Talk:Russian Orthodoxy

defending ethiopian orthodox church from Ethiopian governmet body trying to destroy orthodox church

As the topic describes we Ethiopian need our spiritual related church and governments your support on defendig orthodox church from devil thinking and doing devil job to destroy Christianity from our country.

                       Thank you! God bless you!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.189.243.5 (talk) 21:21, 9 February 2023 (UTC) 

Ethnic dioceses in the OCA

I would dispute the claim that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA isn't under the Russian Orthodox umbrella. Sure, it isn't by historical origin, but I haven't came across a parish or monastery that felt uniquely Bulgarian. It's been largely Russified liturgically. I can't say the same for the Romanian diocese, and I have no idea how the Albanian diocese does things, but I would consider removing the Bulgarian Diocese from the exception. Vypr (talk) 04:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Churches that use Church Slavonic

We read in the introduction to the article that Russian Orthodoxy applies to "churches within the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, whose liturgy is or was traditionally conducted in Church Slavonic language."
1. Shouldn't this list include also the Patriarchates of Serbia and Bulgaria that still retain some use of Church Slavonic? And the Church of Macedonia coming out of Serbian Church?
2. Though they moved from Church Slavonic several centuries ago, shouldn't it also include the Romanian Church?
3. Though they have a millenary tradition of their own, when the Church of Georgia was absorbed by the ROC, Church Slavonic was imposed until its autocephaly. Should it be included?
Coquidragon (talk) 17:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Moving article to "Slavic Orthodox churches"

As stated in its first sentence, this article deals with "body of several churches within the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, whose liturgy is or was traditionally conducted in Church Slavonic language". This grouping of local Churches that use the Church Slavonic is presented as comprising "Russian Orthodoxy". I think this is a misnomer. Please by all means do correct me if I am wrong, but not even one of the sources currently existing in the article use "Russian Orthodoxy" as a term that denotes the Eastern Orthodox Churches that use the Church Slavonic. On the contrary, "Russian Orthodoxy" is a term (unsurprisingly) used to denote the Eastern Orthodox presence in Russia, while, on the other hand, there are quite a few secondary scholarly sources that present the churches using Church Slavonic not as "Russian Orthodoxy", but as "Slavic Orthodox" (and quite reasonably, if I may say so). I quote results of a cursory Google books search:

"In many ways, [387] Church Slavonic came to play a role as an inter-Slavic literary medium and official vehicle, the same way as did Latin in central and western Europe, and Greek in the Byzantine orbit. In particular-with the qualified exception of the earliest period (in Moravia, Pannonia, and Bohemia during the ninth/eleventh centuries) and the coastal Croatian region from Istria to central Dalmatia-Church Slavonic became the shared cultural language of the Slavic Orthodox community."

Henrik Birnbaum, "The vernacular languages of East Central Europe in the Medieval period", in: Balázs Nagy and Marcell Sebők (eds), The Man of Many Devices, Who Wandered Full Many Ways: Festschrift in Honor of János M. Bak (Budapest: CEU Press, 1999), pp. 386-7)

"Church Slavonic is still the liturgical language of the Russian Orthodox Church and has practically a sacred status, represented the conservation of tradition and community with Slavic Orthodox brethren in the Orthodox Slavic world."

Per-Arne Bodin, "Church Slavonic in Russian dystopias and utopias", in: Mikhail Suslov and Per-Arne Bodin (eds), The Post-Soviet Politics of Utopia: Language, Fiction and Fantasy in Modern Russia (London: Bloomsbury/IB Tauris, 2019), p. 204

"The use of Church Slavonic had always been a salient feature of the Slavic Orthodox churches, and it was perhaps the most important symbol of Ruthenian identity in Lithuania and Poland."

Julia Verkholantsev, The Slavic Letters of St. Jerome: The History of the Legend and Its Legacy, Or, How the Translator of the Vulgate Became an Apostle of the Slavs (De Kalb, IL: Northern Illinois University Press, 2014), p. 135

"The cases of Serbia and Bulgaria are particularly important, because they are Slavic Orthodox churches that share the Church Slavonic patrimony, and therefore are the closest in history and ethos to the Russian Orthodox Church."

Brian P. Bennett, Religion and Language in Post-Soviet Russia (London/NY: Routledge, 2011), p. 80

"From the late 9th century on there is a special common Church Slavonic for the Slavic Orthodox Churches (shaped by Cyril and his brother Method [...]"

Leopold Auburger, "Classical Language/Ritual Language" in: Ulrich Ammon, Norbert Dittmar, Klaus J. Mattheier and Peter Trudgill (eds), Sociolinguistics / Soziolinguistik: An International Handbook of the Science of Language and Society / Ein internationales Handbuch zur Wissenschaft von Sprache und Gesellschaft, volume 1 (Berlin/NY: De Gruyter, 1987), p. 363

"While for reasons of a largely political nature all other Slavs within the Western Church embraced the Latin liturgy and letters, and the Slavic Orthodox churches of Rus', Serbia, and Bulgaria used the Cyrillic alphabet to record their ecclesiastical books, the Slavonic rite-observing Coratian clergy continued continued to write in Glagolitic as late as the eighteenth century."

Julia Verkholantsev, "Croatian Monasticism and Glagolitic Tradition: Glagolitic Letters at Home and Abroad" in: Ines Angeli Murzaku (ed.), Monasticism in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Republics (London/NY: Routledge, 2016), p. 43

"While Old Church Slavonic is the liturgical language of most Slavic Orthodox churches, and Katherevousa that of the Greek Orthodox, the community language (Serbian, Macedonian, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek [Dimotiki], etc.) is the medium of sermons and social interaction."

Michael Clyne, Community Languages: The Australian Experience (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991), p. 133.

I think it follows that per WP:COMMONNAME this article should be moved to a new title, namely "Slavic Orthodox churches". Ashmedai 119 (talk) 05:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Ashmedai 119 Hi, per a request at WP:RM/TR, I have reverted your move. If you want to open a formal discussion to move this, feel free to peruse the instructions at WP:RSPM (or ping me if you'd like me to open one for you), be sure to reference your message above so participants can consider it. ASUKITE 16:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 6 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Merge to Russian Orthodox Church. Consensus to merge to Russian Orthodox Church (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 04:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

---

Russian Orthodoxy → Slavic Orthodox churches – I am copying from a previous comment of mine in this very talk page: "As stated in its first sentence, this article deals with "body of several churches within the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, whose liturgy is or was traditionally conducted in Church Slavonic language". This grouping of local Churches that use the Church Slavonic is presented as comprising "Russian Orthodoxy". I think this is a misnomer. Please by all means do correct me if I am wrong, but not even one of the sources currently existing in the article use "Russian Orthodoxy" as a term that denotes the Eastern Orthodox Churches that use the Church Slavonic. On the contrary, "Russian Orthodoxy" is a term (unsurprisingly) used to denote the Eastern Orthodox presence in Russia, while, on the other hand, there are quite a few secondary scholarly sources that present the churches using Church Slavonic not as "Russian Orthodoxy", but as "Slavic Orthodox" (and quite reasonably, if I may say so)." I've quoted some cases of scholarly sources discussing the Slavic Orthodox churches in my previous comment, which I am not copying here to save space, but please do consult them above. To repeat myself, "I think it follows that per WP:COMMONNAME this article should be moved to a new title, namely "Slavic Orthodox churches"." Ashmedai 119 (talk) 03:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The scope of the article is the Russian Orthodox Church and churches related to it, which is what the body covers. This for example includes churches that broke away from it but are still part of Russian Orthodoxy, for example the Old Believer churches. If the lead is inaccurate, then it should be corrected instead. This is a completely different term with a different meaning. Mellk (talk) 04:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Mellk, Ever since this page stopped being merely a disambiguation page in March 2016, its first sentence stated as its object "the body of several Churches within the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, whose liturgy is or was traditionally conducted in Church Slavonic language.". As demonstrated by the sources quoted in my previous comment, this "body of Churches" is not referred to in contemporary English literature as "Russian Orthodoxy", but as "Slavic Orthodox churches".

You now state that this article is about "the Russian Orthodox Church and churches related to it" including "churches that broke away from it but are still part of Russian Orthodoxy". This is truly puzzling to me for two reasons. First, what you state is rather vague. "Churches related to" the Russian Orthodox Church include at least almost all Eastern Orthodox churches, which are or have been in eucharistic communion with the Russian Orthodox Church. So, could you please clarify what kind of relations you refer to that, in your view, make a church a member of the body of "Russian Orthodoxy"?

Second, I am wondering: do you imply that this group of churches, that you posit as "Russian Orthodoxy", includes e.g. the Orthodox Church of Ukraine? This sound to me eerily similar to the doctrine of the Russian world.

In any case, could you please cite a considerable enough number of English-language sources (i) demonstrating that the term "Russian Orthodoxy" is current in contemporary English-language scholarly literature to define a body of Churches and also (ii) elucidating which churches are considered members of this body along with (iii) the criteria used for membership in this body of Churches? It seems to me that all three matters should be addressed, if an article entitled "Russian Orthodoxy" is to be in this encyclopedia. Looking forward to your response. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 13:03, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

See below. Mellk (talk) 10:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Russia, WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard, and WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 22:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I'm inclined to wonder if this article should have remained a disambiguation page. If the move goes through, Russian Orthodoxy should probably resume that role. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. There could be a larger discussion about how these pages are organized, but the proposed change seems like it would pretty starkly go against WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ASTONISH. The ngrams here aren't even close, "Russian Orthodox" and "Russian Orthodoxy" are very common terms in church circles, academia, and lay parlance, while "Slavic Orthodox" is an extremely niche and unfamiliar term. I'm a pretty well-read Christian myself, and if I got redirected to "Slavic Orthodox churches" while searching for Russian Orthodoxy, I'd be very confused. I can definitely see the problems with the current title, especially as it relates to its current content, but this would be a very wrongheaded change. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Garnet Moss, I think that the mere existence of a phrase is not by itself enough to warrant an encyclopedia article. Ever since "Russia Orthodoxy" stopped being a disambiguation page, it purports that the phrase is used to refer to the "body of several churches within the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, whose liturgy is or was traditionally conducted in Church Slavonic language". Are there any contemporary credible sources that support this? I doubt this and, given the sources I have previously quoted, I proposed that this body of several churches is called in contemporary English-language literature "Slavic Orthodox churches". Do you question this? If yes, could you please refer readers of this conversation to contemporary scholary sources corroborating the claim and explain how you account with the sources I've quoted in my previous comment? Moreover, sources that I have in consideration (and I could quote relevant passages if you 'ld like me to) seem to use the term only to refer to the Russian Orthodox Church in the present or in the past. Finally, I am wondering what changes to the article's content, including its very first sentence, you would propose, taking into account the problems that you perceive existing. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 06:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  You can review ru:Русское православие. It is not strictly about ROC. Mellk (talk) 07:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  I don't have Russian, but the mechanically-translated-to-English version of the Russian Wikipedia's article that I read (ru:Русское православие) does not describe "Russian Orthodoxy" as a body of churches, much less as the body of Churches using the Church Slavonic as liturgical language. Unless I am missing something, it presents "Russian Orthodoxy" as "a type of Byzantine Orthodoxy" or as "“a “Russified” version of Eastern (Byzantine) Christianity, enriched with ancient Russian religious and ritual heritage”." In other words, it defines "Russian Orthodoxy" as a variation of Eastern Orthodoxy under the influence of national/local peculiarities.

  The Russian article also states that "The concept of “Russian Orthodoxy”, both in theological and secular literature, is most often identified with the Russian Orthodox Church", although the author to which readers of this sentence are referred to disagrees with this identification and argues that it "in fact also includes various associations that broke away from it at different times, including Old Believers, Renovationists, the Russian Church Abroad (during the its separation from the Moscow Patriarchate), “true Orthodox” (Russian tradition) and the like. Each of these church structures considers itself an integral part of Russian Orthodoxy." With regards to the author, it was said in the article's talk page last summer, when the article stopped being a redirection to ru:Православие в России ("Orthodoxy in Russia"): "He does not seem to return to this topic further. This statement is extremely strange" and that "Gordienko is generally a rather superficial author." To base the creation of an article on the writing of one "superficial" author who acknowledges that his use of the term in question in a language other than English is not aligned with the way it is "most often" used is unwarranted and, I think, would be in violation of WP:POVFORK.

  Even if one is to accept that "Russian Orthodoxy" as defined in the Russian Wikipedia's article, i.e. the version of Eastern Orthodoxy peculiar to Russia, is a topic that should form an encyclopedia article, this would not negate that the current article should be amended to remove unsourced statements . But, I still do not see how and why the supposed existence of local peculiarities in the practices and/or teachings of the Orthodox Church[es] that exist in Russia would mean that Russian Orthodoxy should not become a redirect to Russian Orthodox Church (with which per the Russian article this phrase is "most often identified"), or to History of the Russian Orthodox Church (which includes the various spit-off Churches) or just Christianity in Russia. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 09:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  I did not contribute to this article, but if we want to remove unsourced parts, then that is possible. If we want to merge, then this should be a separate discussion. The proposed title is for a different topic.

  "Russian Orthodoxy refers to one branch of Eastern Orthodox Christianity and the religious traditions, practices, and believers identified with it. The term can comprise different articulations of the Russian Orthodox tradition over time... Within Russian Orthodoxy, different and also rival definitions of various aspects of Orthodoxy... are the norm... The Russian Orthodox Church, by contrast, refers to the concrete historical, organizational and ecclesiastical institutionalization of this branch...".[1] Mellk (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Mellk, removing unsourced claims is not a possibility, but a necessity (see: Wikipedia:No original research). I have thus proceeded to remove from the article dubious unsourced claims and sections and replace the (unverified) introductory paragraph with content based on the reference you provided. Contrary to what has been argued in this talk page and in the article, the book clearly links "Russian Orthodoxy" with the Russian Orthodox Church, the latter being used to refer just to the institutional and the former to doctrinal and cultic aspects. The book's blurb seems to also clear on this, stating it is a survey of "the ways in which the Russian Orthodox Church has negotiated its relationship with the secular state, with other religions, and with Western modernity from its beginnings until the present". I have thus also removed the unverified list of Churches that existed in the article. After these changes to the article's content, which render the article one having a new subject (and not dealing, as it happened until now, with a "body of churches"), I don't think the article should be moved to the title "Slavic Orthodox churches".

  Having said that, I am still wondering: does the definition you quote from p. 5 of this book warrant the creation of an encyclopedia article distinct from the one about the Russian Orthodox Church? It presents "Russian Orthodoxy" as the combined treatment of "the religious traditions, practices, and believers" ranging from "forms of lived religion to theology" identified with the Russian Orthodox Church through time, the latter being taken to refer only to a "historical, organizational and ecclesiastical institutionalization". Yet, the article on the Russian Orthodox Church already contains sections on both "Worship and practices" and its "Membership", i.e. its believers. Do these topics demand a treatment large enough to warrant the creation of a split off? I am not sure about this, though it might be the case. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 12:50, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  They are clearly considered to be distinct. Old Believers etc. are not affiliated with the ROC. Mellk (talk) 08:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  There seems to be a consensus about what is to be done for the time being, but I would like to note for the future that, per sources quoted and cited above, the concept of "Russian Orthodoxy" is "most often" identified with the Russian Orthorox Church, as the scholar who thinks otherwise recognizes, and even he extends its scope of reference only to cover churches that broke off from the Russian Orthodox Church and consider themselves as representatives of the same tradition, not to all Churches using Church Slavonic, which was being argued in the article. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 05:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - no such grouping in literature. - Altenmann >talk 15:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  P.S. Cleanup by an independent eye is a good idea. - Altenmann >talk 15:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I would oppose since the current title is not very good, but the proposed move isn't any better. AVNOJ1989 (talk) 16:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe just merge and done with it?

A have a radical suggestion would make the "move" discussion moot: merge/redirect to Russian Orthodox Church, because "Russian_Orthodoxy" article is basically a chaotic summary of "Russian Orthodox Church", in fact, WP:FORK. - Altenmann >talk 17:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I'm good with this solution. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  • Soft support - I think “Russian Orthodoxy” is an article which could exist, and probably should exist, discussing the cross-denominational features of this religious tradition… but that’s not what this page is, I agree. Assuming no one’s willing to take on a major overhaul, this merge would be better than either the proposed name change or the status quo. Garnet Moss (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support merge. Recent changes have corrected the page but also rendered it redundant. Srnec (talk) 04:17, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  Support for turning "Russian Orthodoxy" to a redirection to Russian Orthodox Church or History of the Russian Orthodox Church. As stated above, after edits made to the article, that no longer misleadingly present it as an article about the body of Churches using Church Slavonic, I am generally in agreement with Garnet Moss, though I am not sure what s/he means when referring to "cross-denominational features". There are other articles that discuss Eastern Orthodoxy in Albania, Eastern Orthodoxy in Montenegro, Eastern Orthodoxy in Turkey and I suppose a similar article Eastern Orthodoxy in Russia/Russian Orthodoxy could conceivably be created, but until then Russian Orthodoxy could be at least pro tempore turned into a redirect in manner similar to Eastern Orthodoxy in Russia. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 06:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  I just mean that “Russian Orthodoxy” is a term for a religious tradition which exists in the Russian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of America, ROCOR, etc. as well as having a strong influence on other Eastern Orthodox churches, as well as Old Believers and such. “Russian Orthodoxy” is not the church, it’s the traditions and practices, which are shared by several independent/autocephalous churches. Anyway, yes I think we’re of one mind about this. Garnet Moss (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

• Weak support with the current state of the article. Perhaps at some point someone can write something better since this is a notable topic. Mellk (talk) 08:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Altenmann, Pbritti, Srnec, Ashmedai 119, and Mellk: Notify editors who supported a merge to implement it. BilledMammal (talk) 04:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)