Talk:Grand Rapids Christian Schools

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This page was proposed for deletion by John from Idegon (talk · contribs) on 24 November 2019 with the comment:
Private school districts do not get an automatic pass on notability. They have no set boundries, meaning it fails GEOLAND, it lacks the taxing powers (and the interest that goes along with that) and has no legal powers beyond what any other private company would have. Oh, and it fails GNG, and NORG.
It was contested by WhisperToMe (talk · contribs) on 2019-11-24 with the comment:
PROD has been addressed by New York Times article "To Understand Betsy DeVos’s Educational Views, View Her Education" by Erica Green as well as by an additional MLive article discussing the DeVos financial relations (in fact many, many, many institutions in Grand Rapids are named after and/or funded by the DeVoses) - I did not have an intention of saying it was notable based on geography, as of course it's not a public school district

Coverage from MLive is the reason for notability

@John from Idegon:

Hi! The reason I started this article was the coverage from MLive over the sale of a building to the school system. I feel on Wikipedia:GNG grounds this should be kept (MLive is part of the Booth Newspapers Group, and newspapers are crucial sources for school articles). However I notice Grand Rapids Christian High School already has a separate article. What do you think about merging them? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also found "An Exploratory Study of the Expressed Attitudes of the Grand Rapids Public School Teachers and the Grand Rapids Christian School Teachers in Six Areas of Professional Human Relations" which, on page 60 and 100 (as well as another page) mentions Grand Rapids Christian Schools. Seems to be a thesis of some kind... WhisperToMe (talk) 05:18, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This transactional stuff is WP:NOTNEWS and doesn't speak to notability at all. A thesis isn't a reliable source and even if it were, a single study of a single labor issue is not a discussion of the district in detail. Public school districts have articles because they are geographic features. Private school districts are not. For 99% of all school districts, there is no hope of finding enough secondary sources to write anything even vaguely like a whole article. So we are stuck with thousands of articles on what is fundamentally a dull subject that are no better than directory listings more or less copied from the district website. We do not need more. A public school system selling buildings to private schools is not new, distinguishing or controversial. It happens all the time. Not a lot of easy conversions for old schools, so best use of surplus schools is...a school. I also do not see any reason to cover anything other than the high school in the high school article. John from Idegon (talk) 05:42, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lived most of my life in West Michigan and actually used to contract to the Kalamazoo Gazette as a photographer. Very familiar with Mlive, and Booth. Got my issues with them over their murder of the Gazette, but their journalism is sound. Just not the kind of source needed. We have government sources that can provide data for public school districts but that info doesn't exist for a private district. Short of someone writing an independent book or someone writing a detailed newspaper feature or magazine article, i can't see it. It's just not significant outside the localized community of Grand Rapids area citizens interested in religious education. Don't think me biased against that, my kiddo attends a private Christian school. John from Idegon (talk) 05:50, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@John from Idegon:

1. Thanks for the explanation! In regards to detailed newspaper articles, I found this: Green, Erica L. (2017-06-10). "To Understand Betsy DeVos's Educational Views, View Her Education". The New York Times. Retrieved 2019-11-24. The first half talks about Holland Christian School, where DeVos attended, and the discussion on Grand Rapids Christian, where DeVos sent her children, begins in the second half. I'm hoping this will help resolve some issues.
2. Theses can be reliable sources depending on the subject. This is addressed in the guidelines here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Scholarship and there is a discussion at: Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources#Master's_theses_should_also_be_ruled_"reliable"_if_they_are_the_only_form_of_academic_scholarship_talking_about_a_subject. However I do not know what level of thesis this document is.
3. Also in theory many, if not most, school districts can have their articles developed using secondary sources as the local newspapers cover them and their operations in detail: I use such articles when writing about school district consolidations in various states, and in regards to especially schools in urban school districts, the newspapers are very, very valuable. The problem is access as many of the articles are behind paywalls or are not even digitized, and many Wikipedia readers and users aren't motivated enough to get access. Thankfully Wikipedia:RX exists and can be used to get this material though it's not bulletproof.

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:57, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that is that most of the local coverage is routine. What isn't routine is by definition a local issue (only local coverage = only local issue). This isn't now, nor will it likely ever be, a place to add every tidbit out there. What may be a big local issue will, again by definition, be controversial. That leads to BLP issues. The importance of the information on our global scale would almost have to have widespread coverage to justify the undue weight being in Wikipedia gives it. John from Idegon (talk) 06:51, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What I consider non routine includes:

Any merging or changing in status of the school district territory, so any mergings/closures. In Iowa this also includes any "grade sharing" arrangements (in which school districts send several grade evels to other districts), and I think some Illinois districts do stuff like this too.
Any construction of schools, additions, and renovations.
Any destruction of school facilities due to natural disasters or deliberate human behavior (bog-standard "school closed during hurricane/tornado" are of course routine)
Changes in superintendents.
Changes in principals for individual schools which bring controversy (for specifically notable schools, any change in principals).

These are the bases of what I add to U.S. K-12 school district articles.

As for private school systems, one issue is that there's a fine line between a "high school campus" and a "private high school in a system", and sometimes campuses are merged/consolidated into one. A private school with three campuses can merge them into one later. Personally I think if the "private high school" is notable, the elementary and middle school cponents also are if they are a part of the same school institution. However if they are institutionally separate, there is no notability conferred to elementary-middle schools.

In the case of this article, the demographics reported in the NYT are for the school system as a whole, and the DeVos family made their donations to the school system in particular.

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "importance of the information on our global scale" I feel it is necessary for Wikipedia to address and accept a local scale, within reason, as many readers don't care for a global scale per se but truly care about what's in their own communities. This is why I work on school district articles: I myself became involved in Wikipedia partially because I could write about my hometown. However I feel this subject indeed has a "global scale" now as Betsy DeVos became education secretary and readers around the world would be interested in her relationships, including with this school. The NYT coverage has also gone beyond the school selling the buildings and has addressed the overall culture and atmosphere, as well as the financial ties with the DeVos family. I think at this point the PROD has been addressed and should be removed. WhisperToMe (talk) 09:48, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]