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Current disputes

2023 Manipur violence

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Tms369 on 05:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2023 Manipur violence (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Tms369 (talk · contribs)
• Kautilya3 (talk · contribs)
• Chaipau (talk · contribs)
• Roman3141 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The editors active on that page have ignored my request to edit the lines "The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered only after the Kuki rebellion of 1917–19,[50] by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state.". I have brought several pieces to the talk page showing that it is factually wrong, but they have fallen on deaf ears. They have also deleted a topic on the talk page without settling the dispute.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[1]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Deleting the lines or replacing it with "After the Anglo-Manipur war of 1891, the administration of Manipur was taken over by the British. They continued to administer the hill areas directly even after establishing a form of native rule in 1907. They justified this hill-valley administrative divide on their plea that the peoples were different. Scholars believe this divide had far-reaching effects on the relation of the hill-valley peoples.".

Summary of dispute by Kautilya3

The page is on 2023 Manipur violence which started on 3 May and is still ongoing even after four months. The line that the filing party disputes is taken from a journal article written by a well-recognised JNU scholar, Thongkholal Haokip, with a long record of high-quality scholarship. Contrary to their claim, the filing party did not bring forward any sources that proved it to be "factually wrong". I am happy to participate in the dispute resolution discussion, provided the original disputing party Roman3141, and the editing party Chaipau also participate. (I am not sure why Roman3141 has not been invited here. If they do not dispute the content any more, they need to say so, either here or on the talk page.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Chaipau

Kautilya3 has stated the situation correctly. In addition, Haokip's claim is supported not just by his scholarship but also by a pattern of valley-hills relationships in Assam, Manipur and Southeast Asia that has been widely reported in scholarship and has support across multiple academic disciplines. Thus any objection has to very specifically show academic support that the Kuki/Naga regions were not part of this pattern. Though the issue was raised by Roman3141 they have not cited any reference to support the objection. Tms369, on the other hand, has cited some references. u:Kautilya3 has addressed each of the citations, and found no support for the objection. Also, u:Kautilya3 has cited additional references that support Haokip's claim. Furthermore, I have found that the material cited by u:Tms369 conversely supports Haokip instead.

If this DR process is instituted, I will participate.

Chaipau (talk) 13:22, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

2023 Manipur violence discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Manipur)

User:Kautilya3 says that they will participate in moderated discussion if User:Chaipau and User:Roman3141 participate. All editors have been notified. Roman3141 has not edited in ten days. Participation in moderated discussion is voluntary.

Please read DRN Rule D. We can begin moderated discussion with the editors who have responded, or we can close this case with instructions to resume discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Manipur)

I am ok to participate without Roman3141, assuming they have no further interest. I think it would be best to start with understanding the perceived issues with the version of the content on the page. Can the filing party state what is "factually wrong" about it? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:13, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The issues Kautilya mentioned have been discussed at length on the article's talk page. One of the topics which I put up has unfortunately been taken down. I am now ready to start moderated discussions with the parties who have responded. --Tms369 (talk) 05:20, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Manipur)

Please read DRN Rule D again. This is the rule that is used when the topic is contentious, and this dispute is about a state in India. Be civil and concise. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your answers to the community, and to the moderator, who represents the community. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article, so I am asking each of the editors what they want to change in the article, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. It is not necessary at this time to explain why you want to make a change; we can discuss reasons after we know what language in the article is being disputed. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Manipur)

I am to reiterate that I want either the removal of the lines "The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered only after the Kuki rebellion of 1917–19,[50] by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state." or replacement of it with more factually correct statements that we can all come to an agreement upon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tms369 (talk • contribs) 05:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I am satisfied that the line is fine as it is. But I am open to be persuaded otherwise. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:11, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I am satisfied that the line reflects the academic consensus at this point based on the evidence provided by the objectors and additional readings. I am open to be persuaded, and I shall seek reconciliation of new findings with the current findings. Chaipau (talk) 11:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Manipur)

The article content in question is in the Background section, in the second paragraph, and reads:

The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered only after the Kuki rebellion of 1917–19, by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state.

User:Tms369 wishes to rewrite these sentences to read:

After the Anglo-Manipur war of 1891, the administration of Manipur was taken over by the British. They continued to administer the hill areas directly even after establishing a form of native rule in 1907. They justified this hill-valley administrative divide on their plea that the peoples were different. Scholars believe this divide had far-reaching effects on the relation of the hill-valley peoples.

Is this rewrite agreeable to the other editors? If not, please either explain why that is not acceptable, or discuss how to rework it in the section that I am providing for back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:27, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Manipur)

Kautilya3

In the first place, we normally include in the "Background" section of a page only those aspects of the background that are mentioned in the reliable sources on the main topic. (That is the case for the current line.) Consulting disparate sources and constructing our narrative of what the background is, is considered WP:OR.

The filing party's proposal is very much of this kind. It talks about Manipur getting taken over by the British, then something about 1907, and then blames the British for creating a "hill-valley administrative divide". No doubt some scholars blame the British, but this is not a consensus view, because the fact that the hill people and valley people have separate histories, cultural norms and administrative/social structures is well-recognized. The cited source says, rather, that an "intractable hills-valley divide" has been created in this decade by the valley people's attempts to erase the constitutional protections granted to the hill people and the hill people's opposition to these measures. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment from Chaipau

The alternative statement is not acceptable for the following reasons:

1. There is no counterpart for the sentence "The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples." This sentence is attributed to a WP:RS and there is no reason to drop it.
2. The first sentence in the alternative text "After the Anglo-Manipur war of 1891, the administration of Manipur was taken over by the British." is a generic statement, that ignores the valley and hills distinctions. Since 2023 Manipur violence is about violence between the Meitei people (from the valley) and the Kuki people (from the hills), it is important to show the distinctions, if any. The British became a power in Manipur after the First Indo-Burma war in 1825, and installed Gambhir Singh in power who was very friendly, whereas they considered the Kuki in the south as "hostile"—before the 1891 uprising.
3. The second sentence in the alternative text "They continued to administer the hill areas directly even after establishing a form of native rule in 1907." is inaccurate. Though the British had nominally occupied the hills area, they did not administer it, as is clear from the quote submitted by u:Tms369 himself which I had pointed out here. The British preferred to leave the Kukis alone, which they did till the Kuki uprising.
4. The next two sentences are also inaccurate. They argue that there was no difference between the valleys and the hills and that they were divided by the British. There is extensive literature on the ethnic/social/cultural/structural differences between the valley and hills and within the hills themselves (Naga/Kuki).

References

Third statement by moderator (Manipur)

It appears that each editor disagrees with the other's preferred language for the Background section. I have previously asked the editors not to engage in back-and-forth discussion, but I think that back-and-forth discussion will be useful at this point to see if a compromise wording can be reached. So please discuss in the section for that purpose, for two or three days. If compromise wording cannot be agreed on, we will give the community a choice between the two versions above via a Request for Comments, but we should try to compromise first. So please discuss in the section for back-and-forth discussion. Be concise. Overly long statements are not useful. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I agree with Kautilya3's characterization: I agree that current line is backed by WP:RS, as I have explained in point #1; and I agree that the filing party's proposal is WP:OR, which I explain in points #2, #3, and #4 above. The disagreement is between Kautilya3 and I on one side and Tms369, the filing party, on the other.

I think it looks like Kautilya3 and I are disagreeing because we had written our second statements independently without either of us knowing what the other has written. I encountered an edit conflict when I was publishing my statement, but I did not check Kautilya3's statement successfully publishing mine at the second attempt. Chaipau (talk) 13:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (Manipur)

I suggest that the current phrasing "The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered only after the Kuki rebellion of 1917–19, by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state." be retained. I agree with Kautilya3 that this is attributed by WP:RS. I suggest we reject the alternative text since it is WP:OR, as suggested also by Kautilya3. Chaipau (talk) 14:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Administration

I will try to be as concise as possible:

• After the Anglo-Manipuri war of 1891, the hill areas were brought under British rule and the hill administration became the personal responsibility of the political agent. (Sitlhou, pp 71)(Kshetri, p4)

• In 1893, the hill areas were divided for the first time into five sub-divisions. The sub-divisions were looked after by lamsubedars and lambus. (Dena, p82)(Kshetri, p4)(Sitlhou, pp 72)

• Even after the institution of Native Rule in 1907 under raja Churachand Singh, the hill areas continued to be administered by the British. (Dena, p60)(Kshetri, p4)

• The British justified the exclusion of the hill administration from Native Rule on the plea that the peoples were different. This was a "divide and rule" policy (Dena, p75)(Sitlhou, pp 72)

I had already submitted these to the editors but they have ignored it, deleted the topics it was presented in (including the one linked in this talk page) without settling the issue, and are now accusing these suggestions as being original research. Tms369 (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

---

---

---

Listed below are the administrative changes after the Kuki Rebellion of 1917-1919 for the reference of the community and the moderator:

• State durbar for administration of the hill areas was continued but there were improvements in the system;
• President of the durbar became responsible for the administration of the entire hill areas on behalf of the raja;
• Administrative headquarters were set up in Ukhrul, Tamenlong and Churachandpur. But the rest continued to be administered from Imphal by the President of the durbar;
• A separate budget for the hill areas was set aside for the first time.

(Sitlhou, pp 72)(Dena, p83-84)(Kshetri, p5)

All these show there was a re-organisation in the prevailing administrative system of the British - which is in contrast to the current narrative of the line in the article. Tms369 (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Tms369, you have given four bullet points with individual citations and four other bullet points with bundled citations. But it is not clear what these points are about. If they are supposed to be support for your version of the main article passage, I am afraid they still constitute WP:SYNTHESIS (WP:OR) as indicated by your phrase: "all these show". You are drawing your conclusions from disparate sources which are at best tangential to the present topic, viz., 2023 Manipur violence.

Note that Lal Dena, whom you have cited several times, has written a magazine article this month, explaining the relevance of the history to the present topic. In it, he unequivocally states:

In the pre-colonial period, the hill people lived as independent and sovereign nations in their respective chiefdoms, free from any external control.

Given that Lal Dena is a highly notable historian and he is writing directly on the present topic, this observation should receive very high weight, and should be incorporated in the narrative.

A case can be made that the references to "1917–1919" should be replaced by "1891", because at least some hill administration came into being in that year. But many scholars say that it was not substantial. For example, Kshetri, whom you have cited several times, says, the British rule [introduced in 1891] did not bring any marked change in the hill administration save for certain changes at the organisational level. So we have to say that this claim does not have scholarly consensus. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:05, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The individual citations are to specify the page numbers only. Administration before the pre-colonial period, i.e. pre 1891, is a separate discussion. Let's keep it on-topic. Tms369 (talk) 13:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

What exactly is the "topic"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:02, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Administration of the hill areas by the British, post colonialisation i.e. post Anglo-Manipur war of 1891. Lets not go off track and dilute this noticeboard with off-topic discussions. Tms369 (talk) 03:22, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

This call that this discussion be limited to the post-1891 period---I am seeing here for the first time. It seems an arbitrary limit, and I see no justification for it. Lal Dena, in his Outlook article on the violence and referenced above, begins with:

Two immutable factors inevitably created a cyst of social incommunicability between the Meiteis, who lived in the valley, and the tribal people, who lived in the hill territory — the Kangleipak kingdom was mainly confined to the valley of about 700 square miles (Sushil Kumar Sharma, 2017:17), and, to add to its exclusivity, it adopted Hinduism at the beginning of the 18th century.

This reiterates the claim that the hills were unadministered before 1826 which is the moment when the colonial period started---the British established Gambhir Singh, one of the claimants to the throne of the Kangleipak kingdom, instituted a political agent, and made the kingdom a protectorate. 1891 is not the beginning of colonialism in Manipur, and this arbitrary limit makes no sense. Chaipau (talk) 11:37, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

---

---

---

Regarding the Zomia reference:

The article the other editors are referencing, i.e. Mr. T. Haokip's, cites J.C. Scott.

According to J.C. Scott, Zomia includes "all the lands at altitudes above 300 meters stretching from the Central Highlands of Vietnam to northeastern India".

As per his definition, the Imphal valley is very much a part of the Zomia landmass. Manipur is in northeastern India and lowest elevation of the Imphal Valley is 746m above MSL. The current line "The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia" is therefore misleading at best, since it implies exclusion of the Imphal Valley. Tms369 (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I am afraid that the definition you have provided for Zomia, is not standard---it must be your own. The definition of Zomia, as given in a WP:RS, is given in terms of an elevation, yes, but it has also a human component, where his elevated regions are inhabited by minority groups:

...the Southeast Asian Massif, the highland social space where the minority groups being studied here dwell. This area encompasses a large portion of what van Schendel has arguably named Zomia and equates roughly to what Scott, following van Schendel, terms eastern Zomia. These highlands spread over a transnational domain that, most of the time, are situated above 500 metres elevation...it encompasses the high ranges extending southeast from the Himalayas and the Tibetan Plateau, and all the monsoon high country drained by the lower Brahmaputra, the Irrawaddy, Salween, Chao Phraya, Mekong and Red Rivers and their tributaries.

Thus, the regions Northeast India does constitute a part of Zomia. Whether the Imphal valley too is a part of Zomia, Wikipedia is not equipped to decide---and so far I have seen no WP:RS claim that it is. But we have seen examples of the Kuki and the Naga people being claimed as Zomia. In fact, the Zo in Zo people, of which the Kuki are a part, is the Zo in Zomia, as also given in the Wiktionary definition of wiktionary:Zomia.

That the Zomia conceptual frame is now deeply entrenched in the study of Northeast India is given by this quote:

In the case of Northeast India, political scientist Sanjib Baruah (2005; 2007) has, for example, applied Scott’s term “nonstate spaces” in a compelling way to make sense of the ongoing political turmoil in the region. Others have followed him, and today it seems hard to think of Northeast India outside of Scott’s conceptual framework.

And the sentence which you object to is also cited to WP:RS. It cannot be dropped on the basis of a Wikipedia editors personal definition of Zomia, and since there is an extensive academic literature backing it up. Karlsson does not agree that Zomia is misleading---rather scholars have found that the Zomia framework illuminates the issues in Northeast India. Chaipau (talk) 19:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC) (edited) 22:54, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

You are free to retort but please don't put words in my mouth. "Karlsson does not agree that Zomia is misleading": I merely said that your use of Zomia in that particular line is misleading because it goes against its very definition. And so far all you've done is brought another definition which emphasises my point. Tms369 (talk) 03:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The current sentence "The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples." is attributed to Haokip (2015) and specifically it is a fair paraphrase of this part of the article:

On the other hand, the hill areas of the present-day Manipur had been a free hill country and largely unadministered even during the British rule till the Kuki uprising (1917–19). It is treated as 'illegible space' (Scott 2000) and a separate sub-cultural zone within the larger region known as 'Zomia' and the people regarded as 'non-state peoples' (Scott 2009: 23).

If you are claiming that Haokip's claim is misleading then I would like to ask you to present WP:RS that specifically challenges Haokip on this point and we can discuss how to reconcile the two sources. But if you are claiming the paraphrase is wrong and does not represent Haokip's claim, we can discuss how we can rephrase the sentence to better represent Haokip's claim. Chaipau (talk) 09:44, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Read my above points and references. Tms369 (talk) 13:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Your references do not specifically contradict Haokip. Nor do they support your other claims on administration of the hills before 1917, as Kaurilya3 has pointed out. Chaipau (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Please state clearly why you consider the sentence to be misleading. It is unclear what the references are supporting. Chaipau (talk) 11:56, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Fourth statement by moderator (Manipur)

It appears that back-and-forth discussion is not getting closer to resolution. So back-and-forth may continue in the section for the purpose, but I will also ask the editors to resume answering my questions.

First, is the only area of disagreement the Background section about the historical context concerning the cultural differences between the valley people and the hill people? Knowing nothing of northeastern Indian history, I am deeply skeptical of any claim that there was no difference between the hill people and the valley people before the conquest by the British. There are always cultural differences between hill culture and valley culture, reflecting geography, and they are usually significant. Conquerors, including European colonialists, exploited (and often worsened) existing differences much more often than they created differences. The question should be what the differences were and who is a mutually acceptable source. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

However, second, if the editors cannot agree on what to say about the historical differences between the hill culture and the valley culture, can we agree either to a vague handwave, or to saying nothing?

Third, am I correct that it is two-to-one in favor of retaining the current language or something close to the current language?

Fourth, if there is no agreement, an RFC will be used, and each editor should be ready to propose the wording that they would like to be a choice in the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (Manipur)

Tms369

Robert, first, the disagreement is about the historical context of British administration in the hill areas. All sources point to the start of it being 1891 but the current narrative is 1919.

Second, I have no objection about the cultural differences. There are cultural differences even between the hill tribes themselves. The materials cited claim, and as you have pointed out, the administrative setup of the colonials created a big chasm by widening the divide.Tms369 (talk) 04:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Chaipau

My reply to the four queries/observations from the moderator:

1. Yes, there are major cultural difference between the valley and the hills. There are differences not just in culture but in form of governance, society, etc.
2. In the given context, we need to just mention the past differences that are relevant to the present conflict---as pointed out by reliable scholars.
3. Yes. Kautilya3 and I favor retaining the current language (or close to the current language).
4. Yes, I am agreeable.

Chaipau (talk) 00:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Manipur)

Two editors want to use the existing wording. The filing editor wants to change the wording about the Background. The other editors have said that the proposed revised wording is original research. The filing editor can either agree that they are in the minority, in which case this dispute will be closed, or they can explain how their proposed wording is directly based on sources. It may be directly based on primary, secondary, or tertiary sources, but it must be based on the sources, or it is synthesis. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:57, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (Manipur)

Tms369 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tms369 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

My proposed wording is based on the three sources I referenced in the back-and-forth section. I will put the references here again:

After the Anglo-Manipuri war of 1891, the hill areas were brought under British rule and the hill administration became the personal responsibility of the political agent... In 1893, the hill areas were divided for the first time into five sub-divisions. The sub-divisions were looked after by lamsubedars and lambus... Even after the institution of Native Rule in 1907 under raja Churachand Singh, the hill areas continued to be administered by the British.

The British justified the exclusion of the hill administration from Native Rule on the plea that the peoples were different. This was a "divide and rule" policy

Kshetri, R. (2006) made no mention of the "divide and rule" policy, but all three sources agree on the start of British administration at 1891. Tms369 (talk) 05:37, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Kautilya3

I beg to differ with the moderator about the issue of "OR". When we discuss the content that should go into the "Background" section of a page, the term is often used to label disparate facts that editors want to bring which do not have an impact on the main topic. WP:DUE and WP:WEIGHT would be better policies to consult for this purpose.

The filing party's excessive focus on 1891 and on what happened between then and 1919 seems intended to suggest that the British took over the hill areas in 1891 and separated it from the valley. It completely ignores the fact that prior to 1891, the valley's rulers had not administered the hill areas. The hill areas were "independent and sovereign" in the words of Lal Dena, a senior professor of history who studied the British policy in Manipur. So, if the British instituted different administration for the hills and the valley, it was not a new division that they created. That division was already present.

Kshetri, a professor of public administration, states that whatever administration was introduced in 1819 was not substantial....the British rule did not bring any marked change in the hill administration save for certain changes at the organisational level.Stlhou, who is summarising Kshetri and Dena, writes, The colonial officials adopted a paternalistic attitude towards the hill people, which was merely confined to the formal recognition of tribal chiefs. So, Haokip (the cited source) is right to ignore the 1891 changes and mention only the administration introduced in 1919.

In any case, whether it was 1891 or 1919, the main point is that it was only the British that introduced state administration into the hill areas. Prior to that it was a "free country" (in the words of Haokip). So, as a compromise, I am fine to replace the references to 1917–1919 by 1891 in the present text, and add Lal Dena's current magazine article as the support for it. I don't see any need for additional changes in the text regarding times that are long gone. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:22, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

So, the new text would be something along the lines of

The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered only after 1891 by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state.

References

Chaipau

I agree with u:Kautilya3's suggested text, with some minor changes (given below in bold).

The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered in effect only after 1891 1917-19 by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state.

I am suggesting these changes because of the direct quote of Haokip (2015) that is cited. The quote is "largely unadministered even during the British rule till the Kuki uprising (1917–19)".

• The year mentioned in the reference is 1917-19, not 1891.
• The hills were largely unadministered till 1917. The British excluded the hills from any contact with the valley but they left it alone. This is also supported by Lal Dena. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaipau (talk • contribs)

I think Lal Dena would not agree that there was no administration prior to 1917-19. He mentions lambus, lam-subedars and pothang during that period. There was certainly some measure of state administration, however unsatisfatory it might have been, which was cause for grievances and the eventual rebellion during 1917-19. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:35, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The claim is not that they had no administration, but that they were largely unadministered. Soon after 1891, Lal Dena writes---"This officer, who was already over-burdened with his duty in the durbar failed to keep himself in touch with the people in the hills. As a result, the British officers failed to get in touch with the hill tribes...".

• The lambus were just "interpreters, process servers and peons" (Dena, Pudaite, 2023). They were not exactly administrative officers who administered the hills.
• In 1891, the British just formalized the authority of the tribal chiefs. So both Dena and Sitlhou agree that nothing much changed in 1891.
• The division of the hill districts happened in 1893. Shakespeare's administrative bandobast excluded the hills (Sitlhou 2015, p72). So there was a very slow creep in administrative control that eventually gave rise to 1917-1919.
• It was only after the 1917-1919 that there were serious administrative changes in the hills, and even then village administration was left to the chiefs (Sitlhou 2015, p72).

So, to avoid any WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH, it is best to stick to a direct quote from a WP:RS with a date. If there is any other direct claim on administration with date, other than Haokip, we could use that instead after considering WP:DUE. Chaipau (talk) 18:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

If you want a direct quote, you can use Gangmumei Kamei: After the British conquest of Manipur in 1891, the Hill Areas came under the rule of the British Political Agent who acted on behalf of minor Raja Churachand Singh. I don't see any scholar pin-pointing the difference in administration before 1919 and after 1919, other than the fact that more British officers were appointed. So, it seems pointless hair-splitting to me, for something that is of no consequence to the main topic. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:42, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Since we are claiming the hill people were "non-state" a date (or a range of dates) that correctly defines when external administration was imposed, and in what form, is definitely relevant in the background. If you would not like to split hair, then we should just let the current year stay, which is 1917-19, and not change it to 1891. Chaipau (talk) 21:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Tms369

It seems user Kautilya3, through my sources and through his own research, seems to be warmer to my suggestion. We seem to agree that administration did start in 1891. We may differ on some areas and the sources used. He suggests adding Lal Dena's magazine article (dated 7 Sep 2023), but I prefer what Dena's textbook and the other peer-reviewed sources I presented say, since Dena's current magazine is not peer-reviewed and is co-written by some unknown. I think we can work something out ultimately. But user Chaipau seems to not have budged. What should be the way forward, Robert? Tms369 (talk) 05:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (Manipur)

If the progress is between two editors but not a third, the content dispute will have to be resolved by a Request for Comments. It will be simpler if the RFC gives the community two choices on the Background wording. So the two editors who are about to reach agreement should continue to try to reach agreement on "their" version. Each editor may provide "their" version of the Background material in the space for sixth statements. Back-and-forth discussion, especially to arrive at agreement between two editors, may take place in the section below for back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors (Manipur)

Tms369

My preferred statement, which I believe will be more in-line with Kautilay3's, would be along the lines of the following:

The hill tribes, whose administration had largely been left to the respective chiefs known as Khullakpa by the Meitei Kings, came to be administered by the British after the Anglo-Manipur war of 1891. The British continued to administer the hill districts directly until 1947. Scholars believe the colonial administration employed the "divide and rule" policy which widened existing divide between the peoples.

I'll give my thoughts on why references on J.C.Scott's Zomia should be avoided in the new back-and-forth section. Tms369 (talk) 07:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Chaipau

I do not agree with the characterization of u:Tms369. The only issue that needs to be sorted out between u:Kautilya3 and I is whether to use the year 1891 or 1917-19. Both of us agree that we should retain the reference to Zomia and the rest of the wording. I am agreeable to the moderator's suggestion that if Kautilya3 and I are unable to come to an agreement on the year, then we will have to go to an RFC on this point. Chaipau (talk) 14:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Kautilya3

I am revising my proposed text in the light of Chaipau's objections:

The hill regions are noted by scholars as forming part of Zomia inhabited by "non-state" peoples. They came to be administered only after 1891 by British administrators without the involvement of the Meitei state, which was made more substantial after the Kuki Rebellion of 1917–1919.

References

The rationale for the adjustment is bascially the WP:NPOV policy. There is no consensus among scholars about the date when the administration became effect. Some say 1891 and others 1919. So we are trying to cover both the viewpoints. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Kautilya3's rationale that it is best to give both dates to conform to WP:NPOV. The proposed text and the cited references are acceptable to me. Chaipau (talk) 11:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator (Manipur)

It doesn't appear that there has been agreement, so it appears that we should use an RFC. Will each editor please provide the wording that they want to propose for the Background? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Are there any other issues?

Seventh statements by editors (Manipur)

All sources point to the start of administration as 1891, but they also talked about the administrative changes that occured after 1919. So I am fine with including that in my final proposal. My final proposal will, therefore, be something like:

The hill tribes, whose administration had largely been left to the respective chiefs known as Khullakpa by the Meitei Kings, came to be administered by the British after the Anglo-Manipur War of 1891. The British administrative control became more intensive after the Kuki Rebellion of 1917-19 and they continued to administer the hill areas directly until 1947. Scholars believe the colonial administration employed the "divide and rule" policy which widened existing divide between the peoples.

The only differences with Chaipau now seem to be the mention of J.C.Scott's Zomia. I stand by what Kamei said on that issue.

I also believe the above lines massively improve the current Background section- as it not only succinctly describes the complex relation between the hill tribes and the meiteis, but also mentions that deeper divisions were created during colonial administration.

I am happy to go to RfC with this statement.

More back-and-forth discussion (Manipur)

I suggest completely dropping references to J.C.Scott's Zomia in relation to discussion of North-East India. As A.L.Kamei states: However, Scott's central thesis of a valley-hill binary in the Northeast region is historically hard to sustain. Wouters (2012, 55) argues that in the Northeast, "the history of state-formation in the valleys was, to an extent, a history of nonstate peoples expanding their sway downwards, in the process of co-opting or scattering former rulers". More recent scholarship has suggested that Scott might have overstated his case of hill tribes as remnants of state evading population from the plains (Lieberman 2010, Aung-Thwin 2011, Wouters 2012).

In its stead, I have suggested mentioning that the tribes were largely left to be self-administered through their respective chiefs/Khullakpas in the pre-colonial era. I hope this is agreeable to both the other editors. Tms369 (talk) 07:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

You have provided no WP:RS in support of your demand that the Zomia word should be dropped. The use of the word Zomia is specifically attributed to Haokip. And I have given other references that show that there is wide use and acceptance in scholarship on the application of Scott's framework of Zomia. Chaipau (talk) 15:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Addendum: You have used the quote above selectively. The author himself admits that the framework is widely used. The only specific example Kamei provides is the lack of support in the valley, which is not being claimed here at all. That it is not applicable in the hills as well, is his opinion, which is FRINGE. Chaipau (talk) 15:44, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that assessment from A. L. Kamei is not very thoughtful. Scholars didn't use the term "divide" to mean conflict; they used it to mean the two sets of people go their own ways. But he has much more substantial discussion later on about the ground realities of Manipur. That discussion entirely supports the Zomia-like thesis. For example,

Oinam Bhagat has pointed out that territorial conquest and settlement of the hill areas was not a practice of the Meitei kings but subjugation and control of hill tribes was more in terms of their military defeats.

So nobody has made any kind of case to suggest that the Manipur kings made any effort to administer the hills.

I have proposed text above (in my "Sixth statement") that takes into account both of your concerns. I hope it finds acceptance. If not, I suggest we go for an RfC. I will be offline for about a week starting tomorrow. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:57, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

In reply to Chaipau, I have not used it selectively.

The full quote is:

Despite the fact that the book falls short of incorporating emperical references from Northeast India, it has enthusiastically inspired a wide scholarship on the hill-valley divide in Northeast India. (points out why the book is popular in the region). However, Scott's central thesis of a valley-hill binary in the Northeast region is historically hard to sustain. Wouters (2012, 55) argues that in the Northeast, "the history of state-formation in the valleys was, to an extent, a history of nonstate peoples expanding their sway downwards, in the process of co-opting or scattering former rulers". More recent scholarship has suggested that Scott might have overstated his case of hill tribes as remnants of state evading population from the plains (Lieberman 2010, Aung-Thwin 2011, Wouters 2012)

So, the book didn't take into consideration the history of Northeast India, and unsurprisingly fails when applied in this region.

In reply to Kautilya3, I, unfortunately, don't find your suggestion acceptable. "Zomia-like thesis" is OR.

And there were attempts made by the meitei kings to administer the hills more intensely:

(Kshetri, p4) The central supervision over the hills areas became more active during the reign of King Charairongba. It was during the reign of Charairongba that the Haomacha Loisang, the Department of hill tribes was established after the discord of his son Garibniwaj a Thangal ally. The Meetei title of Khullakpa, Ching anglakpa, 'Mantri', 'Senapati' were also introduced in the village administration

(A.L.Kamei, pp76): The increasing hostilities can perhaps be observed with the imposition of Lallup in the tribal villages along the trade routes in 1735

However, I do believe majority of the earlier meitei kings simply left the administration to their chiefs and were mostly concerned with collection of tributes. So, I will be sticking with my suggestion. There are differences to work out but since user Kautilya3 is going to be offline, I am okay to go to RFC with my suggestion in the Sixth Statements by editors. Tms369 (talk) 09:58, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, control along the trade routes had always existed, both because it is practical and because it is necessary. But it cannot be generalised to all of hill areas. In particular, the southern hills of Manipur, which are dominated by Kuki tribes, were untouched by the kings till the British administration. The majority of the Churachandpur district was not even theoretically claimed by the Manipur kings till the Chivu expedition (1871-72). There was no trade route there either. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply to Tms365's response to Chaipau

• The cited work, Kamei (2023/2024), was originally a PhD thesis that has been/will be published; and the regular WP:SCHOLARSHIP rules regarding published thesis apply. This work has been/will be published posthumously; and though the original thesis has been edited, there is no indication it has been further peer-reviewed. In effect, this means that we can quote Kamei with lower WP:WEIGHT as given in WP:RS.
• As Amit Prakash has pointed out in the Foreword, "Expanding on his (Kamei's) interest in deploying a Foucauldian framework to the study of state-society relations...", the primary focus of Kamei in this thesis is the application Foucaultian framework to movements against anti-tribal bills as he says in his own words: "Drawing from the above conceptual framework, the study seeks to illustrate the anti-tribal bills movement as Foucauldian counter-constructs..." (Section 4.2). It is in this context Kamei says what you quote above: "Despite the fact that the book falls short of incorporating emperical references from Northeast India, it has enthusiastically inspired a wide scholarship on the hill-valley divide in Northeast India." Therefore:
  • Kamei is admitting that Scott's formalism has already been inspired by a wide scholarship, and is the de rigueur formalism
  • Kamei is attempting the introduction of a new formalism

The argument that Scott did not provide empirical evidence from Northeast India is true for Kamei's case as well, since Foucault did not provide empirical evidence from Northeast India either. In other words, it is too early to say that Foucault's formalism has dethroned Scott's formalism in the scholarship on Northeast India.

• The case of formalism is quite different from the historical evidence of valley control over hills. Kamei himself remarks in Section 4.5 that: "This is perhaps indicative that territorially most of the hill areas in present-day Manipur were not under the direct control of the kingdom" Kamei also points out the institution of loipotkaba as evidence of when paying tribute is no the evidence of administration: "Loipotkaba is a practice wherein a conquered tribe, mostly those in the vicinity of the valley, who were otherwise not under the administration of the monarch would have to pay an annual tribute to Meitei king..." Two counter examples are given from Meitei accounts where it could be interpreted that the Meitei kings did attempt to extend rule over the hills; but as Kamei admits, given above, there was no evidence of either historic or extant Meitei administration at the beginning of the colonial period.

Chaipau (talk) 15:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Eighth statement by moderator (Manipur)

I have created a draft RFC at Talk:2023 Manipur violence/RFC on Background and am trying to capture A and B, or A, B, and C as the options for the community to choose between. Please update options A and B if they are not as I tried to capture them, and please add option C with text if there is an option C. Once we agree on what the choices are, we can start the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:28, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Eighth statements by editors (Manipur)

Chaipau

Thank you for setting up the survey. I have synced the version B to the consensus text (between Kautilya3 and me).

I made a good faith attempt in the seventh round of statements and discussions to demonstrate that the very author/reference Tms369 has been citing, Kamei (2023/24), had himself admitted that the dominant formalism adopted by most scholars in the study of Northeast India is Scott's Zomia; and Kamei is using a different formalism, Foucault's counter-construct, which is a novel application that is yet to be endorsed in the literature. Given the evidence so far and the fact that Tms369 has not come around to accepting the dominant scholarship in this issue, I do not see any possibility that they will every come around. You have rightly identified that there is no point in attempting further convergence.

Nevertheless, based on the discovery so far Kautilya3 and I have come to a consensus text, which is the version B in the survey, which differs only slightly with version A, the original text. Request 1: Since Kautilya3 is away this week, could we please wait for him so all of us are on board regarding the next steps?

Tms369

Added option C to the draft. Since option B was originally proposed by user Kautilya3 in the Sixth Statement by Editors, I assume it's safe we go ahead with the RfC. We don't want to waste any more of the moderator's time. Tms369 (talk) 06:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Ninth statement by moderator (Manipur)

The RFC is now running, and should run for another 29 days. Are there any other issues, or should I close this dispute because it will be decided by the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Ninth statements by editors (Manipur)

No issues on my end. Thank you for your time, Robert. Tms369 (talk) 08:10, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Football Season articles and football results articles

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by PicturePerfect666 on 21:57, 17 September 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Football Season articles and football results articles (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• PicturePerfect666 (talk · contribs)
• Stevie fae Scotland (talk · contribs)
• PeeJay (talk · contribs)
• Govvy (talk · contribs)
• Seasider53 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Dispute regarding the use of Wikipedia tables or a Wikipedia template to display the results of football matches.

There is an ongoing discussion which has reached an impasse. It is claimed on one side that only Wikipedia tables are acceptable for of displaying football results. On the other side, other users are saying it is perfectly acceptable and fine to use a Wikipedia template to display the results.

The template in question is Template:Football box.

It is getting very circular and is ink by the barrel style contributions. Some editors claim this or that policy or guideline supports their preferred version.

There are claims of 'consensus' existing already but this has not been shown by those claiming such a consensus. It is claimed this RfC following a previous dispute resolution, established a consensus, There was also this discussion which is cited but it expressly is resolved as ‘No consensus to move from the template’, other non-consensus discussions are also referenced to try and support the table only position and the scrapping of the use of templates.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

There needs to be fresh input, opening up to the widest possible audience and uninvolved editors to look at this without having a side in this. This is needed as it is currently preventing actual progress from being made on the articles. it is bogging down in the process and not building an encyclopaedia. Fresh eyes, a wide audience & definition here greater than just the local consensus which is not known about and widely unenforced except by a few in a few circumstance. It's the only way out.

Summary of dispute by Stevie fae Scotland

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Basically, Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons was changed without discussion. I reverted based on previous consensus (the links are in the discussions listed above and here). I had thought this was settled based on this RfC following a previous dispute resolution but I guess not. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by PeeJay

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Due to disagreements about the format that football club season articles should take, discussions took place at WT:FOOTY to help codify a consistent format. This format can now be found here. User:PicturePerfect666 seems to be of the opinion that because we haven't been able to roll out that format across the several thousand articles it should apply to, we should simply accept that we're never going to be able to stamp out the other format and allow for both in the MOS. Considering discussions took place in order to standardise these articles, I don't see why we should simply give in to those who are unwilling to accept the agreed-upon format (or are unaware of it). – PeeJay 23:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Govvy

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Style guide should be able to show alternatives, I don't know why you would remove one. There is no direct consensus, but as per stated in conversation, overall usage does suggest there is a degree of consensus by usage. One can not enforce their will on others and one should not enforce their will on others. And frankly, I am more bothered that some people are using Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons as a BATTLEGROUND. Per page history, but it's a shitshow, Stevie fae Scotland broke 3RR, and now PeeJay is playing enforcer, but for what. Something that doesn't exist. I haven't seen much competence around this issue. Using WP:ACCESS for removal is just an excuse. Govvy (talk) 07:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Seasider53

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Football Season articles and football results articles discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by moderator on football season articles

This appears to be a content dispute that is not about one article but a large number of articles. DRN is usually for content disputes about one article, or occasionally a small group of articles. There has been discussion at WikiProject Football. There should be more discussion there. If this were one article, I would probably start moderated discussion here. If there should be moderated discussion, I am willing to act as a moderator at WikiProject Football, the association football talk page.

First, while we are here, I would like to identify the issues. Is the main issue whether to use wikitables or a template as the primary means to display results? Both are reasonable uses of the wiki software. Is there a reason why we cannot allow a choice? Are there any other issues? Are some editors being obstinate?

Please read DRN Rule A. I would like each editor to make a one-paragraph statement as to what they think the issues are. Do not reply to the statements of other editors. Be civil and concise. After I read the statements, I will decide whether to have continued discussion here or whether to open new moderated discussion at WikiProject Football. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors on football articles

The main issue for me was that the style guide was edited without discussion. That really should've triggered WP:BRD when I reverted it particularly as it says Please discuss any changes on the talk page before editing this page. If I'm honest, I don't think further discussion is needed as this was discussed at length in the previous dispute resolution process (my thoughts haven't changed and the issues I would raise again are all there) and the RfC resulted in a consensus. I don't think another discussion would result in a different consensus. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The claims you make in the discussions though do not reflect the outcome of the discussions. There has been no resolution to this ongoing issues which has rumbled for years looking at it. The claims of previous discussions reaching any consensus one way or the other are laughable. There must be more than this being pushed down the road again and again. It’s time to grasp the nettle and settle this. No more bogus claims of no existent consensus, no more just a few editors at a wiki project seemingly imposing their preferred version over others who are roundly using a different version. I would also like to point out only club season articles are affected as it seems nationalteams get templates exclusively.

time to sort this once and for all with a truly wide audience and truly substantive discussion not relying on other discussions or similar distractions. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 20:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

First statement by moderator on football season articles

I thought that my previous statement was clear, but maybe it wasn't. When I said Do not reply to the statements of other editors., I meant not to reply to the statements of other editors, but only to my questions. I should have said, one more time, to discuss edits, not editors, and to comment on content, not contributors. So I am saying that again. When I asked what the issues were, and whether the issue was whether to use a template or a table, I was not asking for complaints about history, or about who edited the style guide. If the issue is about style, the question should be what the style guide should say. Do not discuss previous consensus that has been ignored. It is probably best to start over and form a new consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Is the main issue whether to use wikitables or a template as the means to display results? If so, is there a reason that we cannot allow a choice?

Please read DRN Rule A again. I would like each editor to make a one-paragraph statement as to what they think the style or content issues are. Do not reply to the statements of other editors. Do not tell me who did what in the past. Be civil and concise.

I have asked a question, which is whether the issue is the template or the table. I have also asked what the style and content issues are. After the questions are answered, we can decide where further discussion can take place. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors on football articles

PicturePerfect666

Simply put there is a move by a small number of editors at Wikiproject Football to require the use of tables to show match results on club season articles and prevent the use of the template. There is no reason both cannot be used, and the style guide should reflect that it is openly acceptable for both to be used. I would like to make clear National Team Season articles, use the templates, and most (I am talking the vast majority) of Club Season articles for modern seasons (which are edited by the vast majority of new and casual users), use the template. If anything there is little reason to keep using the table in my opinion, it is complicated to edit for the uninitiated, and clunky on a page. The Template is what you see is what you get (WYSIWYG), plug-and-play style. However, I am happy to compromise that both are as acceptable as the other and for this to be reflected in the style guide and disseminated widely that both are acceptable. This however is a compromise and in my opinion, the clear use case is for the template as it is considerably easier. The compromise is for the acceptance that the Template and the Table are fine. There are bizarre claims of; MOS:Collapse, and MOS:ACCESS in particular a roundly ignored section on how to design tables, being violated, this is not supported in any way and is the worst kind of strawman wikilawyering. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 01:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Stevie fae Scotland

The footballbox does not meet MOS:ACCESS, specifically WP:DTT so should not be used in articles which list match results. If editors prefer using a template, Template:Football result list is available and is fully compliant with ACCESS. I would be happy to create additional templates in a similar style that would work on club articles if that would be an acceptable compromise. That would then allow editors a choice, make converting articles easier as many of the parameters are the same and ensure that we comply with Wikipedia policy. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 08:06, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator on football season articles

Do not edit Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons. It is the article (or project space page) under discussion, and one purpose of dispute resolution is to avoid edit-warring. Also, when I said to be civil, I also meant to be civil in edit summaries and to Assume Good Faith. One editor is casting aspersions in edit summaries.

It appears that one issue is that there is a template that does not satisfy accessibility guidelines, but that there is another template that does satisfy those guidelines. It then seems that the most reasonable compromise is to allow either a table, which is access-compliant, or the template that is access-compliant. Is that correct? Is there any reason that cannot be done? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors on football articles

Stevie fae Scotland

Yeah, that is correct. I have no issues with the access-complaint template's use and would be happy if it was incorporated into the style guide. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 19:16, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

PicturePerfect666

As far as I am aware there are no genuine access issues with the template and if those issues apply to the template then they apply equally to the table, I assume the colour is one of the access issues. The template is also widely used in a whole host of articles over 24,000 and to come along now and say there are access issues sounds like phishing for a problem which doesn't exist. If genuine access issues can be shown and not the weird rule on collapse, and not the weird MOS on how to do tables (which is widely ignored and enforcing it only here would be ridiculous) then I am happy to engage. Until then I have not seen or been shown any genuine access issues with the table. I would like to point out that there have been discussions of National Team results and there were no such concerns on the use of the same template there which resulted in the template not being used, infact the template on those articles is nigh on the exclusive presentation of results.

Until the so-called access issues are shown to be genuine and something universally (or genuinely widely and not selectively) enforced then I cannot get behind this sideshow argumentation and reject it as not genuine.

Any compromise about modifications to the existing template or even worse creating a new template in relation to meet these ludicrous and non-enforced so-called access requirements are totally and utterly spurious and should be left in the garbage from where they were dredged up from.

TL;DR - Access issues are a red herring and a total non-issue. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 19:47, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

PicturePerfect666, would you consider using either VoiceOver (Mac) or NonVisual Desktop Access to navigate both the wiki table and template-generated table? Depending on your operating system, you should be able to use one of them at no cost. The template-generated table is considerably harder to understand. For example, the template's "round" parameter appears visually as the leftmost column. In the HTML, it comes after the date and is not placed within a semantic column but within "small" tags. In this version of the page[2] I hear "Round: first round" read from the wiki table and just "one" with no context at all following the date in the template-generated table. Hope that gives some insight on the issues with the template, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Mistaken. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The above comments are noted as being left but are not being responded to and no action will be taken on their substance as there is a strict rule here not to reply to others as set out by the moderator. Please adhere to that rule. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 14:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator on football season articles

I have requested neutral opinions on this accessibility issue at two accessibility forums. I have not yet received an answer that is clearly from either forum, but we have a comment by User:Rjjiii. I would like to ask User:PicturePerfect666 to clarify their comment: Access issues are a red herring and a total non-issue. Does this mean that they do not intend to pay attention to the guidelines in the MOS? Do they mean that they should be ignored? Why are they a red herring and a total non-issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors on football articles

Second statement by PicturePerfect666

Access issue claims

It does not mean I intend to pay no attention to the guidelines. It is just a guide and not a policy. It is clear a consensus by use has formed (which is grounded in the policy of consensus).

I simply have not seen any evidence to suggest that the access issues raised are anything other than total red herrings. The claims being made are not genuine as far as I can see or at best are disputed. Some people are screaming screenreaders this and that while others are going the template causes zero screen reader issues.

There is no specificity in the parts of the guideline which are being violated. As such I am unable to make any comment on the specifics, as there are no specifics being raised.

Other users on the original discussion have weighed in to raise similar opinions as myself but have not commented here. There needs to be significant and greater detail than, "It is this guideline", this guideline and this guideline." What in those guidelines is the issue and how does it relate to the template? Where are the specific repeatable examples?

As for the comments by Rjjiii, I have no idea what they are talking about with HTML and other such things. In short, they are talking like a textbook written in a foreign language. For example, I have no idea what they mean by "semantic column". These issues if they were genuine would have been raised in a serious manner before, and the templates use in 24,000 or so articles, would have been curtailed a long time ago. The issues they raise are non-issues as far as I am concerned. I firmly believe the comments are not serious (although I do not doubt their good faith nature) with the line "The template-generated table is considerably harder to understand", which is 100% codswallop. From an editing point of view, the table is a minefield and disaster waiting to happen which requires one to be an expert in wiki-syntax. Whereas the template is WYSIWYG plug-and-play style.

In conclusion, the accessibility guideline is just that a guideline. It is clear, even if the issues are genuine, that the guide is not being followed by the majority of editors. Common sense dictates that consensus by use is occurring. The policy of consensus through editing as set out at WP:EDITCON clearly applies here, and the use in over 24,000 articles by a considerable number of varied and different editors shows consensus by use is clear.

TL;DR:

1. Are the access issues genuine?
2. What are the specific issues, not just shotgun posting of claimed violations of the guideline?
3. Why have these issues not been widely raised before?
4. Why is a guideline being used to attempt to trump a policy and overrule a consensus which has formed through use?

PicturePerfect666 (talk) 20:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Template v Table

Moving to other so-called issues raised, which are a complete fop, in particular the detritus claims of violations of WP:INDISCRIMINATE, of which no specifics are given as to how that is violated. It is clear the template is nothing of the sort. Couple that stance with the claims of 'irrelevant information' that has been roundly rejected previously in a previously widely participated discussion. Shows the substantive claims which are being synthetically generated are not genuine (even if they are made in good faith). The discussion in question is here. The discussion sets out specific criteria for moving from the template to the table which have been roundly ignored by those advocating for the discontinuation of the template in favour of the table. As a result nigh on all national team results use the collapsible template, which seems to hold no meaning to those pushing the 'template should be binned' position. (Also on an aside of irony here the question posed at that discussion is the mediator of this discussion.)

Moving to the to the table itself, there is so little information included and it is laied out so illogically, that it renders it a complete mess. For example, own goals scored for the opposition are not included. Only goals for the club the season article is for are included. The temas are not listed in a way which is done commonly in football, with the home team first when recording results. It always lists the subject of the article first. Why it is like this? I have no idea, but never have I seen a result of a football match not include the goals scores for both sides or not list the result as home and away. The table contents are so limited in value as to be completely useless to the casual or uninformed (on the subject) user of Wikipedia. The above discussion exhausted both sides of this discussion.

There are claims of internal discussion on the wikiproject, setting the consensus, which expressly violates

WikiProjects are not rule-making organizations, nor can they assert ownership of articles within a specific topic area. WikiProjects have no special rights or privileges compared to other editors and may not impose their preferences on articles. A WikiProject is fundamentally a social construct: its success depends on its ability to function as a cohesive group of editors working towards a common goal.

- As found at WikiProject Function.

As such, such claims must be ignored when they try to make out that the issue is already settled.

TL;DR:

1. Issues around the template violating the claimed elements of Wikipedia have been discussed and shown to be complete rubbish not supported by the wider community;
2. There have been discussions which have come to a result on the use of the template v the table, resulting in the template being exclusively used on national team articles, and exhausting the arguments being made by both sides on this issue;
3. The table in and of itself is a completely illogical mess coupled with insufficient information to be useful to the causal or new reader of the articles in question, and no changes have been made to try and fix the issues raised by the previous discussions;
4. Wikiproject discussions cannot impose their will on the wider community.

PicturePerfect666 (talk) 16:07, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by Rjjiii

I found out about this issue via Robert McClenon's request on MOS:ACCESS; I didn't think to announce that with my first comment. My initial observations were and will be technical because I am trying to provide feedback needed to address issues in the template. These issues are inherently somewhat technical.

To more clearly address the accessibility question: Template:Football box collapsible and Template:Football box both have minor accessibility issues. Neither one complies with MOS:ACCESS. Both templates generate lists that do comply with the accessibility guidelines. Both templates generate tables that do not comply with MOS:DTAB. Template:Football box is much closer to compliance. As these templates appear on tens of thousands of pages, I would imagine the most realistic course of action is to improve them.

Since my initial post, I tested out pages with each template. Here are notes on several accessibility issues with quotes from the Manual of Style:

1. "Data tables should always include a caption." The event parameter does not produce a caption element. (Perhaps to visually keep the event name above the time in Template:Football box.)
2. "it is necessary for the column headers and row headers to uniquely identify the column and row respectively" Each template handles headers differently. The collapsible template just seems to omit them. Template:football box uses column headers for the teams (good), the score (?), and penalties across three columns. An easy improvement there would be to make use of scope to address the complexity. The score should not be a header.
3. "Do not solely use formatting, either from CSS or hard-coded styles, to create semantic meaning (e.g., changing background color)." See my above comment on the round parameter.
4. "Avoid using tables for visual positioning of non-tabular content." This is an issue with Template:Football box collapsible (which packs the time and location information into table cells), but not Template:Football box (which only uses a table element for the center table). This is also why the collapsible template scrunches up on narrow mobile screens.
5. MOS:COLLAPSE is a stylistic concern. Scrolling causes accessibility issues for screen magnifiers, but collapsible content does not. I was able to access the full table on screen readers, with screen magnifiers, on printouts, with JavaScript off, and on Internet Explorer.
6. MOS:COLOR is mostly fine. Viewing the tables in grayscale and simulated deuteranopia, I don't see major issues. The background color information is also displayed in the score, so this is fine. Some of the little icons are harder to distinguish, but not impossible.

Question: Template:Football box has fewer and easier to resolve accessibility issues compared to Template:Football box collapsible. Why is there a preference for adding the collapsible version to the Manual of Style?

Feel free to ask questions about any of that, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 05:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by Stevie fae Scotland

My feeling has always been that the style guide should be an aspiration for all applicable articles to meet. That's why I advocate for the table because it meets MOS:ACCESS. It would be pointless having a style guide if it didn't live up to the standards that the community has set out with the MOS.

The proposal to add footballbox collapsible to the style guide is, I think, a good faith assumption based on usage. For list articles, the footballbox is WP:INDISCRIMINATE because it includes absolutely everything about a football match that is possible to include. The collapsible version allows a lot of this extra information to be hidden while still showing the key information (date, score, competition + opposition) so I think that condensed nature is why it has become prevalent in these articles. The issue with that though is that it goes against MOS:COLLAPSE (as well as the other above-mentioned ACCESS violations).

I think the footballbox has a place on Wikipedia, particularly for major tournaments where matches are more notable and individual matches which are deemed notable enough to have their own articles. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator on football season articles

I have a few questions for User:PicturePerfect666, and a few questions for all the editors. First, for all the editors, is the main issue whether to use the table or a template for match results? Will each editor please state what they want in that regard. Second, am I correct that there are multiple templates for match results? If so, do all of the templates have accessibility issues, or only some of them? Third, if there are accessibility issues with one or more templates, can they be fixed, and is there a plan to fix them in the near future?

User:PicturePerfect666 writes: Why is a guideline being used to attempt to trump a policy and overrule a consensus which has formed through use? What policy are you saying is being trumped by a guideline? What is the consensus that was formed through use? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I will have more questions after I read the answers.

Third statements by editors on football articles

Stevie fae Scotland

I don't mind using a template. I personally prefer the table format but I understand other editors will have different preferences. There are templates which can be used which don't have the ACCESS issues mentioned above eg- New Zealand men's national football team results (2020–present) uses a template to produce an ACCESS-compliant results list. The footballbox is a more complicated template so I don't know if the issues can be fixed, I'll leave that to Rjjiii or someone with better knowledge. As far as I am aware though, there aren't any plans to fix it. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 09:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Third comment by Rjjiii

Second question above:

• Template:Football box has some minor and fixable accessibility issues.
• Template:Football box collapsible has many minor accessibility issues that are not easily fixable.
• Those two templates each appear in over 20,000 articles each. I don't know if any other templates mentioned are widely used.

Third question above:

It looks like the same folks have worked on both templates. They have previously accepted accessibility improvements that do not affect the visual appearance of the template. The largest issue with Template:Football box could be resolved by using the scope attribute, which does not affect visual output. I don't know if they are aware of the remaining accessibility issues to work on them. I'm not sure that there is an easy fix for Template:Football box collapsible.

Regards, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by PicturePerfect666

I am not commenting on the access issues as that is not something I pay attention to. There are plenty of others who seem to look out for that so I shall not be giving my uninformed lay opinion on the subject as I have no idea on the subject and nor do I have much if any interest in the subject.

To answer the direct question at me. The consensus through use is the use of the template by multiple editors over multiple years on thousands of articles of the template. Where the wikiproject keeps having discussions which are simply not known about or are ignored. The mass use by a mass of editors is consensus by use, this is a clear use case of consensus as set out in WP:EDITCON.

Moving to the broader question:

I have no issue with compromising to a template of the style of Template:Football box as used at New Zealand men's national football team results (2020–present) but not until the issue surrounding the content of that template is addressed. It is illogical and does not contain enough information to be completely useful. These examples are previously set out above. Why is there no listing of the results home-away, why are only goals for one team listed? These and the other issues listed, particularly those at the previously listed discussion, must be overcome. Until the issues with the content are sorted then it cannot be used as it goes against commonsense and basic football reporting of results.

I personally prefer the logical and succinct layout of Template:Football box collapsible and so it would seem through use do the vast majority of editors on Wikipedia.

To be blunt the table is a hot mess of wiki-syntax which the casual and new user has no interest in wasting time trying to decipher. The table is also a hot mess of user preferences which do not reflect the common reporting of match results and provide little or no benefit whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.

The collapsible template is plug-and-play and contains all of the information you would expect to find in the reporting of match results. Both teams' scorers, own goals, major match events (yellow cards missed penalties etc.), and penalty shootout scorers. All that is logically and commonly reported and expected. All of this is included in the collapsible template, and none of this is in the table.

The collapsible template also allows for a quick result hit and if you want more information you can get that by expanding the box.

The non-collapsible template needs the content issues sorted.

PicturePerfect666 (talk) 15:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator on football season articles

Thank you, User:Rjjiii. What are the remaining issues, including accessibility issues, concerning the display of football results?

Are we in agreement that the table and the football box template and the football box collapsible template may be used, and is there also agreement that the accessibility issues with the templates should be fixed, although there is no deadline for fixing them? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors on football articles

Fourth statement by Rjjiii

The issues are somewhat different for both commonly used templates.

For Template:Football box, the most confusing and largest practical concern is that a screen reader can't tell which column the penalties are in. I have tested a solution and started a discussion.[3] Minor issues that break compliance with MOS:ACCESS include:

• No caption for the table.
• The round parameter is given meaning solely by formatting.
• And possibly: the heading for the results column is the match score. This does break with the Manual of Style, but seems clear to me when listening.

For Template:Football box collapsible, there are both more issues and harder issues to fix. If you look at a typical usage like 2003–04 Plymouth Argyle F.C. season#Football League Division Two, the template is being used to create each of those visual rows. On an HTML level, though, each row is a separate table. I'm not sure what the best solution would be, but I don't see a quick or easy fix. Problems include:

• The template does not use table headers to describe columns.
• The template uses the rightmost and leftmost column to position chunks of non-tabular content.
• The template creates individual rows as separate tables.
• No caption for the table.
• The round parameter is given meaning solely by formatting.
• And possibly: the heading for the results column is the match score. This does break with the Manual of Style, but seems clear to me when listening.

For Template:Football result list, there are no accessibility issues, and this template is only used on a few pages.

Regards, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by Stevie fae Scotland

I'm not arguing that we go and change however many thousand articles and remove Template:Football box collapsible overnight. Until the ACCESS issues are addressed though, it shouldn't be included in the style guide. We shouldn't be encouraging the use of something that doesn't comply with the MOS but I understand it won't change dramatically whatever the outcome here. As the moderator points out, there is no deadline (whether that's about fixing ACCESS concerns on an individual article and improving match result lists or fixing them directly through the template). The fact that we have started a discussion around fixing the access concerns with Template:Football box because of this discussion is fantastic. Hopefully, something similar can be done for Template:Football box collapsible but until that point, leave it out the style guide. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by PicturePerfect666

Common sense must prevail. The sensible thing is to fix the issues with access. There must also be an addressing of the sheer made up content inclusions/exclusions in the table and template football box. Previous discussions have pointed out the sheer bugnuttery of the selective inclusion of information and the bizarre layout of not home-away, no penalty shoot out scorers, no major match events etc. Until those are fixed there can be no moving from the template which includes the expected information. Inclusion in the MOS of the templates is essential as they are the only ones to comply with community consensus on content. The absurd and frankly ludicrous citations of things like WP:indiscriminate hold as much water as an imaginary cup.

Not including the template in the MOS is more head-in-sand burying by the small group who are active at the wikiproject and a failure to recognise they are not a rule making body, users outside the wikiproject exist and pay no attention to the wiki project. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 17:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator on football season articles

I don't think that we are getting any closer to agreement, but I am not sure what the disagreement is. What I think I have learned is that the different formats for presenting results include a table and at least three templates, {{Football box}}, {{Football box collapsible}}, and {{Football result list}}. It appears that the first two templates all have degrees of non-compliance with the accessibility guidelines, and the result list is fully compliant, but is seldom used. There are tens of thousands of page, mostly in article space, s which use the less-than-compliant templates. Going back and changing the articles is not a plausible answer. (We already have more than enough problems due to articles that are non-compliant, such as player stubs.) The templates should be fixed. It appears that an issue is whether to document the availability of the non-compliant templates. A compromise there would be to document the availability of the templates, but to note in the MOS that the templates are non-compliant and are tagged to be fixed. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The filing editor is using picturesque language to characterize the positions of the other editors, including "sheer bugnuttery .. and bizarre layout", and more head-in-sand burying by the small group who are active at the wikiproject. This sort of language is entertaining, but does not clarify the issues. I have already cautioned the filing editor for insulting other editors in edit summaries. I suppose that I could fail this dispute resolution, saying that the filing editor has not explained what the issues are. Will either the filing editor or someone else explain what the issues are? Otherwise, I will close the dispute by saying that the MOS should note that the templates are in widespread use but non-compliant. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Does someone have a proposal for how to close this dispute, other than by stating that the templates are in widespread use but non-compliant?

Fifth statements by editors on football articles

Fifth statement by Stevie fae Scotland

Just closing this dispute without resolution would, I fear, reignite the edit war that brought us here. Whilst the access issues persist, I'm not just not going to favour the inclusion of the collapsible version in the style guide - particularly when it should've been discussed first and every other discussion has found consensus against it.

That being said, I am willing to compromise. The style guide currently has "(also acceptable results format for all matches)" followed by a brief list of collapsible footballboxes. I'd propose that be changed to something like this:

===Other format===
{{tl|Football box collapsible}} is currently used across many articles but has significant MOS:ACCESS issues. Discussions to improve this are ongoing but unresolved as of [insert date here].

I've tried to keep the language in a manner that doesn't encourage or discourage usage but makes clear the issues highlighted in this thread (a link to which could also be useful). I'd be happy to hear other suggestions for wording but I feel something like this would be the way forward. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by PicturePerfect666

The dispute is about three things two of which have come to crystallisation during this discussion

1. The inclusion of the template in the Manual of Style;
2. The content of the football table - as previous discussions have said it is not fit for use and linked to;
3. The compliance with access guidelines, as explained by Rjjiii.

If such a qualification is to be used on the templates, then an additional qualification must be included for the table to state that the content of the table is not in alignment with the wider discussion that has also taken place.

I think that this should be revisited again in 3 months' time to give both the table and templates time to address the issues with both.

There must be a re-look mechanism, and there must be monitoring of the pages by administrators familiar with the issue particularly the MOS to prevent edit warring from breaking out, as one user seems to have a long history of engaging in edit warring, has received multiple timed bans for such, and is currently serving a one month ban for edit warring. Other users also have blocks for edit warring and similar, but not as extensive as one user.

There must also not be language which shows favour of the table over the template and vice-versa.

I hope this clarifies things for the moderator.

PicturePerfect666 (talk) 00:41, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator on football season articles

I still don't think that we are getting any closer to agreement, but I still am not sure what the disagreement is. I think that we are in agreement that:

• 1. Some of the templates that are in common use have accessibility issues to varying degrees.
• 2. The templates should be fixed, but we are in disagreement as to how high a priority that is.
• 3. There are tens of thousands of articles using templates with varying degrees of accessibility issues, so that changing the templates is much more feasible than changing the articles.

Do we agree as to points 1, 2, and 3? Is the disagreement about what the Club seasons guideline should say? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I think that we agree the {{football box}} is almost compliant, and the {{football box collapsible}} has more accessibility problems, but at the same time is simpler to view.

One editor has proposed a three-month plan with monitoring. I don't understand the plan, but I see that it would require community discussion and involvement. Do we want to resolve this dispute here at DRN, or do we want to throw this issue to the community for discussion?

Do we want to agree that the templates should be worked on? What if anything should be done with the club seasons guideline? Will each editor please explain concisely where they think that we should go from here? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors on football articles

Sixth statement by Stevie fae Scotland

I agree with the three points and yes, the disagreement was solely over the inclusion of footballbox collapsible in the Club seasons guideline. I agree the templates should be worked on to become ACCESS compliant. I think the Club seasons guideline should be restored to this version ie- as it was before the dispute and undiscussed addition of the non-compliant template but as I indicated above I would be willing to compromise here and would welcome further suggestions. I am happy for the dispute to be resolved here as I am hopeful a compromise could be reached but if you feel like we are just going round in circles I am equally happy for a discussion to be started with the aim of wider community participation to find a compromise. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:49, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Historical reliability of the Gospels

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by Tgeorgescu on 22:33, 24 September 2023 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Historical reliability of the Gospels (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs) Jenhawk777 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The rub is The scholarly consensus is that they are the work of unknown Christians and were composed c.68-110 AD. I have given multiple WP:RS/AC-compliant WP:RS written by authors on the both sides of the dispute. The other editor claims that Ehrman is too controversial and that the Holman bibles are unscholarly. Neither is she convinced by Witherington, who shares her POV, but actually agrees with my WP:RS/AC claim (in respect to the Gospel of Matthew). The list of WP:RS "on my side" is available at User:Tgeorgescu/sandbox3. Hint: this discussion does not concern the works of Smith and Valantasis c.s. Evidence of notification: [4]. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:46, 24 September 2023 (UTC) References How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels#Reference_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels#Arbitrary_break How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Give an opinion whether my WP:RS/AC claims are good or bad. Since it is a content guideline, and if the WP:RS are good enough for it, it should be applied. If sources are bad, that no longer holds. Summary of dispute by Jenhawk777 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. My complaint is with two things: the claim that there is "scholarly consensus" and the source for that claim. The source which makes the claim, is itself sourced to a self-published work, and neither has any data, or support, or even a cited discussion, of a scholarly consensus actually existing. It looks like a baseless claim in a heavily biased source. This is not about the veracity of the claim concerning authorship itself, which the talk page discussion kept veering off into. This is purely - imo - an issue with the claim there is such a thing as consensus concerning it. This is a big claim, and as such, it needs a better more reliable source, or imo, the claim should be removed. I am tired of asking that personal points of view not be discussed, since whether I personally agree or not is completely beside the point, and I have repeatedly stated that. I have an unwavering commitment to practicing neutrality. There's an essay on my user page on it. It's not about which individual scholars agree or don't or which "side" they are on. That doesn't prove consensus. For me, it is just about whether the claim of consensus is well sourced. If it isn't, then it should go until a better source for it can be found. That's it. That's all.Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC) Historical reliability of the Gospels discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Question by volunteer about historical reliability of the Gospels discussion Is the question primarily about the reliability of sources? If so (and it appears that it is), the parties might get a better answer at the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC) Now using verbatim quotes instead of summaries: she claims that Ehrman is self-identified as biased toward the anti-Christian view and that the Holman bibles are not a good example of scholarship of any kind. Neither is she convinced by Witherington and others. By WP:RS/AC claims I mean WP:RS stating "most scholars" (6 RS), "most modern scholars" (1 RS), "most critical scholars" (4 RS counting 3 Holman bibles), "historical critical scholars deny ... today, these persons are not thought to have been the actual authors" (1 RS), "historical-critical scholarship massively doubts that" (1 RS), and "majority [of modern scholars]" (1 RS). There are other implicit WP:RS/AC claims, e.g. The New Testament : a historical introduction to the early Christian writings by Ehrman (2004) and Lüdemann (2000). She claims that most WP:RS listed at User:Tgeorgescu/sandbox3 are not enough for those WP:RS/AC claims (there are four or five sources which I added later to that list, and were not discussed previously). So of course, I do not want to preserve the word consensus, "most scholars" or "most critical scholars" would do. There are sources from Cambridge, Harvard, and Oxford University Press. B&H Publishing Group, InterVarsity Press, Wipf & Stock, Westminster John Knox Press, Presbyterian Publishing Corporation, Pickwick Publications, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Abingdon Press, and Paulist Press are Christian publishers. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:56, 26 September 2023 (UTC) Robert McClenon For me, yes. Jenhawk777 (talk) 02:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC) Okay, then we will take it to WP:RSN. But I warn you that RSN is more merciless than DRN. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:06, 26 September 2023 (UTC) tgeorgescu Thank you for your concern. I don't require mercy. If they decide it's a good source, or if they don't, all that matters to me is that the standards of the encyclopedia are maintained. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kmart

– New discussion.

Filed by TheUSConservative on 08:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Kmart (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• TheUSConservative (talk · contribs)
• MrOllie (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There has been a dispute going on between a couple auto confirmed users who are reverting edits that in my opinion are valid and factual. The issue revolves around store count and proper sourcing regarding it. The few seem to be very picky on what they find acceptable and are the majority of reverts for this thing. Most other edits on the page try to fix the store count which hasn’t been updated since 2022 because these two editors revert anyone who tries even with evidence or logical reasoning. The two users seem to take it upon themselves to be the police of the Wikipedia page and I would like other peoples opinions on whether some of the edits that were reverted were reverted wrongly or rightly regarding store count, as well as an opinion on if an article stating “store will close on Sept 30th is a good enough source to conclude a store has closed when it passed the date. I could be wrong in my thinking but to have the same people undo so many edits of yours and others is getting to the point where I want other opinions. I just want feedback from a third party to make sure that if I am wrong why and what I need to look for further or if I’m correct.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Kmart#WP:Crystal, Talk:Kmart#August 7 2023 Kmart Update

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I just want some other opinions on this to make sure it’s not me who’s getting this wrong.

Summary of dispute by MrOllie

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Kmart discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.