what is happening? BogLogs (talk) 04:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
The article has a major section about support: 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Foreign involvement. It would further Russian propaganda if we listed states under “Belligerents” in the infobox that are not. —Michael Z. 19:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
What a ridiculous argument. Russian propaganda should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is included in a Wikipedia article. NATO is quite plainly offering enormous military support to Ukraine. Your suggestion of not including NATO in the infobox because of perceived "Russian propaganda" is a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 08:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Buzzlightyear99 here, it would be good to at the very least discuss changes to the infobox to include countries which support Ukraine. Since the previous discussion the amount of support has vastly increased and has been shown to be decisive in Ukraine's defense and counter offensives. BogLogs (talk) 04:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

NATO is not involved in Ukraine. The war is outside of its jurisdiction; it is not what NATO is for and not how it is set up to operate. For NATO to make any comment on Ukraine would require all its member countries to agree but no statement has been made and you will not find a citation to that effect in order to include that idea in the article. It is a very important distinction to make between the individual actions of various countries that happen to be members of NATO and NATO deciding to take action. If and when NATO gets involved, this will be abundantly clear and will be a gamechanger. Let us hope that they never have to. Ex nihil (talk) 21:31, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
That is a good point. It is true that there has been no formal comment by NATO announcing joint action (certainly not anything along the lines of sending formal armies, thankfully!). That said if that were to happen NATO or any countries sending forces to fight would be belligerents and we would likely have to change the article title to WWW3 if we still have the ability to do so. The argument here at least for me is that given the amount of war materiel support given by NATO, or at the very least the NATO countries that are clearly sourced as providing large sums of that aid, should be listed as supporters of Ukraine's defense. BogLogs (talk) 23:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
No, because giving aid for a proxy war isn't the same as declaring war and being in a war. Andre🚐 03:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, and you are indeed correct giving aid is not the same thing as declaring war. In fact I think no war has been declared since the end of WW2. But this kind of materiel support deserves some kind of mention. This is the most similar situation I could find with support drop downs in the info box etc etc. Soviet–Afghan War. I think it would be a good model for this page but I welcome other ideas and points of discussion. BogLogs (talk) 03:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
One of the main sections is “Foreign involvement,” right there in the table of contents. Very easy to find for anyone seeking it. For someone who wants the top of the article to prominently advertise NATO as “belligerent,” this would be creating a WP:NPOV problem.
Incidentally, there have been well over a couple hundred conflicts since WWII, but just over a dozen declared. See Declaration of war#Declared wars since 1945. —Michael Z. 19:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
The total in that list is 17 declarations of war, which seems notable. The key phase "conflicts since WWII..." should say something about Pearl Harbor which set a standard for 'acts of infamy' for subsequent generations. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
It says something about the Nuremberg trials, which were history’s first trial, convictions, and hangings for the crime of aggression. A declaration of war is legally a confession to the crime. —Michael Z. 19:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)f
The Wikipedia article for casus belli states that there are three exceptions as follows: "In the post–World War II era, the UN Charter prohibits signatory countries from engaging in war except: 1) as a means of defending themselves—or an ally where treaty obligations require it—against aggression; 2) unless the UN as a body has given prior approval to the operation. The UN also reserves the right to ask member nations to intervene against non-signatory countries that embark on wars of aggression." It would be nice if someone would update these other articles from time to time. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Well I stand corrected on declarations of war among quite a few states (Can always learn something new everyday!). A number of the following points given seem quite unrelated to the discussion at hand. The question still stands and will probably be asked here again and again again, Is Ukraine's material support by other countries of such an impact that it deserves to be mentioned in the infobox similar to that of other articles. As the war, and the international politics surrounding the war, is so deeply effected by this aid I would certainly think that it should be listed clearly in the infobox. BogLogs (talk) 23:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
No one is saying it is. However giving hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid, decisively turning the conflict in Ukraine's favor, should probably be mentioned in the infobox. You don't need to have boots on ground to be a supporter of a belligerent, that is the entire point of a "Supported by" section. The Vietnam War article is a perfect example of this. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 02:48, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Literally in the first line of the first source I provided (the official NATO website): "...NATO and Allies continue to provide Ukraine with unprecedented levels of support, helping to uphold its fundamental right to self-defence." Ukraine is supported by NATO, if the previous statement plus the hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid was not enough to convince you. It does not get any more straightforward than this. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 08:28, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The United States alone has allocated aid worth $65 billion, over ten times Ukraine's pre-war defense budget and on par with the entire annual military spending of Russia. This includes economic assistance, massive amounts of arms, training, supply lines just outside of Ukraine's borders, and intelligence sharing from American aircraft conducting surveillance. To not list them (among other countries) under a "supported by" line, when every other article on this wiki (e.g. Iran-Iraq War) gives that distinction to any country that so much as sent a truck full of grenades to a belligerent, is absolutely ridiculous.--Nihlus1 (talk) 04:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
  • The primary question is whether this (an extensive list) should or should not go in the infobox, noting that there is a section of the article dealing with foreign aid of various types, where prose can capture the nuance of the nature of the aid that cannot be done in an infobox. There have been two RfCs on this already, closed with no consensus. Consensus is WP:NOTAVOTE but determined by strength of argument made against objective criteria (WP:P&G). Given that the RfCs are relatively recent, the question to be asked is "what in P&G has changed such that we are likely to arrive at a consensus different from the status quo?" The answer is, nothing. Continuing to discuss this is just a WP:BIKESHED. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
    The infobox is one of the first things readers will see and effects the overall picture of the rest of the article (WP:BIKESHED was an interesting read but I'm not sure it applies here). If the question really simply boils down to is the article improved by including the countries that clearly support Ukraine in the infobox or not these other articles may serve as a good comparison: Korean War, Crimean War, Yom Kippur War, Russian Civil War. Would those articles be improved by removing supporting information from their infoboxs? Of course the reader could go deeper in the articles to find more but clearly the supporting countries listed in the infoboxs are well justified. A similar feature in this article's infobox, listing supporting countries, would be a big improvement to help readers understand the situation as they begin to dive into the article. BogLogs (talk) 10:07, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
    Everything you have said has been said and responded to before. My question was: "what in P&G has changed such that we are likely to arrive at a consensus different from the status quo?" A WP:BIKESHED is a time sink. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity and a time sink. How is this not a case of flogging the same dead horse and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT? Cinderella157 (talk) 09:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
    Ok, I'll do my best to respond your question as you've laid it out here "what in P&G has changed so that we are likely to arrive at a consensus different from the status quo?". Nothing at least as far as I know.
    However I hope you will at least consider the following. First from the Bikeshed page you have mention: This page in a nutshell: Don't get hung up on trifling details. The infobox at the top of the page is not a trifling detail as it informs the reader of the basics of the situation and what to expect from the rest of the article. If you feel it is a time sink to discuss this I would encourage you to consider why this question comes up so often. Also apologies if this is taking any considerable time from you as that really is not my intention.
    Secondly, it's only flogging the same dead horse if there is no potential for change. Editors on this page are, I would hope, more than capable of having a reasonable discussion and coming to some consensus. Furthermore consensus can change over time and as was previously mentioned by BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 "The last RfC was 4 months ago, in a currently occurring armed conflict which is only 7 months old." Since that discussion Kiev has gone on two major counter offensives aided with a great deal of outside materiel support.
    Lastly, and I'll make this one as concise as possible, using procedure to avoid an honest discussion is a cop out. However these P&G will provide the most basic argument for having further discussion about this matter: WP:CCC, WP:IGNORE, and WP:5P5.
    Rather then spending time trying to close discussion why not at least try to engage with it to improve the article? BogLogs (talk) 10:26, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
    I am in firm agreement with User:BogLogs. The entire purpose of a "Supported by" section is to list non-combatants who support belligerents in an armed conflict. Should the Vietnam War article have its infobox's "Support by" section wiped? It includes nations that offered only diplomatic support too, not material. And after answering the previous question, ask yourself if said article would be better for it. Your citation of WP:BIKESHED just seems like a convenient excuse to shut down discussion. The last RfC was 4 months ago, in a currently occurring armed conflict which is only 7 months old. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I agree with Cindarella157. Andre🚐 02:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
  • +1 for Cinderella. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:31, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
    You are welcome to share who, or perhaps which idea, you support but it would further the discussion more if you provided a short reason or two for that support. This actually isn't an RfC yet (though I suspect it may become one again in the future). In either case giving your point of view and reasons furthers the work of this talk page to providing the best possible article on a subject we clearly all care deeply about. BogLogs (talk) 04:46, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
NATO should be shown as a supporter. I disagree with @Cinderella157. The primary question here is not whether an extensive list should or should not go into the infobox, it is whether a single entry should, in a "Supported by" byline. Whether other entities than NATO are also listed does not affect the argument of whether or not NATO should be, so let's address that.
  • Significance. By listing NATO under Ukraine as "Supported by" it would convey a critical piece of information currently lacking in the infobox, which as is fails to capture the situation at a glance. If Belarus supporting Russia is significant enough to include in the infobox, then how is NATO supporting Ukraine not significant enough to include, especially when there is a detialed section of the article expounding on it? Compare the support Russia received from Belarus with the support Ukraine received from NATO. Neither the significance nor factual accuracy of NATO support for Ukraine is under reasonable dispute, thus it should be included.
  • Infobox Size. This wouldn't increase the size of the infobox, as the opposing column is already longer, so the argument not to include it as a space consideration (ie, because it is extensive list as @Cinderella157 said) is a failed argument. All the member countries need not be listed when one entity can. Nuance need not be captured here, as that isn't the point of the infobox and the rest of the article can do just that. Whether other non-NATO states should be listed ought to be separately argued for or against as @BUZZLIGHTYEAR99's original point was about the inclusion of NATO.
  • NATO would not be shown as a belligerent. Other concerns were raised in the archived RfC and alluded to here about listing NATO as a belligerent, but, as @BogLogs pointed out, that's the whole reason for a "Supported by" byline listing NATO — to show their involvement without listing them as a belligerent. Since NATO support for Ukraine has been extensively documented, and is even openly declared on their own webpage, in their own words, as @BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 cited, this seems much more reasonable than their absence from the infobox.
  • Consistency. Similar situations in other articles (the Soviet–Afghan War was a great example from @BogLogs) don't seem to spark this level of pushback, and feature even more complicated infoboxes that are still concise and easy to understand. I haven't seen a coherent objection to this that doesn't seem to want to change other infoboxes to win an argument over this particular one.
  • Neutrality. The role of NATO in this conflict has been and remains a controversial subject, but NATO support for Ukraine is an absolutely undisputable fact. Leaving NATO out of the infobox can give a reader that only checks that portion of the page an at-a-glance impression that NATO has no role in this conflict, that (in the infobox's current form) the only parties involved are Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Such an impression would thus violate Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and the infobox should be updated to better reflect the spirit of neutrality. @Jarlaxll Expresses a related concern in his point.
Unless there are any coherent arguments against inclusion, I suggest we move forward with it and update the infobox. Consensus is reached by force of argument. Holding up a consensus without supplying a valid counterargument is not a valid argument. Citing things like Wikipedia:BIKESHED to shut down debate, or saying something has already been discussed to shut down debate, is not a valid argument either. Wikipedia:Consensus Does not require unanimity, which in this case may not be possible due to the charged nature of the subject. We should be going by force of argument alone, and in here and in the old RfC it looks like the inclusion side has won. entropyandvodka (talk) 00:47, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Having missing elements in infobox (as per other infoboxes) is misinformation. Very important, since some noticed that 70% of users see the infobox first and most check just that. Failing to have a comprehensive list of (at least the most important) "supported by" calls for infobox removal. Either complete it or remove it. So i support having a "supported by" section. Notice that now with intelligence HIMARS etc, US satellites guide the missiles/ drones and POSSIBLY American hands pull the triggers/ point targets occasionally and have access and planning to actions/ strategy, not to mention US mercenaries being hired directly by US companies in the US with US funds and that the ground of other NATO memebers is being accessed by ukranian military (even if unofficially) for the purposes of this war. Therefore US and UK classify ALMOST as beliggerents. Finally as previously mentioned, this changed dramatically the course of war. Therefore i suggest to either remove the infobox or have it provide complete information (at least US and UK and Poland as the main supporters).Jarlaxll (talk) 00:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2022

Please add a wikilink to the phrase "deconfliction line" in the first sentence of the third paragraph of section 3.5 'Missile attacks and air war'. Currently, this page is an orphan, so I'm trying to add wikilinks to it. Thank you! Patr2016 (talk) 01:51, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done. —Biscuit-in-Chief :-) (ˈ[d̥͡soːg̊ʰ] – [ˈg̊ʰɒ̹nd̥͡sɹ̠ɪb̥s]) 02:13, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 October 2022

The word 'New York' is written above '22 march' next to 'Yenakiieve' on the main map of the article. Please remove it HistoryResearcher101 (talk) 02:29, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done--no reason given for edit. HistoryResearcher101, I take it you're unfamiliar with the town of New York, Ukraine? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:45, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought somebody was trolling and vandalized it. HistoryResearcher101 (talk) 07:01, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

2022 Valdai speech of Vladimir Putin

I just created an article for the 2022 Valdai speech of Vladimir Putin. Any help would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 05:24, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Is there anything special about the speech that warrants it having its own article? If not a sentence on his wikipedia page would probably suffice. BogLogs (talk) 10:29, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
In this speech Putin strongly reaffirmed again that the Ukrainian state has no right to exist, but he was telling this all the time, hence probably nothing so significant. My very best wishes (talk) 04:03, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Doesnt rate an article. Incorporate into War in Ukraine article.HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:52, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Reopening "Support" debate

See RfC opened above at #RfC on Western support to Ukraine. Please contribute there. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:21, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ukraine and Russia have both seen various countries support there respective causes, firstly the Ukrainian side has seen support from the EU, NATO, Columbia, Pakistan, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia and New Zealand as evidence by the Wikipedia article List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War. Furthermore the Russian side has seen support from it's allies, namely Iran and North Korea; the sources are linked below:

North Korea: 1) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/2/north-korea-covertly-shipping-artillery-shells-to-russia-us-says 2) https://www.axios.com/2022/11/02/north-korea-russia-artillery-shells-ukraine-war 3) https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/02/politics/north-korea-russia-ammunition/index.html 4) https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/white-house-nkorea-covertly-shipping-artillery-russia-92539247 5) https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-white-house-accuses-north-korea-of-shipping-artillery-to-russia-12736638 6) https://nypost.com/2022/11/02/north-korea-sends-russia-artillery-shells-for-ukraine-war-wh/ 7) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11382055/North-Korea-covertly-supplying-shells-Russia-support-Ukraine-invasion-White-House-says.html

Iran: 1) https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/01/politics/iran-missiles-russia/index.html 2) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/31/analysis-irans-new-weapons-and-its-involvement-in-ukraine 3) https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/26/iran-ukraine-russia-war-drones-missiles-military-advisors-middle-east-nuclear/ 4) https://www.foxnews.com/world/irans-assistance-russian-war-effort-make-country-enemy-combatant 5) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63329266

I saw this topic of conversation was closed, but I think we should reopen it, as with all wars or conflicts I have ever seen on Wikipedia, all factions or sides of the conflict are listed, I am surprised this one doesn't seem to be following the same outline, it's not simply a Russia and it's proxies versus Ukraine conflict, both sides have there support and one has it's main support listed. We now have sources as evidence for all parties to the conflict. Let's reconsider expanding the faction listings. 65.211.16.54 (talk) 04:41, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article Title

Year 2022 should be removed to make it more sensible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A03:2880:31FF:A:0:0:FACE:B00C (talk) 15:59, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Or we create a new article for 2023. Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
The invasion was in 2022, and distinguishes it from the invasion of 2014. The fact that the occupation will continue to 2023 is irrelevant. Might change to "Russian invasion and occupation of Ukraine (2022 to present)", but not necessary IMO. — kwami (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Might cause a little trouble for history students in a few centuries, with questions like how long was the hundred years war or the war of 1812, but presently it should be fine with the name as it is now. BogLogs (talk) 10:25, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree with @Kwamikagami the title reflects when the invasion occurred, and any confusion is quickly mitigated by the first sentences of the lead. This is consistent with general Wikipedia nomenclature. -- Lenny Marks (talk) 19:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I am in agreement. The current title implies there was no violation of Ukraine's borders or conflict prior to 2022. Something along the lines of "2022 escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian War" seems more appropriate. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 18:17, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

The annexation of Donetsk and Luhansk

I suggest adding a link to the annexation of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson page to not leave readers confused about what happened on the 30 of September. Patriciogetsongettingridofhiswiki (talk) 23:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Annexed. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Russian regional volunteer formations

The article covers Russian mobilization, but does not seem to mention the volunteer units that were being raised earlier by local Russian regions. Anybody have sources for this?  —Michael Z. 20:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Where did you read this? Slatersteven (talk) 10:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Personally, I never heard of such a thing even though I am closely following the developments. If there are no sources provided about this, then it doesn't belong to the article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 01:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Okay, quick search:
I was hoping someone would have the ready knowledge to write a quick overview.  —Michael Z. 05:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Oops, totally forgot this is the 3rd Army Corps (Russia).  —Michael Z. 05:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Split air war coverage?

Currently, the section dedicated to the air war is longish (21 kB), but missing the forest for the trees a bit: it has a lot of 'On the Ides of Smarch, Y said Z', and blow-by-blow reports of single engagements. The former are liable to be obsoleted as better analysis can be done later with more information, and the latter is valuable in the right context if it's done systematically instead of haphazardly, but maybe the top-level article for the invasion isn't the right place to put it.

Specifically, RUSI published a really interesting report on the 7th on the air war to date, which I think would be a great resource to draw on as a secondary source.

I think it would make sense to split the air war section into its own article so that this article can have a much more summarised description, and then the new article can have as much detail and information as needed. Polyphemus Goode (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Agreement with above editor and article is now split with link added to new main article. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Spillover into Poland

"Some missiles crossed into Poland, killing 2 people in Przewodów, which led to top leaders of Ukraine to hold an emergency meeting." I'm pretty sure it's the top officials of Poland holding an emergency meeting, not Ukraine. Also, the source is missing, as it is currently reusing a source about the annexation of Crimea. Underfell Flowey (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

True. Sources also state that Poland's top leaders have called an emergency meeting. Some are Bloomberg, and AP. Sarrail (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 November 2022

The word "likely" gives two readable meanings in a sentence.

Change: "The invasion has likely resulted in tens of thousands of deaths on both sides and caused Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II" to: "The invasion has likely resulted in tens of thousands of deaths on both sides and has caused Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II" Ghost of Kiev (talk) 22:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 22:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Iran should be added as “Supporting Russia”

Not only because of the various mainstream news reports of Russian usage of Iranian suicide drones, but the additional reports of Russia purchasing Iranian ballistic missiles as well as the Institute for the Study of War reporting on Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps members present in occupied Ukraine training Russia on how to use the drones mentioned earlier. The arms sales, training, and diplomatic support (“The Ukraine crisis is rooted in NATO's provocations.”, Iranian Foreign Minister, largely echoing Russian messaging) justify the addition of Iran to the “supporting Russia” list in my opinion. DBA78 (talk) 02:53, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I would agree. Teammm talk
email 05:50, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Support: Been reports by British and American Intelligence of Iranian troops in Crimea to help Russia with Kamikaze drones. Pikachu3408 (talk) 12:23, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Absolutely not. If NATO and its member countries, which have given hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid to Ukraine, is not listed as "Supporting Ukraine", then Iran definitely should not for giving Russia some missiles and drones. To do so would be an egregious double standard and violation of WP:NPOV. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 06:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Iran sold them weapons, they didn't "give them." Just to be correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.48.23 (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. Adding Iran would be a serious double standard.
We should maintain a high bar for addition (provision of troops on the ground, acknowledged and in public) for "Supported by".
A lower bar, if applied, should be applied evenly!
That would mean Iran, Syria and China for the invading forces, and USA, UK, Poland, France, Germany, Canada, see: https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ XVI Chancer (talk) 08:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
By this standard, provision of troops on the ground, acknowledged and in public, Belarus would have to be removed. BogLogs (talk) 09:07, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Belarus is here because of the military access it provided to russia. But yes, Iran and several Western countries should be listed. Super Ψ Dro 13:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
From a neutral point of view, the Iranians should absolutely count as supporting the war just from the drone training alone. It counts as support when NATO had troops in Ukraine (and now currently have Ukrainian troops on NATO soil for training) on training missions while showing how to use Western arms and suppling. It's a double standard for Iran not to count when they are doing the same thing: deploying troops on a training mission and supplying Russia with arms. It is not violating WP:NPOV. DBA78 (talk) 20:23, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Why not just add both then? Have NATO supporting Ukraine and Iran supporting Russia. I mean, they are being supported by them, it's not like it's a lie. SusImposter49 (talk) 21:35, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Agreed, adding the countries that provide considerable materiel aid support and/or training should be added to the infobox as supporting their respective parties. BogLogs (talk) 21:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Boots on the ground: “Iran Sends Drone Trainers to Crimea to Aid Russian Military,” NYT. And they are designated terrorist boots of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps.  —Michael Z. 18:28, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I totally agree: boots on the ground. According to publications, the military personnel of Iran directly guided at least some of the drones from Crimea (an occupied Ukrainian territory). Importantly, these guys remained the military personnel of Iran while performing their duties in another country, just like Soviet "advisors" in old times. If USA were to provide F-16 manned by US Army pilots, that would justify inclusion of USA to the box. However, if they just were to provide F-16 for Ukrainian pilots, then presumably "no". My very best wishes (talk) 03:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I’m not sure how “designated terrorist” is in any way relevant to this question. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 18:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I think that the time has come to add all those countries who are providing weapons under "support". According to the archives, LouisAragon proposed it back in February 2022[6] but the proposal clearly suffered a degree of railroading by those who had no sensible policy based reasoning to oppose the proposal. The only known allegation at this moment is that Iran supplied drones to Russia. But right now it does not deserves to be on infobox unless the aforementioned proposal has been accepted. Segaton (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    I am in agreement. My opposition to Iran added being to "Supporting Russia" is contingent only on the on the plethora of western nations providing copious amounts of aid to Ukraine, and any other relevant party, being added as well. I suspect there will be some sort of RfC regarding this soon. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 14:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
No, let's stick to the subject of this thread. My very best wishes (talk) 16:41, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I am. I only support adding Iran to the "Supported by" section of the infobox if the basis by which it is is enforced consistently. I.e., if Iran is to be added, so too should all the states sending hundreds of billions of dollars in weapons and military hardware to Ukraine. To say you are against the equal implementation of article criteria is essentially an admission of bad faith. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that equipment and training for said equipment is quite the same "boots on the ground" discussed in previous requests for this type of change. It's one thing to send a drone and the guys who can teach you to control it, and another entirely to send battalions of soldiers in to fight under orders of the supporting government. King keudo (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
There was a large distinction in Vietnam between the USA first sending special forces advisors to provide advice to them, as opposed to when USA later started sending combat troops to do battle in Vietnam. Does this distinction apply to this discussion of Russia's invasion; is the support advisory or is it participation in combat? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm for using that type of distinction when it comes to personnel support. Generally advisors and training staff are labelled as non-combatants, correct? If so, these trainers for using the drones would count not as "boots on the ground". King keudo (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
No, special forces would be boots on the ground. According to publications, these Iranians personnel were not just advisors, but actually guided the drones. And even if they did only training on the occupied Ukrainian territory (such as Crimea), they would still qualify. If they did such training in Iran, then probably "no", that would be just training. That's why NATO countries do not do training on the Ukrainian territory. My very best wishes (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
If supplying weapons as well as military personal to conduct on the ground training and possibility also combat missions does not qualify as "supporting", I'm not sure what does. Iran should certainly be added. JLKlein12 (talk) 18:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. People seem to be conflating supporting with participating. NATO and Iran are supporting, even if they may not be participating in a legal sense. entropyandvodka (talk) 18:53, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
  • If Iran is to be added due to selling weapons to Russia, then states which give weapons to Ukraine, e.g. the US, Germany, and a plethora of other states, should absolutely be added as supporting Ukraine. If they are not, then I oppose this. If they are, then I would support adding Iran to a list of supporters. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 18:55, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • This is not about selling weapons, but about Iranian military servicemen taking part in hostilities at the Ukrainian territory. My very best wishes (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    I don’t think the presence of military advisors helping with drone operations makes them any more of a supporter in the war than the US or any other country is. If there’s no consensus for listing the US (and others) as a supporter of Ukraine, then it should be the same for Iran and Russia. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 21:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Well, according to report by Institute for the Study of War, [7], "the Iranian instructors directly control the launch of drones on civilian targets in Ukraine, including in Mykolaiv and Odesa oblasts. The IRGC is notably the primary operator of Iran‘s drone inventory, so these Iranian instructors are likely IRGC or IRGC-affiliated personnel." My very best wishes (talk) 00:39, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I would agree adding them as "supporting Russia", especially considering the revelations of Iranian troops being stationed in Crimea to support the attacks on Ukraine with their drones. BananasAreViolet (talk) 20:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. [1] There are sources like this, there are even high definition pictures of the drones flying overhead in Ukraine. You could cross reference it yourselves with Hesa shahed 136. Unlike Belarus, I would specify Iran (Arms support) in the supported by tab. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 06:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I completely agree with this addition, following the recent reports in several reliable sources regarding Iranian troops stationed in occupied crimea. I believe there should be a footnote however, barring future acknowledgement from either Iran or Russia of the postings, that the information is claimed by the US. Pax Brittanica (talk) 21:37, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

*Support* Iran should be added akin to Belarus due to their servicemen being in Crimea to support Russian attacks on Ukraine in addition to the arms sales. If it were solely arms sales then I wouldn't be in support of including them in the infobox. 71.13.0.142 (talk) 21:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
*Support* Iran has active military personnel in Crimea. --Aaron106 (talk) 23:35, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Just my two cents, but per this CBS article, the U.S says Iran is now "directly engaged on the ground" (with trainers and tech support for the Shaheds) in the fighting. If Belarus which has not sent any of its forces as yet to fight in Ukraine is listed in the infobox, I'd say Iran belongs there too. I mean, direct combat support goes a step above basing/overfly agreements and weapon donations. 2603:6000:A640:BB00:E5E9:3C66:7779:48FE (talk) 00:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Just like Russia says NATO is a belligerent in this war. Segaton (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Russia says a lot of things. Russia says Ukrainians are a nation created by a centuries-old international conspiracy against Russia, and their elected president is a Nazi Jew controlled by foreign powers. So please check the sources you are citing before putting your name on a comment.  —Michael Z. 14:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Iranian IRGC in Ukraine

There are a number of little subthreads on this and I’m not sure if everyone’s on the same page, so creating a sub-section to take a straw poll.

Facts (from memory): the USA and Ukraine say that a small group of Iranian trainers are in Crimea to provide additional training, and appear to be participating in the operation of Iranian drones that are being used to attack Ukrainian infrastructure and cities.

Based on this, I would include Iran in the “Supporters” subhead under “Belligerents” in the infobox, with supporting text in the article. Support or Oppose? —Michael Z. 23:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose unless America, France, Germany etc. are included for their vast military materiel aid as supporters on the Ukraine side. BogLogs (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
It’s not about material aid. It’s about sending military to participate in the conflict in the war zone. None of those states have done that.  —Michael Z. 04:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
By the way, France and Germany have traded military matériel to Russia too.[8][9]  —Michael Z. 04:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Interesting, How many billions of dollars of military aid did they provide for Russia since the war started? Even back in May the US agreed to send 40 billion dollars alone to support Kiev [24]
Of what you seem to be suggesting is some great amount of aid, did France and Germany justify the aid as being used to defend Russia from an invasion force?
Sending military units to fight directly can be debated over whether it makes those nations either supporters or outright belligerents. Aiding countries with vast military aid, training, etc. to turn the tide of war makes them supporters. BogLogs (talk) 09:40, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Condemning the invasion in a UNGA resolution makes 143 states supporters. The infobox doesn’t have a “Supporters” field or heading, and its docs don’t have a place for supporters.
Neither $1 or $1 trillion of military trade or aid, either in peacetime or during a conflict, makes a state a participant in the conflict, that is, a legal belligerent.
Sending units to fight is not debated: it definitely makes a state a legal belligerent.  —Michael Z. 19:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Then why have a separate list for supporters at all and not simply list them all as belligerents? Or as has been done on conflict page after page on wikipedia(Korean War, Crimean War, Yom Kippur War, Russian Civil War as a few examples) why not list those states whose support are having a materiel outcome on the war? Also I'll just throw it out in terms of money a dollar vrs a billion, Germany donated war materiel to an allied nation that participated in WWII, can you guess which one?, I doubt that would make us question which side they were on.
Also I'm happy to discuss this further with you but wasn't your goal here to make this area a straw poll rather than a new discussion? BogLogs (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Belarus is an unusual case because it is guilty of aggression but not a direct participant. The template doesn’t have a list for supporters, and I don’t believe there should normally be one added. Some of those examples are extreme and confusing: in Russian Civil War, I have no idea what the difference between “supported by” and the second row is, so I have to read the text anyway. But the more specific descriptors like “medical support” are better, because they mean something (“support” could be a type of participation, a strictly commercial relationship, or pure rhetoric).
Yes, straw poll, but it doesn’t hurt to use it to shake out our facts, opinions, and consensus in the meantime.  —Michael Z. 21:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
@BogLogs How is that relevant, if those accusations are true, it means Iranians are literally taking part in the fighting. 2A02:810D:A9BF:E9F6:8CAC:C44B:3582:C38B (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. The participation of Iran is hugely important for a number of reasons, including the "nuclear deal" of Iran with other countries becoming the history. One should wonder what could force Iran to unilaterally nullify the nuclear deal. Probably a direct transfer of nuclear technologies if not even ready-to-use nuclear weapons from Russia. My very best wishes (talk) 00:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: Given that US intelligence alleges that Iran presently has boots on the ground in Crimea providing direct military participation in the form of drone operators, this seems like a fair distinction to the NATO/EU/AUKUS training and materiel support that Ukraine receives, as these supporting parties are not directly participating in the conflict on the ground. If need be, I'd be fine with a "(alleged)" written beside Iran in parentheses. --benlisquareT•C•E 02:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment We really need to have a set definition for what sorts of activity merits "supported by" inclusion in the infobox, applied consistently on both sides. Iran's "boots on the ground", allegedly even controlling the drones directly, would certainly merit inclusion if the definition requires boots on the ground. But this would preclude Belarusian inclusion. If one further expands the standard of inclusion to include providing one's territory as staging grounds for military logistics, then Belarus can remain, but arguably so should Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania (and NATO, let's be honest).
Right now, there really isn't a consistent standard for what actually merits inclusion and I think that needs to be properly hashed out before we can agree on what to do with he latest news regarding Iran. --haha169 (talk) 07:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree with this, a deeper discussion or another RfC may be warranted to decide soon what merits inclusion. BogLogs (talk) 09:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I also agree with this. A consistent definition of what constitutes support would clear up a lot of problems going forward. That definition should adhere to NPOV, and should reflect gradients of participation in line with the meanings of the terms "belligerent" and "supported by" such that a reader need not be aware of any special criteria. entropyandvodka (talk) 20:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
To be honest, that is nonsense. Ukraine is not staging forces in those states and invading Russia across their borders. Ukraine is not retreating its forces into their territories to escape the battlefield. Ukraine is not firing cruise missiles from their territory into Russia. —Michael Z. 18:41, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I think that has been debated on this talk already (see archives) and resulted in the following current consensus for inclusion to the infobox:
  1. Providing weapons to a belligerent (sales or free of charge) - no.
  2. Providing military bases and airfields to attack another country - yes.
The only question in this case if "boots on the ground" should be counted as involvement in the hostilities, and the answer seem to be clearly "yes". My very best wishes (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
And what does "boots on the ground" mean? Because all these Irianain are "advisors", well I seem to recall reading we have advisors on the ground. Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Which means we should focus on Iran (the subject of this thread) rather than on general criteria for the inclusion. Speaking about people, there are different categories. Some individuals are enrolled to the International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine, frequently against advice of their governments. This does not mean the involvement of the corresponding countries (where these citizens belong) as belligerents. By the same criterion, Syria should not be included to the infobox just because their individual citizens have been voluntarily enrolled to Russian army. A very different category would be people who remain in the active military service of their country and were sent by their state to take part in the hostilities. Those are "boots on the ground". For example, if there were US "instructors" operating on the ground in Ukraine to direct Ukrainian drones, that would be an involvement. Of course one could object saying that what difference does it make if they provide an intelligence to Ukrainians and operate from Pentagon? That would be a reasonable argument (and perhaps the inclusion of USA would be justifiable), but it is not so clear cut and possibly needs a separate discussion. My very best wishes (talk) 16:54, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the need for a separate discussion about this, and about a NPOV-compliant criteria defining a supporter. Ascertaining intelligence about troop movements and giving that information to a belligerent such that they can destroy or kill enemy units is playing a supporting role in a conflict. entropyandvodka (talk) 20:25, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
If your second bullet is correct then we definitely need to have a new rfc. The criteria of providing military logistics to invade another country, to me at least, seems specifically designed to include allies of Russia and exclude allies of Ukraine, because only Russia and her allies are "invading another country", as Ukraine and her allies are fighting a defensive war. It is not a balanced criteria. --haha169 (talk) 16:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I said "attack", not "invade". Yes, it does not matter if this is an offensive or defensive side. Consider an imaginary example of Poland helping Ukraine to attack Belarus from the territory of Poland. That would make Poland a belligerent. I am not saying it would be good/bad, only that it would justify the inclusion to the infobox.My very best wishes (talk) 17:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
It’s not “logistics” (although Belarus does also provide transport and weapons). It’s legally the international crime of aggression when Belarus allows Russian forces to fire missiles into Ukraine from its territory and invade Ukraine across its borders.  —Michael Z. 18:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
True. Moreover, Russia and Belarus are officially a Union State, and they have joint military forces. My very best wishes (talk) 19:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: I agree with the above support. Alleged is the correct description for IRGC being a belligerent, as while there is no available proof, there are reputable accusations. As for my opinion addressing "But the West gives Ukraine weapons, shouldn't they be belligerents too?": There is a vast difference between giving Ukraine weapons (such as Western nations are doing) and Ukraine being the sole operator of the weapons in the scope of combat, and giving russia weapons (such as iran is doing) and iran launching of the weapons in the same scope of combat. Matthewberns (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
    While that may be true, almost every single article about a war with the support infoboxes uses them to describe support that includes weapons shipments, and sometimes even humanitarian aid. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 18:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
    As an ongoing conflict, the definition of legal belligerent is important. Those other articles are playing fast and loose with the labels, ignoring what the template docs say (belligerents = “the parties participating in the conflict”), and cramming in as much stuff as they can, contrary to MOS:IB (“the less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose”). —Michael Z. 19:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is a significant difference between providing special teaching advisors and providing actual soldiers firing rifles; this historically was an important transition in Vietnam where USA was providing military advisors in one phase, while only later did USA then start sending combat troops for actual fighting. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
    Sending a military unit to the soil of an invaded country to help operate equipment that intentionally attacks its civilian infrastructure and kills and maims civilians in their homes is participating in the conflict. It should rightly be directly under the “Belligerents” heading, but I am proposing demoting it to “supporters” because they deny being there and supposedly aren’t directly controlling the attacks.  —Michael Z. 19:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes, that would be the case if these guys were just doing training somewhere in Iran. However, based on sources, they took part in the actual warfare at the Ukrainian territory. An "instructor" sitting in Crimea: "You hit this button NOW!", then someone hits the button, and a Ukrainian family somewhere is dead. My very best wishes (talk)
Support: I wouldn't even put it below support but directly as a party to war. Under international law, a country is part to the war, when they have troops on the ground in the conflict zone that at least support them.
This was also stated by researcher for international law at Bonn University Philipp Dürr on Twitter as a reply to a journalist who said "Iran is a direct party to the war": "Correct. That is why the sanctions against Iran must now be tightened enormously (as if the regime's behaviour in recent weeks had not been enough...). The JCPOA - that will no longer be of any use."
If NATO had stationed troops on the territory of Ukraine, who trained Ukrainians or provide air-defence, NATO would be a party to the war. So is Iran now. Belarus never had troops on the territory of Ukraine, so they are just support Pettylein (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Belarus is legally guilty of aggression, but not legally a participant in the armed conflict.  —Michael Z. 19:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Support: I believe Western countries supplying weapons should count as supported as well, but the news has reported that Iran has gone further than just providing weapons, training, or intelligence. The Hill says, “We can confirm that Russia’s military personnel that are based in Crimea have been piloting Iranian UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles], using them to conduct strikes across Ukraine, including strikes against Kyiv in just recent days. We assess that Iranian military personnel on the ground in Crimea assisted Russia in these operations.” (The Hill) Troops directly aiding in attacks should count as supporting Russia. That's a step towards more direct support that Western countries have not done in Ukraine. --Pithon314 (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Do you understand that thousands of fighters from western countries have been fighting in Ukraine? Even if this claim from Hill was correct, we are yet to know if those Iranians are playing a voluntarily role or they were officially deployed by the Iranian government. Segaton (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
You’re making that up. Sources say they are Iranian military of the IRGC, not that they are volunteers that joined Russian armed forces or mercenaries. —Michael Z. 03:11, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Support. Because Iran has played such a significant, on-the-ground role in this conflict involving training and in some cases operating the drones in this conflict, the IRGC should be considered a supporter. DBA78 (talk) 02:15, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Weird logic. There are many CIA handlers in kiev handling intel [2] and now "weapon inspectors" from USA [3] .
If Iran is to be added then USA should also be added by that logic :) RandomPotato123 (talk) 13:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
As said on the discussion below, USA, UK, EU, etc may also be added into this article as supporting ukraine, but if we are going to add them, then we might as well add Iran and North Korea in (although NK should have a "(alleged)" note close to it, as it is still not confirmed wheter or not its true that they sold weapons to Russia), SnoopyBird (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
Supporr: per the earlier subthread mess, there are now plenty of reliable sources discussing Iranian troops directly stationed in occupied parts of Ukraine both training and according to the US in some cases directly operating weapons.

I think the argument regarding Iranian weapon supplies is diving off topic, and I think the Iranian operations in Crimea should be the main focus of the inclusion. Pax Brittanica (talk) 22:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  • Comment This thread is ostensibly about the infobox and the notion of supported by. It tends to lose sight of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and it appears to me that many are trying to write the article in the infobox. An infobox is a supplement to the lead, which is itself a summary of the article. Furthermore, an infobox cannot capture nuance. Belarus appears in the infobox because the actions of the country cross a clear line (objective criteria) of committing an act of aggression. Futhermore, this is clearly established by sources. This is the bar that has been set. Iran, providing material and training does not cross this threshold. While Crimea is disputed territory in the greater scheme of things, it was nonetheless held by Russia preinvasion. It is certainly not a clear line that an Iranian presence in Crimea constitutes "boots on the ground" and an act of aggression. I note that the IWS source is circumspect in its report stating: Russian forces may have brought Iranian ... [emphasis added] and describes the Iranians as "training". The information is also attributed to the National Resistance Center of Ukraine. The AP News source is also equivocal in its reporting. The body of our article would state (citing the IWS source): In October, Iranian instructors, likely members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, were reportedly in Ukraine teaching Russian forces and directly controlling the launch of drones against civilian targets. This statement is made in a Wiki voice (as a matter of fact), when a review of the source would clearly indicate this is not appropriate. To alledge that Iran reaches the same threshold as Belarus is a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim that would require substantially better sourcing. We should be conservative in such a case. It is better to omit what cannot be confirmed than to report as fact that which may well be false. The corollary of this is: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
    The point about sourcing is correct, although you omit that the USA and Ukraine have been generally reliable.
    But the “preinvasion” idea snuck in there is pure nonsense corresponding to a rather extreme pro-Kremlin POV. Like the UN has already declared the Russian occupation of part of Ukraine and its new borders legitimate, or something.  —Michael Z. 14:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
    I did not sneak anything in. What I said was: While Crimea is disputed territory in the greater scheme of things, it was nonetheless held by Russia preinvasion. In no way does the statement legitimise Russia's annexation of Crimea pre-invasion nor the subsequent occupations. The response to this is a WP:STRAWMAN argument. It is not up to us to take the reports to date and determine that Iran is an aggressor state similar to Belarus or even a direct belligerent. That would be WP:SYNTH. It is also something that many commenting here do not appear to recognise. Futhermore, to categorise Iran as such in the infobox is a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim in a Wiki voice. Regardless of whether the US or Ukraine sources are generally reliable, they are not WP:EXCEPTIONAL in respect to this particular question. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:49, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose The AP source that presents Iran as 'directly engaged' on the ground also brings forth this specific quote: "“The information we have is that the Iranians have put trainers and tech support in Crimea, but it’s the Russians who are doing the piloting,” Kirby said". This does not lend support to the claim that the Iranian troops themselves are actually launching the strikes, and piloting the drones to their targets. This is a difference of teaching how to use the weapons and supervising field tests and combat deployment; not the same as the Iranian soldiers piloting and targeting the weapons themselves. King keudo (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
    It would be much the same if foreign soldiers in Ukraine only drove the tanks to firing positions, only loaded the shells into the artillery guns, or only laid the crosshairs on the target, but didn’t pull any triggers.
    A foreign military unit that illegally entered Ukraine is making an offensive weapon work against Ukrainian civilian targets. The ISW terms it “to assist Russian forces in conducting drone attacks” and “providing military support to Russian forces in Ukraine.”[10] Iranian soldiers “‘directly engaged on the ground’” in Ukraine are directly engaged in the war. —Michael Z. 20:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
    I'm not quite convinced that this particular role belongs in this list. The slippery slope of 'only', as you've kindly pointed out, doesn't concern me as we have yet to see a war where armies and troops were used to do everything except pull the trigger, so I think that claim will fail verifiability. Advising still isn't the same as participating, as far as I can tell. I'm still not seeing tons of sources describing the advisors from Tehran as combat belligerents or such. King keudo (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
    There is no restriction due to “only.”
    Russia invaded and thus is involved in the international armed conflict. So every Russian soldier in Ukraine, even one who only sat in a truck waiting to unload crates of field rations, is a soldier involved in the war.
    Likewise, Iran sent its military to Ukraine to participate in the armed conflict. Any IRGC soldier that was ordered to Ukraine to make the drones work is engaged in the conflict. —Michael Z. 16:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
    Not to say that 'only' is restricting anything; however you were the one relying on the only emphasis to make a point about something that has...never happened in recorded warfare. If I'm wrong about that, please point it out to me. Until such point, I think it's still fair to say that only doing everything for a war except pulling the trigger has never happened, so I fail to see why that argument has anything to do with the fact that teaching isn't the same as doing. In how many conflicts has the US and NATO allies, or the U.N. sent advisors to a conflict zone, and were never recorded as 'engaged in in the conflict' until actual soldiers, with guns, or tanks, or planes, were sent?
    There's a pretty significant difference, too, between the Russian soldier in Ukraine, driving a truck of rations and shooting at Ukrainians on Russian orders to capture territory, and the Iranian soldiers from the Geek Squad who was sent as part of the 'paid installation' package to set up the wi-fi routers and show the Russian soldiers how to turn on the computer and launch the 'flight simulator' game. If the comparison seems ridiculous, it is on purpose - you're wanting to compare the Russians actively killing other soldiers, torturing civilians, and forcibly migrating Ukrainian citizens into Russia to the guys who - in all likelihood - gave a power-point presentation, set up some actual flight simulator terminals for training, and then either went home, or stuck around to be the IT guy. Again, I'm not convinced that this equates to 'directly engaged in the conflict' as you want to define it. Based on your description, we should include go ahead and include any and every country that even made a statement about the conflict on one side or another if the bar is so low.
    Regardless; I think until RS specifically state that the Iranians sent are considered to be combatants actively supporting Russia through their combat actions, we can't describe them as such, and thus can't add Iran in the way people are arguing for. King keudo (talk) 18:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
    That is a reasonable position. But that likely requires judgment.
    USA’s John Kirby says “Iran is right now on the ground, involved, engaged in the war in Ukraine,” and I don’t think anyone in the media or in this discussion doubting the US statements.
    CNN: “a significant escalation in Iran’s involvement in the war.”[11]
    That they are in the war zone is underlined by reports of them being killed in strikes.[12]  —Michael Z. 23:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
    I certainly don't doubt that Iranians are there, absolutely. However, again, there's nothing indicating that any of them are doing more than control training and troubleshooting. Your own source, the Times of Israel, says "It’s unclear whether the Iranians are operating the drones themselves, the Tuesday report said." Also, all reports I can find of this report of 10 Iranians being killed cite a single source, KAN, or the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. There's no additional corroboration of this report, and no details. The source of the information apparently only shared that 10 Iranians died in two separate strikes. No other RS has picked this up, and it's been several days since it was first reported.
    A "significant escalation" doesn't mean they have troops there killing people; and let's be honest, that's not what CNN reported in that article. "The presence of Iranian personnel in occupied Ukrainian territory would mark a significant escalation in Iran’s involvement in the war" (emphasis mine) - clearly meaning even CNN isn't willing to come out and say that Iran is actively engaged in war in Ukraine.
    The Times of Israel source also includes this, very specific descriptor of Iranians sent regarding the drones:
    "Russia initially sent its own personnel to Iran to learn how to use the drones, but the weapons were plagued by problems after they arrived in Russian territory. Iran then sent its trainers to Crimea to address the malfunctions, the report said."
    Which is clearly offering the stance that the Iranians sent are nothing more than IT guys and mechanics.
    I'm looking at these sources, a few of which I'm not 100% sure about the reliability of overall, but they do all provide the same information.
    CNN
    Times of Israel
    Jerusalem Post
    Iran International
    (Sorry for the wall of text)King keudo (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
    You’re wilfully ignoring the main point that Iran sent military into Ukraine to enable offensive warfare, using misdirection by labelling its soldiers conducting military tasks as “IT guys and mechanics.” The straw man is that only infantrymen, apparently, are part of the armed conflict, and everyone else sent illegally into Ukraine is only decoration.
    Incidentally, literal “IT guys” are directly committing mass war crimes.[13] And I wonder how long the invasion would have lasted if the Russians kept in barracks all their truck drivers, supply clerks, fuel jockeys, radio and electronics operators, and mechanics.
    Sending a military unit to serve with an invasion force is participating in an international armed conflict on the aggressor’s side.  —Michael Z. 18:08, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
    Bit late to this response, apologies if it's a bit moot at this point;
    I'm not willfully ignoring anything. Iran sent people to train on the use of a weapon, and to provide troubleshooting for said weapon. You seem overly set on deciding that identifying the personnel sent as what they have been confirmed to be (literal IT guys) mean I have to agree to label "only infantrymen, apparently, are part of the armed conflict, and everyone else sent illegally into Ukraine is only decoration." which is not only twisting the logic, but assigning to me an opinion or stance I have never taken or suggested.
    Your "Incidentally, literal “IT guys” are directly committing mass war crimes.[8]" doesn't even mention Iran, and is talking about cruise missiles. Where does it mention the Iranian solders "directly committing mass war crimes"? What, exactly, does this link have to do with the personnel sent to Iran? What does it have to do with the kamikaze drones? What does it have to do with arguing if the personnel sent to Crimea are engaging in combat or not?
    And, finally, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China? Because it's about as relevant to that question, too. King keudo (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
    @King keudo, you stated “the Iranians sent are nothing more than IT guys and mechanics,” implying this was significant to the discussion. I inferred you meant that they are not soldiers and therefore the Iranian military unit sent to do things in the invasion of Ukraine doesn’t count as military involvement. I gave a counterexample where it’s undeniable that “IT guys” are integrally involved in armed conflict. Since you’re telling me I misinterpreted, please explain comment’s significance.  —Michael Z. 15:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. Support including Western countries that have supplied military equipment to Ukraine too, and maybe also Syria. Super Ψ Dro 22:18, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Strongly support. This is because of a MAJOR and FUNDAMENTAL difference between providing training and military equipment to Ukraine than Iranian forces actually commanding drones to wipe out enemy forces. Raymond Kestis (talk) 01:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Raymond Kestis, your source that this is the case? Cinderella157 (talk) 04:13, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Source 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events#2022_October_20
Source 2: https://thehill.com/policy/international/3697453-white-house-says-iranian-troops-on-the-ground-in-crimea-aiding-russian-drone-strikes/ (Taken from Source 1) Raymond Kestis (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Raymond Kestis, I will agree with you that there is a major and fundamental difference between providing training and arms and actually piloting a drone strike. However, your source (the Hill) attributes to Kirby:We assess that Iranian military personnel on the ground in Crimea assisted Russia in these operations and they are providing tech support while the Russians pilot the UAVs for attacks. Other reports of the same press release also specifically use the word trainingtrainers in respect to the Iranians. Your source does not state that Iranians are piloting drone strikes against Ukranians. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC)Cinderella157 (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
The source does not say “training.” It says “aiding” and “providing tech support.” Other sources make it clear that training was conducted in Iran, but the Russians were unable to operate the drones well enough without the presence of Iranian military present in Ukraine, and apparently now in Belarus too. They’re not training. They’re making the weapons work. —Michael Z. 13:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
I am in error to the extent that the AP source specifically uses "trainers" and not "training". The correction, however, makes no significant difference to what I said. The AP article also attributes to Kirby: but it’s the Russians who are doing the piloting. This goes directly to the rationale being applied by Raymond Kestis and that their criteria for support is not being met. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Raymond Kestis’s criterion is arbitrary.
An Iranian unit is part of the invasion of Ukraine. Iran’s soldiers have illegally entered Ukraine and are taking part in attacking Ukrainian infrastructure and civilians. Iran’s military involvement is more direct than that of Belarus.  —Michael Z. 23:23, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Mzajac, you are expression a conclusion (opinion) based on some reports in sources (your evidence) and your reading of international law (your criteria). That is fine except that it is WP:SYNTH and for WP to state in a WP voice that the actions of Iran rise to or exceed those of Belarus is a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. I am not defending Iran. I have no issue with prose that report Iran's "involvement", where such claims can be attributed to the source. However, to include Iran in the infobox is to make a claim in a WP voice. When an authoritative exceptional source makes such an assertion, then we can add Iran. Such a source might be a statement by the UN secretary general or similar. However, I am not seeing that such a source exists. If you believe that such a source exists, I am happy to consider it. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:31, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
“Boots on the ground” and “didn’t pull the trigger” or whatever have been mentioned by several others. It is completely fair to seek the consensus here that Iran has passed the threshold for direct military participation in this war by sending its soldiers illegally into Ukrainian territory to participate in the Russian offensive drone and missile campaign against Ukrainian civilian infrastructure.  —Michael Z. 14:37, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the assessment, that putting Iranian personnel into Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia in direct support of Russia's war, makes Iran a warfaring party. I also agree with the previous post, that this falls under WP:EXCEPTIONAL. So in my opinion, the question is whether there are sufficient sources for this claim. Lklundin (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Support: It has already been claimed that IRGC members are "on the western front," which is quite vague but could range anything from yes, directing drone attacks to participating in active combat. Other supportive arguments do address the difference between sending arms and directing attacks, and contrary to what some of the opposing users have claimed, have set a clear-cut and fair threshold. It is also worth noting that we should (1) establish consistent formatting for this discussion (whether to use bullet points or not) and (2) make this an RfC. Firestar464 (talk) 09:12, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Oppose per Cinderella157. Pabsoluterince (talk) 13:26, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Support: i think Iran should be included as supporting Russia, as it is pretty obvious by now, per above, that they are indeed not only providing Russia with equipment, but are also training Russian troops on how to use this equipment. SnoopyBird (talk) 21:10, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Comment: In addition, i also support including North Korea, although with a (alleged) thing, as its not confirmed wheter or not they are supporting Russia. SnoopyBird (talk) 21:14, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose: There isnt enough proof that Iran have sent instructors and that they are THE ONES operating the drones. If you still want to add Iran regardless of vague sources then US/NATO must be included as well in support bracket. It would be double standards to not include them with how much support in military equipment and training Ukraine got since February and even before that. Nightwolf87 (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
Comment: there is another discussion here about adding countries supporting Ukraine, IMO i think that we should add both Iran (and possibly North Korea) as supporting Russia and maybe EU and NATO as supporting Ukraine. SnoopyBird (talk) 23:46, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose: It would probably be the single largest violation of WP:NPOV in Wikipedia history if Iran was listed as "supporting" Russia for giving it drones, while the US & NATO aren't listed as supporters, despite giving Ukraine hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid and equipment, as well as aiding by providing Ukrainians with military training and intelligence. It's laughable that this is even being considered before listing NATO, US, UK, Germany, Poland, etc. as supporters of Ukraine. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 00:06, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Comment: there is another discussion here about including these countries as supporting Ukraine, in addition, Iran indeed supports Russia, not only on sending drones, missiles, etc but also on training them on how to use them, so this is, indeed, support. SnoopyBird (talk) 17:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per my comments elsewhere in this section. There is a lot of opinion being given to support the inclusion but I am not seeing any WP:EXCEPTIONAL sources being cited that would clearly state that the actions of Iran rise to the same level of Belarus and permit us to make a statement in a Wiki voice by placing Iran in the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose unless the US and other Western countries that are military supporting Ukraine with the stated purpose of combating Russia are also added to the infobox for the sake of proper neutral balancing. In addition, so far, the claim of IRGC involvement has solely come from Ukrainian or pro-Ukrainian (US) sources (unreliable) and not verified by third-party sources. EkoGraf (talk) 21:59, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/20/mass-drones-are-a-worry-for-the-future-of-warfare
  2. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/25/us/politics/commandos-russia-ukraine.html
  3. ^ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-military-inspectors-ukraine-keep-track-weapons-equipment-rcna54891

adding u.s/nato as ukraine suppliers

Discussion fork. Please contribute at #RfC on Western support to Ukraine. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

self explanatory, i mean sending billions of dollars in aid and himars & javelins on top of that im sure means ukraine is supported by the west.

2603:9001:2B09:9A93:F7:B09E:BC67:D5FB (talk) 16:36, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

as the article plainly states — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.169.37.99 (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Adding Polish casualties to the casualties table

Thoughts on adding Polish civilian casualties (of which there were two) to the casualties table? How would this best be done—in a separate row? Compusolus (talk) 11:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Wait for the NATO investigation to issue a report, first. 104.169.37.99 (talk) 16:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Good question. There are probably also numerous third-country casualties who were caught by the Russian invasion. Apparently a Zambian student recruited or press-ganged by the Russians. These could all be mentioned in prose next to the table.  —Michael Z. 02:20, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Sure—a number of individuals from other countries have been killed, whilst fighting for Ukraine etc. Was the Zambian student you mentioned a casualty within Russia or Ukraine or in another country?
The Polish casualties were in their own country and killed as a direct result of the war. Thus perhaps they could be added in a new row titled something like 'Casualties outside the fighting zone'? Compusolus (talk) 06:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

More participation needed in anti-war activist AfD

The AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dominika Lasota has been relisted twice, with the hope of getting more participation by experienced editors. Boud (talk) 19:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure

We do not see the 'new strategy'. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-new-phase-of-war-russian-threatens-ukraines-utilities-and-infrastructure The destruction of infrastructure is mentioned above in the Iran thread, so the subject is known, but not mentioned in the article. The Russians use also missiles. Xx236 (talk) 08:00, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a mention of Putin's attempt to destroy Ukraine's electric grid if I'm following your concern here. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Need input at Torture in Ukraine

Main articles: Legality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Universal jurisdiction investigations of war crimes in Ukraine, Claims of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, and Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
Further information: International Criminal Court investigation in Ukraine, Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022), and Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine

The linked page Torture in Ukraine desperately needs more eyes. Adoring nanny (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Hungary

Why is there nothing in the article about this:

--DC 66.234.79.76 (talk) 06:47, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Lots of nations have not aided Ukraine. Slatersteven (talk) 10:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Hungary is notable in its opposition to its EU and NATO allies. It has refused to provide military aid, refused to allow transit of military aid, and is now threatening to scuttle the EU’s plans for providing reconstruction aid. Sources have noted that the Hungarian government’s attitude is contrary to its own citizens’, and connected it to Orbán’s sympathies for Putin and to his authoritarian actions (the latest interference is connected to EU relief funds that have been withheld due to the dismantling of democratic institutions in Hungary).
Bears mention in the section on “Foreign involvement,” and certainly since the role of NATO is discussed quite a lot.  —Michael Z. 17:51, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Because of the amount of references available on Hungary and the points raised by Michael Z at least a brief mention seems reasonable. TylerBurden (talk) 09:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 November 2022

"Wagner Group mercenaries and Chechen forces reportedly made several attempts to assassinate Volodymyr Zelenskyy. "

there is no need to blame all "chechen forces" for this. There are 3 chechen battalions fighting on the side of ukraine against russia. So this terminology is wrong if the article is to stay neutral. The appropriate wording would be Kadyrovite forces or russian national guard (141st Special Motorized Regiment). Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Any reliable sources on this? BogLogs (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Dzhokhar Dudayev Battalion Sheikh Mansur Battalion Separate Special Purpose Battalion
couple of links: https://www.npr.org/2022/09/05/1119703328/chechens-ukraine-russia, https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-chechens-common-enemy-russia/32136592.html
Chechen forces would be wrong terminology as there are chechen forces on both sides of the conflict. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 16:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. TylerBurden (talk) 09:30, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Current article does not seem to cover relevant balance of power (international relations) issues in geopolitics

The article in its current format does not appear to cover relevant balance of power (international relations) issues as related to the invasion. For example,

  • Ukraine is not able to conduct any sustained military action across its borders into Russia itself largely because this would invoke Russia to call on its military alliances for its several signatory nations to join the war against Ukraine.
  • Biden has stated that boots on the ground from the USA shall never occur because it would signal the conditions for the start of a WW III scenario.
  • NATO cannot at any time send boots on the ground or planes in the air to fight on Ukraine soil since this would immediately open Poland to direct military attack from Russia, as well as any other NATO allied nations with which Russia has a shared geographical border.

The current article does not discuss the balance of power issues in geoplitics as they are related to the invasion; should such a discussion be added to the current article? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any RS about the general balance of power in this war? Your #1 and #3 ("largely because" and "since") sounds like WP:OR and incorrect. No one will join Russia except Belarus (whose army is now controlled from Moscow). And no, the individual NATO countries like US, UK or possibly even Poland can send boots on the ground or planes and evict Russian forces from Ukraine, probably in a matter of days or weeks. Why they did not is a good question, but this needs to be sourced. My very best wishes (talk) 16:11, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
The Russian security council has now changed the reason to conquer Ukraine from “denazification” to “de-satanization.” Looking forward to references that relate this to balance of power issues in geopolitics. —Michael Z. 19:23, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
This is no joke. Putin is deadly serious. Well explained here. It cites one of Russian ideologists of this war said: “Armageddon and the Apocalypse are unfolding before our eyes.” It also cites German Chancellor Olaf Scholz: "They consider their war against Ukraine to be part of a larger crusade, a crusade against liberal democracy." Why do you think Putin started this war? Crusade it is. Why do you think they collaborate so well with Iran? Because they fight against Great Satan. If you know Russian, please check this. My very best wishes (talk) 03:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
My very best wishes:I've added some of the RS below; there are many more available. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Where would such a discussion take place? As part of the background, in its own section, or somewhere else? It's an interesting proposal. entropyandvodka | talk 20:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Entropyandvodka: My thoughts were to include it either in the Nuclear threats section, or, to add a new short section either before or after the existing Nuclear threats section. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Based on your bullet points, you may be more referring to issues of international law than balance of power (ie, USA doesn't want boots on the ground because it would legally make it a party to the conflict, which would escalate things, etc). Balance of power tends to be more theoretical, so I'm not sure how it could (or if it should) be explicitly included in the article, though I'd agree that balance of power and international law both significantly affect the conflict. entropyandvodka | talk 21:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
@Entropyandvodka and GiM:: It is meant as a blance-of-powers issue, and the bullet points were just a small sample of the reliable sources available. Russia has been sensitive to the balance of powers issues several times going back even to the Olympics when they planned the timing of the invasion. If you have ideas for the best material to include in an edit to cover balance of powers in international relations related to this maybe you could comment here. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:46, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I don't disagree, balance of power thinking is a major factor in Russian decision making vis-à-vis the invasion, and the broader Ukraine conflict, I'm just not sure exactly how to work it in. A good start could be some discussion about it in the background to the conflict, perhaps between the second and third paragraphs. The article in its current form skips from the mid 90s to 2014. In terms of balance of power, the events of 2008 were very important, particularly the Bucharest summit in April, Bush announcing intentions to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, and the Russian response. Among others, you've got Putin saying Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO would be a direct threat to Russia [14], which is pretty straightforward great power politics thinking. It could also be worth mentioning efforts of the EU to bring Ukraine into it, the attempt at a trade deal in 2013 that Russia saw as the West bringing Ukraine into their sphere of influence[15].
It would also be appropriate to present some of the balance of power/realist views in the third paragraph of the background section, or a separate fourth, following the mentions of Russian imperialism and irredentism. Other scholars reject this interpretation of Russia's actions, and view the conflict in terms of balance of power and realism[16][17][18]. entropyandvodka | talk 21:02, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to see both of the edits you are describing here as constructive if they can be supported by RS. If you have a 2-3 sentence versions for both of the edits which you described for those two paragraph placements, then I'll try to support you in adding them to the article; or, if you prefer, you can add these edit suggestions here for further possible discussion. Your ideas for doing this seems sufficiently well thought out to try to move them forward. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:00, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
The article is edit locked, so we can get them started here. First edit, starting a new paragraph after the first ending in "...would not expand eastward, although this is disputed":
At the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Ukraine sought to join NATO, a bid supported by the United States and strongly opposed by Russia on strategic grounds,[19] with Putin calling it a direct threat to Russia.[20][21] France and Germany also opposed Ukraine's NATO admittance, with the French Prime Minister Francois Fillon arguing it would upset the balance of power between Russia and Europe.[22] Although Ukraine was denied membership, NATO pledged their future admittance, with Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, the Secretary General of NATO, saying it was "not a matter of whether, but when."[23] In response, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia would do everything it could to prevent the two countries, run by pro-Western governments, from becoming NATO members, and Russian General Yuri Baluyevsky warned of military action if Ukraine were to become a NATO state.[24]
I'll work up the second edit when I have some more time. entropyandvodka | talk 19:50, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I've shortened it a bit to avoid length issues and added it. Let me know when the second part is ready. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:05, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
As it's currently written, the second edit would probably be best before or after the final sentence of the second paragraph:
Other scholars rejected Russian imperialism and irredentism as explanations of the conflict. American political scientist John Mearsheimer argued that root cause was NATO enlargement,[25] and that Russia's principal aim was to prevent Ukraine from becoming a Western bulwark on the Russian border.[26] Stephen Walt argued that Russia was motivated by fear of the West, not territorial ambition, and that the crisis began as a result of the United States and EU trying to shift Ukraine into the Western sphere of influence.[27] entropyandvodka | talk 21:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Sounds like that would give the section a much more pro Russian tilt and might have issues with NPOV. Are we sure that's how we want the article to read?BogLogs (talk) 23:19, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
It seems if the article is going to mention interpretations of Russia's actions as motivated by imperial ambitions and irredentism, it ought to also mention that those interpretations are disputed and why, while never asserting either view to be the case in Wiki voice. Only presenting interpretations favorable to one side crosses into bias, in my opinion, and gives an incomplete sense of the background of the conflict.
Just to be extra clear, though, the reason for including these points isn't to compensate for possible bias. It is to cite relevant analysis of the geopolitical background and causes of the conflict. entropyandvodka | talk 23:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
BogLogs appears to be asking for more neutral sources. Both of your sources Mearshiemer and Walt are offensive neorealists who are not particularly friendly even with the defensive neorealists. Is it possible to reformulate your edit, maybe along the theme of Russian hopes for a land bridge from Crimea to its mainland since the 2014 annexation? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Mearsheimer’s view is borderline WP:FRINGE. We can find more articles criticizing the realist’s views as un-realistic than he has written.
If we present these “realist” arguments, then we should also present concrete criticism, like the fact that Russia has stripped most of its defences adjacent to NATO member states, including in Kaliningrad oblast and along the Finnish and Estonian borders to escalate its war in Ukraine, indicating that balance of power is not driving its actions (sorry I don’t have a source at hand, but it was widely mentioned in news and opinion).
Here’s an alternate balance-of-power take that may deserve to be included: Timothy Snyder on Europe’s provocative imbalance of power, and the importance of the outcome to global balance of power:[28]
At the same time don’t you think that everyone continuously upgrading their armies will result in an even more dangerous situation where the next conflict will be more disastrous?
No. That of course can happen, but the European Union is so far from that. The problem with the European Union is that it has no army. When they had the UK, they were the largest economy in the world. And they have no armed forces. Honestly, that’s provocative. Because the Russian army is not this big huge powerful thing. Before they started this war, the Russians had 50,000-60,000 people who could really fight. What is preventing Europe from having a European strike force of, let’s say, 60,000 people? And then, in February 2022, the European strike force goes to Zaporizhzhia or Kharkiv oblasts and says we are just having exercises with the Ukrainian army. Why not? That’s all that would have taken to stop this war. You can be so weak that it’s provocative.
But what about the nukes? Everyone’s afraid of nuclear war, not conventional war.
But they weren’t afraid of it when the conventional war started. When the conventional war started, all the Germans and all the Americans started to talk about nuclear war because that was a way to make it more about us. If you don’t want to be afraid of nuclear war, then make conventional war impossible. I take your point ‒ there’s such a thing as an arms race, there’s such a thing as too much, but the Europeans were so weak it became provocative. And it makes no sense for them to be so weak. They shouldn’t be militaristic, they shouldn’t want to go back to conquer their old colonies, but they should be able to fight a war if they really have to and not rely on the US. Because we won’t always be there or we’ll make bad decisions, there could be a wrong president or we’ll be on the wrong side. The larger questions about how to prevent the war are about deeper things. It’s about values, it’s about economics. But we can’t overlook the basic military balance.
And the enormous effects on American security:[29]
In defeating Russia’s armed forces and exposing Russia’s weakness, the Ukrainians have both made a larger war in Europe far less likely, and gotten China’s cat’s paw under control. 6/
The Ukrainians have reduced the possibility of Chinese aggression through Russia, and made direct Chinese aggression less likely. They have done all of this just by defending themselves, without making any move against China. 7/
 —Michael Z. 17:36, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Timothy Snyder is currently at Yale University and is apparently a liberal democrat in orientation who has been critical of the Trump administration. I'm not sure where he stands on the spectrum of geopolitical hawks and geopolitical doves. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
He’s a historian.  —Michael Z. 16:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause Walt is a defensive neorealist, for whatever it's worth. I'd be curious to see more discussion or some sources about the land bridge aspect you mentioned. What exactly is the neutrality issue we're worried about here? It seems noteworthy that two of the biggest realist voices (among others) rejected the notion that Russia is motivated by imperialist ambitions. Here is an article that discusses the causal role of NATO more broadly, and outlines disagreement on the issue. In addition to Mearsheimer, it mentions this piece by Fiona Hill. Note this passage:
"At the time, I was the national intelligence officer for Russia and Eurasia, part of a team briefing Mr. Bush. We warned him that Mr. Putin would view steps to bring Ukraine and Georgia closer to NATO as a provocative move that would likely provoke pre-emptive Russian military action. But ultimately, our warnings weren’t heeded.
Within four months, in August 2008, Russia invaded Georgia. Ukraine got Russia’s message loud and clear. It backpedaled on NATO membership for the next several years. But in 2014, Ukraine wanted to sign an association agreement with the European Union, thinking this might be a safer route to the West. Moscow struck again, accusing Ukraine of seeking a back door to NATO, annexing Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula and starting an ongoing proxy war in Ukraine’s southeastern Donbas region."
The New Yorker article also mentioned this article by Bernie Sanders (hardly an imperialist sympathizer), who acknowledges Ukraine as a strategic concern of Russia:
"One of the precipitating factors of this crisis, at least from Russia’s perspective, is the prospect of an enhanced security relationship between Ukraine and the United States and western Europe, including what Russia sees as the threat of Ukraine joining the North Atlantic Treaty Alliance (Nato), a military alliance originally created in 1949 to confront the Soviet Union."
"To put it simply, even if Russia was not ruled by a corrupt authoritarian leader like Vladimir Putin, Russia, like the United States, would still have an interest in the security policies of its neighbors. Does anyone really believe that the United States would not have something to say if, for example, Mexico was to form a military alliance with a US adversary?"
It would be sufficient for me for the article to, at a minimum, mention that not everyone agrees with this imperialism assessment and throw in one or more of the sources I provided. On the issue of neutrality and Mearsheimer's points sounding "pro-Russian", this article made some good points on the matter. Again, I don't think the Wikipedia page should endorse a view that the conflict "is the West's fault", but it also shouldn't imply that it can be explained purely by imperialism and irredentism (which it currently does by exclusively mentioning those) or give undue balance to that view, especially when there's a strong case that there were other, if not entirely different, causal factors. entropyandvodka | talk 22:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
It sounds as if the 2-3 sentence edit being envisioned should include some mention of Timothy Snyder, Fiona Hill, and Stephen Walt. Is it possible to formulate a 2-3 sentence edit that covers all three? (Incidentally, the Wikipedia article had errors in the lead and Infobox for Stephen Walt which I corrected, since Walt is explicitly a co-author of Mearsheimer on the issue of offensive neorealism, and not defensive neorealism.) ErnestKrause (talk) 18:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Quick aside on Mearsheimer and Walt: Offensive realism is Mearsheimer's theory, put forward in his book The Tragedy of Great Power Politics. Walt and Mearsheimer have co-authored, but on a different book. Here's an article [30] identifying Walt as a defensive realist, though I also found him here[31] saying the following (hence my disagreement with your earlier remarks, though you were right to list him in his infobox simply as a neorealist):
"I’m not a strict “structural” realist like my mentor Kenneth Waltz or my occasional co-author John Mearsheimer because I place greater weight on geography, military doctrines, and perceived intentions than they do. I am sometimes labelled a “defensive realist” based on some of my early writings, but that label doesn’t really capture my worldview completely."
As for the edit, what exactly by Snyder warrants mention? His argument that Ukraine was provocatively weak? Unless he's got another piece disputing the historicity of Russian leadership considering Ukraine joining NATO to be a threat, I'm not sure it's relevant or even contrary to the realist observations. Moreover, we've already got him in the paragraph making the imperialist characterization, which is what the realists were explicitly disputing as causal to the conflict (Mearsheimer points out that characterizations of Putin as an imperialist motivated by conquest only emerged after the annexation of Crimea, meanwhile you've got Fiona Hill and her colleagues telling Bush in 2008 that Ukraine joining NATO would likely lead to pre-emptive military action by Russia). It seems odd for the article to lean selectively on the view of Snyder while disregarding the contrary views of notable experts in the field, especially when Snyder's characterization is already in there, and when the relevant aspects of the realist views contrary to his have been corroborated (ie, by Fiona Hill, Carl Bildt - see below) and reliably sourced.
Here's a New York Times article[32] that also mentions Fiona Hill, and has this passage of note, where you've got Carl Bildt recognizing the events of the Bucharest summit as causally connected to Russian aggression in Georgia and Ukraine:
But NATO’s “cardinal sin,” as Mr. Daalder put it, was the undefined promise made to Ukraine and Georgia in Bucharest in April 2008, the result of a late-night compromise reached by former President George W. Bush when other NATO members, like Germany and France, rejected his proposal to offer the two countries a concrete and immediate road map to membership.
The Bucharest compromise was the worst of both worlds,” said Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister and foreign minister. “It created expectations that were not fulfilled and fears that are grossly exaggerated. It was short-term expediency with long-term consequences that we have seen since then” — in Georgia, which lost a quick and nasty war to Russia four months later in 2008, and in the Russian effort to destabilize and even reassert control over Ukraine.
This article[33] may be better to cite than citing Mearsheimer directly. Here's an article [34] by Walt making basically the same points as Mearsheimer, if he can't be used, but it makes more sense to me to mention Mearsheimer than Walt since he much more famously made the realist case on this issue, plus there's a paragraph dedicated to his argument in the New Yorker article I linked.
With regards to including Fiona Hill, do you mean we should do so in the section toward the end of the second paragraph or somewhere in the first paragraph? entropyandvodka | talk 02:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
That’s not what Snyder wrote.  —Michael Z. 02:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Which part? When I mentioned his argument above (proposed as an alternate balance of power take), I was referring to his statement "You can be so weak that it’s provocative." When referring to the imperialism bit, I'm referring to the background section of this Wikipedia article, which states "American historian Timothy Snyder described Putin's ideas as imperialism" when describing Putin's essay. entropyandvodka | talk 04:23, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Mzajac, could you add the Snyder quote which is most in agreement with your reading of him? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
I will try to do that in the next day or so.  —Michael Z. 19:41, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Snyder spoke directly to the question of the balance of power, saying the EU was provocatively weak. Please reread my excerpt above, and I suggest reading the entire interview to understand its context.
He also addresses the effect that Ukraine is having on the global balance of power from the US POV, regarding Russia and China.  —Michael Z. 19:33, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Regarding imperialism, he does refer to today’s Russia as the remnant of the Russian and Soviet empires, and to Putin and Russia’s plentiful rhetoric of imperialism.
He also speaks history in terms of empires, of nation-states as exceptional in the context of longer history and not the rule, of the many failures of nation-states, and of the EU as the only example of a replacement for empires (sorry I can’t remember at the moment which article[s] this is from). This would seem to be very relevant in terms of balance of power.  —Michael Z. 19:40, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough. His argument is that the EU was provocatively weak (and presumably Ukraine as well, as it was Ukraine, not the EU, that was invaded) and had they not been it may have prevented the war (assuming the EU was doing joint exercises with Ukraine or had a presence there to match combat-capable Russian forces). Is that the point you're suggesting to include? Also, can you describe the context in which it would appear? My suggested edit was intended to follow the sentences mentioning imperialism and irredentism (but before the final sentence) near the end of the background section.
On the imperialism bit, Snyder also says in that same interview, "I think it’s Ukraine’s job to say that Russia’s an empire and it’s an imperial war, that we are defending ourselves against Russian colonialism." Here's a rundown of a talk [35] he gave, in which he argues that the war is a genocide and motivated by imperialism. The article also says:
...[Snyder] emphasized that this war is a fascist action on the part of Russia, and that Putin is using “atrocity talk” as a cover for white nationalism and violence.
They've also got Snyder comparing Putin to Hitler. If you don't see any NPOV issues in citing Snyder's imperialist characterization in the background section of the article (which implies the information is relevant or causal to the conflict), without the article reiterating his claim in Wiki voice, what is your argument against my suggested edit, or perhaps a slightly shortened or reworked version? Note that I'd be open to reworking it to include mention of Fiona Hill, who establishes that her and Bush's advisers were making this same argument to Bush before the 2008 Bucharest summit. You've also got Putin threatening[36] openly to Bush during their talks in 2008:
...Ukraine would “cease to exist as a state” if it joined NATO. In that case, Putin hinted, Russia would encourage secession of the Crimea and eastern regions of Ukraine.
You may consider Mearsheimer's argument that the crisis is the fault of the West as fringe, but I'm not suggesting the article make that claim (and I assume you wouldn't suggest citing Snyder to say in Wiki voice that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a fascistic and genocidal war of conquest). Rather, I'm suggesting the article mention his core argument (which was appropriately qualified in my edit, just as Snyder's currently is) that Russia's principal aim in the conflict was to prevent Ukraine from becoming a Western bulwark on the Russian border. The idea that Russia is motivated by strategic interests, however criminally, murderously, or foolishly, is not a fringe view, as the sources I've provided establish. entropyandvodka | talk 03:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm also thinking that Mzajak's comment on related geopolitics issues with China might be relevant to mention in the short 3-4 sentence edit being discussed here (when Mzajak states "...the US POV, regarding Russia and China). There is a significant distinction in Biden stating that he would not send boots-on-the-ground to Ukraine because of pertinent WW3 threats, however, Biden has also stated that he would commit US military to defend Taiwan in case China were to invade it. That's a strong dividing line between American geopolitics and foreign policy for Ukraine as opposed to Taiwan, which might deserve some comment. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:20, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
It seems like that may be more appropriate in a different section than the background, but I'm open to seeing the proposed edit. The question here is what's in the scope of understanding the background of the conflict. For example, I refrained from mentioning Georgia in my other background edit suggestion, even though from the realist perspective it's further evidence for their point, because I was trying to keep it focused on Ukraine. Georgia entering NATO was also a red line for Russia, both were promised membership in the 2008 Bucharest summit, and Russia threatened and carried out a military response in both cases. In the case of Georgia, Russia immediately moved to recognize (and considered annexing) Abkhazia and South Ossetia immediately after the Bucharest summit, and took military action that same year. Remember, France and Germany opposed Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO because Russia would view it as an existential threat. To this day, the Russian military presence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia has confounded Georgia's NATO accession, though ideas have been floated of them joining while forgoing being able to make an Article 5 invocation on those regions.
Side note: when you changed my proposed edit, you worded it such that the reason France and Germany opposed Ukraine's accession to NATO was that it would upset the balance of power in Europe. This seems inaccurate or misleading. The reason they gave was that Russia would see it as an existential threat,[37] that it would be an "unnecessary offense" to Russia.[38]. The countries opposed were France, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, though it probably makes the most sense to list France and Germany. entropyandvodka | talk 18:47, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Since you bring it up, another relevant opinion from a realist in geopolitics (who is not a neorealist) is Henry Kissinger who has given the opinion that Ukraine should begin negotiating the best outcomes it can obtain by way of concessions to Russia in light of its recent losses to Russia. It seems like the 3-4 sentence edit being discussed here for the Background section would need to mention a representative voice from both the hawks and the doves on this issue of the geopolitical responses to the Invasion. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
There is a sentence in the Reactions section at the end of the first paragraph:
Reactions to the invasion have varied considerably across a broad spectrum of concerns including public response, media responses, peace efforts, and the examination of the legal implications of the invasion.
It would be reasonable to expand there (though how much I'm not sure, as there's a separate article on peace talks). Hawk and dove responses to the invasion probably shouldn't be in the background section, but the relevant (and very different) analyses of the crisis leading up to the invasion, which may fall on hawkish and dovish lines, should. Observers who believe this is an imperialist conquest (Snyder) and those who believe it is a reaction to NATO expansion (Mearsheimer, Walt, Hill, etc) offer a totally different understanding of the background (and consequently they offer different proposals for peace, like Kissenger). I've seen Kissenger's comments after the invasion, but am not aware if he made any remarks or analyses of it before the invasion. That NYT piece by Fiona Hill, however, was published very soon before the invasion. entropyandvodka | talk 20:14, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure that I'm supporting you on this if you are stating that it might be a good idea to include this edit on the related article at Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. You also would be justified to do both versions of your edit there, for the 'before the invasion' opinions on the geopolitics, and then the 'after the invasion' comments about the geopolitics of the invasion. As I recall a number of commentaries spoke of the cynical aspects of Russia being asked by China to delay its invasion until the conclusion of the Beijing Olympics, and Russia acquiescing to do this. Mentioning China might be good to add to such an edit and the Reactions page I just referred to is not page protected for your edits to work. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the support. Perhaps the best spot for the delay of the invasion requested by China would be in the "Prelude and declaration of military operations" section? It may need a qualifier like "according to a Western intelligence report" (the sources discussing it similarly qualified it) so as to not assert an unpublished intel report as fact in Wiki voice, but I support mentioning it; Russia-China relations have been strongly affected by Russia-NATO relations in terms of balance of power.
I think our next step would be to organize what information we can agree on in each edit and the placement of each edit. We're talking about one (or possibly two) in the background section of this article, one in the Prelude and declaration of military operations section, one in the related article Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, and then also a condensed version of that one in the reactions section at the end of this article? entropyandvodka | talk 21:07, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm supporting your going ahead on the Reactions page with both of the sections discussed above; one for pre-invasion geopolitics and one for post-invasion geopolitics. Once that's done a new thread can be opened here as needed and all editors should be able to refer to the new sections on the Reactions page once they are edited and added in the Reactions article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:19, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Here are the requested RS for the above items:

  • Biden's sources on WW3 scenario are the following for the LA Times here [39], for Bloomberg News here [40], and a third one here [41].
  • Poland's retraction of plans to provide planes in the air being thwarted due to geopolitical tension is from CBS here [42], from WION in New Dehli here [43], and again from WION in a separate report here [44].
  • The Wikipedia article for the linked CSTO lists the six countries in military alliance with Russia in the event that Russian soil is under threat from foreign adversaries.
  • I'm not sure about your quip about Satan, though Putin is known to go on holidays to visit the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow where he is greeted by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow who describes Putin's rule as a "miracle from God".

That seems like a reasonable number of reliable sources for adding something on the Geopolitical balance of powers involved in the Russian invasion to the article about the invasion being discussed here on this Talk page. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Given the story about 11 Corps from Kalingrad, I am unsure if Rusia is in a position to attack Poland anymore. So we really need RS talking about this to add it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
1. "idea that the US is going to unilaterally use force to confront Russia invading Ukraine is not on the cards right now." - bold mine
2. There wasn't retraction, US halted that idea as reported here [45] and here [46]
3. There's ongoing conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, yet I haven't heard about any CSTO members helping
4. Patriarch Kirill is also suspected to be ex-KGB agent, so not the best source to back up any claims
GiM (talk) 11:43, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
I meant that there are no explanations for this war in terms of “balance of power” (and that should be the number one fact to source in terms of geopolitics for the article).
It is rooted in the Putin régime’s need for external conflict and his desire to restore a Russian empire, especially his obsession with Ukraine. Piled on top of that are a panoply of propaganda lines including “NATO,” “genocide,” “denazification,” “de-satanization,” and all the rest, which become reasons for it after they are introduced and accepted by the targets of the propaganda.  —Michael Z. 19:31, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks to GiM for his thoughtful comments; my short answers follow:
1. Its been over 6 months and there is still no discussion about any type of boots on the ground action by the USA.
2. Planes in the air are not being sent to Ukraine in any appreciable manner; it would be seen as overly provocative as a spur against Russian.
3. Signatories of CSTO are required under the treaty to invoke activation of the military alliances; in the absence of such diplomatic invocations of the treat then it will not be activated.
4. Kirill is so old at this point in time that is difficult to see him as an agent of anything; are there any reliable source on this?
There continues to be the veiled and overt threats made by Russia, that any action by NATO on Russian soil might result in retaliatory tactical nuclear strikes against NATO countries as covered in the Nuclear Arms section of this Invasion article (also covered in the Wikipedia article here at Nuclear threats during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine). ErnestKrause (talk) 14:35, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
To go into depth on the issue in a meaningful way would likely require a lot of depth and space. Rather than possibly over bloating this article perhaps it might be better to make a new article about balance of power issues if editors are interested in doing so. BogLogs (talk) 00:38, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
I found a fact-check of the Satan thing. There's a Russian-language source. [47]. --142.181.101.31 (talk) 19:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
User:Entropy has not signed in since the 4 November, and if someone might have a suggestion for the 2-3 sentence edit he was suggesting for describing current Russian geopolitics in Ukraine, then it might be useful for someone to add it below for discussion on this talk page? ErnestKrause (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Some of that possibly belongs to page World War III, not sure. My very best wishes (talk) 21:10, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
My very best wishes: It looks like User:Entropy had a good thought for where to place this geopolitics edit; if you can figure out a 2-3 sentence edit which works for it then I'll try to support you for adding it. Once its added, then it will be easier to decide how to add it to other articles like your World War III article as well? ErnestKrause (talk) 22:08, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

New, brilliant interview with Mearsheimer in the New Yorker: “John Mearsheimer on Putin’s Ambitions After Nine Months of War.” I can’t believe we would choose this person’s opinion as a prominent source. Isn’t there someone with a realist POV that isn’t a pathetic charlatan? —Michael Z. 17:06, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Mearsheimer is a full professor at the University of Chicago and an endowed chair; are editors allowed to speak of him in a non-neutral tone? From the interview you linked it appears as if he hung up on the interviewer at the end. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
@Mzajac Do you have evidence that he's a charlatan? It seems like you're going for an ad hominem purely because you don't like or disagree with his view. In the interview you're referring to, it appears the interviewer agreed in advance to what the scope of the interview would be, then attempted to go outside of that scope after being warned not to. If this speaks to anything, it's a lack of professionalism or a hostility on the part of the interviewer in this particular interview. Perhaps you ought to read The Tragedy of Great Power Politics rather than making snap judgments here. Otherwise, if you have an issue with his arguments or the relevant facts brought up here, how about providing an RS disputing those specifically? entropyandvodka | talk 18:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Starting a new article on Iran in the invasion

I would love to have collaborators at Iran in the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Adoring nanny (talk) 18:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Sigh, it has been draftified to Draft:Iran in the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine. I'm less than fully familiar with such things, but it seems to me like a legit topic. I would still love a collaborator. Adoring nanny (talk) 21:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Now at Iran in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Adoring nanny (talk) 16:13, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Maps in the support section

Could the two maps be merged together as they show nothing conflicting. Simply adding the dark blue nations to the "Even humanitarian support" map and merging the two captions could do it. Mitch199811 (talk) 23:27, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I think you might be best off leaving a comment on the respective maps’ pages at commons:, or posting a request at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop.  —Michael Z. 19:27, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Will do, thank you! Mitch199811 (talk) 20:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2022

initally → initially 80.1.114.146 (talk) 11:03, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Pabsoluterince (talk) 11:11, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC about inclusion of "Peace efforts" section

I've closed a previously archived RFC. I'm noting this here in case there is further discussion to be had. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 06:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Time of the declaration of the invasion of Ukraine

I think that the exact time of the declaration should be listed as being 10:00 PM February 23rd, 2022, based on when news articles announcing the declaration broke the news, as well as p. 12-13 of UN SC log S/PV.8974. Also, it should be mentioned in the article that, just before the invasion, at around 9:00 to 9:15 PM Feb 23 2022 (ET) , that missiles were being fired towards Ukraine (I do not know if they were armed or not, but I remember videos of these missiles circulating around Twitter before 10 PM ET). Bst9jkj (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Addendum: I believe the missiles fired around 9:15 were the reason that the UN Security Council S/PV.8974 was held in the first place Bst9jkj (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Addendum: I believe the missiles fired around 9:15 were the reason that the UN Security Council S/PV.8974 was held in the first place. Bst9jkj (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

ET (Eastern Time in North America) is not directly relevant. Dunno if that’s the same, or if daylight savings affected the relative times on February 24, but the article says “on 24 February, before 5:00 a.m. Kyiv time,” based on the cited source.[48]  —Michael Z. 20:09, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Well Daylight Savings wasn't in effect on Feb 24 of this year, it started around March and ended this November. But 10:00 pm on Feb 23 was 5:00 am Feb 24 for them. And in UTC, the time should be 3:00 AM Feb 24, I think. Bst9jkj (talk) 17:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 November 2022

Replace "2022 Crimean Bridge Explosion" with "Crimean bridge explosion" under "Events in Crimea", because the main page is called "Crimean Bridge Explosion", not "2022 Crimean Bridge Explosion". Bluehalooo (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 22:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Casualties

the US estimate cited in the causalities section of ~100k dead or injured Ukrainians is literally General Milley saying there have been about 100k russian casualties and "probably about the same for the ukrainians". Does that in any way seem like a good enough source? Its probably not that far off, but the way its stated here makes it seem like some sort of official estimate and not an offhand remark. --jonas (talk) 10:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

RUSI report

Here’s an invaluable retrospective report on the first five months of the war. It summarizes a lot of thing in an encyclopedic fashion and brings new information to light. Written by British and Ukrainian military experts working for the respective states.

 —Michael Z. 16:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2022

Add material support from NATO and EU being sent Ukraine to the summary table. 193.28.38.104 (talk) 13:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done See Q2 of the #FAQ at the top of this page. — Czello 13:24, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine is supported by Ichkeria Volunteers

They should place the Dzhokhar Dudayev Battalion from the Ichkeria on the Ukrainian side Contribuyendo para el bien de la humanidad (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 18:51, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Ukraine has many volunteers from north caucasian peoples, especially chechnya-ichkeria, but theyre part of the ukrainian forces, not a separate force, so i see no reason for inclusal. 187.183.72.200 (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
It’s part of Ukraine’s International Legion of Territorial Defence of Ukraine. —Michael Z. 22:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Additional map border of the Russian-claimed regions cf frontlines

Could there be an additional border added to the map of the zones that Russia has "officially" annexed. It could be interesting to note this compared to current frontlines without cluttering the map too much.

Thanks 5.66.85.71 (talk) 14:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The borders of the Russian-claimed oblasts are actually shown, but not labelled. Russia has made conflicting statements about the actual boundaries of the territory it claims (Russia can’t say where “Russia’s borders” are).
The best place to suggest changes to the map is probably its talk page on commons: commons:File talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg.  —Michael Z. 16:32, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Infobox 'Strength' obsolete

References from January and February 2022 and February 2021. Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

See the FAQs at the top: A5: There is currently lack of reliable data about mobilized reservists in Ukraine and the separatist republics, and about additional reinforcements sent by Russia, so infobox currently reflects initial 24 February 2022 strengths based on the best available information. This may change in future when more information becomes available. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Is it obvious for the reader of the page? Xx236 (talk) 07:39, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I think we should remove that information from the infobox. BilledMammal (talk) 08:07, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
The estimates of troop strength at the start of the invasion were made by satellite confirmations of the massing of troops on the Ukraine border while the Beijing Olympics were taking place. This information from satellite images is generally seen as accurate and was reported as accurate in the international press. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine's right to exist claim

This might be odd for me to talk about here, but I notice that there is mention in the article that Putin addressed the world decrying Ukraines right to exist. This did not happen, and in fact he promoted the right of Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics to exist. Is it not improper to make things up out of nowhere? If someone can quote Putin with those wordings, I won't delete the wording. Not like it will matter, Wikipedia will just restore the edit, but I feel that it is my right to protest. I won't comment on the rest of the article, but this was too much. Can someone with more authority than me delete the ridiculous comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:6503:C500:D4A:15AF:5B9F:720C (talk) 15:27, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Can you point out where in the article it is detailed Putin decried "Ukraines right to exist"? I show in the lead where Putin addressed Ukraine's right to Statehood and other claims he made, and these appear to be sourced reliably. I show no quotes or otherwise attributed to Putin like this; however I only used a quick Ctrl+F search, did I overlook something? King keudo (talk) 15:57, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
But I have read the original text, and it really does claim that "Ukraine can be called Ukraine of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin" (as in an epithet) and that "it was created by the Bolshevik, Communist Russia". Similarly, Putin claimed this: "Ukraine is an inseparable part (emphasis mine) of our (Russian. - note) own history, culture, and spiritual space" (духовное пространство - his favourite phrase). The full text can be found here (in Russian). 2A02:AB04:2C2:E300:8443:DD37:C24D:6F5F (talk) 18:23, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Here’s the Kremlin’s English translation: “Address by the President of the Russian Federation,” 2022-02-21.
Yes, Putin plainly casts doubt on Ukraine’s right to exist with disinformation about its origin and nature. There are plenty of secondary sources testifying to this about his speech, and some are cited in our own article about it, “Address concerning the events in Ukraine.” The same can be said about his 2021 article “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” although our selection of cited sources evaluating that one are relatively soft-spoken.
Both the essay and the speech have been cited by experts as part of “laying the groundwork for incitement to genocide: denying the existence of the Ukrainian group.”[49]  —Michael Z. 17:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 December 2022

Attack on hospitals

https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-hospitals-generate-master-plan-to-save-newborns-from-russian-military-11756941.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-ukrainian-hospital-newborns-receive-28670609

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-63588749

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63727260 Rambo XTerminator (talk) 06:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. What specific text are you requesting be added and where? Cannolis (talk) 07:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Article naming in 2023

Has there been any discussion yet about the name of this article when it's 2023? As we are now in the final month of the year, and most certainly the war continuing into the new year, what will we be naming this article?

I think because of this, there will have to be a separate Russian Invasion article detailing the early events during winter in February/March, and everything after to be Russo-Ukrainian War (2022-present) (or War in Ukraine (2022-present). WR 12:39, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The 2022 Russian Invasion is seen my many editors as part of the Russo-Ukraine War article; the 2022 Russian Invasion article is presently in the middle of a consolidation phase which seems a little different than its origins as an Invasion as 2023 approaches. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:20, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
The conflict since February 24 can be divided into several different phases. A number of sources theorize that there is a slower tempo during the wet fall season, but that it’s likely to heat up when the ground freezes, and/or when a portion of the Russian mobiks finish military training (while others suppose the Russian will keep sending them in piecemeal), or in springtime. On the other hand, Ukrainians continue pressure in the northeast and are conducting an op in the Kinburn Peninsula, Russians keep pounding at Bakhmut, and Ukrainians are likely conducting shaping operations for the next phase now that their artillery has increased its reach into Zaporizhzhia oblast.
I haven’t seen any source saying it “is presently in the middle of a consolidation phase.” What does that mean? When did it start?  —Michael Z. 16:46, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
The Russo-Ukrainian War is in its ninth year. This view reflects consensus in reliable sources.  —Michael Z. 16:37, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
You know, when 2022 is over we can just create war in Ukraine 2023. Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
The annexation phase, if everyone has not noticed, has pretty much signaled what appears to have been a halt to further Russian expansion into Ukraine. To continue statements made throughout the international press since the annexation, then the annexation signals Putin's effective creation of a land bridge from Russia to Crimea which, if consolidated, would represent a substantial gain in his 'special military operations' against Ukraine. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:26, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Wasn’t Russia’s last significant advance (not “expansion”) the occupation of Lyman at the end of May? They’ve been pounding at Bakhmut since August, and continue to do so now.
The Azov coast was occupied in June, after the occupation of the ruins of Mariupol, but there is still no “effective land bridge”: there is a single-track railway line that’s in range of not only Ukraine’s GMLRS but regular howitzers. Main resupply must come through Crimea, which is why the damage to the Crimean bridge was key.
I don’t know what you mean by “continuing statements” and “consolidating.”  —Michael Z. 04:02, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Russian forces’ withdrawals actually started in March with their defeat at the Battle of Kyiv. The Kharkiv oblast rout was in September, and the liberation of Kherson in November. I believe they may have lost control of more territory in Ukraine than they still occupy. So to say that their advances have halted only recently does not accurately reflect reality. —Michael Z. 16:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
The annexation of the 4 oblasts seems to be a definitive move by Putin; he does not appear to want to return them and seems as tenacious to keep them as with Crimea 7 years ago. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
you mean the “annexation” of territories Russia can’t keep because it never managed to take and is actually losing in Kherson, undermining its own occupation of Crimea by making it one among the partially occupied claimed territories? It’s definitively a self-defeating and idiotic move made out of desperation.  —Michael Z. 15:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
It will remain the invasion of February 24, 2022. I don’t think it needs to be renamed. But if it must, then how about 2022–2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine?  —Michael Z. 04:04, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Agree here on the renaming issue with Michael; the other option might be to call it something like the Annexation of the 4 oblasts. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Not sure if any change is needed as well but 2022–2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine is probably the most reasonable one. BogLogs (talk) 15:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm personally more of a proponent of a move to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–2023), but whichever title is chosen, it's definitely a good idea to plan for this ahead of time. XTheBedrockX (talk) 22:57, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand the reasoning behind this? At this point 9 months into the war, it can't be an "invasion" anymore, the invasion is already gone past and this is the longer war phase. Read the first lines of Invasion: An invasion is a military offensive in which large numbers of combatants of one geopolitical entity aggressively enter territory owned by another such entity, generally with the objective of either: conquering; liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory; forcing the partition of a country; altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government; or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself. --WR 14:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Sure it remains an invasion. Russia just forcibly conscripted another 300,000 plus to aggressively enter Ukraine with the aim of conquest. It continues bombing civilian infrastructure to force surrender and extend its illegal influence.  —Michael Z. 15:25, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm afraid I disagree, but let's see what the general consensus here is. --WR 18:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Re: argument that “9 months ≠ invasion,” while it’s true that many articles titled invasion of represent events lasting only days or weeks, there are exceptions:
 —Michael Z. 18:33, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment The guidance for article names is to use the WP:COMMONNAME as determined by usage in sources. We may only choose another name when the sources give us no guidance on how an article should be named. WP reports history, it doesn't create the history. That the invasion spills over into 2023 does not ipso facto change how the event is known nor does it give us licence to change the name because we believe that we can make-up a better name. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
    Well the article title needs to distinguish this nine-month phase of the eight-year war in the entire context of history, according to the WP:CRITERIA. Few sources have that requirement, so they refer to “the Russo-Ukrainian war,” “the war in Ukraine” or whatever. So it’s not that simple.  —Michael Z. 15:19, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

In light of that I think the same applies to this article: a separate "invasion phase" article of the early days of the war followed by an article of everything that followed. --WR 14:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

You want to write a new article to change a title you disagree with? Naming tail wagging encyclopedia dog.  —Michael Z. 15:16, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
It's not as simple as me disagreeing with the title, logically speaking it must change when the date rolls into 2023. I propose a split with the invasion events to stay here, and the rest to go into another a new page War in Ukraine (2022-present). As for Russo-Ukrainian War, there are plenty of examples of "wars within wars" that could guide us, see for instance the 1982 Lebanon War (i.e. Israeli invasion) within the Lebanese Civil War. Another proposal could be moving the current Russo-Ukrainian War article to Russo-Ukrainian War (2014-2022), and the rest to the latest "phase" to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and Russo-Ukrainian War (2022-present). --WR 18:08, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Can you articulate the rationale for a split according to the criteria at WP:SPLIT? What would be the scope of the two new articles? Even if this makes sense, I believe there would still have to be a main article covering the conflict since February 24, with a title that we can agree on.  —Michael Z. 18:21, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

I haven't researched the titles of comparable articles, but it makes sense to me at least that Russia invaded in 2022. We are now in the aftermath/consequences of that invasion. I have an open mind on the subject of splits, but I do think it is important to maintain perspective and in some main article explain the relationships between 2014, the Frozen War, and 2022. Elinruby (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Commanders and Leaders

Left to right: Aleksandr Dvornikov (Commander of Field Operations), Sergey Shoigu (Defense Minister) and Alexander Zhuravlyov (previous Commander of Field Operations, reassigned under Dvornikov after 8 April 2022)

I think that on both sides it should include the commanders of forces, such as on the Russian side it should include Sergei Shoigu (Minister of Defence), Valery Gerasimov (Chief of the General Staff), and Sergey Surovikin (Commander of Forces in Ukraine), and on the Ukrainian side it should include Oleksii Reznikov (Minister of Defence, Valerii Zaluzhnyi (Commander-in-Chief of Armed Forces), Serhiy Shaptala (Chief of the General Staff), and Serhiy Nayev (Commander, Joint Forces Command). As well it possibly should mention other people mentioned in the article of the Order of battle for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. -CIN I&II (talk) 07:26, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, entries in the infobox should summarise key points in the article and consequently an entry should be supported by more than a passing mention that would show that a commander's role was key. The present entries reflect this. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Agreed.
Per {{Infobox military conflict}}, the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary). For wars, only prominent or notable leaders should be listed, with an upper limit of about seven per combatant column recommended. Ranks and position titles should be omitted.
This article is not about the eight-year war, but a campaign larger in scope than a battle. Its military leaders are prominent and have been covered by multiple feature articles in the context of the conflict. They should at least be identified. If they have not yet been mentioned in this article, then they are a good example of key specialised information [that] is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox, per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE.  —Michael Z. 15:35, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Currently, Shoigu, Surovikin, and Zaluzhnyi are mentioned in the article. Gerasimov, Reznikov, and Syrskyi can also be listed in the infobox for balance and completeness.  —Michael Z. 15:41, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Adding all 6 of them might require adding the Ukrainian counterparts as well. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:49, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I listed three of each there. —Michael Z. 17:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
The last time I tried to get a multi-image of the three top Russian commanders into the article, then the Talk page reaction was not very responsive a few months ago. If the transition in the special military operations is now towards Russian occupation being solidified, then it seems like the major military action is nearly at a close and moving into a consolidation phase for the Russians. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:56, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
The reason why I had specifically specified each of them there was to list a still somewhat small but still semi comprehensive list for the highest up people for this specific case, especially since it could get both them and their counterparts in each nation. The main reason for it is that the article states "commanders and leaders" within the infobox but then can be odd to a reader when it only states concerning the two heads of state of each nation, when it is very different for other nations. -CIN I&II (talk) 22:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I understood it that way, and I think it’s a good proposal. I would add Surovikin’s predecessors too. —Michael Z. 22:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Yeah I think that adding Zhidko and Dvornikov would be a good idea as well, since the commander of Russian Forces in Ukraine has changed during this invasion specifically. CIN I&II (talk) 17:44, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
If they have not been mentioned then they should not be included. This is not a case of key specialised information [that] is difficult to integrate into the body text. It does not conform to the spirit or intent of the exception the guidance would create nor the examples given. The key roles of Putin and Zelenskyy are evidenced by the article. If the roles of others are similarly key, there is no good reason (particularly given the number of contributors here) that they too could not be integrated into the article in a way that would evidence that their role has been key. WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE tells us not to write the article in the infobox and that an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:40, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
It totally is key specialized information and does conform to the spirit and intent of the guideline. You’re right, there is no reason they could not be integrated (except possibly length), but they haven’t been so far.  —Michael Z. 03:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE notes specific exceptions to a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text as ISO codes and the parameters (physical properties) used for chemicals. In the latter case, such properties are by their nature usually presented in tabulated form. This exception would apply to data in general that is normally tabulated. ISO codes in the language template are again, a specific piece of "data" that probably would not otherwise be written into prose but everything else in that template should be summarised from the article. Commanders do not meet with the spirit and intent of the guidance. In agreeing that there is no reason why they could not be integrated into the article is inherently an acknowledgement that they do not fall to being an exception. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Hm, no. It doesn’t say that.
In fact, commanders are exactly that kind of data: some of them may be difficult to integrate because there’s not much to say about, e.g., Shaptala and Nayev who no one’s ever heard of, but a table of commanders on either side is integral to the subject, and that’s exactly why the infobox has commander1 and commander2 fields literally intended to create a table of commanders. —Michael Z. 06:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Hm, what exactly doesn't say what? Cinderella157 (talk) 07:07, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
It gives examples but doesn’t explain in detail any of what you’ve inferred from it, about “tabulated data,” &c.  —Michael Z. 21:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
One only needs to look at articles on chemicals to realise that most of the information that appears in the infobox of a chemical is numerical and would normally be presented in tabulated form. It would therefore not be reasonable to have two duplicate tables in an article. If one looks at the nature of each exception, with a mind turned to why are these exceptions it is not too difficult to grasp the reasons as I have explained. The guidance is making a distinction between specialised information (such as ISO codes) and general information in an infobox. Commanders and leaders are not specialised but general information. Information about commanders and leaders should be integrated into an article and thereby establish which commanders have been key or significant to a battle or war. To say that it would be difficult to integrate some that you would include because there’s not much to say about [them] is a self-defeating argument - there is not much that would show that they are key or significant. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:27, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That a lot of dancing around the language. Sure, a chemical compound has a list of possible specialized data points, meaning they only apply in the field of chemistry. And so the respective infobox has spaces for them.
In exactly the same way, a military conflict has a list of data points specialized to military history. TO&Es, chains of command, casualties, etcetera. The infobox has spaces for them, literally including fields for commanderN. This is specialized in that it would not, for example, be appropriate an article about a chemical.
The docs say to enter “the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary). For wars, only prominent or notable leaders should be listed, with an upper limit of about seven per combatant column recommended. Ranks and position titles should be omitted.” This article is in between a battle and a war: it’s about a major phase of a war. It’s nowhere near seven names and currently lists no military commanders. It is a glaring omission.  —Michael Z. 16:24, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
[M]ost of the information that appears in the infobox of a chemical is numerical and would normally be presented in tabulated form. It would therefore not be reasonable to have two duplicate tables in an article. If there is any dancing around the language, it is an attempt to claim that commanders are somehow specialist (and not general information) that would fall to the same type of exception at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Template:Infobox military conflict states that these fields are optional. It does not mandate that these fields must be filled to any extent nor does it override the superior guidance at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. And incidentally, both presidents are the supreme (ie ultimate) commanders of their respective militaries. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE we don't write the article in the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
But neither is military, and one of them does not meddle in his military’s activities.  —Michael Z. 14:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
The guideline is not specific only to chemicals. The passage you quoted there is not defining specialized. It is merely an example.
You claim to have unique insight on the meaning of the infobox guideline: “exceptions where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox.”
Specialized means it only applies to the subject. Like physical properties for chemistry. Or like a full roster of top command staff for a military conflict. That is all.
But if you insist specialized is defined by “information that is difficult to integrate into the body text,” then the top officers that are not mentioned in the text are directly and literally that.  —Michael Z. 14:25, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Leaders/commanders is not a term/concept specialised to military conflicts but applies in many other societal contexts outside the military. In articles on military conflicts, it is generally quite reasonable to write an article such that it is evident from the body of the article that certain leaders/commanders were key or significant to the conflict. You appear to opine that in this particular case (not military conflicts generally), for whatever reason, it is too hard to write this article in such a way and that consequently makes this information specialised so that its inclusion can be supported as an exception to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. However, such information is not generally considered specialised such that it cannot be written into military conflict articles generally. The case fails since it relies not only on this being an exception to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE but an exception to military conflicts generally. Therefore, it is not meeting the spirit and intent of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE generally or the exceptions it would make and, in consequence, such a case would appear to fall to WP:PETTIFOGGING. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:04, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I think you are wikilawyering by creating your own non-consensus interpretation of the guideline that you foxiest first mentioned here, to prevent perfectly normal and reasonable information from being placed in the infobox. Several of these commanders and leaders have seen broad coverage in direct relationship to this conflict and ought not be omitted.  —Michael Z. 16:05, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
And I don’t know of any infobox from a different subject area that has specialized “commander” field. Do you?  —Michael Z. 16:07, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
The statement is now: Several of these commanders and leaders have seen broad coverage in direct relationship to this conflict and ought not be omitted. If the article can be improved, then it should be improve and then the infobox can be changed when it reflects the body of the article. But if you insist specialized is defined by “information that is difficult to integrate into the body text,” then the top officers that are not mentioned in the text are directly and literally that. This is a circular definition and a fallacy of definition. Arguments that rely on logical fallacies are characteristic of a WP:PETTIFOGGING case. Foxiest - what do you mean? Given your comments, there appears to be only one course and that is to seek comment from the broader community on what is an exception to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE in this context. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:55, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Are you stating that you are opposed to Michael asking to include Shoigu and Dvornikov to the Infobox; both of them are mentioned in the current article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
You *first mentioned. Spellcheck turned a typo into “foxiest.”  —Michael Z. 16:05, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Also the title for that section of the infobox is "Commanders and leaders". It is a little strange to list only the two national leaders when prominent military commanders are well known and easily added for readers background information. BogLogs (talk) 09:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Sergey Surovikin was appointed as commander of the Russian invasion in October 2022.

For one, Valerii Zaluzhnyi, AFU C-in-C since July 2021, is notable, purely because of his role in this article’s subject. Time called him one of the world’s 100 most influential in the world and put him on the cover. There are several prominent articles about him, based on his military success in this conflict.[50][51][52][53]

The article currently is not organized either to the main military commanders or the Order of battle, though it does follow the Invasion based on its three Phases, now moving into what appears to be its consolidation phase. Shoigu is mentioned 3 times in the article as a whole and 5 times in the Bibliographic references. Dvornikov is mentioned as the new field commander for Phase two though he is eventually displaced. That's the only mention I've found of the commanders; this Invasion article was not written in a form which would highlight the field commanders by preferential treatment of some kind. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Of course it’s not organized “to the commanders,” because it’s a history of the invasion. That’s why mention of them is spotty, and needs to be filled out.
In fact, never mind the infobox: the article needs a “Commanders” section. The fact that the Russians started without a supreme commander is critical information, for example.  —Michael Z. 16:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
Should the multi-image be included in this article? Or should the article be left predominantly as Putin's War and Zelenskyy's Defenses. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
A multi-image would enhance the article, but I wouldn’t use just portraits of leaders.
But that’s an insightful question, the way it’s phrased. Putin’s charismatic, personality-based political leadership and military meddling has de-emphasized the role of soldiers, except when blame needs to be assigned. In contrast, Ukraine’s democratic information space gives due credit to professional and volunteer personnel at all levels.
Our infobox contents should not reinforce the Putinist propaganda view by wilfully omitting the military commanders that are normally present in articles about military conflicts.  —Michael Z. 16:34, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Firstly, if we don't want to reinforce the Putinist propaganda, write it into the article. The fundamental advice at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE is not to write the article in the infobox. Of course it’s not organized “to the commanders,” because it’s a history of the invasion. Other articles that are the history of a battle or like can still be written to show how/why commanders were key or significant to the event. If this truly is a problem, then fix the article - first. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images is the guidance on choosing images. Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context ... They are often an important illustrative aid [emphasis added] to understanding. In other words, images supplement content on a particular matter. They are not a substitute for content. If there is no content about the commanders and leaders imaged, then there is no relevance established through content. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the article as it is written now, then Phase two placed Dvornikov fully center stage as taking over the Invasion from Shoigu at central command; he is later displaced during the third phase of the invasion. That's how the article currently presents the Russian commanders issue in its current format. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:42, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Let me try this again, User:Cinderella157. You seem to believe the military commanders would belong in the infobox if they’re mentioned in the article. Okay, the following are mentioned in the text of the article, some several times:

So most of these belong in the infobox, right? Well, that’s fine, but it would be unbalanced with another Russian politician and peanut gallery of Russian generals, but only one Ukrainian. Lopsided coverage. So we should add in the other side’s counterparts too, to fill in the subject-specific roster of of military commanders and leaders, no? —Michael Z. 22:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

What I have actually said is: Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, entries in the infobox should summarise key points in the article and consequently an entry should be supported by more than a passing mention that would show that a commander's role was key. To that statement, you responded: Agreed. For those listed, I see for some near identical statements at different places in the body. Such unnecessary duplication should be remedied and certainly does not count toward establishing significance. Talking head mentions probably don't count either. While it would be best to address any proposition on a case-by-case basis, a cursory examination suggests that only Dvornikov as a clear possibility. Rather than simply adding couterparts for the appearance of balance we should concentrate on the article. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, an article should remain complete with the infobox ignored. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:29, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I support sticking to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE as laid out by Cinderella157. Bondegezou (talk) 07:30, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Would it be useful to simplify this general inquiry to the specific question of whether Shoigu should be mentioned next to Putin, and Zelenskyy's Defense minister next to his name. Does adding one name in each column provide a workable solution? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:28, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
It seems inadequate to add more politicians and omit all military commanders, including those mentioned in the article.
As far as I can tell, the “infobox purpose” argument is self-contradictory, amounting to military commanders shouldn’t be listed in the infobox articles on military conflicts in which the main subject is not the military commanders.  —Michael Z. 17:53, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
That would be a gross misrepresentation of the guidance at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and how it has been stated to apply to this discussion: ... entries in the infobox should summarise key points in the article and consequently an entry should be supported by more than a passing mention that would show that a commander's role was key. This WP:P&G does not prevent commanders/leaders from being added to the infobox but places a caveat on when it is appropriate to do so. There is nothing self-contradictory in what has actually been said. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand how it would not be relevant to include the military commanders who have lead large amounts of forces in Ukraine in this specific invasion within the infobox. Genuinely I am entirely unable to see how that could possibly not be relevant. WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE very clearly states that the infobox as well should summarise the text of the article, which this summarises the chain of command putting it within the infobox, I don't see how it is possibly against WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. - User:CIN I&II (talk) 17:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
CIN I&II, I am not voicing a view on its relevance. I am not saying it can't be in the article. You are correct when you say: WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE very clearly states that the infobox as well should summarise the text of the article. Therein lies the crux. If it is not in the body of the article, then you can't summarise something from the body that doesn't exist there into the infobox. My view then draws on the documentation, which refers to key or significant commanders and leaders. The body of the article should show that they are key or significant and by more than a passing comment that they simply exist. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
It summarises part of the entire point of the article, if the article on WWII didn't mention Hitler in it he still would be a commander or leader, the infobox is meant to summarise the article which is speaking of the article and the purpose of the article, as well earlier you had gone against adding those who are mentioned in the article, so I dearly do not understand at all what you are arguing, the only thing that I can actually piece together from your argument is that it shouldn't be in it. As well I would say especially that the heads of the entire Ukraine area from the Russian side would qualify as commanders and leaders, especially as well the other people mentioned. They very much are key and significant to the 2022 invasion of Ukraine CIN I&II (talk) 20:02, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC about exceptions to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and commanders/leaders in Template:Infobox military conflict

Please comment at the subject RfC.

Are you posting an RFC which is asking for editors of Lady Gaga's songs in Media, for example, to comment about including military commanders in an invasion article Infobox? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
If consensus can not be reached after multiple good faith attempts between editors an RfC is the way to go. All editors are welcome to support the building of wikipedia wether they focus on pages like this or even Korean pop bands. BogLogs (talk) 23:00, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
That is not an RFC about this article and its content in the infobox. It is an RFC about an obscure interpretation of one point in a separate guideline, to feed into a poorly formed argument to prevent us from agreeing about the content. If there is no consensus on this question, then there should be an RFC on this question here.  —Michael Z. 17:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Summary of views

For the question of whether to list some military commanders in the infobox, this is what I glean from the discussion above to date. Please feel free correct the list if I got your position wrong. —Michael Z. 17:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

You can add me as a “no” too, as per my comments above. Bondegezou (talk) 07:42, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Looks correct though I did want to say that still that these kinds of things aren't votes if I remember the discussion on the move request for the page Charles III. - CIN I&II (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Agree, but the discussion is long and I was starting to lose track of who was saying what.  —Michael Z. 18:15, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussion is long, yes! I think the key point I take from the Manual of Style on infoboxes is that we should focus on getting the article content right. The infobox content should then be easy, as it summarises what is in the article. If you think the relevant commanders and leaders are not covered well, fix that in the main article body. Once you've done that, any necessary changes in the infobox will be trivial. Having long discussions about the infobox are often a sign that the article body is not getting the appropriate attention. Bondegezou (talk) 12:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Are you or anyone in this discussion going to add any of these military commander images into the article with an appropriate caption? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:30, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
The comment by Bondegezou pretty much goes to the question of images in much the same way. The purpose of an image is to support particular text (a caption is not part of the readable prose but serves to establish a link between an image and the text it supports). Images are a supplement to text, not a substitute. If there is no text to support or supplement, there is no case for the addition of a particular image per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images. Fix the main article body. Once you've done that, any additional images in support of the text will be trivial. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:00, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
What is “fix”? Seven military leaders are mentioned in the body. Yet you oppose listing them in the infobox. How ought it be fixed to satisfy you?  —Michael Z. 15:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
I see above you said Dvornikov is “a clear possibility” to list in the infobox. What exactly does that mean? We should add one former theatre commander is acceptable to you or not? You think it’s suitable to include a spotty list of effectively random individuals? Or you think we must fully outline the role in this conflict of every single one before any can be listed?
I think either possibility is an overly narrow interpretation and overly literal application of the infobox guideline that constitutes a refusal to add key points about the subject, directly contradicting its intent and the spirit of common sense.  —Michael Z. 15:43, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
If CIN, Bogslogs and Michael are serious about this, then shouldn't one of you at least try to add Dvorkikov's image somewhere in the Phase two section of the article where his name is already prominently mentioned. It seems that Cinderella would need to see the Dvornikov material augmented, at least by adding such an image, before allowing the Infobox issue to be settled. Can someone add his image in the Phase two section? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
While I would want to 100% do that, I don't have the ability to since the page is protected, I cannot edit the main article about it all. -CIN I&II (talk) 19:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Reduce archive size?

I saw that the talk page archive size was made to 800k when the talk page was very active. However, it seems to have mostly died down, and there isn't the sheer volume to justify massive archives. RPI2026F1 (talk) 19:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Reduced the max archive size down to 400k. Hopefully, this makes navigating newer archives easier. XTheBedrockX (talk) 06:32, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

DLNR are not belligerent parties

The DLNR “people’s republics” have never been independent belligerents. A court in The Hague has found that “from mid-May 2014 onwards, the Russian Federation furthermore had a decisive influence on appointments in senior positions within the DPR and was involved in coordinating military actions as well as in performing military actions on Ukrainian territory. . . . the situation from mid-May 2014 onwards was one in which the Russian Federation exercised overall control over the DPR.”[54] Our own article on Russian people's militias in Ukraine says their illegal armed groups have been under command of Russian officers since 2015. In the military organization, they have been the 1st Army Corps (DNR) and 2nd Army Corps (LNR), subordinated to the Russian 8th Combined Arms Army.

The status of these militias is similar to that of Wagner Group mercenaries or Chechen Kadyrovites, but with less political autonomy as they are directly subordinated to the Russian Ground Forces under Shoigu and Putin.

Since the September 30 “annexation,” Russia and its people’s republics no longer offer any pretence of independence, sovereignty, or autonomy, and their militias are being integrated into Russian Armed Forces.

Leaving “Donetsk People's Republic” and “Luhansk People's Republic” under “Belligerents” along with Russia and Belarus is misleading and non-WP:neutral point of view. They should either be:

  1. Removed from the infobox, as not a sovereign party to the conflict, or
  2. Changed to DPR People's Militia and LPR People's Militia, as the now-unambiguously Russian military formations are formally called, and moved from “Belligerents” to “Units involved.” [updated]

 —Michael Z. 17:49, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Even if they were not independent, they indeed fought, it doesn't matter if they were controlled or not by Russia (indeed i agree that they were Russian-sponsored), they were still insurgents and belligerents, someone also apparently put them under Russia and with a note that they were annexed, that's enough for now, as for the subordination part, it may indeed be true that their army is mainly under Russian control (although there exists some independent groups like Russian imperial movement, cossacks, etc), but like i said, they were already put under Russia in the infobox. SnoopyBird (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Even in Russia, the militias’ status is the same as the 3rd Army Corps (Russia), or its subordinate volunteer battalions that were raised from particular Russian regions. They belong in the infobox under Units involved, (“the units or formations involved”), not Belligerents (“the countries whose forces took part in the conflict” per the docs for {{Infobox military conflict}}).
Your examples, RIM, Cossack units, are also units or formations, not countries.  —Michael Z. 19:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Yet again, i know, their army is under Russian control, but they were indeed an insurgent group that actively fought Ukraine, so no real reason to remove it, also, i never said that RIM or Cossacks are countries, but i said that they are independent formations of the DPR and LPR armies. SnoopyBird (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
DLNR aren’t countries.
Neither their militias, nor RIM, nor Russian Cossacks are independent, but all Russian-controlled. Those are reasons to remove them from “Belligerents,” because they aren’t belligerents, but “Units involved.”  —Michael Z. 00:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
I agree, DPR and LPR aren't really countries, they are insurgents and terrorists, but de facto they are (or were as they were annexed by Russia) proto-countries of some sort (to some extent), they had a government, recognition, permanent population, etc.
Also, their militias, while probably controlled by Russia, did have some degree of autonomy, especially RIM, mercenaries (like Wagner, Rusich, etc) and the Cossacks (they werent officially included under the command of the "people's militias" of donbas, so, to that extent, they also werent really part of the Russian-controlled forces in the region), if we are going to go by that definition, then we might as well do the same to several other articles that list insurgent groups and terrorists as belligerants, "units involved" is for individual units, not for proto-countries/insurgents/terrorists (basically what DPR and LPR are).
SnoopyBird (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Firstly, this is an article about an international conflict between two states, with involvement of a third, Belarus. The main belligerents are states, and “state-like entities” might belong in this category if they were some kind of independent actors. Right?
But the Russian Armed Forces, Armed Forces of Ukraine, DNR People’s Militia and LNR People’s Militia, RIM, Russian registered Cossack units, pro-Russian Cossack units, etcetera, are not parties to the conflict. Militaries, paramilitaries, militias, mercenary organizations, and their constituent formations and units, all are subordinate to some political power or acting for some power’s goals. If they are to be shown in the infobox, they would belong in the “Units” box. Okay?
If the DLNR are to be treated as quasi-states (not bronze-age proto-states), then they should be explicitly qualified “before October 2022.” Agree?
But they are not, and never were. They never had a defined territory (funny: now Russia doesn’t). They were deemed under the overall control of Russia by a court of law, which means Russia as a state is responsible for their war crimes. The “annexation” (humiliating Syria and North Korea by nullifying their “recognition”) shows that they were always the Kremlin’s Potemkin states.  —Michael Z. 01:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Jesus, you are misinterpreting everything i said, this discussion is pointless at this point, WP:SNOW stuff, nobody will accept this, because it has already been agreed before. SnoopyBird (talk) 02:58, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
SnoopyBird: Heightened feeling on this Talk page can be taken in stride. I'm assuming that the break away regions might need some special editing in this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:35, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
For what it is worth, I agree that while the "separatist" governments may initially have been exactly that, and their leadership was local, this has not been the case since well before the invasion, and is very far from SNOW. The military units in particular are commanded by Russians. I am confident that this can be sourced, if anyone actually disputes it. I am not advocating a particular remedy, but they should not be treated as separate countries. That is what the entire war is about. Elinruby (talk) 03:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
The initial political and military leadership from May to August 2014 were sent from Russia: Alexander Borodai, Igor Girkin, and others. These two have personally said it was a Russian effort. When the military mission to take “New Russia” with only covert Russian forces failed, they were ordered back to Moscow and replaced with Ukrainian figureheads.  —Michael Z. 15:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Primary purpose seems to have shifted somewhat to the issue of the annexation of all four oblasts; at this point all four seem relevant to Russian military operations. (See the previous discussion on this Talk page with User:Entropy from November). ErnestKrause (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Are you implying that Zaporizhzhia and Kherson oblasts should be added as belligerents in the infobox? Indeed they have similar status in Russia as partly occupied “annexed” territories. However it is the DNR 1st Army Corps and LNR 2nd Army Corps that are now units of Russian forces, and are fighting in all parts of the occupied territories. There is no sovereign entity there.
Do you mean @Entropyandvodka? They wrote a lot above. What of it is relevant?  —Michael Z. 19:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
That's your opinion. Other opinions are that Putin is a megalomanic bent on restoring the borders of the former USSR. 74.37.206.38 (talk) 19:44, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Overrepresentation of non-Russian minorities in RF forces

Quick question: is there already an article or article section about the current invasion dedicated to the alleged overrepresentation of non-Russian minorities in RF forces? This is widely claimed in RS, with some saying it's a deliberate strategy by the Kremlin to get rid of "ethnic minorities" such as Buryats to make the country more ethnically Russian. I can't find am article or section about it though. Am I missing something or should we write it? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

2022 Russian mobilization#Implementation has a sentence on it. Juxlos (talk) 09:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Are there any numbers about this in terms of the number of soldiers? How many troops in the Russian forces are ethnic and how many non-ethnic? Are there any reliable sources you are using? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
@Juxlos that may be a good place to add more information, yes, but the overrepresentation of minority soldiers was already reported well before the September mobilisation began.
@ErnestKrause There are plenty RS making such claims of recruitment efforts focusing on minority groups since the beginning of the invasion in February 2022, and especially when the mobilisation began in September 2022 that mostly men from minorities were targeted. But there is virtually nothing in the way of official figures (those provided by the RF government on virtually any matter have been suspect by experts ever since the invasion began), and estimates by outside observers are difficult to make and verify. Sometimes experts or politicians draw conclusions (which may or may not be accurate) from these estimates.
Here is an early, pre-mobilisation example from The Guardian, "Coffins in Buryatia: Ukraine invasion takes toll on Russia’s remote regions" (30 March 2022):
[Funerals] as well as reports by independent local media outlets, indicate that Buryatia, and other republics far away from the Kremlin, have been disproportionately affected by the conflict. “It is becoming clear that a lot of the soldiers who are dying are from the poorer ‘ethnic minority’ republics like Buryatia, Kalmykia and Dagestan,” said Pavel Luzin, a Russian military expert. (...) If these numbers are accurate, the three republics of Buryatia, Dagestan and Tuva alone would make up almost a quarter of all the official Russian war deaths.
Post-mobilisation example from The Guardian, "‘A way to get rid of us’: Crimean Tatars decry Russia’s mobilisation" (25 September 2022):
The largely Muslim Crimean Tatars make up about 13% of Crimea’s population. There is no official breakdown of who has been mobilised but extensive anecdotal evidence suggests Crimean Tatars have been targeted disproportionately. Crimea SOS, a Ukrainian rights organisation, estimates that 90% of mobilisation notices have been given to Crimean Tatars. “This is a conscious effort to destroy the Crimean Tatar nation,” Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, said during his nightly video address on Saturday.
Example from the BBC, "Ukraine war: Protests in Russia's Dagestan region against new draft" (26 September):
Recent analysis by the BBC's Russian service showed that at least 301 soldiers from Dagestan have died, 10 times more than in Moscow. The true figure is likely to be far higher.
Some are less specific, but connect it to unrest in the autonomous republics where these minorities are prevalent, and/or how minority separatist groups, Ukraine or Western governments or groups are using these claims of overrepresentation as a reason to urge minorities to resist serving in the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine. Example from Reuters, "Zelenskiy urges minorities in Russia to resist Kremlin mobilisation" (29 September 2022):
Non-Russian groups -- mainly from the Caucasus in the south of Russia and from Siberia -- are over-represented in military contingents sent to Ukraine and violent protests against the mass mobilisation have erupted in some areas gripped by poverty.
It seems like this is a viable topic for a section in an existing article, but which? If, however, we decide it deserves a standalone article, what should the title be? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Some of this has been discussed on the Talk page and in the article previously; where do you think such an edit would fit best in this article? Do you know off hand what is the estimated percentage of ethnic troops fighting for them, is it 10%, 20%, or 30% of the total number of troops? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Well, I couldn't find this in the talk pages and the archives when I searched for 'minorities' (it's mostly about 'Russian-speaking minorities' in Ukraine, and once about some 'Greek-speaking minority'). I'm not even sure if this main article is the best place. I've given a few examples of estimates above; most of them rely on estimates of minority group soldier deaths versus total RF forces deaths vis-à-vis total numbers / percentages of inhabitants of the Russian Federation and Crimea by ethnicity. E.g. if we assume everyone is an equally capable, trained and supplied soldier, then the estimate that almost 25% of all the official Russian war deaths concerns soldiers from just three republics where non-Russian minorities dominate the population, is a pretty significant statement. (But perhaps they are less supplied, less trained and less capable, e.g. due to language barriers, than their Russian-speaking counterparts, so there are other factors to consider before we jump to conclusions).
In any case, from the perspective of death percentages, a new section in Casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War seems a good option. In the Crimean Tatar case, however, it's based on estimates of mobilisation notices; that might fit better in Humanitarian impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Effects on Russian forces. Because a lot of the RS are about the mobilisation specifically, 2022 Russian mobilization#Implementation (or perhaps a new subsection of 'Implementation') might also be a good choice for most of the data. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
This first sounded like a reference related to things like the Ossetia ethnic troops discussed several months ago here. Given your latest comments, it seems like you are discussing the Russian Armed Forces in general with respect to the current ethnic demographics represented in their armed forces. It looks like the edit should first be considered for addition to the Wikipedia Russian Armed Forces article. If that is successful, then you might re-open a thread on this page again. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I guess you're right. It has more to do with the Russian Armed Forces as an organisation than the invasion as an event. I'll see if I can find a place to put this information. Incidentally, I've previously written about the participation of female soldiers on both sides at women in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, which shows an increase on the Ukrainian side but a sharp decrease on the Russian side. For some reason, there are pressures within the RF government, military and society to prevent women from serving in combat roles in which they could die, but to stimulate men from non-Russian minorities to serve in combat roles in which they could die. Curious patterns. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Add UK to "Supported by" for Ukraine. A senior general admitted

A senior general has admitted that UK troops are present in Ukraine performing covert operations

source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/royal-marines-deployed-on-high-risk-covert-operations-in-ukraine-r7b50gv3p RandomPotato123 (talk) 16:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

See RFC above. Slatersteven (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
I think it's a different issue. What they are suggesting is that we add "United Kingdom" to the "Belligerents" section of the infobox, under the heading "Supported by" - same as Belarus now for Russia. RS (Times) says The Royal Marines have taken part in covert operations in Ukraine, a senior general has admitted for the first time. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:57, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
We are discussing western support in the RFC. Slatersteven (talk) 17:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
But aren't we discussing a different kind of support there - money and weapons, political support, etc.? Sorry, but the RfC is rather long and I thought that that was the issue, and that the status quo was to include in the infobox only active military support, such as that provided by Belarus, which could also qualify as "participation in hostilities", i.e. being a "belligerent". Under that assumption, the UK should also be included like Belarus. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
yeah you're right. The RFC is more focused on weapons and ammunition support RandomPotato123 (talk) 17:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
OK then we do not use headlines, the body of the article does not say the UK was involved in combat operations. All it says is that "During both phases, the commandos supported other covert operations in an extremely sensitive environment and with a high level of political and military risk”. That could mean any number of things, but neither the General (nor the source) says they were party to the conflict. Nor does it even say they engaged Rusian forces, even indirectly. (Slatersteven talk) 17:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Was Belarus involved in actual combat operations in Ukraine? Slatersteven your argument sounds like activism to me. Clutching at straws so that this article continues to be the laughing stock of the world with "no one supporting Ukraine" in the infobox. There are memes about this article all over the internet. 2.138.200.92 (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. The report is vague and any interpretation of what it means by comparison with Belarus would be speculative and WP:OR - for now. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, in a sense as Russian forces attacked from their territory, so yes they were part of the conflict. And adding western support to the info box is what the RFC is about, this is about this specific issue. And also read wp:soap and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
What? NATO personnel are literally manning HIMARS in Ukraine as per reliable sources. No one is righting great wrongs. There is a specific issue with this article being in breach of policy because it is hijacked by activist editors. 2.138.200.92 (talk) 13:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The source does not say that. Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
You may be confusing an advisor watching/suggesting to a Ukrainian soldier with NATO personnel firing missiles. And as stated, the source DOES NOT say that. 74.37.206.38 (talk) 04:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 December 2022

Some words (Notably the words Million, and Billion) are missing captialization. 74.15.45.30 (talk) 13:53, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

The words 'million' and 'billion' do not receive capitalization except as sentence initial words. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:40, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 Not done: Per MOS:SENTENCECASE ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 18:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended confirmed protection and restrictions for non-ECP users on this talk page

Tamzin has identified at the RM above that non-ECP users are restricted in how they might post to a talk page of an article when there is ECP in place and specifically in that case, that they may not make edits to an move discussion. More fully, the restrictions are:

... non-extended-confirmed editors may not make edits to internal project discussions related to the topic area, even within the "Talk:" namespace. Internal project discussions include, but are not limited to, Articles for deletion nominations, WikiProjects, requests for comment, requested moves, and noticeboard discussions.

Some non-ECP users may have been unaware of the restriction and have made posts to restricted discussions on this page in good faith. If this is the case, such editors should probably consider striking their comments.

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.

The distinction between constructive comments and other project discussions that are not specifically listed may require some clarification. I would suggest we make a clear notification of the restriction as we have done at "Supported by" in the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know, the only discussions in talkspace that count as "internal project discussions" are RMs, RfCs, and content-review stuff like GANs. Would support placing some sort of clarifying banner on the RM. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 03:53, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

New articles are needed

— Baba Mica (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Disagree. There won't be enough Reliable Sourced material to make them more than stubs. Wait for history to be written. 74.37.206.38 (talk) 04:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Avoid combining two different localities into one single battle. Super Ψ Dro 21:06, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
I agree for Velyka Novosilovka and for Krasnohorivka because it is just an introduction and it is not yet known whether the fighting will flare up or die down after the Ukrainian counterattack, but I do not agree for the battles at Bilohorivka and at Pervomaiske and Vodiane because there is a lot of material for them and the fighting for Bilohorivka and Pervomaiske is very fierce and intense and much fiercer than for Pavlovka, which is 98% under the control of Russian forces. The Battle of Bilohorivka and the Battle of Pervomayskoe and Vodiane are almost identical in intensity to the currently fiercest and most topical battles of Bakhmut and Avdeyevka and Marinka. — Baba Mica (talk) 15:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The ultimate goal for fighting at Pervomaiske and Vodiane is to surround/defend Avdiivka. Fighting there should be included at the Battle of Avdiivka's article just like for example the Battle of Sievierodonetsk includes fighting at Syrotyne or Voronove. Super Ψ Dro 18:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
I agree, but maybe put the more relevant articles that have more news up be cause i think it might be a bit cumbersome. Ozziebro (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 December 2022

My first time doing this, I hope i did it correctly! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:B404:9B01:614F:D9D9:E2E8:B144 (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

In the Refugee crisis section under the Humanitarian heading, can you please add between Russia and the Czech Republic, that Britain has accepted 146 379 new refugees, as well as extending the ability to remain in the UK for about 40 000 Ukrainians already in the UK to a stay of up to 3 years, making it about 190 000 Ukrainians residing in the UK as of 21 June 2022, under the Ukraine Visas scheme, with broadly similar entitlements as the EU: three years residency and access to state welfare and services, as for a citizen.

In my opinion, our contribution to providing safe harbour is far less than Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe, but I believe deserves a mention!

Source (home office data): [1] 2A00:23C4:B404:9B01:614F:D9D9:E2E8:B144 (talk) 17:02, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done Finished the request.`~HelpingWorld~` (👽🛸) 04:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

edit request on 16 December 2022 MAP

Could someone add the moldova incident where a part of amissile hit them on the map because you guys added the Poland one [2]

 Not done for now: You need to be more specific with your request. Also when I checked it wasn't a intact missile it was the debris of one. `~HelpingWorld~` (👽🛸) 04:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 15 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. At the moment, there is clear consensus against moving this article. The opposers have given good reasons for their votes, primarily that this isn't the first invasion of Ukraine. Supporters have given relatively weak arguments, and these have not contributed much to the discussion, due to some WP:ILIKEIT comments not backed by policies or guidelines. Because of this, I have decided to close this discussion as not moved. Thanks DecafPotato for starting this requested move, and thanks to all participants, especially ones who striked comments from non-ECP users. (closed by non-admin page mover) echidnaLives - talk - edits 05:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine → Russian invasion of Ukraine – When this move was last suggested back in February, there were many (very valid) concerns about WP:RECENTISM and the like, but after close to a year, I think we need to re-evaluate. 1) "Russian invasion of Ukraine" redirects here, so its not as if it will change what people go to when they search the term. 2) People outlined that there have been previous invasions and occupations of Ukraine, but the new title doesn't change some people being confused. People recognize the previous invasions, such as the Ukrainian Front (1939) as a "Soviet invasion of Ukraine", for example, and the 2014 one is not a Russian invasion of Ukraine but a Russian invasion of Crimea. 3) Important events that are clearly the primary topic (see Invasion of Poland) have a title that could be more ambiguous. This article, however, already has a hatnote linking to other invasions of Ukraine if one is confused, and Invasion of Ukraine doesn't redirect here, as it should, given that it isn't the primary topic, but given that this is both the clear (in my opinion) WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term Russian invasion of Ukraine, AND the fact that it would probably have to be changed to "2022–23 Russian invasion of Ukraine" anyways, as it didn't end in 2022, I just think the move is a good choice. DecafPotato (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Russian invasion of Ukraine is a confusing name. I would propose changing the title to 2022-23 Russian invasion of Ukraine or 2022-?? Russian invasion of Ukraine, depending on how many years this war would last. 2001:8003:913E:5D01:850E:423C:81D8:F30D (talk) 11:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Oppose I support keeping the current title, or changing it to something like "Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present)" Iscargra (talk) 03:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Oppose | This full-scale invasion began in 2022, hence the name, leave it as it is. - DanTheMann15 (talk) 20:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - This isn't the first invasion of ukraine and would just cause confusion. Onegreatjoke (talk) 23:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Per WP:GS/RUSUKR, non-extendedconfirmed accounts may not participate in RMs in this topic area. (Action of a discussion participant, not an administrative action.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 19:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support Lucasmota0975 (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Support Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 22:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Support JonasTisell (talk) 01:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Support Kiwicomrade (talk) 02:50, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
What's with the wall of inactive accounts waking up to leave !votes here with no rationales?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't know. I've experienced this before. Sarrail (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

:Support Obviously this war will continue well into 2023 so it would be better to get rid of the "2022" part of the page title. DishonorableKnight (talk) 06:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)Strike comment of non-ECP user Cinderella157 (talk) 01:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Support. The rationale makes senses here, and I don't have any major reservations for making this page the primary topic. XTheBedrockX (talk) 02:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Note: looking over this again, I will disagree with the claim of Crimea not counting as an invasion of Ukraine. Crimea was unambiguously part of Ukraine at the time the annexation occurred, and 100% counts as an "invasion of Ukraine." In light of this, I'll echo the suggestion other users have made here and support a move to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present). XTheBedrockX (talk) 00:45, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
I didn't mean that Crimea wasn't part of Ukraine, lol. I promise I'm not a Kremlin propaganda account. What I meant is that it was just a smaller part of the country, not the whole thing. It's like if some foreign force invaded Florida. Yeah, it's indisputably an invasion of the United States, but saying the specific region that was invaded is more precise for that title specifically. DecafPotato (talk) 02:48, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Support Holidayruin (talk) 04:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Support. If it dives into 2024, which I don't want to think about it for now that could be a problem. But changing it to 2022-23...I'll go with the nom. Sarrail (talk) 04:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
@Sarrail it just says Russian invade Ukraine should be sound title but excluded year should be fine. 114.23.109.154 (talk) 07:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I meant, per nom. Sarrail (talk) 18:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Not the first invasion of Ukraine. See 2014's. Sarrail (talk) 18:43, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Support per nom PLATEL (talk) 06:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Note that these roughly 46 articles and these Templates and Categories that I don't want to count may need to also be renamed in the event of a move. The same rationale applies, though, in my opinion. DecafPotato (talk) 17:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose This would create confusion as we'd need to clarify that this article is only about the full-scale invasion which started in 2022, not the Russo-Ukrainian War which started in 2014. I don't like the framing that Russia's 2014 invasion wasn't an invasion of Ukraine. It wasn't a full-scale attempt at conquering the country, but it was very much an invasion of Ukraine.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:28, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
    How does this imply that the 2014 invasion wasn't an invasion of Ukraine? I just meant that "Russian invasion of Ukraine" more commonly refers to the full invasion of the country nearing one year long rather than the one-month invasion of a specific territory. DecafPotato (talk) 02:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    I was responding to what you said in your arguments in the original post: "and the 2014 one is not a Russian invasion of Ukraine but a Russian invasion of Crimea" I think saying that "the 2014 one is not a Russian invasion of Ukraine" does "imply that the 2014 invasion wasn't an invasion of Ukraine". In any case, the bigger issue is the confusion about the article's scope as this wasn't even the first invasion of the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War. After this RM closes, I think a different title like "Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022-Present)" or "2022-23 Russian invasion of Ukraine" would have better odds at reaching a consensus. But I would oppose removing the year entirely.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:33, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    See other comments: The 2014 invasion of Crimea was an invasion of Ukraine because it's obviously Ukrainian territory. I just meant that it wasn't an invasion of the whole country of Ukraine and thus "Russian invasion of Ukraine" wouldn't be a precise title for that article specifically. and I didn't mean that Crimea wasn't part of Ukraine, lol. I promise I'm not a Kremlin propaganda account. What I meant is that it was just a smaller part of the country, not the whole thing. It's like if some foreign force invaded Florida. Yeah, it's indisputably an invasion of the United States, but saying the specific region that was invaded is more precise for that title specifically. In any case, I can assure you that I did not mean that Crimea was not part of Ukraine, and I'm sorry if it came off that way, but that's not the purpose of this RM. DecafPotato (talk) 02:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Russia invaded Ukraine 8 years ago. Slatersteven (talk) 18:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - This isn't their first invasion, so a date in the title makes sense. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 18:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not just not the first Russian invasion of Ukraine, but not even the first of this war. If anything we should review the recentist consensus that saw Russian invasion of Ukraine targeted here, rather than to List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine, even though that list documents one invasion by the Tsardom of Russia, three by the Russian SFSR, one by Russian troops of the Soviet Union, and three (Crimea, Donbas, full invasion) by the Russian Federation. Note that the invasion of Donbas was widely referred to as the 'Russian invasion of Ukraine' until less than a year ago. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 19:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not sure if this really ought to be the primary topic, or if the notion is an actual example of WP:recentism (see List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine). Certainly the 1918, 1919, and 1920 invasions by Bolshevik Russia are historically very significant. It is nonsense to say the 2014 one is not a Russian invasion of Ukraine but a Russian invasion of Crimea: Crimea is in Ukraine and was invaded across the international border by army and airborne units; and Russia also invaded the Donbas region in 2014 and 2015 not only with various “deniable” forces but also with entire mechanized formations, especially during the Battle of Ilovaisk and Battle of Debaltseve. Whether it will have to be changed for 2023 anyways is an independent question, and not as yet determined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzajac (talk • contribs) 19:53, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
    See above, but when someone refers Russian invasion of Ukraine, they practically always the full invasion of the country that is coming up on one year rather than the one-month invasion of the Crimean Peninsula. I'm not trying to say that Russia did not invade Ukraine in 2014, they objectively did, but I'm saying that when someone wants to refer to the 2014 annexation of Crimea, they don't say the "Russian invasion of Ukraine", they say Crimea specifically. DecafPotato (talk) 03:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    That’s precisely recentism. From 1654 through February 24, 2022, it referred to several things but not that, and still does. The encyclopedic view has to consider what you might seek on Google News Search, but perhaps put more WP:DUE weight on someone researching early Modern or twentieth-century history, for example.
    So, for example, Annexation of Crimea is not necessarily what you assume it is.  —Michael Z. 04:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    Likewise, when people want to refer to the invasion of Donbas, they say the "War in Donbas" or "Russian invasion of Donbas". I'm not saying that Crimea or Donbas aren't Ukrainian, but you'll see very few people post-February 2022 use the term "Russian invasion of Ukraine" to refer to exclusively the invasions of Crimea and Donbas and not the full invasion of the entirety of the country. DecafPotato (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    Well, no. There were Russian invasions of Donbas in 1918, early 1919, late 1919, 2014, 2015, and 2022. The current War in Donbas has been ongoing for over eight years. You “see very few people” because among the most major world news is what is going on now and everyone’s talking about it. But the encyclopedia takes the longer view. It’s a reference, not a blog. It doesn’t give weight to this year just because people are talking about it this year. —Michael Z. 04:14, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    That's not what I meant. I meant that the 2014 invasion of Donbas is not referred to as a "Russian invasion of Ukraine". DecafPotato (talk) 02:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
    Well, you’re wrong. It’s most often stated as a “covert invasion of the Donbas” or the like. —Michael Z. 03:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. Either to just Russian invasion of Ukraine or Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present). Both work for me. Coltsfan (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Comment. Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present) sounds good also. However, omitting a year would be confusing. In Correct (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Support really don't like 2022-2023 (or even '24, etc...) Russian invasion of Ukraine as that doesn't make much sense. This seems like the best available title as it is clearly the PrimaryTopic.Yeoutie (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

How about the "Russo-Ukrainian War (2002)"? Slatersteven (talk) 09:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

This war did not start in 2002. Ribbet32 (talk) 16:46, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Typo I meant 2022. Slatersteven (talk) 18:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The war did not start in 2022. It started in 2014. A phase of the war started in 2022, and the suggested title with name and parenthetic disambiguation is unclear on that, and potentially contradicting that.  —Michael Z. 20:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

How about the "War in Ukraine (2022–present)"? BlueShirtz (talk) 18:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

This is a solution searching for a problem. There is nothing wrong with the current title, unless you're a Putin propagandist who wants it called "special military operation". Ribbet32 (talk) 19:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Not one user has even implied that idea, and you need to wp:agf. It will be a problem in (say) three weeks' time when we start adding material from 2023. Slatersteven (talk) 19:10, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
We already have an article on the wider war, this is about a phase in that war. Just like we have WW2, Western Front (World War II), Battle of France and so on. Slatersteven (talk) 17:59, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't want to call it a "special military operation," I suggested "War in Ukraine (2022–present)" because it seems like at least half of the news articles about this war refer to it as the "War in Ukraine" or "Putin's war in Ukraine," and it also has some title consistency with articles like War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) BlueShirtz (talk) 23:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. This request appears to be running with 10 oppose opinions and 5 support opinions. This request appears to also be malformed or poorly formed, with a parallel thread about renaming the article directly above it which is/was still open. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Oppose per Tamzin's comments. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:14, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Support There has been many small scale russian invasions yes, but this one is the main one. Wikiman92783 (talk) 14:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC) Strike comment by non-ECP user. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Support since next month is 2023 - Jjpachano (talk) 08:53, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

*:I am in Favour of that you proposed. 153.111.229.202 (talk) 21:06, 20 December 2022 (UTC) Strike comment by non-ECP user. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose The invasion did not start in 2022. Furthermore calling this the Russian Invasion would play into the Russian rhetoric that the occupied Crimea and Donbass are non negotiable. Viewsridge (talk) 09:22, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:I agreed with you that should follow year by year basis. Kiwicomrade (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC) Strike comment by non-ECP user. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:Support. It is almost the end of 2022, and the war is not ending yet, therefore it would be appropriate to change the name Thehistorianisaac (talk) 02:26, 21 December 2022 (UTC) Strike comment by non-ECP user. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose for 4 reasons:
A. The most important point is that the current name 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is actually fine. '2022' indicates when the current invasion began, thereby neatly distinguishing it from the far more limited military operations in Crimea and Donbas since 2014 (which technically are/were also "invasions"). Even if the current invasion doesn't end before 2022 is over (which it almost certainly won't, sadly), '2022' remains the correct starting year, and it's useful to keep that the same.
B. Dropping the year 2022 means risking all sorts of conflations with earlier Imperial Russian, Soviet or indeed Russian Federation invasions (namely, the 2014 invasion of Crimea and Donbas) of (what is now known as) Ukraine.
C. To those saying that "the Russian invasion of Ukraine already began in 2014": yes, you can semantically argue that, but until February 2022, only the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts were directly attacked; since February 2022, all oblasts of Ukraine have been attacked by the Russian Armed Forces and their allies, if not by ground or naval forces, then certainly by air forces / missile strikes. The operation that began in February 2022 is of a much greater geographical scale, and therefore adding '2022' is a very useful and necessary distinction. Whoever wants to write or read about the entire conflict since 2014 can always go to the articles Russo-Ukrainian War, War in Donbas (2014–2022), and Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation; that's what those pages are there for. I'm not in favour of expanding the scope of this article to include the whole 2014–Feb 2022 period just to make that semantical point, if only per WP:TOOLONG. Due to WP:OVERLAP with Russo-Ukrainian War, it would also essentially make 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine a WP:REDUNDANTFORK because they cover the exact same topic.
D. I am open to the alternative suggestions above that we can rename it 2022–2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine and change the second year every time it enters a new year before it ends, or Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present), but that makes things a bit messy, especially for linking to the article from other pages. Reason A is more compelling to keep the current title than the relatively small advantage that these alternative names would bring.
So on the whole, keeping the current name is best. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: Per WP:DETCON: Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy. And at WP:NHC: The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. Consequently, for comments here to carry weight, they should be made through the framework of WP:P&G and in this case, the policy at WP:AT. I would observe that a majority of responses here are made without reference to prevailing WP:P&G and are not supported by WP:AT or are otherwise irrelevant, as defined by WP:NHC. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

My proposal for the infobox

This is an inappropriate discussion fork in that there is an open RfC (#RfC on Western support to Ukraine) that directly relates and the proposal would presume the outcome of that RfC. For economy, I have also removed most of the parameters from the proposed infobox so that it mainly shows just the changes to the belligerent parameter that are proposed. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:20, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussions above are extremely long and sterile, they've led to nothing. I thought that directly offering a proposal might lead to more. --Synotia (talk) 11:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What do you folks think?

I made some effort to rank the aid chronologically ;) as we know, the list goes further than Czechia, but I thought it was enough to make a point. All countries would be listed in the collapsible list, similar to what can be seen in the Gulf War article.

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
Part of the Russo-Ukrainian War
Location
{{{place}}}
Status Ongoing (list of engagements · territorial control · timeline of events)
Belligerents

 Russia

Militarily supported by:
 Belarus[b]

Material support:
List
  Ukraine
Material support:
List
Commanders and leaders
Synotia (talk) 15:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I like the additions, but shouldn't there be more people under "Commanders and leaders"? —Biscuit-in-Chief :-) (ˈ[d̥͡soːg̊ʰ] – [ˈg̊ʰɒ̹nd̥͡sɹ̠ɪb̥s]) 15:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Oh well, I should have added that too... Synotia (talk) 15:49, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Probably not, it's been discussed here. —Biscuit-in-Chief :-) ([ˈd̥͡soːg̊ʰ] – [ˈg̊ʰɒ̹nd̥͡sɹ̠ɪb̥s]) 15:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
What are the criteria? Including commercial sales, or only donations? Only offensive lethal aid? Defensive? Non-lethal military aid? De-mining? Reconstruction? Humanitarian aid? Economic support?
The actual list is likely 50 to 70 states. Let’s see what it really looks like. See List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War.
EU aid is separate from aid by individual EU members so they should be listed (e.g., Hungary has refused to even let aid pass through its airspace). Has NATO actually provided aid as an organization?
I’m unconvinced:
  • I’m against the principle of putting states that conduct the normal peacetime activity of trade in military equipment under the “Belligerents” header. If “Material support” belongs in the infobox, then add a new heading to the infobox.
  • This is writing the article in the infobox. All of these are not in the article. Ask @Cinderella157 to interpret WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE for you.
  • This is too long for the infobox.
 —Michael Z. 17:04, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I should have been more specific – I only included here countries who sent military equipment in response to the full-scale invasion. Synotia (talk) 17:08, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-june-2022/statistics-on-ukrainians-in-the-uk
  2. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/world/europe/moldova-russia-missile-debris-war.html
  3. ^ Lister, Tim; Kesa, Julia (24 February 2022). "Ukraine says it was attacked through Russian, Belarus and Crimea borders". Kyiv: CNN. Archived from the original on 24 February 2022. Retrieved 24 February 2022.
  4. ^ Murphy, Palu (24 February 2022). "Troops and military vehicles have entered Ukraine from Belarus". CNN. Archived from the original on 23 February 2022. Retrieved 24 February 2022.
  5. ^ Rodionov, Maxim; Balmforth, Tom (25 February 2022). "Belarusian troops could be used in operation against Ukraine if needed, Lukashenko says". Reuters. Archived from the original on 25 February 2022. Retrieved 25 February 2022.
  6. ^ "Missiles launched into Ukraine from Belarus". BBC News. 27 February 2022. Archived from the original on 2 March 2022. Retrieved 27 February 2022.
  7. ^ Karmanau, Yuras; Heintz, Jim; Isachenkov, Vladimir; Litvinova, Dasha (1 March 2022). "Ukrainian Official Says Belarus Has Joined the War, as Russia Pummels Kharkiv". Associated Press. Kyiv: TIME. Archived from the original on 2 March 2022. Retrieved 1 March 2022.
  8. ^ [1]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Russian invasion of Ukraine" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Russian invasion of Ukraine and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 26 § Russian invasion of Ukraine until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. DecafPotato (talk) 23:59, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

New

Has there been discussion at all of moving the map into the article and having pictures of the war represented in the Infobox instead? Aaron106 (talk) 01:34, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of.`~HelpingWorld~` (👽🛸) 05:15, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The map is up to date. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:40, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Iran as Supporting State

Under belligerents, Iran should be labeled as a supporting state considering its reported presence in Occupied Crimea training RUS forces + its significant supply of Shahed suicide drones, to Russia. If Belarus counts, then Iran should too. 2604:7A40:111:C30:BCAF:AC82:5B1A:1AE7 (talk) 02:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

This has been, and is currently being, discussed on this talk page currently. King keudo (talk) 13:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
What about North Korea, given that it has supplied weapons to Wagner for use in Ukraine? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:7F3C (talk) 02:56, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
Same applies. And please sign your comments. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:35, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
There is already an open thread on this discussion, as King Keudo has stated. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

International Legion

Should we add the International Legion of Territorial Defence of Ukraine at the side with Ukraine. I think they are kind of important.

Daeva Trạc (talk) 04:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Is this not just a unit in the Ukrainian army? Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Agreement with Slatersteven. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:12, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I thought it is a voluntary army with soldiers from many countries (including Russia). Daeva Trạc (talk) 19:09, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

The International Legion of Territorial Defence of Ukraine is a unit of the Territorial Defense Forces (Ukraine), which is a military reserve component of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. —Michael Z. 19:44, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


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