Talk:Islamism/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about Islamism. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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Deen Sentence

My source MuslimsofUmreka is you. How is this not precisely what you've been saying on the discussion page? Please explainTimothy Usher 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Statements by wikipedia editors are unacceptable and non-notable as a source and would be original research anyway. Find a better source; if it's true it should be easy. Also, please refrain from personal attacks such as your above comment comparing your fellow editor to a murderer. Thank you. Deuterium 07:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Please note that the Deuterium has only now joined Wikipedia, and is in all liklihood a sock puppet of one of the editors above.

I agree that their statements are non-notable as sources, and should not be seen as authoritative.

Do re-read. No one was compared to a murderer. Anonymous user 24.7.141.159 threatened - in boldface - to "escalate this issue" in an unspecified way; I asked what he was threatening.Timothy Usher 07:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The Deen sentence :
"Many Islamists oppose the term, as it suggests their philosophy to be a political extrapolation from Islam rather than a straightforward expression of Islam as a way of life".

I can see a problem with this sentence, although the main thrust I think is correct. I would suggest a rewording taking into account that to classic muslim thought politics is an indivisible part of a "way of life". If fact all of life is subject to "Allah" (in Islamic thinking) so politics cannot be exluded from their activities. For instance an implimentation of Sharia law has intrisically a political element. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 10:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

ReWrite Article with sources

I removed everything taht was just opinion and that could not be verified. The article should be rewriten USING sources. The article should also not be written by people who has anti-Islamic Bias. It appears the people who wrote the orginal article are anti-Muslim and want to define proper Islam and fundamentalist Islam using their OWN OPINIONS. This is not your personal essay, this is an encyclopedia. Everything must be verifiable and must have sources. I would recommend that the original people who wrote the article not contribute any of the orginal biased, anti-Islam garbage they had contributed in the past. MuslimsofUmreka 10:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

MuslimsofUmreka, I am not one of the original contributors, and I too see much that could be expanded upon or improved. Note that nothing in this article attempts to define "proper Islam" - it is actually you who have been doing so here on the talk page by asserting that all true Muslims are Islamists. You start with that premise and then say that ipso facto those who define Islamism presume to define "proper Islam". That is your POV. It is also not up to you to say who should be banned from editted Islam-related topics based on your perception of bias. I've no aversion to including the Islamist POV. However, your recent edit is considered vandalism; such changes will be reverted.Timothy Usher 10:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Crazy people trying to impose their elaborate religious bull**** on everyone else starting with WP. Like an onion, you peel off this layer and that and are back where you started.

Please sign your contributions from now on please. Secondly, you are as much as a part of the problem as anyone on the opposite side is. It helps to look in the mirror before pointing fingers. 24.7.141.159 11:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I hear you saying I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone on the opposite side. Now I hear you saying it helps to look in the mirror before pointing fingers.

Please sign your comments by adding these to the end of your comment: ~~~~. 24.7.141.159 12:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I reverted this to a pre-edit war state. Also, you are closing in on 3rr, MuslimsofUmreka. Kyaa the Catlord 12:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Proper Sources and the right way to write this article

With term Islamist and Islamism, you can not write an article in this format. Use the article nigger as an example. It gives an evolution of the word and how different people have used it and view it. Saying that some people follow islamist ideology is a matter off opinion, not fact. You can not prove that somebody is an Islamist unless the openely declare and say, "I am an Islamist." The article should be reformatted to include quotes from different political leaders and people on how they view this term. Examples:

Progressive Muslims support a secular government.
Sunni Muslims and other Muslim sects in general follow the Quran to the letter with strict tafsir that is based on hadiths. They consider themselves to be just plain Muslims.
The media generally identifies Islamists as terrorist groups.
In the arabic language, the prefix Mu is added to Islam to donate the term Muslim which means one who follows Islam. This is the correct technical term to indetify followers of Islam with. Islamist is considered politically incorrect from this stand point.

The above are examples of how this article should be formatted. 165.230.73.18 13:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

MuslimsofUmreka established the preceding sock puppet this very morning - same edits, same issues, same tone - to get around WP:3RR.Timothy Usher 13:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. I've given up on reverting this, MuslimsofUrethra, empty victory is yours. Kyaa the Catlord 13:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding sources and citations

I have begun to add citations and sources from different political thoughts on the term. I owuld recommend that the rest of the article be cleaned up and sources be added. Everything else lacks sources and seems to based on opinion. Wikipedia has a policy against orginal research. Everything that goes in wikipedia must have a published source. 165.230.73.20 15:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Timothy Usher is deleting comments off the talk page

I wanted to alert everyone here that User: Timothy Usher is deleting comments critical of his position on this talk page. Here is an example: [Removing my comments]. This isn't the first time he has edited other people's comments on the talk page and now he has moved up to deleting items he thinks are disruptive to his position. I am advising people to be vigilant over edits here. Oh, the official claim of "breaking up his comments" is bogus because User:Timothy Usher uses the same style of posting comments. I have already altered an Administrator of this behavior. 24.7.141.159 15:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

all relevant users should attempt to calm down - the comments refered to above are all very emotive and also being interspersed in danger of losing the user signatures. Resorting to coarse language also is not ideal. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop breaking up other people's posts, 24.7.141.159, and the won't be deleted. That's not an "official claim", but a verifiable one in the page history. Wikipedia isn't all about you and what you have to say about other users.Timothy Usher 19:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Before you get up to lecture me, I'd like to point everyone towards [just one example] of many times where you not only broke up my post, but in this case you compared me to a murderer. Don't cry foul when you are doing the same thing to others. Please remember WP:NPA and Wikipedia:Civility before responding. 24.7.141.159 19:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Once again, I did not compare you to a murderer. You had issued unpecified (and bold-faced) threats to another user to "escalate the issue", and then began threatening me when I came to his defense. I asked you what you had in mind. Perhaps the link was a little much, but you have been extremely hostile and personalized to other users and shouldn't be entirely surprised that your hyperbolic posts evoke some bemusement and lament. Please stop your constant attacks on and abuse of other editors.Timothy Usher 19:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, until you and Obsidian showed up, we were having a very productive discussion on this talk page. Personally, I have great respect for Graft, Vector4F, Raphael1, and Kyaa for letting me speak my mind but more importantly, for them questioning and criticizing. Quite frankly, this place went to hell when you came here with your anti-Islamic attitude where you accused me and other editors of being Islamist and you compared me to a murderer. You need to take a WikiBreak because you happen to be here to waste time and tie up editors in useless arguments. By the way, great job deflecting commentary on how you use the same posting style of comments on which you altered my critical response of you. As it stands, it looks like you've given up and conceded all the points being argued above. I'm fully expecting an apology for being compared to a murderer, being falsely accused of making legal threats, and for having my comments altered. I'm also waiting for evidence as to how or why Bukhari and Aisha are liars and you claim that Islam somehow has no concept of "din" in scripture. Lastly, I need to know why you seem to think that any Muslim who adheres to scripture is automatically an Islamist in your eyes. Until that point, your arguments are nothing more than fabrications and emotionally dervied blabber which has no place in an encyclopedia. 24.7.141.159 03:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

"By the way, great job deflecting commentary on how you use the same posting style of comments on which you altered my critical response of you." Thanks! Positive reinforcement works wonders with me.

Didn’t accuse you of being an Islamist, compare you to a murderer, say there is no concept of din in scripture, say Bukhari is a liar or that Muslims who adhere to scripture are automatically Islamists. So you’ll have to take it up with whatever internal voices are telling you these things.

Did note that you made a legal threat in violation of WP:NLT. Also stated that if I had to guess (key word), I’d say Aisha were the liar in the Hadith I quoted, which could hardly surprise the many millions of muslims who take a dim view of Aisha and her father Abu Bakr, who succeeded Muhammad (get it now? try thinking a little more critically).Timothy Usher 04:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Let me demonstrate to everyone who insane and unstable you are.

Your claim now: Didn’t accuse you of being an Islamist

Reality: Yes you said, you claim deep offense that we label you Islamists! referring to your edit on: 04:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC). Then you proceeded to prove to yourself that I was somehow an Islamist with an accusatory line of question in multiple talk page contributions. You then only stopped when I told you about my Catholic heritage. When will your lies stop? Furthermore, you have been labeling MuslimsofUmreka as an Islamist. This comes from your 05:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC) edit: If you want to say I’m discriminating against you and your Islamist cohorts, that’s fine. Ouch, when will you stop digging?

Your claim now: Didn’t... compare you to a murderer

Reality: You actually compared me to a murderer in your 05:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC) edit where you said: Can we ask in what way you are considering escalating the issue? Do you mean like Mohammed Bouyeri? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, it's just important that other editors know what you're threatening so we can plan accordingly. The key here is that Mohammed Bouyeri murdered someone for having disagreeable views. Ouch, caught again Timmy Boy. We now have two lies exposed. Then in your 19:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC) contribution, you said perhaps the link was a little much... So you admitted doing it but then claim you didn't. Everything is referencable and you just digging a hole for yourself by continuing to lie.

Your claim now: Didn’t say... there is no concept of din in scripture and Didn’t say... Muslims who adhere to scripture are automatically Islamists.

Reality: If it is really true that there is a concept of din in Islamic scripture, then you cannot label Muslims as being Islamists when they apply political ideology to their way of life. In your 09:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC) edit, you said: I never contested that Islam in the form taught and practiced by Muhammad supports Islamism. You then continued your logic-devoid response by saying Muslims following scripture-based Islam would lead Muslims to live in a constate state of war and you feel that if papering over the original practices is needed, I'm not about to challenge them. In other words, if a Muslim follows his religion based on scripture (look up the definition of scripture please), then that Muslim is an Islamist. The arrogant attitude took a new high when you claimed that Muslims who accept Western government as an advance... are not Islamists. Not only do I disagree with that statement, I find it extremely offensive because of your elitest mentality. As it stands, your position is that any Muslim following scripture is technically an Islamist and puts them in the same boat as Osama bin Laden and others. It also suggests that Islam fundamentally breads terrorists unless they accept Western conventions on the separation of Church and State--effectively removed their scripture from being a legitimate source and instead adopting whatever FEELS right to you. In the end, your stance has very far reaching consequences that cannot be condoned by anyone--Muslim or not. It goes to show that the very fears I have spoken to at length on this page are very real and I will continue to pursue the cause to be sure we don't malign Muslims following basic tenants of their faith. I took you task on this point in my response on 11:05, 5 April 2006 (UTC) to which you still haven't provided a counter point to. Liar and fabricator yet again.

Are you okay? Can I help? We need to figurre out what are we going to do with this rage which is consuming you. Maybe other wiki people havent been very nice to you. I am so sorry youre going through all this. It must feel really awful.

Please dont move my comments to make it seem im addressing another, it is your pain i am feeling right now.67.188.110.197

I disagree with breaking up a persons comments. I have asked an Admin to ban User:67.188.110.197. Hrana98 08:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Your claim now: Didn’t say... Bukhari is a liar.

Reality: In your 05:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC) edit, you provided us the Bukhari Hadith about Muhammad possibly being poisoned. In your diatribe leading up to it, in reference to the Hadith you said: Though it's probably a lie, at least you would have heard of it. I then showed you a conflicting Hadith by Shih Muslim that stated Muhammad questioned the lady for why she wanted to poison him. I also asked you to provide proof that Bukhari is a liar. As you did here, you put the blame on Aisha. Why not be a man and admit you are wrong? Yet another lie exposed.

Now you are claiming this: if I had to guess (key word), I’d say Aisha were the liar in the Hadith I quoted." Can you please provide proof of this? You can't and therefore questioning the character of a woman admired by Muslims sounds disingenuous.

You then keep running your mouth by pulling more claims out of that place where the sun doesn't shine by saying (referring to the Hadith): hardly surprise the many millions of muslims who take a dim view of Aisha and her father Abu Bakr, who succeeded Muhammad

Please provide evidence to back up this claim. The only people who have any contention for Abu Bakr are Shia. Out of the 1 billion or more Muslims, they comprise a very small minority. Even then, many Shia still respect Aisha and Abu Bakr. The best part of your line is how you try to make it more important than it really is by using a big term such as "millions." The fact is when you are talking about Muslims numbering in the billion range, a few million here and there is a very small percentage. For evidence to this, please refer to Aisha#Sunni_and_Shia_views_of_Aisha and then for population numbers go to Shi'a#Demographics. Chalk this up as another loss for you.

Now you keep harping a legal threat that was never made. Could it be just another fabrication on your part? It sure is. If it is not, then can you please cut and paste the quote where I made an explicit legal threat? Without posting the quote (which does not exist), you are again LYING! Please don't try to rewrite my comments to make a quote where one didn't exist.

Your rather hilarious request now: Please stop your constant attacks on and abuse of other editors.

So far, you've made up claims, you've attempted to question me on your own fabrications, you've lied constantly, you've edited/deleted comments critical of you, you've deflected questions and harassed editors who disagree with you. I think there are two important points that you must consider. It is very hard to take someone like you seriously and that you are hopelessly outgunned in the knowledge department by the editors on this page. By the way, when can I expect a response to my [11:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)] contribution where you claimed to be doing the right thing by standing up to another editor with this charge: If you want to say I’m discriminating against you and your Islamist cohorts, that’s fine. I took you task on that too. I await your response but I'll understand if you want scurry away into a hole after being expose like this on Wikipedia. 24.7.141.159 06:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA.Timothy Usher 06:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

DUDE YOU GOT OWNED BY USER:24. Many of us have been watching this talk page and getting a kick out of you pwning yourself at the hands of User:24. 216.118.97.211

Please also read WP:SOCK.Timothy Usher 06:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment reinserted due to its removal

I don't have an opinion to give on Islamism. This thread is being followed on an outside forum where the general opinion is User:24 having owned you. I'm not anyone's sock puppet either. Hrana98 07:07, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Hrana is so obviously this 24 guy its not even funny I dont know if you are his sock puppet but you certanly are him.67.188.110.197

Isn't it strange that both you and User:Timothy Usher seem to be saying the same things regarding me and User:24? I'm going to go out on a limb and say both of you are the same person. I'm not User:24 and searching my page contributions will show my presence on these pages for a very long time. User:24 needs to make a user name because I have asked this Talk page to be semi-protected. Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection Hrana98 08:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Totally! Race and gender are so yesterday. We are all one. Thank you so much for seeing this. I dont mean to be rude though I sometimes am but can we like start taking about islamism? Maybe this isnt important but the ppage is called talk islamism and Im getting a little confused67.188.110.197

Although I won't pretend to understand the diatribe at the beginning of your comment, I do agree with the end. Please stop the reversions and comment interruption. I am here to stop the censorship and lunacy present on these pages. Show me that it is over by adding constructive comments on the article. Thank you. Hrana98 09:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

You are right there is a lot of censorship and lunacy here i too have been a victim so if you can stop it thats great. I think the article was a lot better before people did whatever they did too it and its really sad that they froze it like thisn didnt Catlord write this?67.188.110.197

Comment reinserted due to its removal

So now that people are laughing at you, they are my sock puppet? I just did a quick nslockup on the IP above and it is clear across the country. I only post from my own IP address which is much more identifiable than a User name since my IP doesn't change. Nice try though. When will you respond to my comment? It sounds like you've given up. 24.7.141.159 06:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

So now it is a personal attack because I exposed your lies? The only thing to do now is either respond appropriately and concede these points or call in mediation. I'm sure once the Wikipedia community at large sees what you've done here, then we'll really see fireworks. 24.7.141.159 06:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a great idea. You are shamelessly violating policy after policy.Timothy Usher 06:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment reinserted due to its removal

Is there a policy on lying and fabricating followed by whining and crying? Respond to concede the points and maybe you can still save some self-respect. 24.7.141.159 06:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

This page has been protected because of reverting by many different editors. Solve this here on the talk page. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 21:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Lock Talks for editing

The page is locked from editing. I would like to make changes to the article with sources. And I would like to cite them. The previous versions have no cited sources. Not only are the previous versions speculation, 90% of it is not verifiable. It goes completely against Wikipedia's rules and guideleines. I would liek to edit the page with sourced information and not original research. If you take a look at the firts 5 new paragraphs, you will notice that the yare cited and sourced. The rest of the page needs the same to be done. MuslimsofUmreka 21:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Your previous edits seem to have consisted of deleting the article. This doesn't really make you a very credible editor. Graft 21:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I now see that you made a number of credible though controversial edits. Graft 21:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

MuslimsofUmreka, your stance seems to be that 1) all Muslims *must*, as a matter of religion, be Islamists,and 2) the term Islamist is inherently offensive to all Muslims.

Other editors follow the Anglophone community as a whole is thinking the term "Islamism" relevant and appropriate, it is widely used and that is why there is an article discussing it. We do not all agree that there is no distinction between Islam and Islamism. You've made it your task, it seems, to shout down these opinions without engaging them.

I've no problem with you adding relevant information, but your approach thusfar has been to suppress other POVs, not even really arguing with them but yelling at them, complaining of "racism" and removing them from the article. Wikipedia reflects multiple POVs. It is not a soapbox for your religious interpretations alone, nor is it a forum to excommunicate words you do not like from the English language.

You leave barely-coherent threats on my talk page and drag administrators into a conflict largely of your own creation, while not affecting the slightest pretense of following the rules yourself (personal attacks, sock puppets for starters). If you wish to work productively and collaboratively from now on, you will have a greater impact.Timothy Usher 21:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

My problem with the previous version is that it is unsourced and not cited. When talking about a term as controversial as this, you need to cite sources. And you need to show all viewpoints. I didnt get a chance to add the citation for the most recent stuff I added because of the edit war going on and now the page is locked. To start, I am gonna post cited information from all viewpoints on this talk page, then we'll agree whether or not it is a good start. Daniel pipes quotes are alreay in there. I will post up citation from the Muslim side on this talk page later on. Right now I have a lot of homework to do and I have wasted a lot off time on the internet. I will put up the citations by tonight. MuslimsofUmreka 21:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

A whatever, I'll just post them up now. "Islam is an Arabic word meaning "submission (to Allah)". It has an etymological relationship to other Arabic words, such as Salaam, meaning "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" is related to the word Islam and means "one who surrendered" or submitted (to Allah)."

"Muslims see submission to Allah as a sign of distinction; this term has no negative connotations. In this view, submission means serving the will of Allah above and beyond one's own goals."

Posted from: http://www.explainthat.info/is/islam.html

"Ozturk has the quaint idea -- at least for many -- that religion is about religion and not about politics. I was told this in no uncertain terms when I asked him point-blank, "Are you an Islamist?" He shot back an immediate and firm, no. "I hate the term Islamist because it becomes the name of a faction and an ideology. Islam is not an ideology, it is for all human beings."

So how do you define yourself? I asked. "If I have to label myself I would call myself a person belonging to the religion of the Qur'an. I am Muslim and I am trying to be Muslim. The Qur'an wants us to be Muslims, not Islamists."

posted from; http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2001/519/intrvw.htm

"The difference is that Islamism (and Islamist) are widely recognized as offensive terms."

"Dictionary definition: Islamism n. Offensive The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. - Islamist n."

Posted from; http://www.correntewire.com/christianist_actually_a_word

MuslimsofUmreka 22:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we know what Islam and Muslim < SLM mean, thank you. You and sock puppet keep mentioning this as if others disagree only from ignorance. Not so.

Your quotes prove nothing other than that some other Muslims agree with you. They are called Islamists to distinguish them from the vast number of Muslims who, regardless of God’s purported injunctions, do not see things in as absolute terms as you do.

You can say these others are not “real Muslims”, as you have before, but that is just your POV, and to my knowledge also the Islamist POV, a view I attempted to fairly represent in the Deen sentence which you kept reverting.

What we need is a section devoted to why Islamists (as they are called by others) believe this term is inaccurate and unnecessary, because all they are doing is following the immutable religion of God in all aspects of life. Since this page is about this very philosophy, it’s a great place to do it. However, the page cannot be only about what Islamists say for themselves, nor can it be about why you hate this term or feel it objectively inaccurate. So if you avoid slanting the entire article to your polemic purposes, and allow paragraphs you dislike to be provisionally re-added, under the same standards as your own - reasoned, civil and multi-POV discussion on this page, I would be fine with that.Timothy Usher 22:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Multiple POV is a really bad idea. Instead, everything should be sourced and quoted from existing articles and published sources. Such as the daniel pipes statements, the dictionary statements, the statements that state were the term Islamism originated from. No multiple POV, everything should be cited and sourced. MuslimsofUmreka 22:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the sources you've cited is that they're often trivial, don’t demonstrate what you wish them to, and add little or nothing beyond window dressing for your POV.

The first link is about Islam generally and adds nothing to what we knew already. What’s the point?

The second proves that Yasar Nuri Ozturk says so-and-so. Okay, so he does. What does this mean beyond that he says this? If you wish to write Ozturk believes, okay, keeping in mind provisions of undue weight.

Your dictionary definition is uncited. I will help you, it is from Merriam-Webster Online [[1]], which, while presumably reliable, does not pretend to be thorough. It doesn’t prove that there is not another definition of Islamism in wide currency today, as a simple google search [[2]] will demonstrate. Dictionaries are based on usage, not vice-versa, and I’ve little doubt we can find another dictionary which includes the meaning ato which the title of this article refers.

As far as “Christianist”, I’ve never heard this term, but if people are using it to mean something distinct from or a certain type of Christianity, by all means, start a page. Did you expect me to be offended?

Multiple POV is *not* a bad idea, it is wikipedia policy. You are misunderstanding if you believe our goal is to arrive at one indisputable objective truth.

Further, there is a very large amount of unsourced information in your version of the article, with just as much POV. I am not sure why we should see this as superior to the article as it stood. In any case, if you wish to hold others to a standard, you should follow it yourself.Timothy Usher 23:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I wasnt expecting you to be offended by christianist. Iwas just giving a source. If I wanted you to see christainist, I would have quoted it. But as you can see I did not quote that part of the article. Regardless, what you view Islam to be is from your point of view. what Islam really is is what was descirbed in the quran and hadith. Muslims are told to follow these two to the letter. The more moderate version of Islam created by some progressive movements contradict the Quran in that they believe premarital sex is okay, homosexuality is okay, usury is okay etc. etc. These have clearly been forbidden in the quran and mentioined that those who violate them will be held accountable for their deeds. Progressive Muslims try to abrogate verses from teh Quran so they in fact can be considered not to be real Muslims. Regardless, everything that you quote about islamism should be quoted. There are numerous sites to prove your point of view. I would recommend that you cite the sources, not just formulate an opinion essay. And make this article neutral as possible. From the Muslim point of view, I will cite sources and post them in here. MuslimsofUmreka 23:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"what Islam really is is what was descirbed in the quran and hadith."

As you know, hadith can be and are hotly disputed. There is no claim, at least, that they are the words of God himself.

My POV is not that Islamism isn't real Islam, or that moderate Islam is. But Islam is more than just an idea, it is a historical phenomenon with real followers. If nearly all followers of the religion called Islam worshipped Muhammad alongside God, it would be accurate to say that Islam entails the worship of Muhammad. The fact of its heresy (or rather that some would call it heresy) could be mentioned somewhere in the article, but could not be used as a reason to delete the statements or redefine terms. From an encyclopedic perspective, Islam is what those who call themselves Muslims do and believe. Whether they are "real Muslims" - and in some ways I am inclined to agree with you here - is beside the point.

For that matter, I'd consider putting the sayings attributed to Muhammad alongside those attributed to God, prohibiting depictions or negative characterizations of Muhammad as if he were God, etc., is heresy from the most logical Islamic perspective, but I would’t try to push that in the article, as it would only be my own extrapolation from first principles.

“From the Muslim point of view, I will cite sources and post them in here.”

Alright, but in the meantime, I ask that we either 1) remove all unsourced statements, including yours or 2) restore the unsourced statments of others, at least provisionally, and work on the article lawfully and incrementally instead of by wholesale rewrites. Would this be okay?Timothy Usher 00:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

If we go with option 1, that would mean more than half the current article would have to go. But I think it would be better too remove the unsourced information for now. Or we could go with option number 2 and add [citation needed] marks by statements that need citation. There should be certain precautions taken to prevent chaos and more edit wars. The best option I see to prevent this is, copy and paste the entire article (with everything in it from the previous versions), not onto this talk page, but maybe to my user talk page or yours (dont know if that will work but this talk page has gotten really huge. That is why I think it should be posted to a talk page that isnt that big yet. Then we will work on organizing the article on that talk page with the proper citations. And if we come out with a version that we all agree on, we can ask an administrator to unlock the page and copy and paste the new version into the article. We will try too include every view point with as much citation as possible. How does that sound? MuslimsofUmreka 00:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as the unsourced information here has gone on being unsourced for quite a while, I say they all be removed.

The only justification for keeping unsourced information is if it's reasonably certain that those sources will be documented soon. That isn't the case here, so remove it all. Amibidhrohi 01:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, let's do that. But let MuslimsofUmreka keep in mind, the mere presentation of a link isn't always sufficient. Some of his additions seemed worthy enough. I just want to make sure we deal with it in discussion. I don't think we need a different page. Isn't there some way to archive? I don't know it, though.

I definitely *do not* agree to some long administrator intersession intercession (not every day we can use those words together!), particularly as I'm not clear that the current situation has been handled fairly. Discussion pages work fine as long as participants follow the rules, including WP:3RR, WP:NPA, WP:NLT, WP:SOCK. If administrators act, it should be to enforce these rules, not to arbitrarily preside over new procedures.Timothy Usher 02:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I wrote,

Why is this page frozen? Did someones right to force their religious extremism onto wikipedia get violated? That would be really really bad.

Help me out folks what are the rules here, is it that if this Umreka guy doesnt get his baby Islamist way he runs crying to mommy and everyone has to go home?

Then Umreka deleted it.

He also said on my talk page, “Anonymous IP address user, please stop being gay.”

What are you fantasizing about over there Umreka? It sounds really destructive. And kind of wierd. Whatever happened to you, Im really sorry.67.188.110.197

Anonymous user, please sign your comments from now on. You can do this by typing four tildes.

Meanwhile, what part of WP:NPA does MuslimsofUmreka not understand? Anon has a point - MOU cries about the rules, but doesn't make any attempt to follow them himself.Timothy Usher 03:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Islamiyya

So, the "Encyclopedia of the Orient" claims (here) that Islamiyya is the Arabic term for Islamist and is used by Islamists to self-identify. Unfortunately I haven't seen this statement anywhere else. Anyone familiar with Arabic usage, in particular maybe Egyptian, able to comment on this? Graft 02:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Graft, good to see you're back. Islamiyya is probably best described as something being "Islamic" as Timothy has said. However, the term is generally used in language to describe anything that can be Islamic. For example, if the local grocery story is providing meat congruent with Islamic teachings then the store would be referred to as being "Islamiyya." Furthermore, this isn't just an Arabic term but is also present in Persian, Urdu, Punjabi and Farsi. 24.7.141.159 03:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe that just means "Islamic". As established, Islamists claim that they are merely following Islam as it was intended; it is others who call them Islamists.Timothy Usher 03:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this agrees with my meager prior understanding - but I meant more with regards to connotation rather than denotation. Seems like especially the more radical groups would want some way to self-identify and set themselves apart from the flock. Groups seeking to coalesce a movement around an identity might want to adopt the more pan-Islamic, inclusive self-label (calling themselves mere Muslims), but it seems like at least some Islamist groups would want to have a more exclusive label for themselves, to separate themselves from "Muslims" they don't like. But maybe not. Graft 17:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

New article

I want to copy and paste all versions of the article in this section. By all versions I mean a merged version of the main article. But this page seems to be getting uncontrollably large. Can somebody archive it. Everything in italics will not be included in this article. Also those who add stuff to the article should not sign it. Leave everything in this section unsigned. MuslimsofUmreka 03:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Graft, please scroll up and toss in Vector4F and my proposed intros as well. They are in gray text boxes above. 24.7.141.159 03:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

We will start by merging the introductions. Edit what you want below but do not sign it. Add stuff together, mix it up until ,delete what you want until we come up with an Introduction that we can all agree on. MuslimsofUmreka 03:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a dominant and exclusive philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law.

- The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Many Muslims oppose the term, as it suggests their philosophy to be a political extrapolation from Islam rather than a straightforward expression of Islam as a way of life. In contrast, some Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify.^{[citation needed]} Additionally, it is often applied to Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.

- It first appeared in eighteenth-century France as a synonym for Islam. It attained its modern usage in late 1970s French academia, then to be loaned into English, where it eventually displaced “Islamic fundamentalism.”^[3]

Islamism is defined as, "a political ideology that adherents would apply to contemporary governance and politics, and which they propagate through political and social activism." ^[4] The term has orgins from eighteenth-century France as a synonym for Islam. It attained its modern usage in late 1970s French academia, then to be loaned into English, where it eventually displaced "Islamic fundamentalism." ^[5] The use of the term Islamism is quite controversial and is viewed differently among different groups of people.

The media usually labels people who promote acts of terror as promoting Islamism. Over the years, different peaceful groups with in Islam have been considered to promote Islamism. The term is difficult to define because many Muslims consider themselves to just be Muslims and not Islamists or to promote Islamism. In the Arabic language, the prefix Mu is added to Islam to form the word Muslim which means one who follows Islam. In english, an ist is usually added to the end of a word to denote one who follows a particulary ideology. Example would the term sexist. One who discriminates on the basis of sex is said to be sexist.

Citations

 	+ 	#^  Islamism, fascism and terrorism (Part 1)
 	+ 	#^  http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/Terms.htm

Your first paragraph:

Islamism is defined as, "a political ideology that adherents would apply to contemporary governance and politics, and which they propagate through political and social activism." 1

This definition, taken from an off-hand comment by the editor of AsiaTimes, is totally unhelpful as it could be applied to nearly any political ideology. Also, while Islamists do use political and social activism, others like Al Qaeda and Hamas (for starters) resort to terrorist attacks and other forms of violence.

“The term has orgins from eighteenth-century France as a synonym for Islam. It attained its modern usage in late 1970s French academia, then to be loaned into English, where it eventually displaced "Islamic fundamentalism."“

This is informative and appropriate, indeed, the wording is mine after your source. It should probably lead the second paragraph.

“The use of the term Islamism is quite controversial and is viewed differently among different groups of people.”

This sentence should read merely “The term Islamism is controversial.” - the rest adds nothing. Further, it should not be in the opening paragraph, but maybe leading the third. First, we should say what people mean today when they say Islamism.

Your second paragraph:

“The media usually labels people who promote acts of terror as promoting Islamism.”

Unsourced. And untrue - no one labels the IRA as Islamists, for example. Those terrorists labelled Islamist (when they're not just called "the terrorists") label themselves when they say, we are extremely pious Muslims and this is why we are doing what we are doing.

“Over the years, different peaceful groups with in Islam have been considered to promote Islamism.”

This should be maybe in paragraph four, when we can discuss the violence/terrorist aspect and mention that there are many Islamist groups who use peaceful means to attain their goals. And also mention that not all Islamists can be considered extremists, as in Turkey.

“The term is difficult to define because many Muslims consider themselves to just be Muslims and not Islamists or to promote Islamism.”

Non-sequitur: how does the fact that many Muslims consider themselves just be muslims make Islamism difficult to define?

“In the Arabic language, the prefix Mu is added to Islam to form the word Muslim which means one who follows Islam. In english, an ist is usually added to the end of a word to denote one who follows a particulary ideology. Example would the term sexist. One who discriminates on the basis of sex is said to be sexist.”

This is all totally irrelevent. What are you trying to say?

In sum, there are a few ideas we can use, I don't see it desirable to merge this with anything.Timothy Usher 04:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm done. I refuse to take part in this since it is simply pandering to MOU's forcible destruction of what had been a very positive, collaborative effort. In locking this piece in a form that he'd unilaterally crafted, whoever the admin was handed him the brass ring. Sorry guys, it was nice, but this is not worth my fucking time. Kyaa the Catlord 06:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see you go. Once this place settles down hopefully we can continue where we left off. 24.7.141.159 06:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I hear you saying youre sorry to see Kyaa go. Now I hear you saying once this place settles down, we can continue where we left off.67.188.110.197

Ha! Reflective listening! I love it!Timothy Usher 07:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay before we move forward with this. Can somebody put some of the stuff in archive. This page is long and it takes a while for it to load and forever for me to scroll down. Regardless. Iwant to propose new rules on how we can do this. Its gonna be hard unless some the stuff on this talk page is archived. What I want to do is keep the raw introductory section in tact (as it is now). Then I want everybody to propose a new introductory section below it. Start by titling a new section; surround the new section title with "===" on each side, and then place the following in the title "Proposed Version #" and were tehre is a '#' put the number of the proposed version. If it is the first new proposed version, put 1, if it is the secon put 2, and so forth. Then sign below it with the tildas and put it in italics, such as this, MuslimsofUmreka 18:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC), but before we do that, can an admin archive this page? MuslimsofUmreka 18:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to say that we will vote on which poroposed version to go with. If we cant agree with one, we will keep writing new versions until one is produced that we all agree with. I am gonna let others put up their proposed versions first. I'll let two other people start it off first. MuslimsofUmreka 18:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC

Post 9/11 Issues

"However, given the instability caused by the invasion of Iraq in 2003, it seems that in order to bring that region under control again, there will be some sort of cooperation between the West and Islamist groups". This is an opinion, not an encyclopedic fact. I think it should be removed. Dberliner 22:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Fighting over Beliefs is WRONG!

I think that the Islamic groups should not be fighting in Iraq over religions. Everyone belives something different and they don't have to change other peoples beliefs to what they belive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.179.56 (talk) 20:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

So what's your point? Your opinion does not matter here. --Hamster X (talk) 13:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the narrow definition of islamism's role as "an Islamic militant, anti-democratic movement, bearing a holistic vision of Islam whose final aim is the restoration of the caliphate." is not NPOV. Especially considering the source is the 9/11 Commision Report and the immediate context for this definition is the statement that "Islamist terrorism is an immediate derivative of Islamism." 79.68.107.72 (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The idea is that since not everyone agrees on the definition of Islamism to give more than one definition, and definitions from notable sources. The "broad" definition could be called favorable to Islamism (the guy who wrote it is very much in favor of freedom of expression for Islamists) and the narrow one unfavorable. That a source has a poor opinion of Islamists may or may not make the source un-neutral in its POV, but it doesn't mean the article that quotes it is POV ... anymore than the favorable opinion of the "broad" definition makes the article un-neutral in POV.

PS, please put your posts at the bottom of the page. otherwise they are hard to find. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Etiquette

Do not remove or alter other users' comments. If anyone does this going forward, I will block them immediately. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 17:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)d like to once again alert all users to wikipedia policies WP:NPA, WP:3RR and WP:SOCK. Please read them and follow them if you are not already doing so. Following them will help keep our discussions productive.Timothy Usher 20:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate you remindng everyone to follow established policy. I certainly hope this means that your actions in the future won't be a reason for me to rerequesting semi-protection. Last thing, I know you have been posting here along with Vector4F, Kyaa, Graft, and User:24. User:Katefan0 has been very generous by contributing time to get this place back in order and s/he has also archived the talk page. Can you people please let Katefan0 know if any threads need to be pulled out of archive? Thanks. Hrana98 20:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Err. Rather a lot got archived, including some active threads. Can we be a LITTLE more conservative and only archive things that have been dead for, say, three weeks? Graft 20:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I haven't looked at the talk page conversation becuase little of it seemed productive. If there are specific threads you'd like to bring back, go ahead. Just cut and paste from the latest archive above. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 21:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

My revert was based on WP:RPA. This does not constitute vandalism, or a basis for requesting page protection. I am still unclear what benefit you saw in restoring User:24.7.141.159's latest violations of WP:NPA, and would be curious to hear your explanation. Regardless, if this policy is followed, I've no reason to remove anyone's comments.Timothy Usher 20:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not here to discuss particulars of the various battles you had going on this talk page but what I can conclude is the behavior leading up to semiprotection was reprehensible. There are ample examples where you violated WP:NPA and made unfounded accusations against fellow editors. This spirit of playing a fact-finder and acting like moral police is shunned due largely to the fact it is offtopic, leads to flamewars, and is counterproductive to the aims of Wikipedia. Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia and deal with it via some other civil means. Regardless, censorship of a Talk page cannot be condoned and you were guilty of that by your own admission. Your desire to cite WP:RPA is problematic because it is not official WP policy and it is abused by one side of an argument reglularly (as cited on WP:RPA). Furthermore, as per WP:RPA, it would have been in the best interest of everyone for you to remove your own personal attacks before editing the other side's comments. I would urge you to ask an administrator to intervene before removing comments in the future. Hrana98 01:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I did not personally attack other editors. Your comment, "Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia and deal with it via some other civil means." recalls User:24.7.141.159's "Slander, whether electronic, has consequences in civil society and I'm willing to pursue those avenues." No one else was suggesting this type of thing, and I don't see why you are suggesting it to me; in fact to do as you suggest would violate WP:NLT as discussed. As you recognize, this is all quite off-topic, so if will you allow me to get back to the matter at hand, that would be greatly appreciated.Timothy Usher 01:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It is becoming quite clear that you are an argumentative editor with paranoid delusions. To claim that I'm making legal threats against you and violating WP:NLT is yet another baseless claim which you seem to be so good at making. If nothing else, you are clearly showing that you are the problem on this talk page. Since you obviously can't parse a simple English sentence, let me do it for you. "Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia..." means that I do not want to see any more battles or arguments by you with myself or any other editors in these talk pages. Doing so will prompt me to ask for Administrator actions against your account--it's that simple. The second part of the sentence kindly asked for you to "...deal with it via some other civil means." The word civil is defined in the context of social order as opposed to uncivilized behavior. In other words, deal with your problems like an intelligent, educated, and mature individual through open communication instead of playing the victim card. If you need to discuss this further, then move it to your talk page and remove it from here. Thank you. Hrana98 06:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

"It is becoming quite clear that you are an argumentative editor with paranoid delusions." Once again, read WP:NPA as well as WP:CIVILITY.

"...I do not want to see any more battles or arguments by you with myself or any other editors in these talk pages." There is nothing untoward about arguing on talk pages, with you (regardless of which account you use) or any other editor. We need to argue in order to come to informed agreement or at least reach NPOV. However, it's important that our arguments not contain personalized invective or threats.Timothy Usher 06:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Fabricating baseless claims of legal threats where none exist is poor attitude. Please refer to Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith when dealing with editors. Please do not bait editors with fabrications and follow guidelines presented in both Wikipedia:Etiquette and Wikipedia:Civility. Also, remember you aren't here to restort to mortal combat with other editors nor is it realistic to play the victim card. If you are unclear on these and other points, I would point you to Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground. Please honor my request to move this argument off the Talk:Islamism page. Thank you for participating and I fully expect that this is the last response from you. Hrana98 07:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

You wrote, “To claim that I'm making legal threats against you and violating WP:NLT is yet another baseless claim which you seem to be so good at making.”

Please re-read more carefully: I wrote “Your comment, "Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia and deal with it via some other civil means." recalls User:24.7.141.159's "Slander, whether electronic, has consequences in civil society and I'm willing to pursue those avenues." No one else was suggesting this type of thing, and I don't see why you are suggesting it to me; in fact to do as you suggest would violate WP:NLT as discussed.”

User:24.7.141.159's comment, as quoted, is by the most straightforward reading a violation of WP:NLT. Your latest comment does not threaten legal action, and I didn’t claim it did. Rather, you suggested that *I* take it up outside wikipedia, which I’ve no interest in doing.

“...I fully expect that this is the last response from you.”

This is a collaborative enterprise. You can no more bar me from responding than you can demand that I not argue with you or other editors, as you’d stated above when you wrote, "I do not want to see any more battles or arguments by you with myself or any other editors in these talk pages. Doing so will prompt me to ask for Administrator actions against your account--it's that simple." Timothy Usher 07:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not here to defend User:24 but I read the exchange on the Talk page. User:24 gave you a warning that s/he would go to the Moderation Cabal. That threat does not qualify under WP:NLT. Just like you are lecturing me about violating WP:NLT (when in fact I made no legal threats) opens the door to the possibility that you are assuming bad faith. Please refer to Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith. I would also suggest quoting sentences in context. Please honor my request to move this argument off the Talk:Islamism page. Thank you for participating and I fully expect that this is the last response from you. This request does not qualify making a victim-mentality inspired statement suggesting that I'm bar[ing] [you] from responding. Violating rules of our community will constitute a reason to ban any user, not just you. Are you asking to be banned? I certainly hope not. Hrana98 07:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This page

I'd like to remind everyone that this page is only for discussion of the article. I suggest the editors take the recent archiving as an opportunity to begin again. Let's assume everyone is going to be civil and move forward on that basis. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Start Fresh

Okay, I am gonna start fresh. Lets just get some facts straight about the term Islamist. This term is used as a label. People are labeled Islamist instead of just plain Muslim because people OUTSIDE of the Muslim community want to define Muslims and what Islam is. The term is derogatory just as the word nigger and spick (aimed at spanish peope). Muslims do not WANT to be labeled as Islamist, the only label they want is Muslim. When writing an article such as this, everything should come from other sources. Every statement should be quoted and talked about in a nuetral view point.

Also, please don't label groups as Islamist. Regardless how feel about them, when you label deobandis, wahabis, taliban, tableeghi jamaat, etc., you are only labeling them that from your own opinion. If you go to the nigger article, they talk about the term nigga, but they dont label people as niggers or nigga. They only mention factual information about the term and how it evolved into different terms. Labeling groups as Islamist is not recommended. Instead talk about the history off the term and how it came into being and how it is used today. The previous article labels people. It does not provide any factual information about what the term is. The only portion that provides factual information are the portions that were completely re-edited. They include the new introductory section and the basic definition of the term section. Aspects of Islamism sections were edited half way through. The fundamentalists section and political sections were re-edited. The rest of the article is still the same. MuslimsofUmreka 21:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Islamism is not properly an epithet, but a descriptive term with wide currency in contemporary English usage referring to, simply put, the belief that one or another interpretation of Islam should be the surpreme organizing principle of government. It typically used in a serious and matter-of-fact manner when discussing or analyzing political parties and trends, not as an insult or in anger. I, too, use the term, and do not presume either to “define Muslims and what Islam is”, or to deride Muslims or Islam generally. Nor do users of this term apply it to all or even most Muslims. Similarly, I am personally acquainted with Muslims who use the term to describe these political movements in a similarly descriptive non-epithet-like way.

Whether it is potentially misleading is another point, one which invariably arises on other articles about broad ideological labels as well.

Questions: 1) do you agree that there it can be useful to broadly distinguish between those who advocate Islam as the supreme organizing principle of government (for example the restoration of the Caliphate or rule of the judiciary) from those, Muslims or otherwise, who advocate relatively secular forms of government, 2) and if so, what terminology do you consider should be used the former case?

We should recognize that Islamists do not use this term for themselves, but assert that they are merely following and applying the religion of Islam as it was originally intended, and consider the term misleading in that it suggests Islamism to be a latter-day extrapolation from Islam rather than a straightforward application of the religion in its original intent: if one believes that Islam mandates political Islamism, then the term is redundant. Since the article is about Islamism, theirs is a very important POV which must be fairly, accurately and prominently represented.

Your point about sources is well-taken, and indeed there were many such unsourced comments on both sides. We should all work more carefully in the future, and build the article in a more thoughtful and incremental manner.

My objection is to the notion that Islamism-as-epithet should be the overall thrust of the article; hence I do not feel that nigger is an appropriate template in this regard, but would suggest rather liberalism, secularism or Communism, among many others.Timothy Usher 22:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

To start off, the article should define what Islamism is. It is a term that labels certain people as Islamist and it is a term that those who are given that label do not give themselves. That stuff can be sourced easily and you can find a dozen published sources for that info. And the article shold give an in depth history on were the word came from and how it involved into its current use. It should also indentify the groups who use the term. The term is used by Non Muslims and Non Traditional Muslims.

"Questions: 1) do you agree that there it can be useful to broadly distinguish between those who advocate Islam as the supreme organizing principle of government (for example the restoration of the Caliphate or rule of the judiciary) from those, Muslims or otherwise, who advocate relatively secular forms of government, 2) and if so, what terminology do you consider should be used the former case?"

To answer your above question; this is my opinion I am about to give so it can not be included in the article unless it is cited from a published source. So just think of the following as a side note. Those Muslims who term other Muslims as Islamists are Muslims who have given up practicing Islam or have introduced a completely new version of Islam. They do not follow real Islam so in my opinion they either do not count as real Muslims or can be labeled as Progressive Muslims or modern Muslims. It is sort of like this. For example, say you grew up in New York City. Then you move out of New York City to a land far away like Ohio or something. Even though you no longer live in NYC, you label yourself as a new yorker. Then you in turn label those who still live in NYC as extreme New Yorkers. But let me just get something straight, Islam forbids Muslims from attacking innocent people, women, and children. So those who atacked the WTC would not count as Muslims nor extreme Muslims, since they violated sacred laws. Islam only gives permission too Muslims too attack those who attack them and are planning too attack them. If somebody is making a plan to attack a Muslim town, Muslims can attack them first, but there are major conditions. No matter what happens, Muslims still can not attack women, children or innocent people. They can only attack their pure enemies (those who plan to hurt them). I hope that clears up some things. My point is that those Muslims who hurt innocent people can also be excluded from the definition of Islam and thus should also not be included in the definition of extreme Muslims as well since they have violated Islamic laws. MuslimsofUmreka 23:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Putting aside the issue of whether Islam mandates what is called Islamism - and I would personally agree that a strong case can be made that it does - would you agree that my description of the way Islamism is used, as referring the belief that one or another interpretation of Islam should be the surpreme organizing principle of government, is accurate?Timothy Usher 00:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

My take on the issue is fully outlined below MuslimsofUmreka 01:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This is farcical. You're asserting that Islamist groups should not be labeled as such, then you're saying that Muslims who use the term "Islamist" are not real Muslims? Come on. It's the height of conceit for you to assert that this article is POV and then throw around statements like that. Graft 03:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

My take on the concept of Islamism by MuslimsofUmreka 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

The term is very broad and can be very misleading. Islam covers a broad area and people who are termed as being Islamist also cover a wide area. First, I would like to start with what Islam allows and what it does not allow. Then I will explain the term Islamism and what it implies. In the conclusion I will explain what I believe this article should focus on.

Islam, what it says

Islam encourages Muslims to set up an Islamic government. Muslims are told that in their lands they should run the government as it is described in the Quran and Sunnah. Islam does not however say to take over other foreign governments and establish Islam. Islam teaches that dawah should be given to non Muslims. If for whatever reason non Muslims make plans to attack Muslim lands or Muslims, then Muslims should fight those who want to attack Muslims. This does not mean starting up conflicts, but if somebody declares or is being quiet hostile towrds Muslims and it can be seen that they plan to attack Muslims, then Muslims are allowed to go attack those people. Muslims are told to go to foreign lands to give dawah and to deliver the message of Islam in a peaceful manner. Muslims are supposed to spread the religion of Islam. But the jihad stuff is only to be used when others start hostilities with Muslims.

Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, even in the times of war. Muslims are told not to begin hostilities as it can be seen the following vese of the Quran, "002.190 YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits." posted from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.190

The term Islamism and what it implies

The term Islamism implies that anybody who follows the religion of Islam appriopriately is a bad person. The term also indentifies those Muslims who trangress the limits as being extreme Muslims. But if they transgress the limits indentified in the Quran, they can not possibly be following Islam to the extreme. The concept of the terms Islamism and Islamist imply those people who no longer wish to practice Islam as it should be practiced (those people who are part of liberal movements), as being real Muslims and correct Muslims. The term implies that people who follow Islam correctly are all bad peole and should be wiped out.

The political incorrectness of the term

The term Islamism and Islamist is politically in correct. Communists call themselves communists and they themselves say that they follow communism. Muslims do not say that they follow islamism, they say they follow islam. Muslims do not call themselves Islamists, they call themselves Muslims. Do you see the diference? People call hip hop culture black culture but the correct term would be hip hop culture or urban culture.

Conclusion: What this article should focus on

This article should focus on the term Islamism itself. It should give a history of where the term came from and how it is used today and why it is used like that.

The end MuslimsofUmreka 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this - merging this article with the article on Islamist Fundamentalism is not only confusing but misleading. I think there is a lot to say here about the history, evolution and usage of the term without getting into one specific aspect of its usage. Discussion of Islamic Fundamentalism should be relegated to only one aspect of this article and be added as a 'see also' link at the end.

Why I think your's is a totally crap attempt at a rewrite

Since Islamism isn't a terminology rooted in Islamic theology itself, but a terminology of third-party origins ascribed to movements to assert Islamic government in Muslim and nonmuslim countries, what the Quran or Hadiths say are irrelevant. Islamic theology is itself irrelevant unless you propose to prove that Islamism is a terminology rooted in the religion of Islam. It isn't.

Any rewrite must include the usage of the term, definitions offered by various sources, etc. It should go into identifying what forces have and are considered 'islamist'.

And stop using the opening phrase "Islam says". Islam isn't a person and there isn't a text that is called "Islam". There's the Quran, but the Quran is open to interpretation, and any quote originating from it regarding Shariah is contested by scholars. You could include information based on quotes of scholars who are addressing the topic of Islamism with the use of Qur'an, that's fair game..But you cannot use scripture itself to formulate your arguement. That's original research. Most Muslims in the world do not take the verses regarding living under Muslim rule as being literal in the sense that Islamic law must be implemented. Considering most Muslims don't even read Hadiths, it's inappropriate to speak of Hadiths in this article as if they define Muslim opinion on Islamic law.

The term Islamist is NOT used to as a synonym for "Muslim". I know of no credible journalist or leader who used the term "Islamist" when the term "Muslim" was appropriate. You've obviously fallen short in your research of this terminology and its usage. It is not a derogetory term.

The article CANNOT contain your personal judgements. To claim "Islamism" as a term invented to demean Muslims is ridiculous. Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term, as does Al Jazeera. There is a legitimate context where the use of the term "Islamist" and "Islamism" is appropriate. The article needs to investigate that context. All statements must be factual and sourced. Amibidhrohi 02:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Amibidhrohi.

Realize that from MOU's perspective, as per his New Yorker analogy, all true Muslims are Islamists, so to him it is synonymous.Timothy Usher 04:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you please provide proof of this claim: Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term, as does Al Jazeera. Secondly, Islam is very relavent when you consider the concept of "Din." Din dictates political activism and, if you look at the archives, some of the new editors claim that any political active Muslim is an Islamist. This cannot be the case.

Most Muslims in the world do not take the verses regarding living under Muslim rule as being literal in the sense that Islamic law must be implemented. Please provide proof of your claim because it is just an anecdotal claim.

Considering most Muslims don't even read Hadiths, it's inappropriate to speak of Hadiths... Provide evidence of this claim because not only is it irrelavent but it is anecdotal.

The article CANNOT contain your personal judgements. Your argument is based largely on personal judgements without any citations. Dr. Abdulkarim Soroush's discussion in "Islam and the Concept of Secularity" clearly disagrees with almost everything you've written. He is a world famous researcher and you are just another Wiki editor. Please provide citations for all the above claims. Also, please provide evidence that Muslims do not have a concept of "din." 24.7.141.159 06:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The obligation is yours to prove that Muslims are categorically Islamist. Most of the Muslims in the world live in nations that do not suscribe to Islamic systems of government. Indonesia is printing their own domestic version of Playboy Magazines. Bangladesh, for example, fought a war because the Pakistanis sought to implement Islamization of their culture. Look up the Bangladesh War of Independence entry if you think this observation is anecdotal too. There are millions of Muslims in the West, many who drink and engage in all the unislamic activities typical of those born into western culture. I am one of them, as are the members of my family. To claim all Muslims follow 'deen' is ridiculous. As for media usage of 'islamist', go to english.aljazeera.com and search "islamist", see how many articles you find using that terminology. Do a bit of your own research if you are indeed curious. Because the word "Islamist" is rooted in the West, used as a political term and not a religious ones, Hadith and Quran are irrelevant in this context. Are some Muslims Islamists as well? Of course. Are all of them Islamist in the sense that they want to implement shariah? No way. Please remove the protections to this entry. Amibidhrohi 00:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The first claim at least is trivial to prove. The English version of al-Ahram has 18,900 hits for the word "Islamist". That's a lot. Considering most of the writers there are Muslims I'd say this is a pretty good proof. [6] The other claims I'm not so certain of. Graft 06:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you'll agree with me that Google simply turning up results alone is not validation for the definition of a term. Another user also has discussed this point in Archives/Deletion above. There are extremely anti-secular papers that have been published in South Asia that are critical of the concept of Islamism. It would be prudent to explore the context in which the word is used. I'd also like to remind you that Al-Ahram is controled by the Egyptian Ministry of Information [7] and a poll has shown that Egypt is near the bottom in terms of freedom of press [8]. Using Al-Ahram alone cannot be the standard. 24.7.141.159 07:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

"...a poll has shown that Egypt is near the bottom in terms of freedom of press."

Question: Do you hold that the government or its policies have altered the result which Graft has referenced, such that there are more mentions of Islamism then there otherwise would be? If so, how?

Also, you write, "There are extremely anti-secular papers that have been published in South Asia that are critical of the concept of Islamism." Some editors have gotten pretty hard-core about sourcing lately, so to keep them happy, I ask which papers you are talking about and why you think they refute Graft's points.Timothy Usher 09:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

You said: Do you hold that the government or its policies have altered the result which Graft has referenced, such that there are more mentions of Islamism then there otherwise would be?

It very much changes the position. According to Wikipedia's article of the Freedom of the Press, a discussion is provided that describes the poll I mentioned as a way to quantify direct attacks on journalists and the media as well as other indirect sources of pressure against the free press. Under a repressive government where attacks on journalists are expected, the concept of impartiality comes into question. (1) Unfortunately, this has no bearing on my point above that clearly stated using Al-Ahram alone cannot be the standard. Using a single source of information is hardly congruent with responsible discourse in academia. Are you suggesting we change our academic traditions to pander to your position? See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources.

You said: editors have gotten pretty hard-core about sourcing lately

I'm glad that we're finally starting to drop the anecdotal non-sense here and looking for facts in recognized sources. Do you applaud this development as much as I do?

You said: I ask which papers you are talking about

These are papers published by Universities from North Africa to India. Unfortunately most are not available online nor are they in English. Listing names at this point is rather futile.

why you think they refute Graft's points.

See my discussion in the original post that you replied to regarding using nothing more than a search as evidence without examining the actual source and the context of the term. Furthermore, see my discussion in this response regarding Freedom of Press and, again, why sourcing for one particular place is hardly the level of quality to be expected in an encyclopedia. If you have any more questions about citations then please read this: Wikipedia:Cite_sources and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources and Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words. 24.7.141.159 15:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's clear just by reading any of the articles that the usage on al-Ahram is the same as what we're discussing. Plus this is not a google search - it's a search of a specific publication. 18,900 hits in one publication is a ridiculously large number. But since you seem to think al-Ahram's direction disqualifies it from the statement "Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term", what would you suggest is an appropriate one to check? Unfortunately al-Jazeera doesn't have good archiving, web search, or transcripts, so validating there is difficult. Graft 16:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your first statement. However, a single source cannot be enough of a reason to qualify this usage of the term. Do you agree with me on this point? User:Amibidhrohi clearly stated that this term is in general usage at many Muslim publications but both of us are having problems finding any evidence to substantiate this claim beyond Al-Ahram. Al-Ahram, even if it could be considered a reliable source, is only one example. Furthermore, the first 50 results on Google are composed by a large majority of people that could easily fall under the distinction of Islamophobes. That point can be coupled with phenomenon such as "Miserable failure" to see why we'd have Google loading up on the negative usage of the term. I'm opting to wait it out until the original claims are substantiated by the original poster. 24.7.141.159 18:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

"According to Aljazeera's correspondent, members of at least six Islamist groups walked out of the joint session of parliament shortly after the president began speaking." English Al Jazeera website.

"Twenty-two journalists -- 16 based in Sylhet, five in Barguna and one in Dhaka --received death threats apparently from Islamist militants yesterday." - The Daily Star (Bangladesh)

"In the hands of undesirable elements, like the Islamists who won the Algerian elections and had to be thwarted or the Muslim Brotherhood that is knocking at the doors of President Hosni Mobarak in Egypt, it threatens to undo the democratic peace theory and is not desirable." Daily Times of Pakistan

"Recently re-emerging Islamist movements promoting the formal use of Islamic law by the state are finding that they now face opposition both from the government and from various civil society sources." InsideIndonesia.org Amibidhrohi 01:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Please provide direct links to the articles. Furthermore, do three articles out of a population encompassing 1 billion people of a religion that has existed for 1,400 years constitute a validation of your argument? I don't think so. 24.7.141.159 09:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Demonstrate that you're genuinely interested in this issue by doing your own research. The names of the publications can be entered into google; once you're on the home pages, search 'islamist'. You are not mentally disabled, figure it out. At least demonstrate your seriousness by counting correctly: that's four sources. Typically more than 4 sources aren't required of a single statement, but if you do your research you'll find more. I merely picked the major english dailies of 3 countries, 15 mintues of work at most, in addition to the english website of Al Jazeera. Every website for a major publication in every Muslim-majority country I've looked at used the word "Islamist" in their articles. The point was that even amongst Muslims, the term "Islamist" is recognized as having a legitimate meaning and context. That point is proven. Amibidhrohi 14:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The term merely existing on a Muslim website is not enough for this definition as you state. Muslim publications do not generally dive into censoring contributors and guest interviews of certain words. It is prudent to know who used the word and where they are from. The examples given below are demonstrative of this line of reasoning. Again, please provided specific links to these articles. I have sent Tahir Mirza, editor of [[9]], an email regarding his publications usage of the term. Lastly, we need to know how the term is being used on those pages. Is Islam-ist being used in the classic sense where the suffix -ist denotes a person prescribing to the principle of Islam? Or is it being used to define anti-Western elements amongst Muslims? The most interesting aspect of this entire debate is the use of the term Islamist in the Muslim LGBT community. According to fundamental readings of the three Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Judaism, Christianity), lesbians, gays, bi, and trans ideologies are condemned. The most surprising aspect is Al-Fatiha, a Muslim LGBT organization, being self-described Islamists. So the question remains, if you are so hell bent on finding the Muslim usage of the term, then are you going to write off any usage not congruent to your end goals? 24.7.141.159 18:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

From Al-Jazeera transcripts, via Nexis:

Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera

May 24, 2002 Friday

EMEDIA-ACC-NO:.320

LENGTH: 512 words

HEADLINE: Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, Founder of Hamas (05/24/02 22:10 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA

ANCHOR: You were accused by some corners in the Palestinian Authority of having links with foreign parties, and that you constantly worked to undermine and destroy the Palestinian Authority.

YASSIN: First of all, it's sad to enter into these diatribes. We're not ready for that. Second, we know ourselves well. We're an Islamist movement defending an Islamic homeland, and anyone who wants to call us otherwise -- everyone praises (ph) which he doesn't have.

Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera

May 13, 2003 Tuesday

EMEDIA-ACC-NO:.320

LENGTH: 694 words

HEADLINE: Interview with Hani Al-Naqshabandi (05/13/03 00:08 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA

BODY: ANCHOR: Joining us from London, Hani Al-Naqshabandi, editor-in-chief of "Al-Majalla" newspaper. How do you see the -- what's your take on the explosions?

NAQSHABANDI: In my opinion -- in my own personal estimate, unfortunately, we look at the issue from a wrong perspective. Dealing with the problems of Islamist radicalism is not to oppress it with force but to deal with its root causes. There is more than one reason, and we need to -- and these causes need to be dealt with. One of the main causes is the American injustice in dealing with the Arab issues. Another one is the absence of the political, social and economic justice in Saudi Arabia. There are several issues that need to be addressed, and there are several lessons that need to be learned. In my estimate, fighting terrorism cannot be achieved without the use of -- with the use of force alone. Force is important, but not the only weapon.

There are a few other instances of the word "islamist" in Jazeera's transcripts. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 17:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting to say the least. However, I'm surprised there aren't more examples of this and, judging by the dates, there has been ample time for the term to permiate. Furthermore, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin's use of the word is not in the sense as defined on these pages. Rather, he is using Islamist in the classic English usage of adding the suffic -ist "[10]." This can be backed up from his various speeches in Arabic. On the second example, Al-Majalla is a London-based Arabic newspaper for which Hani Al-Naqshabandi is an editor-in-chief. For him to use the term Islamist isn't surprising. I would be more convinced if Al-Jazeera anchors used the term Islamist regularly but that is not the case. 24.7.141.159 18:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

My apologies but if anyone can read Arabic or can search a transliteration, the word you need to searching for is Islamiyya (اسلامي). It literally means "Islamic." Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and other commentators in the Arab world generally use older English conventions where adding the suffix -ist denotes that he is a believer in Islam, hence an Islam-ist. Therefore, Islamic can be replaced by Islamist depending on the usage in Arabic. As I have said before, it is almost impossible to find wide usage of the term Islamist in the Muslim world. The only time it is used is to debunk the implied negative meaning described on these pages. 24.7.141.159 20:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that, first of all, it is pronounced "Islaamee" or "Islamiyy" not islamiyya. - Bassemkhalifa 12:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is interesting enough, but it's an analysis and therefore original research. These sources suffice for Wikipedia's purposes, and we as editors have no business making value judgments about them. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 04:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Being able to read another language is not, in and of itself, original research. All I did was read Sheikh Yassin's Arabic and English texts translated by US Government translators and nearly verbatim (short of plagerism) conveyed the idea. Furthermore, Islamiyya has existed as a word for 1,400 years and its translation has existed since the first time Europeans traded with Arabs post-Islam being founded in the 7th century. Merely restating this fact hardly qualifies as WP:OR but ignoring it gives validity to questioning the factual accuracy of this article.

I must disagree on your last point. It is quite obvious that none of the other editors have come forward with being multilingual or having any skill in reading Arabic. This in and of itself puts your POV out of the sphere of NPOV because you are commenting on a non-Western topic without acknowledging non-Western sources due to language handicaps. So far, in this thread, we have learned that in the past 1,400 years Islam has existed, over 1 billion people encompassing a fifth of the world's population do not use the term Islamism. It might be almost non-trivial to do a satistical analysis of how 5 listed sources qualify as an anomoly. Two of the sources are questionable at best and meaningless at worst. Sheikh Yassin's use of the word is intentionally being used by editors here to qualify the definition of this word. Has anyone considered correlation (of a terrorist group using the term Islamism) does not imply the converse is true (Islamism encompasses terrorist ideology)? Ignoring Islamiyya's established definition of Islamic/Islamism is, as I have said before, introducing a factual inaccuracy and ignoring basic English rules. This is the English wikipedia after all, isn't it? I welcome your input and think it is wonderful but in this situation the point must be conceded.

Lastly, we as Wiki editors have an responsibility to evaluate sources. Would we use KKK material to provide a history of non-White races? No and the reasons are obvious. For the sake of disproving Godwin's Law, would we use Nazi material to describe the Jews? No. Although these are tongue-in-cheek examples, they illustrate the judgement calls that are made on a daily basis to provide NPOV material from reliable sources. In other words, we set out to find widespread usage of the term Islamism in the Muslim world as another user claimed. After a full day of searching, we are still waiting for a flood of usage that doesn't exist. Furthermore, Al-Majalla was touted as a Muslim publication in a Muslim country using the term. However, that example failed our basic requirement when I exposed it as being a London-based Arabic newspaper for which Hani Al-Naqshabandi as a former editor-in-chief. As it stands, we must give up this attempt. All is not lost though, mentioning the fact that the term is practically non-existant in Muslim publications from Muslim nations further strengthens the argument of Islamism being a western distinction. Regardless, this article itself qualifies as original research because Wikipedia's definition is being used as the definitive version (i.e. it is the first link on Google searches for "islamism"). Another troubling fact is the Muslim perspective from internal Muslim sources is practically ignored and almost glossed over. This line of reasoning and validation for the term has failed. I suggest moving to another avenue or giving up and agreeing that Islamism, as defined in the contested article, is a Western distinction that Muslims have no established concept of in 1,400 of published material. 24.7.141.159 09:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it's ignorance that has you taking this line of reasoning or some agenda directed at making the public oblivious to the meaning of Islamism. Since here in Wikipedia one is obliged to assume good faith, I'll assume it's the former. Above I have posted 4 uses of the word "Islamism", one from Al Jazeera and three from the websites of major daily newspapers in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia. The only times I did not find the usage of "Islamist" in a website from a publication in a Muslim country was when the website didn't offer a search function. 4 examples of evidence that Muslims acknowlege the terminology, and use it when describing a particular group or individual. And those 4 are merely out of the 4 websites I checked, you can search for more and you will find more, IF you're sincerely intending to participate here honestly and in an unbiased fashion. I don't have the text yet, but I know for a fact that Parves Musharraf has referred to Islamists in his speeches too. When I have that I'll produce that as well. Amibidhrohi 14:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ill try to be more to the point this time.The reason we should know what major muslim world languages 24.7.141.159 speaks natively as he said is because he is saying "It is quite obvious that none of the other editors have come forward with being multilingual or having any skill in reading Arabic. This in and of itself puts your POV out of the sphere of NPOV because you are commenting on a non-Western topic without acknowledging non-Western sources due to language handicaps." he keeps saying things like this and that other peoples sources dont really count because they dont have the expertise he does in speaking all these languages, he is only saying trust me they dont have this concept in muslim languages. I think thats called "appeal to an authority" which in this case is himself which is fine but we should know for sure because otherwise someone might think maybe he is just making all this up or something.67.188.110.197

I agree. Anyone else who speaks other languages should go out and verify my claims. Until that happens, I'm the best alternative you've got. 24.7.141.159 03:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

For my own part, I am not interested in challenging your claim, but just in knowing what it is. You’d said earlier that you are a native speaker of most major languages of the Muslim world. That is quite a few languages to know with any degree of fluency, and as 67.188.110.197 mentioned in a roundabout way, very noteworthy. I’m not sure I would agree that Pashto or Kurdish is a major language from the perspective of printed sources (let alone any Berber tongue), but (Anatolian) Turkish, Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Malay, at least, qualify as major languages of the Muslim world by any definition and I, too, am curious as to which of these you are fluent, for the purposes of this discussion.Timothy Usher 05:21, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

As a native Arabic speaker, i can, as above, put in my comments on the language.

I would just like to point some things out, that i think may not have been properly addressed. First, Islamism as it used today, is a term that has evolved but most prominently in modern history as a reaction to trends in though that have only really began to emerge in the late 19th century. This Islamic thought can be said to have been brought to the Arab World with Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, who was born in Iran, travelled, most significantly, through India and then arrived in Egypt. His thought had two main branches. The public branch was a very pan-Islamic anti-collonial nationalism that was based on his perception that nationalism played a very large role on the rise of the European powers. Although he wasnt the first, he was the most prominent.

His private branch of thought, reserved for his acquaintances and other ‘ulemmaa (scholars), he expressed his opinion on the need to reform Islamic theology and culture. He thought that the centuries of the door for ijtihad (lit. effort or interpretation, as in scholarly interpretation of the Islamic law) being closed had led to a hostility to reason developing and thus an inability to cope with modern technology and science. The idea was that this was not a fault in Islam itself, which was infinite and therefore could be interpreted to encompass all worldy advances, but rather in the state of the Muslim world at the time. He envisioned a group of scholarly and political elite, undertaking to and leading reform in the Islamic world.

Even, at this point, it can be labeled Islamism or Islamic Fundamentalism, in the sense that he advocated a return to fundamental principles of Islam.

What is most significant for this article, however, may be the split in thought that happened after him. Two of his friends and students in Egypt, Mohamed Abduh and Rashid Reda (Rasheed, Rachid Reda, Reza) took different sides of shit thought. Where Abduh, was a tireless, non-revolutionary rational reason-based reformer, Reda and others became increasingly alarmed at the secularism that was growing in the Arab world, emphasizing Afghani's positions on loyalty to Islam.

Abduh's thought was again split by his pupils. One group took the ideas on the compatibility between reason and revelation to imply increased reliance on reason, equated with Christian Europe. This went the secularization way. As mentioned, Reda increasingly used Afghani's and Abduh's most stringent ideas. Eventually, this evolved into turning to the thought of the strictest Islamic thinkers ushc as Ibn Taymiyya This movement became salafeyya; noun: salafi. There is often confusion surrounding the connection between slafi and wahhabi Islam. This is probably due to their both referencing Ibn Taymiyya and their common tendency towards a very back to the basics, supposedly puritanical interpretation of Islam.

This barely takes us into the first half of the 20th century. Personally, i'm kind of tired of writing at the moment. Names to look out for include: Hassan el Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood. el Hodeiby; Jama`at Islamiyya (Islamic Societies, which were often armed groups); Islamic Jihad.

There are later interactions between Egyptian violent and/or fundamentalist Islamic groups that evolved out of the line mentioned above and wahhabi Islam. This was most notable when the Islamists were shown zero tolerence shortly after the 52 revolution. This culminated in their descimation in the 60s. Many fled to the Gulf where they spread their ideas. (anecdotal: I went to school in Saudi Arabia and had many Egyptian teachers that were formerly Muslim Brotherhood). I would venture that violence was transfered this way to wahhabi Islam and this is the kind of thought that eventually led to the violent mujahideen groups trained and funded by the US in Afghanistan in the late 70s and 80s to counter communist influence. In the 90s, these same people, including Bin Laden, would turn against the United States culminating in 11 September.

I'm sorry about the lack of sources. I initially intended to say only a few lines. I think, however, i have added much food for research, for those that are interested. I'll keep coming back to see how things go. Bassemkhalifa 12:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Deen Sentence

ReWrite Article with sources

Proper Sources and the right way to write this article

Adding sources and citations

User:Timothy Usher is deleting comments off the talk page

Lock Talks for editing

Islamiyya

New article

Introduction

Citations

Post 9/11 Issues

Fighting over Beliefs is WRONG!

Etiquette

This page

Start Fresh

My take on the concept of Islamism by MuslimsofUmreka 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

Islam, what it says

The term Islamism and what it implies

Other major Problems with the term Islamism

The political incorrectness of the term

Conclusion: What this article should focus on

Why I think your's is a totally crap attempt at a rewrite