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Initial text

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This has the potential to be a good article, I believe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Axmann8 (talk • contribs) 01:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Powder Game

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Dan-Ball's powder game is not part of the falling sand project. From my research, there is no falling sand project called "Powder Game." If I am wrong, I'd like there to be an external link in the article, but until then, Powder Game stays off the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Izacque (talk • contribs) 23:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dont see the difference between "List of Games" and "list of Similar Games". Does anyone else think they should be merged? F1racer101 (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about falling sand games, not just Powder Toy.

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Looking through the article, a lot of the information seems to be specific to The Powder Toy, and it also looks like all original research. flarn2006 [u t c] time: 05:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, probably the thumbnail should be of "the sand game". It is the most iconic and recognisable. I wonder about licensing of a screen-grab? Might be difficult. ~ Smellymoo 11:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason for it being based mostly around The Powder Toy is because it is the best example of a Falling Sand game, or at least the most present one. If there are others that will work just as well, use them as well. KydonShadow 16:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that it is "the best example", the most representative example would need to be an actual "falling sand" game, which means something very specific, as in it's not a fluid/gas sim using CFD but a pixel based simulation (either cellular automata or similar). Sand:box is probably the best representative example of a pure "falling sand" game that is current and everyone would recognise as 2% of people on earth have played it (but due to COI I can't add it). ~ Smellymoo 06:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Major changes

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I took the effort of simplifying much of the article and removing a paragraph that was biased towards The Powder Toy. However, I'm incredibly lazy and probably won't finish citing everything and making links until later(or never).

--207.179.240.230 (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Get this back up!

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This was once a mighty article, but is has now been reduced to a measly "Stub." Please, is there some way to get it back? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.29.165 (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply] 

I will re-add the information that was there before. Bud Charles (talk) 09:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

waited for months, and no one did it, so I did it myself, also warned the user that did it ~ Smellymoo 14:07, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

reverted

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This, until some years ago was a huge article. It was deleted by someone. --<The Integer Conundrum> (talk) 09:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A contributor account removed much of the information here, along with other people. I do believe that that was not the right thing to do, as it cut out much of the information that was here. I believe I have, however, gotten it back to at least a start class article, instead of a stub.KydonShadow 19:29, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Does wikipedia not contain archives of this stuff? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolven1 (talk • contribs) 19:45, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well as it turns out, in 2006 Wikipedia did contain an article about this subject under the title Falling Sand Game, but it was deleted at the end of that year; here's the last version of the page before the closure of the deletion discussion. I have restored its history as a history-only undeletion along with its old talk page. Graham87 (talk) 08:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Examples to add

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add any suggestions for missing games here.

PowderGdi

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Is it a falling-sand game?

http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3662 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.14.132.59 (talk) 05:49, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Noita (video game)

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A newly released indie roguelike/"rogue lite" game has come out called Noita, it seems to be heavily based on the physics of the falling sand game.

It probably deserves a mention here somewhere, as well as it's own article.

You basically play a wizard and use a wand to descend deeper into a dungeon killing enemies with wands and spells you pick up, every particle is simulated in a similar fashion to the falling sand game, with fire, oil, water, gas etc, it combines elements such as water putting out fire, conducting electricity, turning to steam. Oil being flammable, poisons vaporising in heat and filling chambers with gas etc..

I don't know how to fit it in here without it seeming like a biased promotion for the game (for the record I don't have any affiliation to the devs nor have I even purchased or played the game personally, just watched it being played by my housemate and on twitch).

219.90.192.25 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:29, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Notia is a good example of a falling-sand physics engine, but it also has extra elements making it a hybrid. I think it should be included. ~ Smellymoo 14:07, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

burning sands 1 & 2

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http://siebn.de/games/bs

sand:box

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if powder toy is included (mainly because it has secondary citations proving it's notoriety) but only has 1 million installs, then sandbox should be included as it has 40 million installs ~ Smellymoo 16:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed on my talk, you have a WP:COI, and 40 million downloads counts nil toward notability. Alongside that, you're only looking at TPT's android download count, and the actual total is simply unknown. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 19:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree moonythedwarf. You are right. Been looking for evidence of notability, this is what I have:
  1. https://elpais.com/tecnologia/2018/01/18/actualidad/1516291342_183045.html - El País The best-selling National newspaper in Spain. That has to count.
  2. https://techigem.com/free-apps-without-ads/ - "10 Best Free Apps Without Ads 2021".
~ Smellymoo 22:04, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Add sand:box sand:box on Steam to the history table (details: first released = 2015, platform = android, ios, Linux, Windows).

It has sufficient notoriety:

  1. mentioned in El País The best-selling National newspaper of Spain. mentioned as "caja:arena" [1].
  2. "10 Best Free Apps Without Ads 2021" [2].
  3. there is no better proof of notoriety than plagiarism: there are 4+ apps copying it, for example: [3] or [4].
  4. stopped counting after 50 videos highlighting it on Youtube.
  5. Top result on Google play for "falling sand game" or "sandbox".
  6. in the top 5 results for "particle sandbox game" on Google, which are all the ones in the table.
  7. has ~50 Million downloads.
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  (Nothing here except El Pais counts as RS, and it doesn't say that it's a Falling Sand game, only that you can make things explode in it.) casualdejekyll 14:22, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Casualdejekyll: So I have Notoriety from a RS well and truly covered. I just need somewhere saying it's a falling sand game...
So here are some places saying it's a [falling] sand game (aka powder game):
  1. listed as a game like powder-game, says "Sand Simulation" and "..Identical to other sand games" [5]
  2. "..using an unlimited number of multi-colored sand.." [6]
  3. a pretty comprehensive list of "powder games ... aka falling sand" [7]
  4. listed as an alternative to powder-toy [8]
  5. featured games on republic of gamers [9]
  6. "top 10 best sandbox games" [10]
  7. falling-sand [11] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smellymoo (talk • contribs) 04:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I find this altogether odd, as a duck is clearly a duck, you can see just by looking at it. Nearly 2% of people on earth have played sand:box, it is the archetypal "falling sand" game. ~ Smellymoo 10:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please add sand:box to the history table: first released = 2015, platform = android[12], ios, Linux, Windows[13], description: falling sand game with advanced digital circuit simulation.

Hello again, I submitted a edit request on this talk page due to a COI on my part. I've provided several sources that establish notability, which has been confirmed, what was lacking was explicitly categorize sand:box as a "falling sand" game. Given sand:box's notable mention in El País (Spain's 2nd largest newspaper) and its significant presence within the "falling sand game" genre, as supported by multiple reliable sources, I believe this addition would enrich the article by giving more comprehensive examples for readers. I understand everyone here is a volunteer, and your time is incredibly valuable. If there's any further information or clarification needed on my end to facilitate this process, please let me know.

~ Smellymoo

 Not done: The changes are not supported by neutral, independent, reliable sources. Please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Encoded  Talk 💬 22:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so top national newspapers aren't "neutral, independent, reliable sources" enough!? This is bull****.
The last addition was sandboxels, the only citation for it is a website that you could just apply to get listed yourself, and it makes no mention of "falling sand". I have proven it is VERY notable, and given 7 citations that are of better or equal value to that. So let me get this right, I am held to an unreachable standard because I do the correct thing and mention my COI, I mean how many games get mentioned in national newspapers exactly! but any anon can come and add stuff of questionable value and it sticks. This is total bull****. I quit as an editor, lost interest in this draconian double standards. Then I'll just do like everyone else and add it without asking, because it deserves to be here above about 7 out of 10 that are listed...
Only real valuable entries here are: Downfall, falling sand game, powder toy, SAND:BOX, sandspiel(maybe) and Noita. ~ Smellymoo 10:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Smellymoo, edit requests are evaluated based on the request itself - not on previous additions.
As for this request - you said it was mentioned in the newspaper but did not provide the source, therefore it was declined for lack of sources. Top newspapers are (typically, with exceptions) reliable, but we need to see the source to determine that.
If you're able to provide a reference for this I'll be happy to reevaluate.
Thanks,
Encoded  Talk 💬 10:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
just read up a short way there are 7+.
The previous edit request agreed I had notability covered by the newspaper citation and quibbled over not having anything that said it was a "falling-sand game" so I provided 7 citations. It is definitely in the top 5 most popular falling-sand games of all time now, so a quick Google is all you need to do.
quick test to see if it should be included:
1) have 1% of the people of earth played it: yes
2) is it a falling sand game: yes
3) has it got wikipedia's obtuse notoriety requirement met: yes
wikipedia really has lost it's way, "arbitrary inclusion" has become the norm. ~ Smellymoo 10:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Smellymoo, I do apologise I've just come back and seen them all.
When I click to review an edit request it just shows me the current request, not the previous one above. I agree with you with regards to notability from these sources and have included the game into the table.
 Done
Many thanks, Encoded  Talk 💬 11:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thank you for being reasonable. Sorry for getting irate, I hope you understand, it's been a long long process. Hooray! ~ Smellymoo 11:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just curious what you think is a valuable falling sand game, clearly all of the listed games match the requirements, but why is sandboxels getting removed? Jayd ruby (talk) 18:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jayd ruby: - Coverage in reliable secondary sources are necessary to show that the game is notable. Waxworker (talk) 23:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

sandboxels

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I love sandboxels, but it's not up to the notoriety standard of wikipedia probably. I noticed at least 3 different wikipedia accounts with only a single edit of trying to add sandboxels to the list of example games isn't the right way to go about things. It just looks like sock-puppets, if you want to add it, do what I did, find noteworthy (by wikipedia's definition) citations, and then make a COI request here for it to be added ~ Smellymoo 14:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

highlighted image

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Consider citing the source of the save shown?

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The save shown here is a save from the Powder Toy's save server. Should the original author of the save be named, or at least cited?

For reference, that is save 2198 by dima-gord, and it is the #1 most upvoted save on The Powder Toy (According to the ranking provided by the saveserver). MoonyTheDwarf (talk) 06:41, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

better representative image

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As this page is for the genre of falling sand games, I suggest we use an image from the orginal falling sand game, which would be more instantly reconisable and sum up the page better, for example the 4 streams of water, oil, sand and salt that is iconic. ~ Smellymoo 14:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History

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which game was first? I can't find any proof that the Japanese game was first, I always thought "falling sand game" was first? 14:07, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

after digging, the Japanese version was first for the web, but as Moonythedwarf pointed out, there are older games, has anyone got any idea which was first? ~ Smellymoo 14:57, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I had a Sony CMD-J7 phone in 2000 which had a falling sand game built in - see the manual here: manualslib.com/manual/773394/Sony-Cmd-J7.html?page=48#manual I'm not 100% sure this 'Sand Art' game counts as a 'Falling-sand game' though, even though it features falling sand, as the sand is just coloured sand and doesn't have any other special properties. camtarn (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

research

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I see no references on the talk page to what I am about to say, so here are my two cents. First of all, all of these "falling-sand" are basically cellular automata. D_of_I, who created world of sand and hell of sand, created many other cellular automata games in the same vein before these, the first of which was 火消し砂. As his blog began getting more overseas traffic he began titling his games in English as well as Japanese, and eventually exclusively English. For example, すなめ世界 is world of sand.
   Now D_of_I was learning processing (at the time stylized as Pro55essing) and was using a alpha version of the program that contained many example programs (this is a later version that contains those programs but will be easier to run with modern java), some of which related to cellular automata. These cellular automata programs were written in 2002 and 2003 by Mike Davis, and are clearly what inspired D_of_I to make his various cellular automatons.
   Moving a few years forward, D_of_I relates how he introduced his friend ha55i to processing. Ha55i would go on to make powder game.
   And moving a few years back, there are many other examples of cellular automata programs in videogames and otherwise prior to the 2000's, here are some examples:

Mick West's Down Fall for the Atari ST Cellsman

interesting! I think downfall should be included in the history list for sure, I'll find better links. ~ Smellymoo 06:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Edit Request

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Requested edits:

MoonyTheDwarf (talk) 06:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

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Red X Declined. Additionally, the proposal to "Add citation of the creator of the image" is not clear what is desired to be done. If you're referring to the image file itself, citations which are used in an article's text are not used with images. Please elaborate and advise. Kindly open a new edit request template when you're ready to proceed. Thank you! Spintendo      09:59, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

remove warnings

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The "primary sources" and "original research" warnings should no longer applicable. As all the citations have been through the blender and the text in history is now generally cited. Can you check MoonyTheDwarf, thanks ~ Smellymoo 22:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC) have removed the warning, as I don't believe it is still applicable. ~ Smellymoo 06:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

let's not remove edits documenting like, the second oldest standalone window game of this genre

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the last revision was removed for being irrelevant

it is absolutely a relevant game in the genre, and entry on that list. it's absolutely made an impact on the genre, it's amongst the oldest games in the genre, coming out only a month after wxSand.

AND THAT BEING SAID, THE CATAGORY IS TITLED "List of falling-sand games" NOT "List of falling-sand games I feel is relevant and matters"

I could've added sandboxels, a game that a developer of the powder toy (lbphacker), a game that IS ON THIS LIST, noted as being relevant and missing.

I could have added literally every single falling sand game I could think of to the list and remained 'on topic' relative to "List of falling-sand games."

why on earth is one of the oldest entries in the genre less relevant to the genre than noita, a game only tangentially related by mechanics to this genre.

please give me a better reason why this should not be an entry on the list. I'm not arbitrarily listing sequels 2 & 3 of burning sand, and I'm not arbitrarily adding powder game versions.

if I do not get an actual reason on why this info is actually irrelevant, I will just undo your work like you undid mine, by adding the info back to the article.

@Waxworker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Falling-sand_game&diff=prev&oldid=1263809357 

136.62.66.240 (talk) 10:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@136.62.66.240: - Reliable secondary sources are necessary to show that the game is notable - if the game is so obscure that it was difficult to find out what year it released, it's probably not notable. The two references cited both appear to just be download links - I was unable to find any reliable coverage in a cursory search both on Google and in a Archive.org text contents search. No gaming magazines appear to have covered it that I could find. Also something went awry with the formatting of your signature - that causes pings to not actually work. Waxworker (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.kreativrauschen.com/blog/2006/03/29/burning-sand-new-version-of-the-falling-sand-game/
this is atleast as good of a source as citation [12] for wxSand.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36732421
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/s/THCjBYCigP
the issues I was having with finding documentation on this subject doesn't have so much to do with how notable it was as much as it had to do with the 2017 drama "Burning Sands."
there have been spinoff games
https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/threads/pocket-burning-sand-open-source.1218/
(credited siebn) 136.62.66.240 (talk) 06:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's worth noting that I had looked this up a few years ago and had less of a problem finding out. 136.62.66.240 (talk) 06:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's also worth pointing out, within that download page used as a primary source, https://burningsand.de/old, there is a link to a forum post (that was active for a while),
http://www.fallingsandgame.com/viewtopic.php?t=2260 (deprecated, archived)
https://web.archive.org/web/20080108112730/http://www.fallingsandgame.com/viewtopic.php?t=2260
for help with the sequel
theres a modding guide written by somebody other than max nagl you can find using the depreciated link to the modding wiki
http://www.fallingsandgame.com/wiki/index.php/BS2_CodingHelp_01
https://web.archive.org/web/20091216210701/http://www.fallingsandgame.com/wiki/index.php/BS2_CodingHelp_01
I think it's notable that the falling sand game genre even had a forum before being deprecated. it's not even mentioned in the article.
and there's so much information lost there.
so I just want to as best as I can,
document, or make it easier to document that sorta information about this game genre I've grown up along side. 136.62.66.240 (talk) 07:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
some articles about games and game genres are just rabbit holes you can get sucked into, and I feel like there is something there for this genre as well, but Indon't know if that 'an be gotten tss by omitting the slightly less well known entries with the excuse that they're not notable.
sandboxels was rejected as an entry a while ago, but like I said, a developer of a game that is on this list, noted it as missing on the list. that may be anecdotal but you can join the official discord server of The Powder toy and find that I am not lying.
Might I suggest a compromise, where there is 2 lists, one for more major entries to the genre, and one for less well known entries? that way, the category title of "List of falling-sand games" can be split to actually encompass a general list of entries into the genre. 136.62.66.240 (talk) 07:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
that's a lot of typos.
"... but I don't know if that can be gotten at..." 136.62.66.240 (talk) 07:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Waxworker did this work? 136.62.66.240 (talk) 21:45, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@136.62.66.240: Yes, the ping worked this time - however I am busy and can't respond properly until tomorrow. Waxworker (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, no problem. figured I'd actually sign in. Catterclysm (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Catterclysm: - Forums and wikis are unreliable WP:USERGENERATED sources and don't indicate notability, as are WP:BLOGS and Reddit per WP:RSPREDDIT. Citation 12 for wxSand is from Joystiq/Engadget, which are reliable sources per WP:VG/RS, but the source is rather brief and doesn't really seem like substantial coverage to me so wxSand could probably be removed unless other sources are found. I don't think that any of the linked sources for Burning Sand are reliable. Per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, Wikipedia articles don't list/say every detail related to a topic, so 'List of falling-sand games' should be non-exhaustive and list only notable entries. A venue other than Wikipedia for contributing info about the game could be something like MobyGames. Waxworker (talk) 07:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I'm not mistaken, notability guidelines for content within articles and lists have to be agreed upon collectively by the editors if it's not already following common guidelines for that
I quote
"While notability is often a criterion for inclusion in overview lists of a broad subject, it may be too stringent for narrower lists; one of the functions of many lists on Wikipedia is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles, so common sense is required in establishing criteria for a list."
the content within that table does not follow any of the 3 "Common selection criteria"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists#Selection_criteria
WP:NNC
WP:ARTN
if I remember what I looked up literally yesterday.
I don't think it's the right thing to do to remove wxSand from the list.
I don't think it's the right thing to keep sandBoxels off of the list.
the genre happens to have few external sources because of the small niche genre
not because these games are irrelevant within the genre
But because the genre itself is niche, and the documentation that was around is dying, and I feel like a degree of common sense has to be applied here when thinking about
"oh, what goes on this list or within this table?"
wikipedia says :
article being the operating keyword.
this is kind of a jumbled list of thoughts and references I'll go back over later and actually formalize it when i have a bit of time. until then, you don't have to pretend I'm trying to make coherent argument until then.
pff running out of space so it's deleting previous lines. Catterclysm (talk) 22:20, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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