Talk:Islamism/Archive 8
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Various important statistics and articles
The results from the largest statistical Muslim opinion poll ever made, interviewing 38000 Muslims in 39 different countries. Among other things, 84% of the population of Afghanistan want all "adulterers" to be stoned to death:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
42% of young Muslims in France, and 35% of young Muslims in Britain support suicide bombings:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Further information about the subject. Among other things, 59% of all Palestinians support suicide bombings:
33% of Muslims students in France are sympathetic towards terrorism:
There are 23000 Jihadists in Britain:
Only 34% of British Muslims would contact the police if somebody they knew had been involved with terrorism:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/
17000 French Muslims are known to be potential terrorists:
18884 Belgian Muslims are known to have connections to terrorism:
The Jihadists are winning the propaganda warfare with western countries, which drastically increases radicalisation, and turns it harder to stop:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39448987
The Islamic State has 30000 Internet pages that spread its propaganda:
A study about jihadism and islamic radicalisation in the western countries:
https://icct.nl/publication/fear-thy-neighbor-radicalization-and-jihadist-attacks-in-the-west/
21% of Syrians support ISIS:
https://www.statista.com/chart/4227/support-for-isis-in-muslim-countries/
Europol reports that the Islamic State is radicalising Muslim immigrants into jihadists:
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are directly inciting Islamist extremism in Europe via their thousands of Wahhabist/Salafist mosques:
The Saudi-financed Salafist/Wahhabist mosques in Germany are even too extremist for Syrians:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-mosques-insig-idUSKCN12S0HE
Saudi Arabia and Qatar directly finance and give logistics aid to the Islamic State terrorist organisation:
The Global Gender Gap Report for 2016. The Islamic countries are at the bottom of the list:
http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/rankings/
64% of the men in Egypt admit to having sexually harrassed women:
Saudi Arabia has been elected into the United Nations women's rights council:
https://www.unwatch.org/no-joke-u-n-elects-saudi-arabia-womens-rights-commission/
Over 60% of the populations of Austria, France, and Belgium want a complete stop for Muslim immigration:
https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration#
Several statistics regarding what Europeans think about Islam, terrorism, and national security:
https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/looking-to-germany-to-protect-the-world-order-779939/
How the Islamic State indoctrinates children:
240 textbooks in United Nations sponsored schools in Palestine teach the Muslim children to murder Jews:
Iran with nuclear weapons would be a bigger threat than Syria and North Korea combined:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-is-a-bigger-threat-than-syria-and-north-korea-combined-1492210411
The ongoing genocide on Christians in the Middle-East will likely have exterminated all of them within 10 years:
http://www.acnuk.org/persecuted
13 Islamic countries where atheism is punished by death:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/atheists-death-penalty-_n_4417994.html
10 countries where homosexuality is punished by death:
The Islamic countries where apostasy is punished by death:
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/
Bill Gates says that bioterrorism is one of the greatest existential threats to humanity, alongside nuclear war and global warming:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/18/technology/bill-gates-bio-terrorism/index.html
The Muslim Brotherhood spends a great amount of money on lobbying, to avoid the terrorist designation:
http://mobile.wnd.com/2017/03/muslim-brotherhood-spending-millions-to-fight-terror-designation/
David A (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Do you have an edit to suggest?Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am not good with massive re-editing of articles in a proper academic manner. I am however pretty good at finding important information, and am extremely worried about this issue, so I am hoping that more skilled editors will be able to incorporate some of the information. David A (talk) 16:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- That is why you suggest one edit at a time. Just providing a wall of links is not a good way to go To illustrate, this article is not about Islam, so articles about Islamic countries are irrelevant, what they need to be talking about is Islamism.Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I have found far too much information for that procedure. However, I would appreciate your and other editors' help in sifting through and finding what is useful. David A (talk) 17:45, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Frankly all I have looked at so far looks largely irrelevant, articles about (for example) general terrorism have no usefulness here. This just looks like a rather random list of articles related to terrorism (irrelevant to this article), Islam (irrelevant to this article) or material better placed in articles about specific subjects (like ISIL).Slatersteven (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, I think that these are largely very informative links, with important information. Dismissing all of them wholesale, rather than picking and choosing, seems very unreasonable. David A (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- It is down to you to prove they have useful and informative information, not me. So what does the bill Gates article (for example) have to say about Islamism, why should it be included in the article?Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ideally, Wikipedia editors should be concerned with helping each other to get out the truth about the nature of reality, not to argue against informing the public. The Bill Gates article is just one of many, and should not serve as a convenient distraction from the main issues, but Islamic terrorism is far more prevalent than all other forms, and once it starts to efficiently use bioterrorism weapons, millions will likely die. David A (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- No Wikipedia editors should make suggestions about how to improve an article, not ask others to make them without explaining what they want. As another example of the problem here, the Daily mail (any more) is not RS.Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ideally, Wikipedia editors should be concerned with helping each other to get out the truth about the nature of reality, not to argue against informing the public. The Bill Gates article is just one of many, and should not serve as a convenient distraction from the main issues, but Islamic terrorism is far more prevalent than all other forms, and once it starts to efficiently use bioterrorism weapons, millions will likely die. David A (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- It is down to you to prove they have useful and informative information, not me. So what does the bill Gates article (for example) have to say about Islamism, why should it be included in the article?Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, I think that these are largely very informative links, with important information. Dismissing all of them wholesale, rather than picking and choosing, seems very unreasonable. David A (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Frankly all I have looked at so far looks largely irrelevant, articles about (for example) general terrorism have no usefulness here. This just looks like a rather random list of articles related to terrorism (irrelevant to this article), Islam (irrelevant to this article) or material better placed in articles about specific subjects (like ISIL).Slatersteven (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I have found far too much information for that procedure. However, I would appreciate your and other editors' help in sifting through and finding what is useful. David A (talk) 17:45, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- That is why you suggest one edit at a time. Just providing a wall of links is not a good way to go To illustrate, this article is not about Islam, so articles about Islamic countries are irrelevant, what they need to be talking about is Islamism.Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am not good with massive re-editing of articles in a proper academic manner. I am however pretty good at finding important information, and am extremely worried about this issue, so I am hoping that more skilled editors will be able to incorporate some of the information. David A (talk) 16:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Do not bulk delete content related to AKP/Erdogan promotion of Islamism
I do on a personal level have full empathy for every citizen of Turkey who might feel embarrassed by seeing mentions of AKP/Erdogan promotion of Islamism in this article. However, as the topic has numerous coverage in media for many years, it cannot simply be ignored from an encyclopedic approach to Islamism. You might wish to improve the article by elaboration, but bulk deletion cannot be an option. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- I would like to see a better source for this.Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Currently I plan to take my time somewhen in the rest of the year to further elaborate in Turkey subsections both in the country section and in the international promotion section, and will certainly include many sources. I would appreciate each and every collaboration. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 12:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Put them here, and any suggested text so we can judge it.Slatersteven (talk) 15:30, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Currently I plan to take my time somewhen in the rest of the year to further elaborate in Turkey subsections both in the country section and in the international promotion section, and will certainly include many sources. I would appreciate each and every collaboration. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 12:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- @2A1ZA: firstly, what makes you think that you have the right to do judge that my removal has anything to do with me being a citizen of Turkey (which is not even true) and feeling embarrassed? Such ethnic-based, dismissive and borderline derogatory personal references are completely unacceptable and unwelcome on Wikipedia, see the first two bullet points in WP:NPA. Furthermore, this is not the first time I am exposed to such behaviour from you and unfortunately I feel that I need to call it out explicitly. This forestalls any constructive collaboration and I will not tolerate many more repeated instances.
- Secondly, I am reverting to the stable version before your additions per WP:BRD. As in previous instances, I am open to all proposals to find a middle ground and ensure that the content is acceptable.
- Thirdly, if the topic has received "numerous coverage in media for many years", as you put it, that is of course clearly encyclopedic. But that is not the subject of the current discussion. The current discussion only concerns the remarks made by a single American official in a single press conference, which is what you insist on retaining. This is not a newscast and a single press release is very WP:UNDUE and recentist for such an article. I cannot even begin to imagine reading such a sentence on an article in Islamism in any proper encyclopedia. Turkey being a funder for Islamism is a huge and controversial subject. I trust that you will be able to find some of the long-term media coverage that you have talked about, combine that with some recent academic work and add the relevant encyclopedic content in compliance with our guidelines. That is how an encyclopedia is written, not by quotefarming. This would be more than fully welcome and would get my full support. --GGT (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Another biased article
The article here is written in the same vain as "jihad".
Jihad does not mean war and killing for the sake of Allah, it means the struggle to practice ones faith. Yet the meaning has changed and become very specific. Just because other people are using the word as propaganda (Both ISIL and various newscasters) it doesn't mean you change the original meaning.
In the same vain, a Islamist is synonymous with a Muslim which is synonymous to Islam. A Islamist is someone who follows Islam and a Islamist view would regard the thoughts of the sharia of Allah as stated in the book of the recitation, the Quran.
If you have a lack of understanding of Islam, then the authors of the page should not be writing it, because it's clear they don't understand. Anything that is Islamist is backed up with the Quran and yet the Quran is hardly used as a references for most Islamic articles.
Marcramarcram (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
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What is this matter that atheists are being considered as terrorist?Recently I came to know a spine chilling news that atheists are being considered as terrorists in Arab. Whats the matter? And such a serious matter should be immediately entered in Wikipedia. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html 2405:204:4313:D858:9C42:A500:6274:3CED (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
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Islamism in Europe
I notice the article seems to be lacking information about Islamism in European countries. Given a rise in Islamophobia across the continent, many Muslim-dominant and Muslim-focused parties have emerged. These should be included in the article, painting a picture of how diverse the Islamist movement is and what its priorities, structures, etc. look like based on differing regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noahroos (talk • contribs) 18:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Allah
The most ridiculous thing about the whole moslem thing is that Allah is Jesus and they are just a schismatic sect that has been utterly corrupted by their Sheiks, Imams and clerics. It has always just been a power and money grab that they have tortured the earth with for over 1,300 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.146.83.207 (talk) 15:51, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- No, we believe that Jesus was a prophet, not the son of Allah. Because we don't believe that Allah has any partners in divinity. For futher information, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam 2600:6C4E:1200:1E85:EC4B:413:D10F:95C6 (talk) 01:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
Maududi quote
The quote from Maududi that User:Iskandar323 deleted is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://zulkiflihasan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/towardsunderstanding.pdf It is from a blog of a DR. ZULKIFLI HASAN, but looking at the posting (of an e-book published by UKIM Dawah Centre) there certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Discussion from Iskandar323 talk page
The quote from Maududi you keep deleting is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism&diff=next&oldid=1134872162 There certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The quote from Maududi you keep deleting is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://zulkiflihasan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/towardsunderstanding.pdf It is from a blog of a DR. ZULKIFLI HASAN, but the looking at the posting (of an e-book published by UKIM Dawah Centre) there certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Louis P. Boog: geocities.com was the problem with that source - it is, as far as I am aware, a self-published domain, and the exact provenance and integrity of any of material available on such a domain is fundamentally unverifiable. If you wish to reinclude that quote, why not simply quote the source directly? [1] But even so, isn't this a primary source for Maududi's thoughts? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand. How can the published work of an author not be considered a sources for his thoughts? Especially for a person most famous for his published work?? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:57, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Louis P. Boog: To be clear, I have little interest and/or skin in the inclusion of the quote one way or another. I was merely working to clean up what is an incredibly bloated page, and sources hosted at patently unreliable domains are typically a pretty reasonable place to start. geocities.com is additionally a domain that is flagged by the unreliable.js script. However, to the thrust of your question, I was not familiar with the work and simply saw a blog. Now that I am aware that Towards Understanding Islam is a work of some prominence, even though I can't precisely pinpoint the original publisher, I have no particular objections to it. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Iskandar323: I too have a strong desire to cleaning up the mess that is the Islamism article and hope we will not be working at cross purposes. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Louis P. Boog: If you want the quote to endure, however, I suggest citing it to Google Books - you can always link the book's name on page and then add any potential useful online copies in its external links. Otherwise, I wouldn't rule out another trigger-happy editor like me just coming along, seeing wordpress and having the red mist descend. As it is, even without those issues, your reference is currently afflicted with an error. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Iskandar323 cite added. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Louis P. Boog: If you want the quote to endure, however, I suggest citing it to Google Books - you can always link the book's name on page and then add any potential useful online copies in its external links. Otherwise, I wouldn't rule out another trigger-happy editor like me just coming along, seeing wordpress and having the red mist descend. As it is, even without those issues, your reference is currently afflicted with an error. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Iskandar323: I too have a strong desire to cleaning up the mess that is the Islamism article and hope we will not be working at cross purposes. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Louis P. Boog: To be clear, I have little interest and/or skin in the inclusion of the quote one way or another. I was merely working to clean up what is an incredibly bloated page, and sources hosted at patently unreliable domains are typically a pretty reasonable place to start. geocities.com is additionally a domain that is flagged by the unreliable.js script. However, to the thrust of your question, I was not familiar with the work and simply saw a blog. Now that I am aware that Towards Understanding Islam is a work of some prominence, even though I can't precisely pinpoint the original publisher, I have no particular objections to it. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand. How can the published work of an author not be considered a sources for his thoughts? Especially for a person most famous for his published work?? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:57, 23 January 2023 (UTC)