Talk:Islamism/Archive 5

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A Muslim's view on Islamism

Islamism can have many uses. Radical islamism could refer to the ideas of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood. Regular islamism refers to any political system, which uses muslim standards. The way western nations usually use christian standards. Islamic standars include modest dress, anti-abortion, Islamic economics, islamic-style court system, etc. Several examples would be nations such as Libya, the Islamic Republic of Iraq and Afghanistan, Malaysia, etc.

Libya is pan-Arab and pan-Islamic and is run by a military dictator. Libya isn't a good example of an Islamic country, but the Islamic Republic of Iran is a good example. Though, they do have that position of Supreme Leader which is against the Islamic principle of democracy... Armyrifle 15:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What Islamic principle of Democracy? Wherever Islamism rules, democratic processes like free elections and such are curtailed. Jon3800 (talk) 20:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The Prophet was a reformer & he was never a 'rebel'

The article states absolutely incorrectly '..the role the Prophet Muhammad played as "rebel" during his time in Medina:[14]...' The prophet never rebelled in Makkah or Madina. Even when the Muslims were given the worst torture in Makkah for 13 years & even when they were boycotted by Qoreish for 3 yrs in Shaab Abi Taalib until they had to revert to eating tree leaves to survive, the Prophet never instructed any one to attack his torturer. At every available opportunity he would try to deliver God's message to the tormentors of Muslims peacefully with complete forbearance. The question of being 'rebel' is totally out of place as regards Madina. It did never apply there, as the state of Madina was formed by the Pledge of Aqba between the Prophet & the two tribes of Madina namely: Awas & Khazraj & the balance three tribes became party to the state by the latter Saheefa of Madina agreed & signed in 80 clauses clarifying everyone's freedom & obligation to the state of Madina. He was the head of a sovereign city-state there, so case of 'rebel' absolutely did not apply there. It is not POV, it is a lie. A deliberate attempt on part of the writer to misinform the reader distorting real facts & inventing 'fictional facts' for some ulterior motive to dis-inform.This should be clarified as such, so that an uninformed reader is not mislead.ILAKNA (talk) 04:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The quote is from a notable historian. I don't think you should assume rebel is a pejoritve term. Muhammad was against the leadership of Mecca and in particular its practice of allowing the worship of other gods besides Allah. To say he was a rebel does imply he wanted bloodshed and destruction. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Islamism in Contemporary Usage

Apologies if this seems/is too involved, but I wish to put this debate to rest so we can move on.

A search on [[1]] for “Islamism” yields, yielded 2,930,000 hits. Here are the first of these, in the order in which they appear:

1. The wikipedia article
2. [[2]] - “Group of ideologies in Islam that want to use the Sharia to its full extent, meaning that secular forms of governments and institutions are considered foreign to a true Muslim society.”
3. [[3]] - We know his point of view
4. [[4]] - “Martin Kramer: It is Islam reformulated as a modern ideology. Whereas Islam was traditionally conceived as being in a class with Judaism and Christianity, Islamism is a response to ideologies that emerged in the modern West—communism, socialism, or capitalism. Graham Fuller: Islamism is largely synonymous with political Islam—an effort to draw meaning out of Islam applicable to problems of contemporary governance, society, and politics. John Esposito: Islam interpreted as an ideology to support political and social activism. Daniel Pipes: I think we're all pretty much in agreement.”
5. [[5]] - Pipes again
6. [[6]] - A google list of other articles, including Bazm-e-Tolu-e-Islam and Tanzeem-e-Islami, who I imagine would follow you in calling their ideology merely “Islam”. Point being that google uses the term to organize by category.
7. [[7]] - “Islamism is a totalitarian ideology adhered to by Muslim extremists (e.g. the Taliban, Hamas and Osama bin Laden). It is considered to be a distortion of Islam. Many Islamists engage in terrorism in pursuit of their goals.” It also includes this quote: “It is important to emphasize: Islamism is not Islam. On the contrary, it is a perversion of Islam. The traditional religion practiced by most Muslims is tolerant and moderate, an ancient faith with a rich tradition of scholarship. Islam places great emphasis on virtue, charity, and living according to God's will; it is not at all incompatible with political democracy or religious pluralism.” -Jeff Jacoby of Boston Globe
8. [[8]] - Apparently defunct.
9. [[9]1] - “A Sufi response to political Islamism”
10. [[10]] - The Encyclopedia of the Orient again.
11. [[11]] - An article entitled “Understanding Islamism”, by Rami G. Khouri.
12. [[12]] - “A Manifesto against Islamism” by Michelle Malkin.
13. [[13]] - “Understanding Islamism” from the International Crisis Group

etc.

Note that everyone is using this term in almost precisely the same way. Were we to list and link to all the sources that use it, it would be unacceptably long.

In sum, while it is obvious that it is of fairly recent origin in English, supplanting “Islamic fundamentalism” as we’ve noted, and that Daniel Pipes has played a role in popularizing it, Islamism is at this point a term in the English language with a specific and fairly invariable definition. Whether this is “politically incorrect” as you assert is beside the point. As this is an English-language page, we should use it accordingly without unwarranted hedging.

As I recall, this was the heart of the dispute which led to the edit war, and the article being blocked to begin with. This kind of thing should not have been allowed to hold us up.

So I propose that we accept contemporary Englsh usage for what it is, and get to work on the article.Timothy Usher 02:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the last comment I will be writing for the next two days. I have school and other things to do. this dos not mean I will be disappearing, I am just taking a two day break and will be back to talk later. On a side note, my point is that the previous article was just labeling certain groups of people as being Islamist and was omcpletely unsourced. I am just saying the term Islamism should be defined using sources, were it came from, and how it is used today. The labeling of certain groups as being Islamist should not be done. This article should talk about the term, NOT LABEL PEOPLE. I will post up stuff from the actual article when I return, too show you what I am talking about. MuslimsofUmreka 02:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.Timothy Usher 04:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

To end this dispute, tell me if you atleast agree with this

I keep starting my homework but then feel compelled o go near my computer, bu whatever. I am figure that it would be better to end this dispute now. I am willing to end this dispute if you all agree with the following terms.

1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims

2.) Cite your sources. In the original article before the edit war it stated:

Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.

The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.

Instead the article should start as the following:

The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source

However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunnah. Daniel Pipes defines the term as, "Islamism is an ideology that demands man's complete adherence to the sacred law of Islam and rejects as much as possible outside influence, with some exceptions (such as access to military and medical technology). It is imbued with a deep antagonism towards non-Muslims and has a particular hostility towards the West. It amounts to an effort to turn Islam, a religion and civilization, into an ideology." source

Others have defined it differently though. "Islamism is a totalitarian ideology adhered to by Muslim extremists (e.g. the Taliban, Hamas and Osama bin Laden). It is considered to be a distortion of Islam. Many Islamists engage in terrorism in pursuit of their goals.” It also includes this quote: “It is important to emphasize: Islamism is not Islam. On the contrary, it is a perversion of Islam. The traditional religion practiced by most Muslims is tolerant and moderate, an ancient faith with a rich tradition of scholarship. Islam places great emphasis on virtue, charity, and living according to God's will; it is not at all incompatible with political democracy or religious pluralism.” -Jeff Jacoby of Boston Globe" (This is what Timothy Usher posted above)

In conclusion, add citations and sources such as that and keep the tone of the article neutral as possible. If you agree to these terms, I am willing to end my side of teh dispute but only if you all agree to the above. Let me know what you think. MuslimsofUmreka 03:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Um. This is no good. Leading off with a dictionary definition is third-grade level composition, and obviously the fact that the term is controversial should not have primacy over the meaning of the term itself. Also, Pipes did not invent the term and you give him undue emphasis without even bothering to introduce his relevance to the reader. Finally, undifferentiated strings of quotes do not really make for good reading and should not form the balance of the introduction. In other words, your writing style is atrocious. Frankly, I think the older text was fine, even on the basis of the critiques you made. I would suggest keeping it as it is. Can I get a what what? Graft 04:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Quite right.Timothy Usher 04:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesnt have to be in those exact words, but somewhat similar. I should have said 'similar to' instead of 'should start as the following.' So as of now, no final agreement has been reached and this dispute is continuing. Okay, we'll work on another solution. MuslimsofUmreka 04:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

MOU,

“1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims”

I agree that a clarification is in order for those who do not realize this by now, above the article as you suggest. However, I propose the text, “This article is about the political philosophy Islamism. For an article on the religion Islam, see Islam.” Or the like.

The difference hinges on this: the page should not be about “Islamism” as a term, but Islamism as a historical phenomenon. We can mention the origins of the term, debate about it, etc., but this ought not and must not be the focus or theme of the article.

Re the original intro:

“Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.”

I don’t know why triumphalism is being mentioned here. That sentence should go. Other than that, though we can quibble over points of style, the general thrust seems correct.

“The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.”

Again, the last sentence seems out of place, and factually inaccurate to boot. For example, Palestinian terrorist organizations are not automatically called Islamist, even though the bulk of their membership is at least nominally Muslim, unless they happen to also be Islamist as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

A section on the relationship between Islamism and terrorism is appropriate, but not in the “term” paragraph.

Re your replacement:

“The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source”

The sentence “The term Islamism is controversial” should open the second or third paragraph, as it did to begin with. Similarly with definitions from various dictionaries.

“However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunah.”

Considered to have deviated by who? Many users of the term have no opinion on this, while others are split between saying Islamism is not true Islam, and others who like you say that Islam mandates Islamism.

I’d agree with you that in the quoted instances, there are additional POV’s on whether Islamism is or equivalent to “true Islam” that should definitely not be stated as fact on wikipedia, as we are in no position to issue rulings in this regard. However, it is clear that they are taking the common definition as the starting point for their assertions.

There is seemingly no real dispute here, beyond your objection to contemporary terminology and usage, and the false assumptions you believe underlie it. This is not the place for that debate. It’s quite a shame that the article was editted, and then frozen, for these reasons.Timothy Usher 04:38, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright. As long as the article remains neutral and cites sources and gives information from all sides, I am cool with this page being unlocked. An administrator can unlock it now. I am gonna stay away from editing this page and let others do it. I just ask that this article remain neutral and everything be cited. MuslimsofUmreka 12:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can no longer contribute to this forum due to a lack of enforcement of WP:NPA, WP:CIVILITY, WP:SOCK, etc. You, your sock puppets (though at least you don't use these on the talk page), and user Hrana98/24.../etc. are free to hack away.Timothy Usher 12:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as at least one of the abusive sock puppets was shown the door - thanks Tom - I am back. Let's see how this works.Timothy Usher 01:20, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Dont Understand

If there is one thing that I do not understand is why are people like Timothy, Kyaa the catlord and others so interested in editing this page when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Kyaa the catlord lives in calorado according to his or her page and i'm certain there are NO Muslims in that state and there is no threat of terrorism there. The other people know nothing about Islam, nor are they Muslim so I do not see why this topic is so important to them. It doesnt effect them in anyway. The only reason I think of is that they are racist and want to take every oppurtunity too defame Muslims and make them look bad. Please explain to me why this topic is os important to you? MuslimsofUmreka 19:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Everyone is welcome to edit any Wikipedia article, regardless of their interests. Don't call people a racist because they're interested in this topic. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 19:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Katefan0. Your remarks risk offending people, and are not relevant. Please use this page to talk about the work at hand, and not the people who choose to do it. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, not that it matters, but all these Colorado mosques are probably going to be disappointed that you don't believe in their existence. Graft 22:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hahahahah. No really. Hahahahah. Thanks MOU, you made my day. Kyaa the Catlord 23:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Before he was saying if you move to Ohio youre not a real muslim anymore, maybe thats also true if you move to colorado? I think we should probably wait until he comes back cause he is the one here who knows about these things not us.67.188.110.197

Thats not what I said earlier. I was giving an example of something. Here is what I said, "For example, say you grew up in New York City. Then you move out of New York City to a land far away like Ohio or something. Even though you no longer live in NYC, you label yourself as a new yorker. Then you in turn label those who still live in NYC as extreme New Yorkers. " I was giving this as an example of what modern Muslims are. I was saying that Modern Muslims no longer practice Islam and then they label those who practice Islam as extreme Muslims. This was an analogy I gave with Ohio. The anology was that if a new yorker moves out to ohio, then he no longer is a new yorker. But for some reason he keeps labeling himself as a new yorker. Then he labels those who still live in New York as extreme New Yorkers because they still live in New York. Do you see the analogy? Modern Muslims label those Muslims who still practice Islam as Extreme Muslims. I hope this clears it up. MuslimsofUmreka 00:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

MuslimsofUmreka, I sincerely do not believe you're capable of editing this topic in a non-POV fashion. You clearly have a strong opinion regarding nonmuslims who review this particular topic. The fact that you're questioning one's motives for being here on the basis of their own religious following or location is enough for me to see that you cannot address these discussions here without carrying in your personal baggage. Amibidhrohi 03:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I was born and raised a Muslim and I know from personal experience how that term is used to discriminate against people. Though you maybe correct that I have strong POV with this issue. There are many concerns that need to be discussed with the article. We all agree that the original version, the one before the major edits was no good becuase it lacked sources, citations and it had a strong anti-Islamic bias and was strongly POV from the other side. The term is very broadly applied and it is defined differently by diferent people. The prior version of the article focused on degrading Islam. One thing that is not understood by anybody here is that ISLAM IS INHERENTLY A POLITICAL RELIGION. ISLAM IS A RELIGION MEANT TO BE APPLIED TO GOVERNMENTS. Though the term Islamism has been defined by other people and most of you guys are just reflecting on that. This article is still strongly POV from the otherside. Reagrdless, this is a very controversial topic and i think we should start fresh again. MuslimsofUmreka 04:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

This is all interesting, but it has nothing to do with the article. Posts to this talk page need to focus on suggestions for changes to the article, or discussions about recent changes to the article. Discussions about how you feel about Islam, or your personal experiences with Islam, or what you think about Muslims who live in Colorado, are inappropriate. Wikipedia talk pages are not discussion forums. Anything that is not directly discussing the article or changes to the article may be removed by administrators. Consider this fair warning. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 04:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I was giving suggestions for the article before, but people began attacking me. So I defended myself. But they did not get a warning. But regardless, I think that the current article is very good. Maybe it can be broadened up to include the various definitions the term Islamism takes from different people. Very differnt definitions are applied to the term as shown in the sources. I also think that the history section should be removed. It lists Islamic groups as Islamist movements based on opinion and it has nothing to do with the term. I think that the history section should focus more on the evolution of the term. The different stages it went through, for example, the term was first used in french to just refer to Islam. Then the term disappeared. Then during the 1970s people began using that term to refer to what they refered to as 'political Islam.' Then Daniel Pipes popularized the usage of the term. The article should also include a controversy sectio nabout how controverisal the use of the term is. That is my take on it. MuslimsofUmreka 04:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Katefan I hope this is at least enough about the article for you not to get mad at me.

It sounds like what Muslim of Umreka is really saying is ISLAM IS A RELIGION MEANT TO BE APPLIED TO WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES. I mean can you really expect that someone will think anything and everything should be ruled by extreme islamic law EXCEPT wikipedia?

He said we all agree that the original version has a strong anti-Islamic bias but I dont think thats right. Maybe it was totally no good but the version now is much worse then that if its possible. its the first thing that comes up on google and its a total embarassment. and the stupidest part is that it sounds like the wikipedia administration choose to freeze it like this to begin with because he asked someone to do this. just because the article made him upset by not being extreme muslim as he would put it. Im sorry but thats true.

Why do you think he will work everything out with people when his new article is up now? If nothing happens he wins dont you think.

You asked what we should do with the article so i think the first thing we should do is go back to how it was before he changed everything to be like it is now. Thats what I think.67.188.110.197

I did it. Now we can change it from here.67.188.110.197

Wholesale reverting is not the way to move forward. It will just get the article locked again, and it won't get you the version you want. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Martin Kramer link spam

This article, as is the case with over 30 others, has had an external link added to an essay of Martin Kramer. It has been determined that these additions are link spam. When this article is unprotected could this link be removed. Full discussion of this instance of POV and self-promoting link spam vandalism can be found here Talk:Martin_Kramer#Is_Martin_Kramer_link_spamming_Wikipedia.3F --70.48.241.41 21:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Please remove the protection to the page.

It isn't warranted. Amibidhrohi 05:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I've unprotected it. Everybody behave, please, or I'll protect it again. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 15:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent change

[14] Do you have a specific source for this? This kind of assertion needs to be sourced, especially if you have something here in quotes. Who's saying what's in these quotes? Please be diligent about sourcing. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 15:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Only the part "inherently a political religion" should be in quotes. Here is one source. There are several sources were the above quote can be found. MuslimsofUmreka 21:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

There needs to be a discrete source. Pick one and use it, please. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 04:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The rest off what I wrote can also be quoted by Islamic sites. Who believe that in the middle east there should be only Islamic law. MuslimsofUmreka 21:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Islam isn't just one religion in reality. The Shia perspective of Islam differs from the Sunni one, the Salafi Arabic Islam differs from the Sufi-influenced Islam of Bengalis. To make any generalization on what position Islam categorically takes on any issue is wrong. There are millions of Muslims in India, in Turkey, across Europe and the Americas who do NOT believe Islam is inherently political. Do not include your personal perspectives on Islam in the article. Amibidhrohi 23:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: introductory caveat

MuslimsofUmreka, I have changed the introductory caveat for two reasons:

• This article should not be about the term, but about the ideology as a historical phenomenon.
• To say as you did that “this article does not talk about islam” is POV.Timothy Usher 01:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Please stop removing tags

MuslimsofUmreka, I again request you to stop removing other editors' dispute tags. It is not up to you to unilaterally decide that an article is not disputed.Timothy Usher 01:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is now crap. MOUs edits have pretty much destroyed it from the formerly balanced state it had been in and ruined the collaborative efforts we had been making in regards to the introduction. Please cease removing tags, MOU. You label my posting of them as "childish". I find this completely ironic. Kyaa the Catlord 01:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You mean the former extremely racist and biased introduction meant to degrade Islam from the viewpoint of members of the KKK. The article now is neutral and very well balanced. MuslimsofUmreka 01:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I posted the below: "Islamism refers to political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam is both a religion and a social system. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law.

The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. While virtually all Muslims regard their religion as a way of life and desire to live in accordance with Islamic values, many Muslims support peace and reject the use of their religion to justify violence, revolution, or radical views."

There is nothing racist, biased or otherwise inflammatory about it, unless you are MOU. I'd like to ask any admins who are viewing this to PLEASE step forward and put a stop to MOU's repeated slurring of my name. Kyaa the Catlord 02:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent revisions

Timothy, I think your revisions are good. I would make one suggestion: The fact that its usage is controversial should most definitely be mentioned in the first paragraph; as it is now it's mentioned way too far down. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 13:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Katefan0. I'll get to work on it some more in a bit.

I can't say I entirely agree that the usage controversy should lead, perhaps that's American-centric POV though. But it if helps NPOVing or even stablizes (imagine that!) the article, it's worthwhile.

One thing I hope to fix is the duplicated Pipes quote, and reorganize things a little if not a lot. He shouldn't be the central focus of this. I just have to think of how to do it. Any ideas on this?

And thanks, Graft, hadn't gotten to that quite yet. Please do continue.Timothy Usher 01:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I can think at this time is changing "Islam refers to" to "Islamism is a controversial term referring to". I don't much like it because it suggests that the article is about the term, a theme which aleady dominates the following paragraphs which themselves were compromises. Islamism is too salient as an observable phenomenon to reduce it to a linguistic debate. Perhaps someone has a better idea.Timothy Usher 03:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there an anti-Islamic bias here?

I open with this question. I have read the article, written portions of it, and I am well informed about Islam and the particular topic addressed here. However, User:24.7.141.159 (and perhaps others) have stated that they believe this article to be clearly "anti-Islamic". For my part, I do not see this. I am aware of several criticisms against the article - the most notable being the topic definition's potential, perhaps actual, confusion of a Muslim and an Islamist. Still, this does not strike me as anti-Islamic, only an area for clarification.

Ignorance seems the root of much bias. Rather than argue with each other, perhaps we can teach one another? I, for one, still have much to learn.

Here is my proposal. Let's take one point of the article - a sentence, phrase, etc. - and look at it. We can ask ourselves: Is it anti-Islamic? Is it justifiable? And so on. I invite anyone to cite from the article the best example of this bias and to briefly explain their choice. Above all, please be clear and brief. The goal here is to make your position obvious, as to a room of trusting students. Please consider that trust. As for myself, I hope to learn something. --Vector4F 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I think the anti-islamic bias on that article starts right at the beginning, the bare definition of Islamism. Even if that definition is coherrent with original scholars on that topic, this definition is far from how the common public nowadays percieves Islamism. Western media generally only differs between so called "moderate Muslims" and "Islamist" (or any of the other words for it Fundamentalist, Extremist, Radicalist, ...). So public opinion usually understands Islamist as violent Muslim. By expanding that term to anyone who'd like that politics get influenced by Islam, you are peging many people Islamist. How do you call pro-lifer? Christianists? Obviously their religion influences politics, don't you think? Raphael1 20:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Pro-lifer is not synonymous with Christian, one can be Christian and pro-choice and non-Christian and pro-life. As for people who want religion to influence the state, we generally call them fundamentalists and if they are Christian then Christian fundamentalists. IIRC, the parallel with Islamism is Dominionism. This was a short aside, please keep discussion to the article in hand. - FrancisTyers 20:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I just editted the article to clarify this a bit more. One may be Muslim and not be an Islamist. One many wish to influence politics with Islam and not be an Islamist. The difference which can be called Islamism is two-fold: 1)particular religious views and 2)anti-secular political views. The influence of religion on government is not what makes one Islamist. The Islamist position is opposed to secularism and favors Islam as a major or dominant philosophy for government. I can explain this further, and would prefer to add more to the article. In short, Islamism is a narrow and specific interpretation of Islam as it should be practiced (including by the government). Islam itself is not so narrow and not always so specific.

Let me address the problem of perceptions. I understand the influence of Western media and the ignorance of most people to these issues. I do not believe that the public has even a working definition of Islamism - I think they have a bunch of suspicions and impressions. I think that makes this article all the more important. Most of the facts about Islamists are not attractive to journalists or bloggers. I think the distinctions here are important and the best course is to address them head on. I do believe the article can be greatly improved in this regard. However, it is a speciality topic and will always remain a bit obscure. --Vector4F 01:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Vector4F, this is the opening paragraph that I would like to use. However I am not committing the change until we can talk about every edit I made. Cool?

"Islamism refers to any political Muslim movement perceived to harbor anti-secular and, consequently, anti-Western political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Muslims generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system (Deen), should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Muslims advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. The term Islamism is a means to define any group of Muslims that stray from widely held customs and traditions of European populations. The use of this term is typically considered a form of triumphalism by Muslims." (forgot to sign) 24.7.141.159 12:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi 24. The problem here is that the last half of what you've written above is not true. It doesn't 'define any group of Muslims that stray...', rather it defines isolated, fringe groups. It isn't used to paint great swaths of the Islamic world, it is used to define specific, non-mainstream groups. I think you are failing to understand that it isn't being used against the Islamic world as a whole, but instead, to define and categorize certain isolated groups that are truly outside of the norm.

Also, I believe that part of the problem is that Islamist redirects here. I believe that the common usage of this in the media is the first definition, not the one used by moderate and liberal Muslims to describe themselves. Personally, I've never heard a Muslim refer to Islamism in the manner described in the second paragraph. Perhaps this is not a common usage in the modern era and the term has been hijacked? Kyaa the Catlord 12:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I support the version of 24.7.141.159. Raphael1 13:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Based on a rereading of the text of the article, I support it with the following suggestion. I think that the last line does not need to be limitted to "by Muslims", it can be considered triumphalism by nonmuslims as well. I think the statement is stronger actually without "by Muslims" since there are nonmuslims who are supportive of the moderate and liberal wings who use "Islamism" in a positive sense. Kyaa the Catlord 13:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Kyaa, can you please modify wherever you feel the changes need to be so I can see your version (use strikethrough formatting if you can when you delete text). Out of respect for Vector4F, I really want to get his/her input as well before doing anything. I do agree with you that the term is meant to distinguish between the "Western-philic" and "Western-phobic" ideologies, but the danger is that we paint all Muslims with one broad brush. My thinking is this: somehow I want to convey to people that although a majority of Muslims adhere to the idea of "deen" where politics, economics, etc are under the umbrella of Islam, that the current usage of Islamism is more geared towards any group who claims to be Muslim but not exactly in line with contemporary Western beliefs. In other words, the initial paragraph should distinguish between Bhutto (as discussed above) and whoever we, as Americans, are not supposed to like today. Prior versions of the article, as per my reading, seemed to erroneously suggest that Islam is more like the modern day practice of Christianity in the United States (and Western world) where separation of Church and State is a hallmark. I think all of us have touched on these points before in some way on these talk pages.

What do you think about removing the last sentence completely? I do agree that many nations, religions, and groups are guilty of triumphalism but does it need to be overtly stated? Does it add a bias from a Muslim prespective? Can we modify the second paragraph to more accurately convey this point in a more NPOV way? I'm open to seeing what you think a better version of the 2nd paragraph would be. Someone should page Vector4F so we can get his thoughts on this as well. Ahhh, Wikipedia at its finest. I like this. Good work team. 24.7.141.159 17:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm considering bowing out completely. I've found that my understanding of this term was limitted to the popular usage of "Islamist" in the media and I'm not sure that my grasp of it is strong enough to understand the second, more historic meaning. On the subject of triumphalism, I believe that taking it out completely may be the best course of action. It seems rather superfluous. I wonder who originally added it and what their reasoning behind it was, but without that knowledge I feel it doesn't fit in the introduction at the very least. I try to remain neutral on Islamic issues, I'm a student of ME history and it is impossible to do that without having some perspective on Islam and the role of it in politics. :D But I agree, this is how WP should work. :D Kyaa the Catlord 19:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think another thing we need to take into account is the source of these cries. Do they add to the article? Do they attempt to improve and remove the POV from the article or do they simply have a history of going to any article which deals with the topic of Islam and Islamic movements, political or otherwise, and complain? Is there an agenda they are pushing? These are necessary questions when we deal with these topics. Kyaa the Catlord 07:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey folks. Throwing in my $.02 on 24's comments, above. I'm uncomfortable with the intro as written because while Islamists may, in fact, be anti-Western and anti-secular, this is really more a result of their particular attitude towards proper governance, political philosophy, etc. In fact, 24's version seems to villify "Islamists" way more than the current version does. Personally, I think we should couch our writing so that "Islamist" is defined more with respect to their orientation in the Muslim world, rather than with respect to the West. Obviously the latter is an important part of how certain Islamist philosophies developed, but as above, I'd characterize the difference between Bhutto and Islamists as "progressive reformist Muslim" vs. "regressive reformist Muslim". (Not actual proposals for words in the article, just illustrative.) Bhutto wants to make Islam grow and seeks to interpret its principles in new and creative ways. Most Islamists think things were perfect in the time of the Prophet and we need only return to the principles and way of life practiced in that time to create a harmonious society. Both of these are perfectly consistent with the idea of deen and look to Islam as their main inspiration, but they're definitely distinct, and in a more important way than mere anti-Western sentiment encapsulates. Graft 20:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Bhutto? ... may refer to any member of a prominent political family in Pakistan? Raphael1 22:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Graft, thanks for the comments. Can you please clarify what this means:

..."Islamist" is defined more with respect to their orientation in the Muslim world..."

The reason I am asking for clarification is because I don't seem to understand how that would change the introduction and, consequently, the implied meaning of the term. I'm a native speaker of most of the major languages in the Muslim world and I have no knowledge of a word that Muslims use to describe the phenomenon of Islamism as defined on these pages. I have searched dictionaries and consulted five professors on this topic via telephone--none of whom could turn up anything. Would it be a stretch for me to conclude the label of Islamism is a Western term used to describe certain movements in Muslim communities? I don't think it's a stretch.

Most Islamists think things were perfect in the time of the Prophet and we need only return to the principles and way of life practiced in that time to create a harmonious society."

True, but so do most Muslims who don't necessarily fall under the category of Islamist. I could give some examples of extremely Western-philic and "moderate" thinkers who say the same thing. So then what is an Islamist? 24.7.141.159

This discussion of anti-Islamic biases was moved from the archives back to the talk page. User:Pecher removed this posting and another pro-Islamic editor has been banned. It leads me to conclude that Muslim wikipedians and pro-Islamic wikipedians are not welcome on these pages. With that said, I would like to restart discussion on this topic. 24.7.141.159 09:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hrana98 etc., I like Pecher before me have removed your recent post because the material is outdated, it is already archived, and as far as I can tell, you are violating WP:POINT.Timothy Usher 09:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not outdated until the anti-Islamic biases are addressed. You've already helped to ban one pro-Islamic editor. Are you now saying this article is completely neutral and address concerns of Muslim editors?

It looks like a few journalists have been contacted by MOU (or some other editor) who are very intereste in how we in Wiki land are handling Islam-related articles. It is in our collective best interest to follow every policy and tread carefully. 24.7.141.159 09:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

So what exactly are you trying to say? Especially with that "tread carefully" part.

I'll wait to see what others have to say about this...wouldn't want to banned like Kyaa. For my own part, in addition to the points I've raised on WP:ANI re the Deuterium sockpuppet, the basic problem with your narrative is that there is no obvious point of action re the article. Timothy Usher 10:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

If it wasn't clear before then let me say it again. I don't want Wikipedia to get more bad press by all of us not following Wiki policies. I don't think any Muslim editors are left here and the debate is clearly still raging. This development worries me dearly.

I've seen your post over at WP:ANI trying to ban my IP along with multiple other users. The most tragic part is attempting to say that I'm user:hana98. Please don't lecture me about sock puppets. The fact is you've been challenged on every claim by me and instead of arguing me on facts, you've resorted to trying to ban all those disagree with you.24.7.141.159 10:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, MOU isn't banned. He's been blocked for a week for engaging in personal attacks. Second, we're trying to create a NPOV article, not one that is favorable to either side. Islamism does not equal Islam in all cases. "Islamist" is used by the media to specify between moderate and liberal Muslims and Islamic causes and those which are more fundamentalist, extreme and potentially dangerous. I thought we were all on the same page that there are multiple meanings to Islamism, at least we were before MOU came and started unilaterally altering the article, even after we'd agreed on the talk page that this required discussion. All we want, imho, is to get back to where we were before he started "warring" with us over this page. Is that too much to ask? (removed that, this is actually where we'd started moving forward. Is that your intention 24? I'd like that, personally.) Kyaa the Catlord 12:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Kyaa... toally agree with you on moving forward. I'd like to add a few more users who showed up recently into the same boat as MOU for being unproductive non-sense creators. I'm hoping those people leave soon because they have a propensity for dragging out things ad tedium. 24.7.141.159 13:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Changes

My definition of Islamism would simply be : Any individual or group actively working to implement sharia. The words "Sharia" and "Khilafa" go hand in hand with the concept of Islamism. While the vast majority of Muslims seek to enjoy their lives in a modern environment, there are those who romanticize over the 6th-14th century and wish to bring a 'revival' of that form of government. On the matter of anti-islamic ideas, it's a legitimate concern considering the huge role Daniel Pipes plays in this article. I'm a Muslim myself, though also a secularist through and through. I don't think there's a single intelligent Muslim on earth who could go through all Daniel Pipes has said and done and not see him as a bigot with an axe to grind with Islam and Muslims as a whole. I've read his works, spoken to him personally too. To have his view on Islamic systems highlighted would be like having some Nazi take the stage on a lecture about Zionism and Jewish heritage. Amibidhrohi 19:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

A Muslim? My apologies for questioning your motives earlier. Have you read "Shari'ah: The Islamic Law" by Abdur Rahman I. Doi? The book talks about the applications of Islamic Law and gives ample Hadith, Qur'anic verses, and historical background. It is a must read for anyone considering talking about Shari'ah. I would have to say that ideas presented in the Qur'an and the mature interpretations starting around the late 7th to early 8th century are congruent to many Western beliefs. Furthermore, the application of Shari'ah in the Ottoman Empire is also very congruent with our western ways. For example, women given the right to own land and the right to divorce in the 7th century was unheard of in Europe. Hell, women couldn't vote until the 19th Amendment came about in 1920. Reading the history of how close it came to being defeated while Muslim women were granted these rights based on Islam nearly 1300 years earlier. How then can you state that Shari'ah goes hand in hand with Islamism? 24.7.141.159 02:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

"My definition of Islamism would simply be : Any individual or group actively working to implement sharia." Too simple a definition. Some aspects of Sharia are implemented in the secular government of Singapore, especially with regard to family issues (marriage, divorce, inheritance, etc.). By your definition then, one might argue that Singapore's government is Islamist and that, of course, is not the case. Dunner99 14:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Amibidhrohi, it'd be difficult not to agree that Daniel Pipes and his view is given too much prominence here. However, note that it was [User:MuslimsofUmreka|MuslimsofUmreka]] who did this[[15]], [[16]] to give the impression that Pipes is the main one who uses the term Islamism, and to thusly discredit it by association. My recent edits removed the duplication of his quote, and pushed it down into the Islam and Islamism section.

Just a quick note, Daniel Pipes is a scholar considered very radical in his interpretation and writings about Islamism. He is the one who first suggested surveilling Muslim students on campuses. His writings in academic work is highly controversial and he can thus not be used as a reference for a neutral definition. Regards, --217.227.31.81 16:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the sentence, "Other Muslims take offense to usage of the term, particularly when used to imply that all devout Muslims are Islamists." However, on second thought, maybe I'm just not aware of this phenomenon. I can only say I've never heard this suggestion prior to this discussion page, when MOU and User:24.7.141.159 started saying precisely that, and in MOU's case was offended by the term by this logic: because all true Muslims must be devout, and because devout Muslims *must* be Islamists, the term Islamist can only be a derogatory term for Muslims in general.

I've also removed the sentence from the earlier version, "A whole layout of an Islamic government can be found in the Quran and Hadith", as earlier discussed this is not the case. For example, what is the established principle of succession?

User:24.7.141.159,the introductory paragraph you'd propoesd the reposted thread above is already in the article with only minor differences. Likewise, I'd taken it upon myself to remove the "triumphalism" remark, which seemed out of place. What else about the article does this old thread address?Timothy Usher 22:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Any feedback on how the re-organization is proceeding?Timothy Usher 22:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Calling all Muslims Islamists, who advocate a system replacement of secular state laws with Islamic law, is IMHO not precise enough as it would include peaceful groups, who see Islam as a way of life with social and political aspects. Raphael1 02:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If you are saying that there is a difference between holding that Islam has political aspects, as would presumably any moral philosophy, or seing it as a way if life, as would any devout believer on the one hand, and asserting that Islam as the foundation of legitimacy and Sharia as the supreme law, as do Islamists, on the other, I would absoultely agree. Several editors who've contributed to the article and to the talk page have denied the validity of this distinction.

However, the peaceful (or not) disposition of a group is not relevant to describing their goals.

One of the problems I have with the current "Islam and Islamism" section is that the POV equating Islam and Islamism is given much more prominance, because there was more text here to begin with. My main task was to restore a coherent flow to the narrative (we've a long way to go) and eliminate redundancies, rather than to add new text, so this problem wasn't addressed. Another is that the placement of Pipes' view can be seen either as giving him the last world or marginalizing him as a lone dissenter.

Other than omission, is there anything else about the article that gives this impression of equivalence between Islam and Islamism? By all means, let's change it.Timothy Usher 02:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Islamism

Though I am not familiar with this word (This word is foreign to me; I think westerns have invented this word). Can anybody let me know the Islamic term for that?

The definition "Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam."

Does this supposed to refer to Iran's government? Please help me understand what is going on here. --Aminz 00:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, westerners invented this term, as is prominently discussed in this English-language article. And you're correct that the Islamic Republic of Iran is considered to be Islamist, as is also discussed in the article.

As per your edit summary, is the lack of reference to the views of Abdolkarim Soroush the reason for the tag? Would you be willing to add it to an appropriate place in the article?Timothy Usher 00:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Timothy.

Well, then 1. It should be mentioned in the definition that westerns have invented this term. And 2. I see both “factual and neutral problems” with the usage of "anti-secular" in the definition (I need to go now but will copy/paste the Soroush’s quote in order to show why I disagree). --Aminz 01:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

In the first portion of the third subparagraph of the introduction (which was written by a currently blocked poster who changed it unilaterally against consensus but we've pretty much given up fighting over it at this point), it states the origin of the term as being first used in France in like 1970. So, I think it is clear that it was a Western creation which has been borrowed by certain Muslim groups. Kyaa the Catlord 07:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

How many other articles are titled with terms of western origin? Should we thusly mark them all?Timothy Usher 08:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I will get back soon(swamped now), but just wanted to mention something. Before that, I should say I am quite ignorant about politics and my argument is just based on my common sense. It may be very well wrong. I believe we need a brief section titled "criticism of the term Islamism". It seems to me that the name chosen for this term, its definition and the meanings it carries, is carefully chosen in order to Humiliates Islam (plus have some political misuses). I believe it has been originally used to humiliate Islam and later politically misused. I will write more about the clever thought behind this invention and how it can be politically misused. It seems to me that those who invented this term (or better say those who tried to define it and re-used it) were genius guys with dishonest intentions. But I am no good in politics and not competence to give any opinion here. --Aminz 09:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I should add, to be fair, it seems to me that there are also good thing about invention of this term. --Aminz 09:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The term is derived from the Arabic word 'islamawiyya' if that helps, alternatively Islamic fundamentalism is 'al-usuliyya al-islamiyya'. --217.227.31.81 16:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Borderline vandalism

Irishpunktom, your most recent edit is absurd. You say see talk page, but I've not seen you here.

As I've posted on your user page,

"...is a broad undefined term that usually relates to..."?

1) There's no problem with broad terms; many articles have them 2) the term is not undefined, as the article makes clear 3) usually? Can you explain where and when it doesn't? 4) please actually read the article 5) there is this tab on the top of your WP interface, between the "article" and "edit this page" buttons, called "discussion".Timothy Usher 09:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It isn't undefined, footnote 6 links directly to a definition of it. I'm not sure why IPT is trying to start an edit war, but I ask him to please refrain. Kyaa the Catlord 09:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

there is no definition. From Users talk page: There is No definitive definition for the term. The IHEU defines it as "A fundamentalist Islamic revivalist movement generally characterized by moral conservatism and the literal interpretation of the Koran and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all aspects of life" - the WSJ decribes it as "An obscure noun that seems to be derived from Islamist." which it describes as "A person or an organization using Islamic religious precepts to form a political ideology." - Now, Princeton University describes Islamist as "an orthodox Muslim" or "a scholar who knowledgeable in Islamic studies".

So, in short, no, there is no definition for Islamist, as I have made clear by my alteration to the introduction. --Irishpunktom\^talk 09:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Just because the definition is undergoing evolution does not make the term undefined. Yes, it is rather murky, but the core of the concept remains the same. Muddying it further using the language you have reverted to three times now does not help. Kyaa the Catlord 09:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I said it is broad and undefined, because it is broad and undefined. You could have added evolving, I wouldn't have minded, but to call it vandalism is ridiculous. --Irishpunktom\^talk 09:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not calling it vandalism exactly. I'm just not agreeing that there needs to be a single definition of a word agreed upon for it to be defined. Words, especially -isms, tend to be murky and convey multiple meanings depending on context. In the context of this article, I believe that it doesn't need to be reinforced that the word is still undergoing change in the first sentance. It IS noted that the usage is controversial in the introduction and perhaps this could be expanded to include something about how the word is still in the process of being 'defined'. Words are never concretely defined, especially in the English language. Kyaa the Catlord 09:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Update: I like your current change, actually. Kyaa the Catlord 09:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. We'll see if it lasts. --Irishpunktom\^talk 09:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

IPT, it's an affront to common sense to first give several examples of definition of "Islamist", and then say that there is no definition of "Islamist". Pecher ^Talk 09:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

An affront?! A definition is a defintite, concise explanation of the term or word, or whatever. Considering the cited examples come to differing conclusions, it cannot be said the term is defined. --Irishpunktom\^talk 09:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well put, Pecher. As I posted in my response to IPT on my talk page,

Yes, Islamist can also have the Princeton university meaning, as in all scholarship, e.g. Arabist. The article makes it clear we are talking about a political philosophy, not a scholarly emphasis. By WSJ do you mean Wall Street Journal, or some dictionary? Your examples are specious. But even so, one could not conclude that Islamism has *no* definition, could we? The only words without definitions are those that don't exist.Timothy Usher 09:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposed hybrid intro

Islamism refers to a set of anti-secular political ideologies derived from conservative religious views of fundamentalism. Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to certain interpretations of Islamic law.

Kyaa, Irishpunktom, Pecher, what do you think?Timothy Usher 09:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I like IPT's current version. I think that we do need to make mention of sharia in the second line, as an example of a system that Islamists would like to impose on societies. Kyaa the Catlord 09:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

added. --Irishpunktom\^talk 09:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I too like IPT's current version. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 09:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the changes just made. It implies that Sharia is a monolith. Thats why I said using rather than according to. If according stays, we are obliged to add "an Interpretation of islamic law". --Irishpunktom\^talk 10:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I appeciate the basis of your objection, but I'm not sure how "using" is any better in this regard. Most differences here can be dealt with in the Sharia article. Timothy Usher 10:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Using implies they are using the sharia as a source, which all interpretations do, however according implies that there is one Sharia, when we know there are many interpretations. Compare Morocco to Saudi Arabia. --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don’t hear the difference in sense you’re suggesting, though perhaps other editors will. Of course you’re right that there are many interpretations, but most differences can be dealt with in the Sharia article, except those directly related to Islamism; e.g. interpretations by which the state ought be secular, or not, as Aminz touched on earlier.Timothy Usher 11:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't want the nature of the interpretation dealt with. Different Islamists use different interpretations, the point is that Sharia is not a Monolith.. I'll just add it, remove it if needed. --Irishpunktom\^talk 13:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me.Timothy Usher 13:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kyaa

Kyaa and Timothy, I just realized I was misreading the passage I was editing. Sorry! I like your new suggestion Kyaa. --Aminz 10:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think Timothy got it better than I did though. :D I'm still not sure the grammar is quite right on the first line of that paragraph. Kyaa the Catlord 10:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Aminz, see [17].Timothy Usher 10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed and Islamism at odds with Wikipedia Islam Project

Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to its interpretation of Islamic Law.

That sentence is in the introduction and is at odds with Wikipedia articles on Islam and Sharia.

From Islam: Islām is described as a dīn, meaning "way of life" and/or "guidance".

Islamic law covers all aspects of life, from the broad topics of governance and foreign relations all the way down to issues of daily living. Islamic laws that were covered expressly in the Qur’an were referred to as hudud laws and include specifically the five crimes of theft, highway robbery, intoxication, adultery and falsely accusing another of adultery, each of which has a prescribed "hadd" punishment that cannot be forgone or mitigated. The Qur'an also details laws of inheritance, marriage, restitution for injuries and murder, as well as rules for fasting, charity, and prayer.

From Sharia: For traditional Sunni Muslims, the primary sources of Islamic law are the Qur'an, the Hadith, the unanimity of Muhammad's disciples on a certain issue (ijma), and Qiyas (drawing analogy from the essence of divine principles). Qiyas — various forms of reasoning, including by analogy — are used by the law scholars (Mujtahidun) to deal with situations where the sources provided no concrete rules. The consensus of the community or people, public interest, and others were also accepted as secondary sources where the first four primary sources allow.

Maybe the best definition is of Islamism is contained in the Islamic fundamentalist article: Islamism is ... in conflict with the secular, democratic state, based upon the widely supported Universal Rights (as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)).

The fact is Muslims describe their faith as a deen (which includes politics) but so do Islamists. Does this mean that anyone Muslim proclaiming political ideologies sourced from Islamic scripture is automatically an Islamist? No it should not. However, this article claims that to be true. Rewording the first phrase of the introduction so it is not at odds with the Islam and Sharia articles is a prudent first step. User247 12:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to include the citation request. If any editor feels the above statement to be true, then we need a mutually agreed upon citation from an impartial scholarly source. Furthermore, the articles on Islam and Sharia need to be amended properly. As it stands, this article is implying incorrectly that all Muslims are Islamists--this is wrong! Lastly, if you haven't figured it out yet, I've made me a user name finally. User247 12:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

And the action item is...? Irishpunktom wrote this, to general consensus. You keep coming back with these broad criticisms which boil down to, you believe this article ought not exist, because Islam is the same as Islamism. That is one opinion. But your approach is functionally much like trolling, in that you wish to engage endless and unresolvable discussions which have no practical application to the article. Indeed, you were reposting large portions of thread from the archives so as to flood the talk page. Meanwhile your edit isn't even addressed, much less supported, by your comments here. Please, let's focus on something more specific and actionable. What about the article do you believe ought be changed, and how?Timothy Usher 13:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say, that it should be mentioned in the definition, that the term is generally being applied to radical resp. extreme groups, who promote acts of terror. Raphael1 13:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Is this the case? If so, how should we mention it?Timothy Usher 13:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we discuss your first question first. I just did a google news search and looked into the results: PipeLineNews.org calls the Muslim American Society a Islamist Pressure Group and defends their claim by calling them an arm of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood. The Khaleej Times calls the 950 ex-prisoners members of an Islamist group, because they were accused of terrorism. Monster and Critics discusses the terror threat posed by Islamists. The Jerusalem Post claims that al-Qaida is intimately engaged in this Iran-led Islamist alliance. The The Sun news reports the warning to expect more radical Islamist-inspired terrorism in Europe in coming years. I could cite many more news articles. Indeed I haven't found one news report, which is not linking Islamism to Terrorism. Raphael1 14:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Turkey's Justice and Development Party isn't linked to terrorism, while the contemporary incarnation of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood has at least publically distanced itself from terrorism and committed itself to peaceful change in Egypt, yet these are commonly described as Islamists. On the other hand, groups such as PLO. PFLP (IRA, etc.) were never labelled as Islamists, although they are terrorists. You are right that a very conspicuous number of Islamist groups are also terrorists, but they are independent concepts.Timothy Usher 14:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It is usually aimed at more radical, terrorist groups. The problem is that it is also being used by, um, less kooky Muslims to define themselves. We need to make them stop doing that! *grin* Kyaa the Catlord 14:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood is the most dangerous of all the terror groups according to Red State. Besides it's interesting that Tariq Ramadan a grandson of Hasan al-Banna a founder of the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't get a visa based on a Patriot Act provision that bars entry to those who endorse terrorism.[18]. Can you show me some articles claiming the Turkey's Justice and Development Party (AKP) are islamists? Besides, I've never claimed, that terrorism and islamism are synonym terms, since terrorism is not at all exclusively connected to Islam. Raphael1 15:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've just found out that Graham E. Fuller, a former Vice-Chairman of the National Intelligence Council at CIA , defines the term (Islamism) broadly enough to include the Turkey's Justice and Development Party (AKP). He states:

First we need to define terms. What is an Islamist? I define the term broadly—in keeping with the reality of the phenomenon: An Islamist is anyone who believes that the Koran and the Hadith (traditions of the Prophet’s life, actions, and words) contain important principles about Muslim governance and society, and who tries to implement these principles in some way. This definition embraces a broad spectrum that includes both radical and moderate, violent and peaceful, traditional and modern, democratic and antidemocratic. At one extreme it includes Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda; on the other, the ruling moderate Justice and Development Party (AKP) in Turkey, which seeks membership in the European Union and cooperates with Washington on key aspects of regional politics. The moderate side of the spectrum vastly outweighs the more dangerous, violent and radical segment, yet it is these latter radical forces that constitute the focus of most governments and the media. Islamism also includes fundamentalist views (literalist, narrow, intolerant) but does not equate with it. If we are to understand the long-term issues of Islamism and democracy, we need to look at both “good” Islamists (from the viewpoint of Western policy makers) as well as the “bad.” There is an ongoing struggle among them.

[...]

The prognosis for political Islam under these conditions—indeed for almost any form of moderate politics—is not good. Moderate voices, Islamist or non-Islamist, dare not speak up in the mood of rising radicalism. Indeed, we might speculate that at least two things must occur before we can hope to see any longer-term trend of moderation within Arab Islamist politics. Only after existing regimes fall, or throw open the political process, will there be a chance for genuinely open and democratic orders to emerge. But this in itself is not enough, for the mood of the new, more populist regimes will initially be anti-American. The external sources of radicalization must also be curtailed. This means an end to the radical right-wing policies of the Likud in Israel and a just settlement of the Palestinian problem, a departure of American troops from the region, and an end to the more intimidating and broad-brush anti-Muslim discrimination that has unfortunately come to mark the new global alert against Muslim terrorism.

Since the radical/dangerous islamist forces constitute the focus of most governments and the media, I'd say we shouldn't use a definition which embraces such a broad spectrum. Raphael1 17:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I cannot agree with the above coment, not least because I find it contradictory. Fuller's quote is clear that he defines "Islamism" broadly to include all groups, "radical and moderate, violent and peaceful, traditional and modern, democratic and antidemocratic", that seek to establish sharia as a basis for governance. With that view in mind, I can see no reason for jumping to conclude that we shouldn't use a broad definition of "Islamism" because "the radical/dangerous islamist forces constitute the focus of most governments and the media"; the latter contention is unsourced and represents an editor's personal opinion, which is not relevant as far as Wikipedia is concerned. You can also take a look at Martin Kramer's essay on the evolution of the term; Kramer gives a more detailed and nuanced view, but the thrust is the same: any political Ismaic movement is usually described as "Islamist". So, I believe we should go with the academic flow in this case, just like in others. Pecher ^Talk 17:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

That "the radical/dangerous islamist forces constitute the focus of most governments and the media" is not an not an unsourced claim, but is part of Fuller's quote. Raphael1 18:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced and unsupported is the conclusion that all others are not called "Islamists". Pecher ^Talk 18:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Why should I disprove my own claim? I've already cited plenty of souces, that prove my claim. If you think, that the term "islamist" is generally applied to peaceful, modern and democratic groups, please try to find some sources for your claim. Raphael1 21:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Raphael1, The reason islamism is often associated with terrorism in the news is because Islamists often resort to terrorism in the reality which is the subject of that news, and because acts of terrorism tend to garner far more coverage than do Anatolian parliamentary maneuvers. I'm fine with pointing out that the term is often associated with terrorists, but not in a way that suggests that it's being unfairly misused. I've never seen a non-islamist terrorist organization labelled as islamist by virtue of terrorist acts alone. Have you? Nor does this observation belong in the introduction, as it is simply not part of the definition.Timothy Usher 21:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

None of your sources. Raphael1, says that the definition of "Islamist" is restricted to those resorting to violence, whereas both Fuller and Kramer apply the term "Islamists" to all political Islamic groups, whether violent or non-violent. Pecher ^Talk 21:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Even Mr. Kramer states, that "Ultimately, of course, the problem of these (islamist) movements was not what they were called. It was what they did. And as long as these movements continued to spawn, nurture, or tolerate the most violent forces in contemporary Islam, they would bring stigma to whatever term was applied to them." Therefore whatever term is applied to "them", it's definition should contain a reference to their "violence". Why should we use Voltaires definition from the eighteenth century, when nowadays general usage of the term is always connected to violence? I don't think, that a non-islamist terrorist organization would be labelled as islamist by virtue of terrorist acts alone, but I don't think any peaceful democratic political movement gets labelled as islamist either. Where is your source, that non-violent "anatolian parliamentary maneuvers" are called "islamistic"? You haven't found a single source, which calls any non-violent group islamistic. IMHO only secular fundamentalists would define Islamism in a way it embraces all Muslims. Raphael1 23:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Here are some sources, Raphael1, which refer to the Turkish party as Islamists, indeed this is far and away most frequently-used description:

[19][20][21]

[22][23] [24][25]

Those are fairly disparate sources, wouldn't you say? In case you are wondering how I found them, try [26]Timothy Usher 23:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Have you checked your sources? Most of them return 404 errors. Only IslamicSydney claims AK to be a islamist party. Slate ends with: "After all, not only have Turkey's Islamists strained to avoid confrontation with the military and committed themselves to upholding secularism, but the officers have also retained their historic role as the guardians of the Turkish political order." which seems rather odd. According to the BBC Mazlumder, an Islamic organisation that helps turkish women say that "since the headscarf ban was enforced, more than 10,000 women in Istanbul alone have been excluded from universities. These women and their families expressed their frustration in general elections in 2002, when they voted Turkey's AK Party, which has its roots in Islamist politics, into power." The Middle East Institute reports, that "Rusen Cakir, a senior correspondent for the Vatan Daily, concluded that the AK Party has radically separated itself from the Islamist ideology that represented previous Islamist parties." Freedom House reports as well, that "The AK Party appears to have abandoned its former Islamist aspirations." There are many more sources, which describe the AK party as secular, and the fact the headscarf ban in turkish universities is still in place seems to prove that. Raphael1 00:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The new sources are very weak too. Buzzle.com states: "Despite describing itself as "conservative democrat" and denying that its political credo is dominated by an Islamist agenda, the AKP's advance is seen by some as a threat to Turkey's secular state." Some? Who? Even the "Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs" states: "Actually, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a former popular Islamist mayor of Istanbul and the current party leader, made great efforts to distance his party from its more radical Islamist predecessors in Turkish politics, and he disclaimed any Muslim agenda." The photius.com link, which seems to use the CIA factbook as its source, supports my claim again, because they link islamism to violence again: "Several Islamic groups have claimed responsibility for these deaths, among them the Islamic Movement Organization, about which little is known. Another obscure group, composed of local Islamists linked to the Iranian government, has targeted external enemies of Iran. One of the worst incidents of religious violence occurred in the city of Sivas in 1993 when religious fanatics set fire to a hotel where a well-known author and translator of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses was staying." Raphael1 01:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

They were chosen precisely in order to demonstrate that I'm not cherry-picking; they are a more-or-less random collection of the first things that come up on Google. As there are 2,180,000 hits for these words, I've not the time to share them all. The photius.com link does not remotely support your claim:

"A legal, nonviolent Islamic political movement exists in Turkey. Its main locus is the Welfare Party (Refah Partisi--RP; also seen as Prosperity Party), which obtained the votes of 16.9 percent of the electorate in the 1991 general elections and captured 19 percent in the municipal elections of 1994. The Welfare Party also won mayoral contests in Ankara, Istanbul, and twenty-seven other large cities. The party stresses economic goals; to cast its appeal in religious terms would bring it into conflict with the constitutional ban on the organization of parties on the basis of religion, ethnicity, or political ideas considered authoritarian."

Again, Islamism is linked to violence only when Islamists resort to violence. It's hard to see why you think this unfair.Timothy Usher 01:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should read your quote again. It doesn't say "nonviolent islamist political movement" but "nonviolent islamic poilical movement". I've never asserted, that the media only covers Islam with a reference to violence, even if Hollywood does that.Raphael1 15:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Your point. I'm so used to seeing this party called Islamist, I misread it in this instance. However, the other links call them Islamists as demonstrated.Timothy Usher 23:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Reading again, it's not in the quoted text, but the title of the quoted section is "Islamists".

Well, including Mr. Fuller only 3 sources call them islamist while the 6 other sources don't. Is it possible, that you are a little bit biased? Raphael1 10:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

If I'm biased, it's only because I've heard the term used on many an occasion, used it myself, and there never seemed any doubt about its meaning until I came upon this talk page. That is bias of a sort, but one I can't really do much about.

I'll admit it's come as a surprise to see what opposition it engenders. Not unprecedented, though, as a Muslim associate of mine bristled at it, because it included the term Islam - but not because he felt it *was* Islam, as with several editors which have contributed substantially to this page. There is opposition, then, from both the liberal and conservative sides, for completely different reasons.

In the meantime, I'll re-read those cites to evaluate your 3:6 claim - as I'd told you, and as I'm sure you've verified, they're from the first two pages of google results, not cherry-picking from a clique of scholars - and post some more not too long from now.Timothy Usher 10:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Rechecking as promised, every one of the linked sources refer to the Turkish party as "Islamist" at least once.Timothy Usher 21:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

So what you are claiming then is that if a Muslim follows Islam then they are automatically an Islamist. Following from your logic, if Muslims ignore large chunks of their religion can they be removed of the shackles of such a negative term. These ideas need to be examined further because they are completely wrong. The very fact that Martin Kramer is a neo-conservative "Israeli-American" who supports activities such as Campus Watch puts his commentary on one extreme that MUST be balanced out. His commentary is skewed which is confirmed by his collective works and associations with Islamophobes like Daniel Pipes. Please provide a reliable source. Lastly, my original points demonstrating contradictions amongst Wikipedia's Islam, Sharia and Islamism articles is not being addressed. User247 23:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I found an interesting comment by John Esposito regarding Martin Kramer which futher solidifies that he is not a reliable academic source:

"The problem is that people do not address the question of who are the people behind this? What about Kramer who has Israeli citizenship and spent his career at Tel Aviv University running the Moshe Dayan Centre? That is fine with me. But if you look at the track record of the likes of Kramer and Pipes, do they ever criticise the Sharon government? I would say that they are not arguing for what is in the best interests of America. They are, rather, arguing for what is in the best interests of Israel." ~ John Esposito

Furthermore, Martin Kramer himself claims to not be a journalist on the talk page of his Wikipedia entry. Tell me again why an obvious Islamophobe's opinions of Islam have any relavence? The only way I'm going to buy this is if the current editors proclaiming Kramer as a reliable source on Islam will claim Hitler as a reliable source of Judaism. Let's get back to the contradiction of this article. User247 23:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a truly stupid comparison unless Hitler had a super-secret PhD in Jewish Studies. One thing that is certain however, is that Nazis and Islamists are unreliable sources on Nazism and Islamism respectively. Re-posting a quote I gave on the Kramer article's talk page of Esposito engaging in a spurious and possibly anti-semitic ad hominem attack on Kramer, tends to destroy your credibility. Armon 03:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Spam event horizon

Does anyone else feel that the article is approaching the Wikipedia:Spam Event Horizon in terms of all the external links and further reading? Some of them may be good reads, but wikipedia is not the place for listing worthwhile web pages and books. Thanks, Andjam 11:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

definition of Islamism

According to Menahem Milson, a professor emeritus of Arabic Literature at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, the terms "extremist Islam," "militant Islam," "radical Islam," and "Islamism" are synonymous.[27] Raphael1 14:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Life isn't fair. Labels are unfortunately a convienient way for homo sapiens to clearly define one another in an understandable way.

If I am from Europe, I'm European. If I'm from Asia, I'm Asian. The derogatory nature of such labels is unfortunately a by-product of society rather than the implied meaning of such a defining fact.

A fundamentalist, be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Tibetan, et. al., retains such a label. It is lamentable that such a label offends the bearer, yet does not eliminate the basic meaning. If one wants to explain their stance, feel free to write an unbiased explanation. During this process we must make sure to properly define this term so it is consistant with the concepts of Islam such that we do not cast an entire religion into the way we would like it to be or wrongly equate its followers with terrorists. If one wants to delete this article on the basis of a word alone ignores the purpose of a dictionary. This article cannot be used as a soapbox to redefine and attack Islam as this would fly in the face of the ideals of Wikipedia.

Please note that User:User247, who neglected to sign above, has taken User:141.156.178.63’s comments [28] and interpolated his own to alter the intended meaning of the passage. [29].Timothy Usher 00:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved above text from top to bottom. It isn't polite to add things to the top of the page. Kyaa the Catlord 19:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this discussion goes into the wrong direction; Just because someone believes in an alternative state or political system, it doesn't mean that he is militant. There are many orthodox Jews who believe that it is sinful that a Jewish state was created before the occurance of the messia. This led to bomb attacks in the 1930s against Zionist establishments - by orthodox Jews. Yet it doesn't mean that today orthodox Jews in general support the destruction of their own state, even if it contradicts their religious faith. Neither would probably anyone argue that fundamentalist Christians argue to overthrow the state just because they find the government too little Christian. Equally, Muslim fundamentalists can have a different opinion about how they would like to be governed without finding it acceptable to kill people for it. Furthermore, fundamentalism is only one aspect in Islamism. There are many modern Islamists, whose ideology, e.g. that of participating in democratic elections, is rejected by some fundamentalist groups. Islamists aren't all the same so it is wrong from my point of view to generalise them into one extreme category. --Arabist 17:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Very Weird

I have seemed to have lost any interest in editing this page. Very weird. I think its mostly because it brings out the worst in me. So I am officially dropping out from editing this page. MuslimsofUmreka 03:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed totallydisputed tag

I removed the tag because reading over this page, the issue was clearly that some editors deputed the term "Islamism" period. That doesn't warrant a disputed tag on the article, especially as it clearly states that the term is controversial. If anyone can point to specific cases of POV in the article or specific factual errors, please state them here so we can fix them, rather than reinserting the tag. Armon 12:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you scroll back up? Do you want me to copy the text from above? Raphael1 15:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

There's reams of discussion of stuff that's already been addressed -if you think there's more to do, or some are still unresolved, please just bullet point them here, and refer to the discussion section so I can re-read what I missed. Then hopefully we can fix them. Armon 16:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The actual definition of the word is simply wrong, which has not been addressed. Islamism is not a set of political ideologies derived from the conservative religious views of Islamic fundamentalism. Btw what actually is a "conservative view of Islamic fundamentalism"?!? The current definition equates strict followers of Islam, who see their religion as Deen, with terrorists. As I've said before Islamism is rather synonymous with extremist resp. militant Islam, who's followers resort to violence. Raphael1 16:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that this phrase "derived from the conservative religious views of Islamic fundamentalism" is unnecessarily complex and possibly inaccurate. Derived from Islamic fundamentalism avoids taking a position as to whether these views are conservative.Timothy Usher 21:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, now it reads: "Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism." According to WP:NOR fundamentalism is not synonymous to "deeply held beliefs" (even though the word stems from "fundamental"). The Fundamentalism article says:

"Fundamentalist" describes a movement to return to what is considered the defining or founding principles of the religion. It has especially come to refer to any religious enclave that intentionally resists identification with the larger religious group in which it originally arose, on the basis that fundamental principles upon which the larger religious group is supposedly founded have become corrupt or displaced by alternative principles hostile to its identity. [...] In Islam they (fundamentalists) are jama'at (Arabic: (religious) enclaves with connotations of close fellowship) self-consciously engaged in jihad (struggle) against Western culture that suppresses authentic Islam (submission) and the God-given (Shari'ah) way of life.

Can anyone find a quote, which proves that Islamists resist identification with Ummah? Btw. there are contradictions in what WP sees as fundamental to Islam: Fundamentalism states it's the Qur'an and Hadith but Islamic fundamentalism states it's the Qur'an and Sunnah. Can anyone enlighten us, what islamic fundamentalists solely believe in? Raphael1 21:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course, both should read Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah, or simply Qur'an and Hadith. It's hard to believe this was anything other than an oversight in both cases. Surely it is not a "contradiction" - unless there is an editor who specically meant that Islamic fundamentalists do *not* think the prophet's biography important, while another insisted that Islamic fundamentalists ignore the prophet's sayings? That seems unlikely.Timothy Usher 22:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It now appears you've added the contradiction tag on the basis of (trivial) contradictions between Fundamentalism and Islamic Fundamentalism articles, not between this article and another.Timothy Usher 22:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I've included the contradiction template to the Islamism and Islamic Fundamentalism, because they are both refering to the other article in its definition. But if A uses B in it's definition and at the same time B uses A, neither A nor B is defined. Raphael1 22:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not correct. You are applying the logic of proof to semantics.Timothy Usher 22:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it not? Are you ready for a test? "Dachtel" is an austrian word for "Ohrfeige", and "Ohrfeige" is the german word for "Dachtel". Do you know what I'm talking about? Raphael1 23:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

If the definition of a word consists *only* of another word, you are right that the definition would be vacuous. However, this is not what the article says. If it read "Islamism is defined as Islamic Fundamentalism", you'd have a point. In this case, the solution would not be a contradiction tag, but to propose that the articles be merged.Timothy Usher 23:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Still the sentence "Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism" doesn't make sence, if "Islamic fundamentalism" gets (even partially) defined by Islamism. Raphael1 23:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

To say that doesn't make sense is too sweeping. But I'm not sure why Islamic fundamentalism would be defined as Islamism. Perhaps there is a problem in the Islamic fundamentalism article. I'll take a closer look.Timothy Usher 00:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

So if islamic fundamentalists are enclaves self-consciously engaged in jihad (struggle) against Western culture that suppresses authentic Islam and Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism, why doesn't the definition of Islamism include a reference to the "struggle against Western culture"? Raphael1 22:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it should, as this does seem to be a common thread. It does. Read the whole article.Timothy Usher 22:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It does get mentioned in a quote from Daniel Pipes in the "Islam and Islamism" section, but it isn't included in the articles definition. Raphael1 22:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

See also the "History" section. Perhaps it should be included in the definition, though I think it rather implicit.Timothy Usher 22:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)