Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 117
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Talk:Osgoode Hall Law School
There was no further participation after the crux of the issues were communicated and briefly discussed. Nothing more to be done here. Atsme📞📧 18:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Disagreement of over salvageable text that was deleted and hidden from history record as well as other reversions. Disagreement over application of 'try to fix it' guidelines. Adversarial rather than cooperative behavior based on a dislike of "single goal accounts", regardless of content value that may well be salvageable, as grounds for total deletion and hiding of history. The introduction to the page was also altered without any reason. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I posted inquiries with other members, posted on the talk page explaining my position, and asked for a 3rd party opinion. I also offered to continue dialoguing and tag or move the deleted material. How do you think we can help? I am not of the opinion that total deletion and hiding of the material was justified or that it was in accordance with the guidelines on 'trying to fix' or the spirit of wikipedia which I thought is to improve and contribute, preferably collaboratively, rather than delete. I would like the deleted material restored somewhere so that it can be built up to a proper standard of citations rather than unilaterally deleted and hidden. Summary of dispute by TRPoD aka The Red Pen of DoomPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The article is a long term target of SPAs and socks utilizing it as an advertising platform . I think the biggest issues here are that Paulydee hasnt yet figured out how page history works and that their first responses appear to be casting aspersions about other editor's motives- neither of which are appropriately addressed in this forum -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved AndyTheGrumpThis piqued my curiosity, so I decided to take a look. And I can see no evidence that anything has been "hidden from the history record" of the Osgoode Hall Law School article - substantial quantities of material have been removed in editing, but are still entirely accessible in the history. If material had been RevDel'd the history would provide a record of the fact, even if the material was no longer there. I have to suggest therefore that Paulydee is mistaken. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC) Comment by uninvolved YunshuiJust on the back of Andy's comment above, I can (using my magical admin goggles) confirm that there are no deleted versions of the page, no deleted revisions, and no suppressed revisions in the page history. Nothing is hidden; every edit that has ever been made to the page is readily available. I recommend Paulydee read Help:Page history, and probably that he withdraw this request. Yunshui 雲水 14:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by OrangemikeI suspect that Paulydee's limited experience here leads them to false conclusions, although the lack of an assumption of good faith on the part of other editors is definitely not helping. Nonetheless: we have clear expectations for this kind of list, and are just asking that they be met. There is no deadline for the addition of such a list. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC) Talk:Osgoode Hall Law School discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Thanks for the clarification about the history. I plan on working on the citations for the deleted list. However, I am still not understanding how the deletion is justified in the first place and why the Notable Alumni list justifiably remains deleted while I or others work on the citations. It seems to be contrary to the wikipedia guidelines as stated in several places. Contrary to what my friend OrangeMike suggested (am I misunderstanding notability?) the list was made up of clearly notable people. It was also easily verifiable with reliable sources. The wiki guidelines seem to state that removing the items is the wrong approach in such a situation. TRPOD initially stated that there are several options when there are no citations and that removal is one of them. They said it was justified in this case because of a history of 'single purpose accounts' using wikipedia to promote the subject of the page. But nothing that was deleted was actually inappropriate. Just because an item can serve to promote the subject of the page doesn't make it inappropriate or an advertisement. What seems to be appropriate under the wikipedia guidelines is to tag the items and, especially if they are easily verifiable, to begin to add the citations where they are missing. This was never undertaken by TRPOD yet the deletion is claimed to be appropriate. I also recently posted the list on a separate page and specifically stated in its talk section that I was going to start building the citations. Yet the list has again been removed from that page, which now redirects to the altered OH page. As far as I can tell that is not supported by the wikipedia guidelines. I will also post more thoroughly in the OH talk section. Thanks for your input. Cheers. Paulydee (talk) 01:25, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
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Anders Feder subpage
Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If other editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which I make here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview The dispute is over the content of this user subpage and whether parts of it should be removed per WP:POLEMIC. Have you tried to resolve this previously? This is the first step after the talk page discussion. How do you think we can help? Judge whether it really contains polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities. Summary of dispute by Anders FederPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Anders Feder subpagePlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
− * This is almost certainly not the right venue for a complaint such as this. − * You are equally almost as certainly reading far more into it than it deserves. − Can someone please (non-admin closure) this ASAP. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
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Talk:Greece-Italy relations
Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, DRN requires extensive recent talk page discussion before seeking assistance. There's only been two edits by the listing editor in this discussion and only one recent edit by the other. If other editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which I make here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview It's about the statement "una faccia una razza", which is usually used by the Greeks to express their similarities with the Italians. I would say it's pretty good information for that page. I see in the talk that in the past years there has been discussion about whether it should be on the page or not. Someone has some valid points, but nothing that justifies the complete removal of the text, in my opinion. That someone keeps removing the text; his latest reason: "it's unencyclopedic". Now, if someone can explain me why it's unencyclopedic, I'll be happy to take it. Until that time I, and several people, disagree. Thank you. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I'm honestly afraid there is not much to do. I just started looking at the issue, but I see it has been going on since 2013 How do you think we can help? I would need someone who's an authority to clearly explain if that paragraph is unencyclopedic. If it is, it would be really nice to know why. If it isn't, as I believe, that authority should do something about it. Summary of dispute by EnokPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Greece-Italy relationsPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moot. Filing editor has been topic banned from editing about Abdul-Jabbar for one year. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview in the latest entry, there is dispute about whether or not the subject's comments in Time were made in jest. I asked the arguers for backup, they refuse to provide sufficient ones and just resort to name calling. Please resolve. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Replied on my talk page. How do you think we can help? Resolve this. Summary of dispute by MarnetteDSeems A21sauce has chosen to go down the rabbit hole here. If there is a speedy close for these this one merits it. Since Newyorkbrad has topic banned A21sauce from editing Abdul-Jabbar's article there isn't anything else to say. MarnetteD|Talk 00:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by One|5969Seriously? This is an absurd edit sequence. There are multiple sources on the article page which this editor is ignoring. He has failed to understand written sarcasm in an article in time, and now is wasting the time of folks who could actually be contributing positively to Wikipedia while dealing with this nonsense. I would suggest he be banned from editing on Wikipedia for a period of time in order to point out the need not to waste editors' time with this type of nonsense. The nominating editor changed the well-documented height of Kareem Abdul-Jabaar, citing an article from Time in which Jabaar sarcastically refers to himself at a much lower height in order to make an absurd point. Sorry, this is completely absurd and a waste of time. Onel5969 (talk) 00:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Talk:Kareem Abdul-Jabbar discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:List of_converts_to_Islam_from_Hinduism
Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If other editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which I make here (though I fear that in light of what's already happened here that it may have little chance of success). — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Delibzr removed a large amount of content on the article List of converts to Islam from Hinduism. I tried to reason with him, however he did not provide adequate reasoning as to why he believes the current list constitutes a BLP violation. I tried to work things out by removing content that was stated by him (Delibzr) as well as user:EdJohnston. This however got me blocked, the discussions pertaining to this block are here: It has been over a month and Delibrz continues to fail to provide adequate reasoning as to why this list [3] violates any wikipedia policy. I am open to removing any materials that violate wikipedia's policy from this list, however I would at least like adequate reasons. I have tried engaging in dialogue with Delibrz, however he does not respond in any meaningful way. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I tried to discuss with both Delibrz and EdJohnston that the list is valid and that I have removed contested materials from it. Delibrz stated he had issues with Dharmendra and A.R. Rahman [4] and EdJohnston stated he had issues with King Chakrawati Firmas on the list [5]. I removed all three personalities from the list. I however got blocked as a result. I would like for them (especially Delibrz) to provide more insight into why they may think the current list is not right. How do you think we can help? Try and bring about dialogue into what may or may not be wrong with the list. Summary of dispute by DelibrzPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by EdJohnstonPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I'm not one of the content participants in this discussion. My role is as an admin. See WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive172#Xtremedood. Provided the editors working on this page follow Wikipedia policy, including WP:V and WP:RS, then I have nothing more to say. If you read the AE complaint you'll see a summary of the past issues with the article which caused admins to take notice. Delibzr and Xtremedood were both warned at WP:AN3 after a confusing dispute. The warning said not to revert again before getting consensus. When the AE closed, it gave a 48-hour block to Xtremedood for continuing to revert at List of converts to Islam from Hinduism in spite of the warning. If Xtremedood wants to propose that some people ought to be added to the list of converts that were removed by Delibzr he ought to request that on the talk page. The talk page has been inactive since May 27, and Xtremedood may have missed the opportunity to create a proper discussion. The list of converts itself appears reasonably well-sourced at the moment, so some progress must have been made. EdJohnston (talk) 13:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Talk:List of_converts_to_Islam_from_Hinduism discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Wanderer of the Wasteland (1945 film)#Incorrect terminology needs correction.
The editors could not agree on the description of the technology for the earlier version but will on an RFC. Closing. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:13, 20 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I made a relatively small terminology-related change to the article. Onel5969 promptly reverted me. I contacted Onel5969 on his user talk page and explained my reasons but he did not agree. The discussion continued on the article's talk page; it went on and on and on with absolutely no progress made. Onel5969 has not even acknowledged the reasons and references I provided to back up my claim, let alone indicated why he believes they are invalid. Note I am *NOT* reporting this as a personal criticism of Onel5969, but solely because I believe that that is the primary reason the discussion went nowhere. Have you tried to resolve this previously? So far I have not tried any other steps to resolve this dispute. How do you think we can help? I think it would be very helpful if you could convince Onel5969 to resume the discussion, and urge him to carefully examine my reasons (mainly my links to the UCLA Film Archive and to AFI) and explain exactly why he feels they fail to support my point; so far he has not done this. I think it would also be helpful to bring in other editors, *especially* editors familiar with the subject (early Technicolor processes), especially its terminology. Summary of dispute by Onel5969DESiegel's summary is pretty accurate. Will only add a few pertinent facts, first, not sure this should be in dispute resolution. Several editors have commented on the talk page, as well as on their own talk pages where Richard27182 had contacted them directly to get them involved in the discussion. In each instance, the editor made their view clear, and it did not side with Richard27182. While consensus is not a vote, the reasons stated in each of those responses seems to indicate consensus. According to a google search, two-strip Technicolor is the preferred term, by an almost 2-1 margin (14,800 to 7,870). In addition, the citation used in the article uses the term two-strip Technicolor. I offered a compromise which Richard27182 completely ignored. DESiegel also offered a compromise, but Richard27182 decided to go forward with this DR. I don't really have the time, nor the inclination to deal with combative editors, which is why I simply began to ignore him, which is, according to wiki guidelines, the preferred way to deal with editors such as these. I also see that Richard hasn't contacted everyone he's brought into the discussion, only those on the talk page. Not sure he needs to, pretty sure he won't want to.Onel5969 (talk) 13:23, 12 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by DESiegelRichard27182 wanted to use the term "two-color Technicolor" rather than "two-strip Technicolor", stating that it was more accurate. Onel5969 said that the latter term was the common term at the time, and was still in common use by film historians. I suggested a wiki-link to the Wikipedia page where the process is discussed and both terms are used; I later suggested using both terms in the article along with such a link. Richard provided many links that he felt supported his view. Onel cited (but mostly did not link to) several sources which he said indicated that "two-strip" was the common name. The article talk page is fairly clear. At least this hasn't become an edit war, and has stayed comparitivly civil. DES (talk) 11:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by OakshadePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Wanderer of the Wasteland (1945 film)#Incorrect terminology needs correction. discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderatorI am accepting this case for moderated discussion. It appears that the focus of the dispute is terminology, in particular with regard to an old Technicolor process that is sometimes known as two-strip Technicolor and sometimes known as two-color Technicolor. I don’t plan to offer my opinions much, but it seems that if there are two names by which the process is known historically, they should both be used, even if one is technically incorrect. Do the editors agree that if a process is known by different names, they should both be mentioned, with appropriate clarifying language? Will each editor please explain their opinions about how Technicolor processes should be referred? If one form is incorrect, how is it incorrect (and should it be used anyway as a common incorrect name, with a clarification)? The scope of this case is currently one film made in 1945 which refers to a predecessor film made in the 1920s. Will the scope of this issue extend to other movies or articles? Does this issue also apply to the article on Technicolor? Are there any other issues about this article that require dispute resolution? Please be civil and concise. Please comment on content, not on contributors. Please comment in your own sections only. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:47, 12 June 2015 (UTC) First statement by Richard27182 Hello Robert McClenon. There is at least one thing Onel5969 and I agree on. I too hope that this will not drag out. First statement by Onel5969Hi Robert McClenon - thanks for taking this on. Hopefully it won't drag out. Regarding your first paragraph, I suggested the following compromise, "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor, which was an early Technicolor two-color process, and which was produced by Famous Players-Lasky in 1924 ..." which includes the terminology for both. DESiegel suggested "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor or two-color Technicolor ...", which also mentions both processes. Either would be fine with me. Neither term is incorrect, since one is the name of the process (two-strip), while the other is a description of the process (two-color). The name is a misnomer, since it does not involve two-strips, but was the common name used for decades (which probably accounts for the double amount of usages on a google search). Regarding your second paragraph. It should. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There are dozens of films which involve the two-strip/two-color process, and the decision reached here should be uniformly used. And it definitely should be edited into the Technicolor article. Regarding your third question/paragraph. Not that I'm aware of. Not even sure why this one is here. A consensus had been reached, and two compromises offered. Onel5969 (talk) 00:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC) First statement by DESiegelI had already sugested that both terms be used in the article. so I am fine with that. I thoguht that a link to the relevant section of Technicolor, where the process and the terms for it are already explained, would be sufficient -- this is not an issue that ewill be a msjor focus for most readers of the article, I would think. But clarifing language in the article eould do no harm, and might improve things. I don't know this field well enough to say if other articles will be involved in this dispute. I would suggest reaching out to the film wiki prokject. Technicolor#Process 2 appears to describe the process and the terminology already, and I hope will not need changes because of thsi issue. DES (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC) First statement by OakshadeSecond statement by moderatorWhy doesn't each editor propose, in your section, draft language for how to describe the 1922 film? Then other editors can comment on whether they consider the revised language acceptable. We can look at the article on Technicolor later. For now let's propose drafts for how to refer to the process or format of the 1922 film. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:47, 14 June 2015 (UTC) "The first adaptation was a silent color film done in an early two-color Technicolor process, (often known as "two-strip Technicolor") produced by Famous Players-Lasky in 1924, directed by ..." was proposed on the talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:13, 15 June 2015 (UTC) Second statement by Richard27182Hello @Robert McClenon: and everybody else involved. Second statement by Onel5969Second statement by DESiegelSecond statement by OakshadeThird statement by moderatorBecause of the length of the discussion on the talk page, I would prefer to see proposed language here rather than having to search for it. Is the wording that I copied above satisfactory to all of the participants? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2015 (UTC) Also, copying from one Wikipedia page to another is permitted, as is linking from an article talk page to here. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Third statement by Richard27182Hello @Robert McClenon: @DESiegel: and others.
(I checked the link destination and it seems to go to the top of the Technicolor article rather than directly to the section on early processes; however this is just a very minor technical issue, very easily correctable, and would not be involved in the dispute itself.) And as I previously indicated, I would be completely satisfied with either of them, or something equivalent to either of them. (And in his message on the article's talk page, DESiegel indicates that each of them would be acceptable to him.) So I guess you could say that DESiegel and I have already reached our own personal mini-concensus.
Third statement by Onel5969While consensus has already been reached on the talk page and on the talk pages of editors which the nominator of this DR canvassed, I'm not adverse to adding language such as: "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor or two-color Technicolor ..." (proposed by DESiegel a week ago), or "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor, which was an early Technicolor two-color process, and which was produced by Famous Players-Lasky in 1924 ..." (which was proposed by me over a week ago). The main problem is the nominator continues to confuse the name of the process, with the description of the process. We don't make parenthetical statements every time we mention a peanut that it is not a nut, or that a Koala bear is not actually a bear. The above compromises give the correct name of the process, as per the cited source, as well as giving the reader the information that this was a two-color process. Onel5969 (talk) 13:31, 17 June 2015 (UTC) Third statement by DESiegelThird statement by OakshadeFourth statement by moderatorOne editor asks about bringing other editors into this discussion. If the only issue is the terminology for the process for the previous movie, I don't see why we need additional editors. Is there another issue also? If so, please state what it is, and we can decide whether it should also be discussed here or whether it can be discussed somewhere else. Is everyone agreeable to one of: "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor or two-color Technicolor ..." (proposed by DESiegel a week ago), or "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor, which was an early Technicolor two-color process, and which was produced by Famous Players-Lasky in 1924 ..."? By the way, again, please comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Fourth statement by Richard27182 First I would like to respond to the charge of canvassing. This is an issue that came up and was discussed before this dispute resolution even began. It was discussed between DESiegel and Onel5969 and me, and it was agreed that at worst it was an innocent mistake by a novice and no harm was intended or done. I would very much appreciate if other editor(s) would cease raising that old issue every time they post something.
I maintain that if the process in question has a "correct name," if anything it would be "Technicolor Process #2." And that "two-strip Technicolor" is a commonly used (and misleading) misnomer and not the official name for the process. (Regardless of whatever term may have been used in the single particular reference Onel5969 is citing.) This is why I asked about the possibility of bringing in editors who would have some expertise in Technicolor, especially its development and terminology. My preference would be to refer to it simply as "an early Technicolor process" with a link to the appropriate section of the Wikipedia Technicolor article. But if Onel5969 insists on referencing the process's name in the article we're discussing, what's wrong with using its official name: "Technicolor Process #2"? Fourth statement by Onel5969I see no need to further drag this out than it already has been. Either one of those is fine with me. Onel5969 (talk) 03:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Fourth statement by DESiegelFourth statement by OakshadeFifth statement by moderatorSome of the versions of description that are being proposed are: A: "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor or two-color Technicolor ..." (proposed by DESiegel a week ago) B. "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor, which was an early Technicolor two-color process, and which was produced by Famous Players-Lasky in 1924 ..."? C. “Technicolor Process #2.” D. “An early Technicolor process.” If any editor thinks that other editors should be brought into the discussion, I would suggest that the way to do that would be a Request for Comments, which would be one way to close this thread. If there are any draft versions of the description of the first version that are acceptable to the participants, we can close this thread as resolved. Otherwise, we can do a General Close of this thread by submitting an RFC, which can be publicized in various ways to bring in more editors, in which case we first need to identify what the choices are. Please comment only on what the options are for the description of the earlier movie, not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Fifth statement by Richard27182Hello @Robert McClenon: Fifth statement by Onel5969As I said, I see no need to further drag this out. My prior comments stand. Those are the two versions which would be appropriate. That was a compromise AFTER consensus was reached. This follows the guidelines of WP:CITE, and uses the term which is much more frequently used (by a 2 to 1 margin). This will be my final statement. Onel5969 (talk) 12:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC) I see no need for an RFC. The difference between 1 & 2 above are that they are compromises, containing both the misnomer and an accurate description. Versions 3 & 4 above are not compromises, they are simply the viewpoint of the other editor. At no point in this discussion have my choices been one-sided. I have never offered the choice of having the article remain as it is, or simply referring to the process by the name cited in the source. The other editor is correct, when only one side is willing to compromise, than it is difficult to reach a resolution. The only two choices above which offer compromise are 1 or 2. Onel5969 (talk) 14:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Fifth statement by DESiegelFifth statement by OakshadeSixth statement by moderatorSince Richard27182 and Onel5959 are do not agree on how to refer to the previous movie, I will be closing this case as a general close shortly. An RFC will be developed on the talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 09:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC) I will note that there doesn't need to be agreement to the RFC for there to be an RFC. An RFC is, in most cases, binding. We can choose between a compromise and a non-compromise. If Onel5969 is willing to assist in closing out this case, they can identify one of the two compromises to include in the RFC, since 1 and 2 are equivalent. Richard27182 can then identify one of the two non-compromises. Then I will compose the RFC and close the thread. If the remaining editors don't provide their options, I will provide mine, but would prefer to prepare the RFC collaboratively. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:22, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Sixth statement by Richard27182Sixth statement by Onel5969I'm fine with that, option #2 is a bit more specific, so I prefer that: "The first adaptation was a silent film done using a process commonly known as two-strip Technicolor, which was an early Technicolor two-color process, and which was produced by Famous Players-Lasky in 1924 ..." Onel5969 (talk) 17:09, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
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List of_Murder,_She_Wrote_episodes
A Request for Comments will be used to determine whether to include the identification of the murderer in the summary of each episode. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:38, 21 June 2015 (UTC) |
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} Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This is the second attempt, which was suggested after more talk page dissensions: We currently have a dispute over the content of the page, Two editors believe the page does not need to change. I believe some of the information mainly who the Murderer is, thus bring this page in conflict with wiki policy WP:TOOMUCH. I pointed out most of pages on wiki do not have this information, one response to that was lack of editors. I also pointed out nearly ALL the information has no refs or has point of ref so how do I know if the information postage is even correct? No one has replyed to that issues. IM not clean chicken but its not been helped this issues has hit rock bottom with some of the throwing back and forward. What made that worse was another editor throw there two cent worth of discontent against me so, it got even more sour. which it really shouldn;t have. Have you tried to resolve this previously? talk page, which as gone down like lead pipe, asking for Third party etc How do you think we can help? A good number of views, but I believe this process may be pointless and I may have to this the admin broad to get a proper ruling. Summary of dispute by SkyerisePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Rms125a@hotmail.comPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
List of_Murder,_She_Wrote_episodes discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Comment: StewieBaby05 (talk · contribs) should be invited, as they added the content when creating the table on December 10, 2014. Skyerise (talk) 01:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC) First statement by volunteer moderatorI am opening this case for moderated discussion. I can see that one issue is whether to include the name of the murderer in each of the episodes. Is there any other issue? Can each of the participants please state, concisely, why they think that this information should or should not be included. Please comment on content, not on contributors. Please be civil. The objective should be to agree on how the article should be. To answer a question, no one is required to discuss the issue here, but we would like to proceed with as many editors as are willing to participate. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
First statement by CrazyseikoThe problem is kinda a bit more straight forward yet not so. The page in question I believe has to main issues. First: WP:TOOMUCH and second the lack of any references etc. Nearly all the information on that page has to be taken at face value, and murderer is the worse aspect of the above two points. I've been here for many a year and I;ve been repeated told off you need a ref even if the information is so what True. --Crazyseiko (talk) 11:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Comment: What is the point of this if NO ONE wants to talk about the problems, I guess will have to take this to an admin broad to get a proper ruling then from early next week.--Crazyseiko (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC) First statement by SkyeriseFirst statement by Rms125a@hotmail.comFirst statement by StewieBaby05
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Talk:Pam Reynolds_case#Balancing_Woerlee
Filing editor is indefinitely blocked for editwarring and socking and edit warring. No judgement on the merits of the case. Hasteur (talk) 11:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Filed by SansBias on 21:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I am adding credible scientific analysis of the Pam Reynolds case. Only the view of an anesthetist Woerlee is allowed by others. They will not allow a balanced analysis by credible scientists. My addition keeps on getting deleted. Sansbias. Have you tried to resolve this previously? my comments are ignored. I pointed out they had a npov and they continue anyway. How do you think we can help? Please freeze the page with my additions. Summary of dispute by and otheresPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Pam Reynolds_case#Balancing_Woerlee discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Finally (CeCe Peniston song)#Infobox image
Both disputants agreed to conduct a RFC and establish a consensus Hasteur (talk) 17:35, 24 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Filed by George Ho on 22:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The infobox image of the single has been disputed. The article's topic is a song made in America, sung by an American R&B singer. One user favors using the cover art of the non-US (id est French) CD edition, which contains a headshot. On the other hand, I want to use an American edition to fully represent the singer's nationality and the song's success in the U.S. (and elsewhere). However, the American cover art displays a sunflower with a white background, which is bothersome for other editor. I want to take this to WP:non-free content review, but usually administrators would find using more than one non-free cover art excessive. If using two cover arts is too much, then we should use one image instead. This led both of us into changing infobox back and forth as shown in history logs. I discussed this with MiewEN in the article talk page, but we haven't reached an agreement yet. The other user deemed my arguments as "rasistic" because I prefer using a cover art that represents a singer's and a song's nationality. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I requested the third opinion. The volunteer who took the request suggested using both images, but WP:NFCC and administrators won't approve using two images representing the original artist's rendition of the song. I replied and pinged that volunteer, but I've not seen a quick response. How do you think we can help? Rather than do RFC for consensus, I shall request resolution here instead. I need someone who is an expert of non-free images and copyright policies, like Masem or someone else from WP:NFCR. Also, I don't mind many volunteers being one-sided, neutral, or multiple-sided as long as they are experts of music and/or copyright and experienced. Summary of dispute by MiewENAll I had to say, I did on the relevant talk page, so hope I have inspired those who think off the box too. They are not usually in charge though, so my carnal expectations are limited by the others around. Meaning, I did my best, so I don't mind wishing well either to my oponents. MiewEN (talk) 19:59, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Talk:Finally (CeCe Peniston song)#Infobox image discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Supercarrier
Withdran based on agreement of the 3 participatnts able to respond. Hasteur (talk) 17:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Filed by Jaaron95 on 09:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Summary of dispute by Nick ThornePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
It is not up to editors to define anything. We follow the sources. So far as Supercarriers are concerned, we can only call a particular ship a supercarrier if the sources do, regardless of what we think is the definition of one. We seem to have two editors here, including the OP who do not seem to understand this basic principleand who want to make edits that ate in fact either OR or synthesis. The latest edits were made by the OP and I reverted them. I made a post on the talk page explaining my reversion but the OP has not responded. The discussion linked to above was several days old when the edits occurred that seem to have prompted this report. The OP had not discussed this matter on the talk page since those edits. Consequently, I believe that this case should not be accepted. - Nick Thorne talk 12:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Antiochus the GreatPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by M.srihari
If Nick thorne's arguments seems to be correct, then this is a "Decommissioned supercarrier"(really?). And the following URL states something about a "heavy aircraft carrier" which is about 90,000 tons. http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/05/russia-trying-to-sell-100000-ton-heavy.html. Since it is not referred as supercarrier in the Russian media, Should we exclude it? (As we should follow the 'source') That is why I think it is necessary to have a proper definition of what is a supercarrier because this term is often misleading as this is mostly used by media (source) and most of them believe in their own view or information in encyclopedia (like wikipedia).M.srihari (talk) 18:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)Srihari References
Supercarrier discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer's note: I am neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but only noting the following administrative matters: discussion (if a few days old) and notice appear to be adequate and the RFC pending at the article page does not, indeed, appear to include this issue. We're waiting for summaries from the other participants before proceeding further. If the issues raised by Nick Thorne are correct, and I'm not suggesting by that reference that they are or are not, they will be considered in the proceedings here. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
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Talk:Rohingya people
No comment on this case as one of the disputants is blocked for sockpuppetry. Hasteur (talk) 13:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Filed by 58.106.232.239 on 02:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview In a nutshell, the following edits i have added to the article Rohingya people, as shown here, have been removed by an IP address (203.81.69.86 ). Their main gripe seems to be that The Economist is not a reliable source, so the edits are not legal and hence the IP removes my additions. However, the IP strangely keeps at least one of my edits that uses The Economist source (i.e. my edit that says: The word Rohingya means “inhabitant of Rohang”, which was the early Muslim name for Arakan). This leads me to believe that the IP simply removes (or approves) content based upon what suits their own personal views, rather than based upon any legitimate concerns regarding the reliability of references. In the talk page section you will also note that i already have one editor, User:QuiteUnusual, who supports the reliability of The Economist. Therefore, i think with this support plus your (i.e. dispute resolution officer) own advice this dispute can be quickly concluded and either a restoration or exclusion of my edits can be finalised. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried to resolve this dispute using exhaustive reasoning with the IP on the articles relevant talk page section. How do you think we can help? I believe that if it is shown that The Economist is reliable then the IP will have zero excuses to remove the content that is sourced from it. Summary of dispute by 203.81.69.86Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Rohingya peoplePlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
This DRN fails to include all of the participants over the last few days ... who, incidentally, edit-warred the page to a total temporary protection. I am not a participant in the discussions, but I reported users for edit warring and sent the page for RPP. Look at this edit history train wreck.
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Talk:Zulu (musician)
Methods for questioning the fitness of this article have been provided. Hasteur (talk) 13:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Filed by 71.96.93.217 on 19:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I removed unsourced information from this article and added notices questioning notability and neutrality. The person the article is about has personally been reverting my removal of sourced information and removing the notability/neutrality notices. I have attempted to revert three times, which falls under exemption #7 of the three-revert rule, but have decided to stop since the other user seems to have no intention of stopping. The other user has responded in the Talk page but has made no efforts to justify the unsourced information nor has he added an actual sources for information in his article. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I explained to Mczulu my position against him using Wikipedia as a platform for self promotion. He has not provided any evidence that his article falls under the guidelines for notability. How do you think we can help? I would appreciate advice on further steps to take or if any should be taken. I am unclear whether the other user should be blocked from editing, if the page should be protected from editing, whether the removal of unsourced information should remain, or whether the article and the notability of its subject are fine. Summary of dispute by Mczulu
Please make suggestions as to what you would like to see on the page. I believe "Notability" requirements are satisfied from the first citation, with a segment on National Public Radio (and there are several more). If this is not the case please let me know, and I can provide the info. If, however you all are determined to delete the page.... I suppose that is your right. Mczulu (talk) 20:52, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Talk:Zulu (musician) discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Specialist note: Being that the IP address was confused as to where to go to have the notability of this page in which the subject of the BLP is heavily contributing (which is a gargantuian no-no), I'm going to close this request in 48 hours as "Follow the Articles for Deletion Process." pending a significant and reasoned objection by the disputants. Hasteur (talk) 18:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC) I thank you all for your time. and I'll tell you (all) again... I posted the picture a few days ago, and nothing more. It is a serious misrepresentation for anyone to say that I "heavily contributed" to that meandering article...lol Maybe switch out the picture and the question of my contributions will be a thing of the past, unless of course you are all convinced of my "non-notability"... then follow your heart. It's been an enjoyable first week here on WIKI, and a great learning experience. Maybe I will stay on as a constructive editor :) I will not, however attack strangers or presume to speak for the entire organization under an anonymous IP address, Blessings to all Mczulu (talk) 19:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
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Talk:Philip Benedict#"teaching" section
Pending in other forum: DRN does not handle cases which are pending in other dispute resolution forums or processes and an RFC has been filed in this case. Feel free to refile here or use other dispute resolution if RFC is inconclusive. Please remember that most RFC's remain open for at least 30 days. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview There's a dispute on whether the article on Philip Benedict should contain a section on his teaching when nobody but his own students has ever written on that topic. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Extensive discussion on the talk page. How do you think we can help? Explain the importance of policies such as WP:SYN and WP:BLPPRIMARY, and why Benedict's own students are not independent sources on his teaching. Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoomPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Huon essentially laid out the problems with this particular section with [6]. The wider issue of the SPA/IP's overly promotional editing of the entire article is also of concern to me. (Benedict "illuminated" the meaning of a text etc.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
response by 212.189.167.134 to TRPoD
Summary of dispute by 5.87.161.220Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
No one is alleging that Benedict is a good or bad teacher. But the simple fact that he taught these people has been reported in prize-winning secondary source History books that have been vetted by Harvard University Press, Toronto Press, at least four independent book prize committees, and a combined total of reviews by at least 50 professional historians. No one disputes that he taught these scholars. There were some language issues by a different editor, but those have been corrected. There is no reason not to include this uncontroversial information. History books that discuss other scholars are secondary sources. And even if they weren't WP allows for the inclusion of primary sources. 94.161.20.219 (talk) 05:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by 128.90.90.125Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Philip Benedict#"teaching" section discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The facts that the books won awards and Philip supervised when he won awards makes them relevant. This is not synthesis. These two editors have been trying to destroy this teaching section of the article for some time. This is just their latest pretense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RefHistory (talk • contribs) 15:51, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
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Talk:Shang dynasty#Language
The original issue of Language appears to have been resolved. A formal Request for Mediation has been filed because the scope appears to be expanding. Either the article will be accepted for mediation, or further discussion can go back to the talk page. |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview We are discussing the "due weight" that should be assigned to the similarities between Austro-Asiatic languages and Old Chinese in the proposed "Shang Language" section on the Shang Dynasty article and the "Old Chinese" article. They accuse me of being a "troll". I accused them of bias. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried to compromise. 2 previous editors I previously disagreed with later agreed to a 'brief mention' which I am fine with. How do you think we can help? I think both sides should post the material directly from the source without their personal interpretation/opinion and let the neutral party determine the due weight. Summary of dispute by NishidaniIn linguistics, you have internal analysis to reconstruct a language's history, and comparative analysis, to figure out that language's phylogeny. The former is basically focused on the idea of a self-contained structure, and separates Sinitic from the Tibeto-Burman family; the latter focuses on the relation between languages, and is more open to the idea that Old Chinese has its roots in proto-Tibeto-Burman. That the Shang language is considered the oldest form of Chinese has enjoyed a rough consensus, esp. among Chinese-language specialists. Scott DeLancey, who specializes in Tibetan, Himalayan, and North American languages, has argued the earliest language of a Chinese dynasty (Shang) might have differed, and the succeeding Zhou dynasty language represents an overlay of a 'Sino-Tibetan' language on a people speaking a southeast Asian language. Easy's problem is that he only has one clear source for this, and is unfamiliar with linguistics. Those who object are familiar with Chinese and some of the linguistic evidence, but regard Scott DeLancey as an outsider, or theories that contextualize Chinese in a broader multi-lingual/multi ethnic historical context with suspicion. Personally, I think the major advances in the field over the last three decades are complex, nuanced and polyphonic, and not reducible to a facile or complacent 'consensus of scholarship'. The proper way out is simply to register the details of these controversies, per WP:Due, rather than stuff evidence in, or summarily exclude it. The compromise:
is basically question-begging (Sinitic can mean 'ancestral' or '2nd century BCE: Chinese, etc. =a form of old Sinitic" is what is meant) and devoid of cogency.Nishidani (talk) 13:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by RajmaanSome members of several internet forums have an agenda to push with their own original research on the alleged ethnic origins of Chinese civilization. These just happen to match up with what has been proposed to be added to the article. And this is supposed by about linguistics only. So why is it being used to insinuate members of an ethnic group were or a certain origin? FYI I did not accuse Easy772 of being a troll. The actual troll is a guy who was arguing against Easy772 on these forums, named Toohoo aka Wingerman aka literaryClarity aka MohistManiac. I just don't want either Easy772 or Toohoo bringing their argument to Wikipedia. And yes these are relevant, in the case users are trying to turn wikipedia into a WP:BATTLEGROUND for their flame wars on the forums. Please keep this flame war on those forums and not here. See these forums to see what I am talking about. http://www.eastbound88.com/entry.php/259-Sino-Tibetan-origin http://www.eastbound88.com/archive/index.php/t-24360.html https://web.archive.org/web/20150326205946/http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/36792-liangzhu/ Rajmaan (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by KanguoleMost of the discussion on the talk page is about including a theory (from the second citation below) that the Shang dynasty spoke and wrote a non-Sino-Tibetan language. This appears to have been recently dropped in favour of what has been presented as a compromise: a vague phrasing about similarities with other language groups, with selected supporting quotations to be added to the lead of the Old Chinese article. When I objected to that on grounds of weight and encyclopedic style, User:Easy772 referred the case here. I believe that he/she is seeking an adjudication, which this noticeboard will not provide. Kanguole 18:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Ogress(Apologies for my delay in speaking, I have been ill.) The talk page discussion comprises a strongly-pushed argument by the user who filed this DRN (and, afaik, absolutely no one else) that the Shang dynasty did not speak a Sino-Tibetan language but rather an Austroasiatic language. They provide some citations they claim are in support of their argument, most of which have been challenged as to their actual content (i.e. that they do not say what he claims they do), and I strongly feel this remains a fringe theory at this time. I argue undue weight, lack of comprehension of and misapplication of cites, and a lack of coherent scholarly argument, particularly in regards to Delancey, whose work is the backbone of Easy's argument. Delancey's argument is about the internal structure of the language family that Old Chinese belongs to, not that the Shang were AA-speakers. There is no minority scholarly consensus to add. Ogress smash! 21:51, 17 June 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by ZanheI was involved in the discussion, but not initially notified of the dispute. Thanks to Ogress for notifying me. I'm a history enthusiast but not a linguist, and don't know whether Delancey's view represents a small minority or a fringe. But I've read many general-purpose academic publications, none of which mention Delancey's view or anything similar. The Cambridge History of Ancient China, for example, says "it is clear that the language in which they [the oracle bone inscriptions] are written is directly ancestral to what we know as 'Chinese' in both a classical and a modern context." (see here). Easy772 has been persistently advocating the inclusion of Delancey's view, but from the discussion on Talk:Shang dynasty, I believe most people are against it. -Zanhe (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Talk:Shang dynasty#Language discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by volunteer moderatorI will opening this case for moderated discussion. I know little about the Shang dynasty period in Chinese history. I expect that the editors will provide me with any historical or other background that I need in order to understand what the issues are and how to resolve them. My job is not to decide any issues, but to assist the editors in communicating as to how to resolve the issues. In the past I have opened one section for each editor. Due to the number of editors, I will not be doing that, but creating one section for comments by editors in each round of discussion. However, I will ask the editors to present their own statements only, and to refrain from threaded discussion. Please comment on content only, not on contributors; the purpose of this dispute resolution is to improve the article. Please be civil and concise. I intend to check on the progress of discussion at least once every 24 hours. I expect each of the editors in this discussion to check at least once every 48 hours, but the only penalty for not keeping up is that the discussion may get ahead of you. I would like to wrap this discussion up within two weeks, because that is the usual timeframe for discussions at this board. In about seven to ten days, we will assess whether we expect to have this discussion wrapped up. If we are making progress but do not expect to be finished in two weeks, I will recommend that we request formal mediation. There was a considerable amount of exchange between the editors after this case was filed before the coordinator asked you to wait for a volunteer moderator. I will be collapsing that discussion for now, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because it is out of place. If you think it is relevant, you may move it from the collapsed section into your own statement. I may move some of it into your opening statements in the future. For now I am just collapsing it, only because it is not in the proper place, not because there is anything wrong with it. I see that one issue has to do with linguistics, in particular with what language family was used, and about how to present different hypotheses in accordance with neutral point of view. Can each of you summarize what you think is the issue about linguistics and languages? Are there any other issues that need discussing? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
First statements by editors
Second statement by volunteer moderatorThe previous statement by User:Easy772 is a complete statement of his view, and is too long to be a summary. I have collapsed it. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with it, but it doesn't answer my original request. By the way, please see Too long, didn't read. I will read it, but I first want to know what the issues are before I know what the authorities are about the issues. I would like a one-paragraph or two-paragraph statement by each editor of what they think the issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:17, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Second statements by editorsApologies, I'm new to Wikipedia and it's policies. Regarding Linguistics: I think the issue is the 'due weight' we think should be assigned to the citations above. As I mentioned, some editors that originally disagreed with me, have since compromised to a brief mention (something along the lines of "the Shang language is widely believed to have been an ancestral form of Sinitic, though there have been occasional proposals for a Southeast Asian affinity"). I think the wording needs to be changed as Nishidani noted, but something to that extent. I think the given citations warrant such a mention at least. Regarding Physical anthropology: I wanted to write a brief chapter initially, but now with the additional materials that have been cited in the discussion, I am fairly confident we can make an interesting section on it. Again, I've included the citations in the post above and am completely open to how to accurately paraphrase the material and give it "due weight". The "jist" is that:
The "core issue" initially seemed to be that the remains were thought to be slaves and not citizens of the Shang. Then the "core issue" seemed to develop into me not having a secondary source to 'verify' the results in the primary sources mentioned above. The secondary source in the above post is in line with the primary material, however. Easy772 (talk) 17:50, 21 June 2015 (UTC) I forgot to mention that the citation for '3' for the proposed section on physical anthropology, which editor 'Lathdrinor' supplied us with, is being contested by editor 'Rajmaan' as being biased. He claimed the publisher of Sino-Platonic is intent on proving the Indo-European origin of the Shang Dynasty. Of course we can't include biased material and I'm awaiting Rajmaan to substantiate his claim before including it. The citation itself: On the presence of non-Chinese at Anyang It's not long, and although the author hints of 'multicultural elements' of sorts, if you read it you can see that the author is not implying an Indo-European elite. She specifically cautions that none of the pit remains have been compared to remains of 'elites', includes a citation that suggests they were likely war captives and that they were neighbors that "weren't on speaking terms" etc. Easy772 (talk) 19:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Second statement by OgressRobert McClenon Easy772 This DRN is regarding the linguistics issue. I don't understand why you replied with four sentences on that topic and then went wild on a different topic. I'm not going to make a statement until you stop. Ogress smash! 00:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Third statement by volunteer moderatorI asked the participants whether there were any other issues about which there was disagreement for which there could be moderated discussion. User:Easy772 replied that they want to add a section on physical anthropology, so that was a reply to my question. If User:Ogress doesn't want to discuss physical anthropology, she is not required to discuss it. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:27, 22 June 2015 (UTC) I understand that there are issues of due weight about the linguistic issue. That doesn't say who disagrees with whom about what. Can any editor please summarize concisely, in one or two paragraphs, what they think should be added to or removed from the article? I assume that it is about adding a section to the article, because the section on Language isn't currently in the article. What does each editor want the article to say about language? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:27, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Once again, I would like a concise summary of what each editor wants added to the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:27, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Third statements by editorsFirst thing that should be noted is that my stance has changed since we first started the discussion. It's now obvious to me that "Old Chinese" language is described as Sinitic by most scholars and this should be given the most attention/weight. Old Chinese itself as noted in the linguistic citations above has an "affinity" of sorts to Austro-Asiatic that I think was interesting at least and warrants a brief mention of sorts, though I wouldn't want to give the impression that 'Old Chinese' was an AA (Austro Asiatic) language if it is a minority opinion. Most of the arguments essentially boil down to the due weight, correct paraphrasing and validity of these materials. I requested help objectively paraphrasing the material, but none was given, just various personal attacks and outbursts etc. What I think the proposed Language section should include:
I welcome constructive criticism and hope we can all cooperate in making both of these sections. Easy772 (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Fourth statement by volunteer moderatorI see that User:Easy772 says that their position has changed since discussion began. Do other editors agree with the restated position (which is now concise), in which case the linguistic issue is resolved, or do other editors still think that dispute resolution is necessary? If they disagree, please state how they disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Fourth statement by Easy772Fourth statements by other editorsThe idea that Old Chinese was an Austroasiatic language isn't a minority opinion – I know of no published author that has even suggested it. Nor has anyone suggested that Old Chinese was not Sinitic. Rather DeLancey has resurrected an old suggestion that the language of the Shang was not Sinitic or Sino-Tibetan, and that Old Chinese was created by the encounter between that language and the Sino-Tibetan language of the Zhou, who conquered the Shang. (Nor does he even mention Austroasiatic – his suggested candidate is Hmong-Mien.) The idea that the Shang spoke a non-Sinitic language is not taken seriously by the scholars who have been reading their texts and analysing their language for the last century. The proposed "affinity" phrasing insinuates, but says nothing of substance. This is because it rests on three authors talking about very different things: DeLancey as above, Schuessler about substrate vocabulary in OC and Sagart about morphological typology. The combination of these is synthesis. (None of us know what the fourth source is saying, because all we have is a machine-translated abstract.) I would focus on the work of scholars in deciphering the script and the extent to which the inscriptions are understood, with a brief description of the characteristics of the language. Kanguole 20:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Fourth statement by Easy772@Kanguole: It's not necessarily synthesis, all three have to do with the language and I can see how it could be put together to be synthesis, but with the proper wording we can give each it's own due weight. Regarding your statement that no one published takes it seriously, De Lancey is quoted in Jing-Schmidt's book as saying "Benedict's and Nishida's suggestion that the language of the Shang dynasty was of non Sino-Tibetan provenance, and that Old Chinese represents the outcome of the Sino-Tibetan speech of the Zhou conquerors on a Shang substrate, provides a possible explanation for the Southern features in Sinitic- Assuming the Shang language was of Bai Yue stock, which is certainly likely." (page 88) https://books.google.com/books?id=zOhFAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=shang&f=false It may not be his theory, but it's clearly taken very seriously by DeLancey. I agree that the primary focus should be on the work of scholars deciphering the script, but I do not think the material I have cited should be excluded. I am confident they meet 'reliable source' criteria, (except maybe the 'machine translated' paper) and just need to be paraphrased properly. If the scholars are talking about different aspects of 'Old Chinese' perhaps: "Various aspects of Old Chinese have been shown to have affinity to Southeast Asian languages" or something of the sort should be briefly mentioned. Easy772 (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Fifth statement by volunteer moderatorPlease comment on content, not contributors. Since some of you have ideas about what should be said about language, I invite each editor to write a draft about the language or languages used in the Shang dynasty. You may provide it either here, with a level 4 header or a bold-face header above it, such as Draft by Editor Y, or in user space. Then please comment on the content of each other's drafts, with bold-face or italic headers and with signatures. Fifth statements by editorsI wrote an outline of the general ideas I think we should include. I think the main issue we're having is any direct mention of any kind of "Southeast Asian" or perceived "non-Chinese" affinity to the language section. The other points would be relatively easy to agree on.
easy772 Language Section
Again, this is an "alpha" and I welcome constructive criticism. If you have more to add that will help me highlight the importance of Old Chinese being a part of the Sino-Tibetan family, I'll gladly add it. I think that the aforementioned citations deserve at least that brief mention. Easy772 (talk) 07:31, 23 June 2015 (UTC) Comment by Kanguole I've placed a draft for a Language section at User:Kanguole/ShangLanguage. Since Easy772 is no longer arguing for the inclusion of the suggestion that the language of the Shang was not Old Chinese, the language of the succeeding Zhou dynasty, the last three sentences of his draft are about Chinese and Sino-Tibetan, rather than being particularly relevant to the Shang. Indeed the fourth sentence also appears in the Old Chinese article. The third sentence repeats the point, with an unnecessary preamble "Though it was previously disputed". My objection to the last sentence is unchanged – it implies but does not inform, and is synthesis – but the addition of the obsolete Austric hypothesis has made it worse. Kanguole 22:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Sixth statement by volunteer moderatorWe don’t seem to be making much progress in getting a draft of the Language section beyond what Easy772 has written, so I will ask each of you to comment in your own section. (It seems that at least one post wasn’t signed.) I see that Easy772 has prepared a draft, and that Easy772 and Kanguole are discussing it. You may either comment on Easy772’s draft or prepare your own draft. Comment only on content, not on each other. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Sixth statement by Easy772I actually like Kanguole's draft, it looks like he put a lot of time into it. My only criticism is that he/she seems to be writing to an audience he/she assumes will have some prior experience with linguistics, which we can't expect for the average reader of this article. I still don't think saying "aspects of Old Chinese have a Southeast Asian resemblance" is misleading, seeing as a lot of the 'introductory' paragraphs or chapters in many works state various 'aspects' of the language (etyma, morphological typology etc.) have such an affinity. The subject also seems to be a 'work in progress', with many new developments. In the spirit of compromise however, If the cited material is given due weight elsewhere as Kanguole mentioned earlier. I'm willing to omit it in this particular section of Wikpedia and move our focus to the 'physical anthropology' section. --Easy772 (talk) 19:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Sixth statement by NishidaniSixth statement by RajmaanSixth statement by KanguoleI linked to a userspace draft above. Kanguole 17:45, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Sixth statement by OgressI like Kanguole's draft. Ogress smash! 20:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Sixth statement by ZanheSeventh statement by volunteer moderatorAre we now in agreement that Kanguole's draft can be added to the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Easy772 has mentioned wanting to discuss physical anthropology. What in particular is the issue? Is there disagreement? Do we need to continue discussion here, or can the creation of the section be taken back to the article and its talk page? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Seventh statement by Easy772Regarding linguistics: I am happy with Kanguole's article besides jargon issues, but I'm not particularly adamant about them. The problem I'm having is I think my material is being unjustly reverted. The material definitely meets meets Wiki's criteria for reliable sources, but there's apparently no way to word it properly so therefore we should omit it? I wouldn't mind posting it in the relevant more technical sections if that truly is the issue here. Regarding physical anthropology: I'm not sure what the issue currently is. The issue, at first, seemed to be that the Shang sacrificial pit remains were not representative of "commoners" or "citizens". I provided a secondary source citation in which a scholar (Howells 1983) claims to outright refute this. The "main issue" then shifted to me not providing secondary sources verifying my primary sources, but the secondary source is in line with the primary sources I've posted. Regarding genetics: We actually may have a new issue, depending on how these latest reversions/edits play out. The genetics section contained one line from a primary source taken out of context. I have no personal problem with people using primary sources, so long as they stick to abstract/conclusion/summary type sections and not cherry pick content to mislead. However, this is exactly what that single quote, taken out of context does, as it completely skips over the multiple cautionary statements the authors make regarding interpreting this limited data. I added 2 of these cautionary notes verbatim and Kanguole reverted this without paraphrasing any of the cautionary material. I also would like to note the hypocrisy of this: requiring that I have a secondary source to verify proper interpretation, while at the same time using a primary source without a secondary when it suits (at the same time cherry picking material to present in a one-sided fashion). We should be held to the same standards, if primary sources require secondary ones then we should stick to that. Easy772 (talk) 19:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Here is the edit I'm talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shang_dynasty&diff=668617980&oldid=668615244 And here is the actual primary source: https://www.academia.edu/5297877/2013_AAPA_poster-_Preliminary_Research_on_Hereditary_Features_of_Yinxu_Population Easy772 (talk) 20:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Seventh statement by NishidaniSeventh statement by RajmaanSeventh statement by KanguoleI removed text that was copied verbatim into the article from the source. From Easy772's edit, it seems we agree to avoid primary sources on genetics. Presumably the same also applies to skeletal studies. I would add that the secondary sources we use should directly address the matter we are citing them for. To take pieces of evidence from different sources (even reliable secondary ones), and combine them to support a conclusion is the very definition of synthesis. It is the procedure that is the problem, not the individual steps of the deduction. Kanguole 21:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I should be clear as well, there is no problem using primary sources provided (most importantly) that they summarize properly, also a secondary source should be given to back it up. Regarding the Anyang remains, it's crystal clear in both the primary and secondary material analyzing the research that the Anyang remains closest modern proxy is Hainan Islanders. If "Ban Chiang, a Prehistoric Village Site in Northeast Thailand, Volume 1" is not relevant enough, Howells also analyzed previous research (Yang 1966) to note these same similarities in 1983. The close distance between Hainan Islanders and the Anyang remains is also noted in the primary sources I've listed. Howells also stated these were average people not necessarily slaves. Easy772 (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC) Seventh statement by OgressI actually don't understand Easy772's issue with regard to the "new issue", since the cite states, "The Yinxu population bore a high genetic resemblance in maternal lineages to the northern Han Chinese and other minority (sic) who lives (sic) in North China." As far as I can tell, Kanguole removed an uncredited quote and summarised it in a few words, "Yinxu graves showed similarity with modern Han Chinese and minority groups from northern China, but significant differences from southern Han Chinese." Can you clarify? Ogress smash! 03:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Easy772 (talk) 17:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC) Seventh statement by ZanheEighth statement by volunteer moderatorAre we now in agreement that Kanguole's draft can be added to the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC) Easy772 has mentioned wanting to discuss physical anthropology, and genetics. Is there disagreement about these areas that we want to work out here, or can discussion continue at the article talk page? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Eighth statement by Easy772I think physical anthropology needs to be discussed here, I doubt we will come to an agreement without mediation. The issue now seems to be the requirement of a secondary source to back up my primary sources. I have 2 (so far):
The language section is fine despite minor jargon issues, it's a little technical for a non-linguistics secion, but I will agree that it should be posted. However, I still maintain that the information I've cited belongs "somewhere" on Wikipedia if we cannot agree on a concise statement that gives "due weight" and is not "synthesis". I think that still needs to be discussed here. Easy772 (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC) Third secondary source: Previous multivariate craniometrics studies by Pietrusewsky, which have examined variation in East and Southeast Asian cranial series, have demonstrated internal differentiation as well as broad external patterning reflecting historical-biological relationships and past migrations. For example, while cranial series from Southeast Asia, East Asia and North Asia ultimately group into a single major constellation, there are also provocative connections between island Southeast Asia and Remote Oceania. Likewise connections between mainland and Island Southeast Asia, between Bronze-age Chinese and Hainan Island and Taiwan (including Taiwan aboriginal series were found. These connections may reflect earlier exchanges between peoples, cultures and languages of these regions. [2] Easy772 (talk) 01:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC) References
Eighth statement by NishidaniEighth statement by RajmaanEighth statement by KanguoleI shall be arguing for a thorough application of the NOR policy, particularly PSTS and SYN, to passages on genetic and skeletal analysis in this and similar articles. This is necessary, because interpretation of these results is contentious, even among experts, and their implications arouse passions in society and on Wikipedia. I didn't think that would require DRN, but this is Easy772's party. Kanguole 00:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Eighth statement by OgressEighth statement by ZanheNinth statement by volunteer moderatorWhy doesn’t each editor who wants to add anything on Physical Anthropology, Genetics, or any other new section just prepare a draft for other editors to see? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC) Ninth statement by Easy772
References
I have added the reflist. I have additional primary material that supplement the secondary ones that I can add later. The 1997 is a primary, but it is directly cited as the basis for the meta-analysis Blench et al. performs. I can also add additional interesting information, but I am trying to figure out how to properly word it (e.g. describe that Anyang were "relatively" similar to Ban Chiang remains, but nowhere near as close as modern Hainanese which by far is the best proxy.) Easy772 (talk) 17:53, 29 June 2015 (UTC) Pages added --Easy772 (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC) Classification of Secondary Sources
Attempts to map or model scientific and scholarly communication need the concepts of primary, secondary and further "levels". One such model is the UNISIST model of information dissemination. Within such a model these concepts are defined in relation to each other, and the acceptance of this way of defining the concepts are connected to the acceptance of the model. Some other modern languages use more than one word for the English word "source". German usually uses Sekundärliteratur ("secondary literature") for secondary sources for historical facts, leaving Sekundärquelle ("secondary source") to historiography. A Sekundärquelle is a source which can tell about a lost Primärquelle ("primary source"), such as a letter quoting from minutes which are no longer known to exist, so cannot be consulted by the historian.
A book review that contains the judgment of the reviewer about the book is a primary source for the reviewer's opinion, and a secondary source for the contents of the book. A summary of the book within a review is a secondary source.
"Secondary" does not mean "independent" or "uninvolved". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Party_and_person#Combinatorics "Scientist combines data from a dozen of his own previously published experiments into a meta-analysis." Is a Secondary Source I am convinced in the context these sources are definitely secondary, as they are reviews of previous research. The information I am posting is accurate, we are just getting caught up in a "grey area" due to the subjective nature of defining secondary vs primary sources. Easy772 (talk) 01:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Ninth statement by NishidaniNinth statement by RajmaanNinth statement by KanguoleI'm not proposing any additions to the article in these areas. Kanguole 07:53, 29 June 2015 (UTC) Easy772's draft is missing citations, which need to be embedded in the text for it to be considered for inclusion. If these are given using the usual <ref>...</ref> markup, the footnotes can be forced at the end of the draft by adding Page numbers are needed for references 2 and 4. Kanguole 18:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC) In Easy772's draft, reference [1] is not a meta-analysis by Blench et al, but an article by Michael Pietrusewsky based on his own research, as also reported in references [2] and [4], but here in a book edited by Sagart, Blench and Sanchez-Mazas. So we have three reports by Pietrusewsky on his own research, i.e. primary sources. Moreover reference [1] contains only a glancing reference to Bronze Age Chinese, while references [2] and [4] are searching for populations related to the Ban Chiang site by comparing them with samples from surrounding areas. It's not appropriate to use this for a different purpose, namely as a source on relationships between those neighbouring areas. Similarly reference [3] is Howells reporting his own analysis, though at least in that case it is squarely focussed on the Shang. Kanguole 23:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC) For the sake of clarity, the full form of the above references is:
Kanguole 08:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC) In summary,
Kanguole 12:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Ninth statement by Ogress
To which Easy772 replies, "Yes, it does. read it again." And to which Kanguole replies:
To which Easy772 originally replied, "It's different interpretations on the same set of crania. I can easily find secondary sources."
Kanguole also noted that Easy772 also failed to cite properly. He did it again above, and Kanguole once again had to explain.
Ninth statement by ZanheReferencesReferences Tenth statement by volunteer moderatorAs previously mentioned, I would like to get this case closed by Friday, in accordance with the concept that this board is for light-weight moderated discussion. It doesn’t look as though this discussion will be wrapping up in three days, since one editor wants to add material on Craniometrics and another editor appears to object rather strongly. The scope of this discussion seems to keep increasing. We have two options that I can identify. First, the original focus of this discussion was about Language. We seem to have agreement there. We can agree that the Language edits that Kanguole has proposed be made, and that questions about them (such as knowledge level) can be discussed on the article talk page, and that other issues can be discussed on the article talk page. Second, we can transfer this thread to Formal Mediation. Should we just close this thread and take further discussion to the talk page, or should we request formal mediation? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC) User:Ogress - In response to your complaint about Easy772 adding replies to the comments of others, that is a side effect of the fact that I have requested comments by each editor in a separate section. The alternative would be threaded discussion. Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Follow-Up: Since the scope of this discussion is expanding, with new additions being suggested, I will be requesting formal mediation. Each editor can either agree or disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Tenth statement by Easy772I think we need formal mediation and I would like to request for it. The "core issue" has shifted from the remains being non representative of Shang(Howells 1983 and subsequent works no longer even mention the possibility), to not having any secondary sources (revolving around a confusion that a secondary source needs to be third-party) and now the "relevance" and "age" of my sources are being attacked. Regarding relevance of my physical anthropology sources: I think this also is subjective and we may need a neutral third party to determine how extensively a topic needs to be covered in deciding what should be considered relevant. Pietrusewsky has compared the Anyang remains to every series that he compared the Ban Chiang remains to. He extensively covers the bronze-age remains' relation to other populations past and modern and makes explicit conclusions on them based off of decades of research. Just because "Shang" isn't in the title, doesn't mean the work doesn't deal with the Shang remains extensively. Regarding the "age" of my physical anthropology sources: This implies the similarity Howells (1983) notes or conclusions he makes are outdated. But, the similarity to bronze-age Chinese, Taiwanese and Hainanese Howells notes have continued to be observed to this day. I am unaware of anyone who still considers the skulls in his data set "non-Asian", but if you find later criticisms, feel free to post them and we can "balance" the section. Regarding linguistics: I agreed that we should post Kanguoles draft, however I still feel my material undoubtedly meets the standards of Wikipedia and am conferring with a friend who is much more adept in linguistics than I, on where these should be posted and how to accurately word these. It may take some time, so this may have to be a later discussion. --Easy772 (talk) 18:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Tenth statement by NishidaniTenth statement by RajmaanTenth statement by KanguoleThe core issue has always been the use of sources in relation to WP:NOR, especially primary sources and synthesis. The question of whether the victims were representative was just an example of the difficulties of interpreting primary sources. We seem to have got nowhere. Kanguole 20:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC) I don't believe mediation will be useful here. Since Easy772 says he wishes to pursue this, I would suggest that he clean up his draft (e.g. full citations, and attach them to the appropriate part of the text), post it on Talk:Shang dynasty, and post an RFC there asking whether the section as drafted should be included in the article. Kanguole 23:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Tenth statement by OgressSince Easy772 can only provide us with three articles by one scholar not on the topic of Shang and has found a RS that does not help unless it's used to interpret P's work, yes, I'd say I object strongly. Also for all the above reasons that show we haven't moved forward barely one step on this issue of craniometrics. Also, for clarity: Easy772 keeps meta-replying in his statements, returning to add replies to the essays of others. Is that the procedure for the boards? It's hard to evaluate when he adds second or third essays to his existing stage X essay in order to immediately counter the essays of other editors. I had expected this would happen in stages, so that replies would be in the next section, i.e. 8, then 9, then 10 as time passes. Can anyone clarify this? I'm not often in DRN for this long. Ogress smash! 18:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Thank you for clarifying. Ogress smash! 22:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Tenth statement by Zanhe
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