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Chinese skater/skating wikipedia pages

I think I need help policing Chinese skater wiki pages a bit - there's at least one person who keeps leaving unsourced information and I'm not sure anymore they are functioning in good faith. I thought someone I had a fight with a bit back was attacking the Boyang page without any reason because it was mostly sourced and much better than the others, but now I guess they were just up in alarm about the Chinese skating pages?

If someone can at least enforce the need to place tags around unsourced information on the chinese skating and skater pages, that would be great. You can see that I had to do this for An Xiangyi, Wang Xinkang, and Li Xuantong because someone just left unsourced info on there.

(@Onel5969:, @Figureskatingfan: because I've spoken to both, but really anyone interested at all.)Editor120918756 (talk) 07:20, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

New templates for skater biographies available

@ErnestKrause and Figureskatingfan: I have created two new templates that are currently in the testing phase, and I'd like to present them here in short form.

{{Infobox person
|name=Example
|module={{Figure skating WS and SB
 |embed=yes
 |2016–17|1|1
 |2017–18|1|3
 |2018–19|3|2
}}}}

1. New infobox template for world standings and season's bests: {{Figure skating WS and SB}}
   This template can be added to infoboxes as a collapsible module, as tested on the biography pages of Yuzuru Hanyu and Javier Fernández. The two big advantages of this template are the very short and easy markup code for editing and the compact form (WS and SB are listed side-by-side in two columns instead below each other). This is especially practical for skaters with long careers to keep the infobox at reasonable length. Here is short example on the right:
   
   
2. New template for detailed result tables: {{Figure skating detailed results}}
   The old layout of result tables for the skater's scores has become obsolete regarding accessibility and other issues. So I developed a new template that satisfies all current criteria of the Wiki Manual of Style and is easy to edit with a short markup code, as tested on the pages of Johnny Weir, Tessa Virtue, and Yuzuru Hanyu. What is especially attractive about this template is that you no longer have to bother with stuff like text alignment or background colors for podium placements. The template automatically interpretes a "3" in the placement cell as a bronze medal and colors the cell accordingly. Example:

Results in the 2011–12 season 

Date	Event	SP		FS		Total
		P	Score	P	Score	P	Score
Sep 21–24, 2011	2011 Nebelhorn Trophy	1	75.26	1	151.00	1	226.26
Mar 26 – Apr 1, 2012	2012 World Championships	7	77.07	2	173.99	3	251.06

I am curious about your opinions. Sure, it would be an awful lot of work to change all WS/SB lists or result tables. However, if we want to promote more skater biographies to featured article class, this change will be required anyways (as we could see in the cases of Hanyu and Weir). So I think it's good to have a powerful tool that is easy to use. It also unburdens the articles massively in size. Virtue's page has become about 5 kB shorter, Hanyu's career achievement list even 10 kB. Henni147 (talk) 17:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended content

To be honest, I am the worst at tables, but they look pretty. ;) I agree, it's unreasonable to expect that all skater bios would move over to this new system, but it's certainly something we can do as we work on them and as we bring them to peer reviews. In the meantime, it's something to add to the tasks list on the project page. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: Yes, adding them to the task list is a good idea. I can also adapt them on Yuna's page, which is currently nominated for GA class. Henni147 (talk) 08:51, 8 March 2023 (UTC) Done. Henni, would you mind adding the templates to our style sheet? I was going to do it myself, but since you set the ones up that are already there, it makes sense that you'd add them. I also didn't want to mess up what you've done. I so appreciate that you're willing to take care of them for us. I need to update the other bios I've worked on, too, but done worry, I won't ask you to do it for me. ;) Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC) Done. I have listed the new templates on this project page, the FS Manual of Style, and the FS template list. I have also updated various style guidelines for FS tables to the latest versions. Henni147 (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC) Should they, or have they already been brought into the Johnny Weir page and Evan Bates pages? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC) @ErnestKrause: Yes, I have implemented the detailed results template on Johnny Weir's page already, the WS/SB table not yet because there is no existing list in his infobox, and I didn't have the time to look all placements up yet. However, I have implemented both templates on Kim Yuna's page, and added the new detailed results to Scott Moir's page, since his results are the same as Virtue's, so there was not much to be done. Is there a particular reason, why Evan Bates' page should be adjusted (GA/FA nomination)? I am very busy with updating Hanyu's ice show article right now, with all incoming news about the Notte Stellata show being held this weekend. Henni147 (talk) 18:08, 10 March 2023 (UTC) I'm thinking that Hanyu is the high priority right now; by the next Olympics, Nathan Chen, Evan Bates, and others will have alot of coverage. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:12, 10 March 2023 (UTC) I've implemented both templates on Chen's (the article is not quite ready for a re-assessment yet though). MovieTalk101178 (talk) 18:09, 15 March 2023 (UTC) @MovieTalk101178: Thank you very much for implementing the new templates on Chen's article! I hope, they are easy and friendly to use? I would be very interested in a quick feedback :) I made some minor adjustments to Chen's result tables: Wiki tables should generally use en-dashes instead of hyphens to indicate none/missing results, and abbreviations of months should not end with full stops (see MOS:DATESNO). I fixed both in the tables. I removed the individual total placement in brackets for the Japan Open, since there is no combined total score in that competition, and the free skate placement is listed in the second column already. I hope, that makes sense. I also adjusted the competitive highlights in accordance with Wikipedia's latest accessibility requirements (added scope parameters etc.) Henni147 (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC) They are much better than the previous ones. Hanyu, Weir and Yuna's pages look fantastic. :) Thank you so much for fixing. :) I had been struggling with the page size, not so much readable prose, but the full size was a problem and these new tables made a huge difference. Thank you!! :) MovieTalk101178 (talk) 15:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC) @MovieTalk101178: Awesome! Yes, this was the main motivation behind these templates; reduce the total page size, make the editing easier, and meet Wiki's latest formatting requirements.

New templates for competitive highlights and program tables

I eventually managed to create proper templates for the competitive highlights and program tables, and I'd like to present them here in short form as well. A big advantage of both templates is that the tables are properly displayed and readable on narrow screens and in mobile view, too. They don't get overly distorted or stretched in length.

{{Figure skating competitive highlights}}: This template helps to unburden the page size of skater biographies (-2.9 kB for Yuzuru Hanyu and ca. -1.5 kB for Yuna Kim and Johnny Weir among others). Other big advantages are that podium placements get colored automatically and you no longer need to bother with pipes for empty cells, which makes the editing and orientation much easier. Here is an example for a basic table:

Competition placements since the 2010–11 season 

Season	2010–11	2011–12	2012–13	2013–14	2017–18
World Championships		10th	3rd	1st	WD
GP NHK Trophy	8th	2nd	1st

{{Figure skating program list}}: This template helps to make the program tables uniform across all skater biographies and reduces the markup code in size as well. The template is already adapted on the biographies of Tara Lipinski, Yuna Kim, and Yuzuru Hanyu (shortlist, detailed list). Here is an example:

Competition and exhibition programs by season 

Season	Short program	Free skate program	Exhibition program
2011–12	Étude in D-sharp minor Composed by Alexander Scriabin Performed by Maksim Mrvica Choreo. by Nanami Abe	Romeo + Juliet Composed by Craig Armstrong Choreo. by Nanami Abe Tracks used "O Verona" "Kissing You" (performed by Des'ree) "Escape" (from Plunkett & Macleane)	—
2012–13	Étude in D-sharp minor	Romeo + Juliet	"Hello, I Love You" Performed by The Doors Remixed by Adam Freeland Choreo. by Kurt Browning

@Figureskatingfan: I can add the new templates to the FS project page and MOS. Henni147 (talk) 15:45, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes Henni that's a good idea. Thanks for doing this! I admire your hard work so much, and your dedication with such a technically difficult task. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much :) I hope that these templates will help to make the editing of skater biographies and the promotion to FA/GA class easier in the future. If you notice any bugs with the templates, please feel free to address them here or directly on the template's talk pages. Henni147 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 or @Figureskatingfan, I am attempting to graft this new template onto Andrew Torgashev#Competitive highlights, and the formatting of the placement cells is not rendering properly. Can you please take a look and let me know what I am doing wrong. Thank you! Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, I am having difficulty with the last row (2022-2023) of Andrew Torgashev#Programs, where he has two different songs in his free skate program. I cannot figure out how to render the code so that both songs are displayed. Please check the code, as the information is there, just not displaying properly. Thank you! Bgsu98 (Talk) 03:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Hi! Sorry for the delayed reply. I just took a quick look at Torgashev's article and fixed all the issues you mentioned above. Thank you very much for pointing out the formatting bug with the {{FS placements}} template! Henni147 (talk) 09:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I feel stupid, because I cannot make heads nor tails of the repertoire template. I tried adding it to an article today and there are just too many variables that are not explained on the template page. For example, what if there are two free skate programs in one season? I tried; maybe I should just stick with the placement tables. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147, I made a very slight change to the template so that cells identified as WD, C, or TBD have a faint gray background. This helps them stand out as something unusual, but does not conflict with the gray background used for silver placements. Please take a look at any results table and let me know what you think. Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Some important notes for all FS editors

• The content of all tables should be sorted chronologically from first to last event or program, not in reverse order (see MOS:BLPCHRONO).
• To indicate a time span or period, please use en dashes (–) instead of hyphens (-). For a period within the same month, use unspaced en dashes like Feb 6–8, 2018, for a period that spans more than one month, use spaced en dashes like Jan 29 – Feb 1, 2018 (see MOS:DOB).
• For the explanatory legend above the tables, please use spaced en dashes as well like "S – Event at senior level".
• For figure skating programs, the same formatting rules apply like for music titles (see MOS:MUSIC). This means:

• classical pieces with generic titles like a ballade, nocturne, or piano concerto (usually recognizable by a number or key like Ballade No. 1 in G minor) use standard font without any additions.
• classical pieces with true titles like Moonlight Sonata, or musicals like The Phantom of the Opera, or movie medleys like Schindler's List or other major works all use italic font.
• songs like "Bohemian Rhapsody" or "Parisienne Walkways" use standard font and are placed in quotation marks.

• The {{FS program}} template should only be used at the first occurrence of a program in the table. If a skater brings a program back for another season, it is enough to only add the title of the piece, not all details like composer, choreographer etc. to avoid duplicate information and keep the table at reasonable size. Same goes for linking. It is enough to link a piece or person only at the first mentioning in the table (see MOS:OVERLINK).

When you are adapting the new table templates on the skaters' biographies, please make sure to follow the rules above, so that the articles automatically meet Wikipedia's latest formatting standards and don't need another revamp for FA or GA reviews. Thank you very much! Henni147 (talk) 09:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147, should we put this great advice in our MOS? I can do it if you like, just let me know. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Most of these guidelines are listed in our MOS already, but I can check for missing ones and add them. It was important for me to bundle these advices here in compact form too because it's the most common issues that I noticed with recent edits. Henni147 (talk) 07:44, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I just updated Daniel Grassl#Competitive highlights, but because there were so many competitions, I had to split his junior and novice competitions into two separate tables. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:10, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Yes, this split is a smart decision. Thank you very much for your work! One important note: please do not add a "T" to placements or scores at team events. It messes up the automatic coloring of the table cells among other issues. To mark team events, use the "note" and "ref" templates as now done on Grassl's page, too.

By the way: I recognized that the country codes for the flagicons are a bit tricky at times. "SLO" is the abbreviation for Slovenia and "SVK" for Slovakia among others (also, NEVER shorten Japan with "JAP", which is considered an ethnic slur; the official abbreviation for Japan in sports is JPN). I will add a list with the most common abbreviations in figure skating to the template documentation and our Manual of Style. Here is also a full list of IOC country codes, which I will add as well. Henni147 (talk) 12:40, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: I saw that you reverted my latest edit on Andrew Torgashev's article. This section split by different judging systems was explicitely suggested in the FAC review for the List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu#Detailed results, so we should definitely go with it for all skater biographies. It is always important to make clear, in which system scoring results (including ISU personal best scores) were achieved. Henni147 (talk) 14:58, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

One person's suggestion does not constitute a policy. This is not a fan wiki; these articles are meant to be read and understood by the average reader who is not a figure skating superfan. The +5/-5 v. +3/-3 distinction does not mean anything to most people, nor does the use of GOE, which is undefined when used in a caption heading. All this does is make the tables unnecessarily complicated. See Stephen Gogolev#Senior level for an example of how this was previously notated. A note - "Under the new scoring system, the International Skating Union restarted all records at zero on July 1, 2018. See: "Progression of record scores" under List of highest scores in figure skating." - is included and this is presumably when the switch from +3 to +5 took place. This note was already in place when I converted the tables over and seems like as good a notation as necessary. All I did was format it properly. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:18, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: The split by judging systems was suggested by an FLC reviewer who had no experience with figure skating at all. He asked us to do it to make clear that the scores achieved in the different systems cannot be compared with each other. With that separation, it is also visually more clear which scores are current WR/PB and which ones historical WR/PB.

By the way: do we have an official definition for "senior/junior level"? Daniel Grassl had seasons with more 2/3 senior events, but the results were still listed in the junior sub-section, which is a bit odd imo. I saw that in Ilia Malinin's article, some seasons appear in both sections, so there seems to be no real consensus yet. Henni147 (talk) 07:42, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

If you want to do that, then there has to be some explanation on each athlete’s page as to what the difference is. It can even be a stock paragraph that we simply copy/paste into each article. Because as you formatted it on the few pages I’ve edited, there is zero explanation and the average reader would have no idea what the difference is, or why, or why it should matter. I’ll see if I can come up with something.

As far as senior v. junior, your guess is as good as mine. I went back to the text biographies to see when each skater was “officially” upgraded to senior; sometimes it was mid season after they’d already done several junior competitions. Sometimes they’d be juniors who competed as seniors only nationally. It’s weird. Bgsu98 (Talk) 07:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Skaters must fulfill a set of criteria before they're promoted to each level; depending on the country, sometimes they have to pass skills tests, or they have to perform well at regional and national competitions. There are age requirements as well. Re: Bgsu98's suggestion above, I come up with this question: how is it done in other sports bios? I mean, does baseball players have the same paragraph in their bios? The main article, which is a FA, has a link to Minor League Baseball, which explains the requirements players must fulfill to enter each league, though. The solution for us over here, then, is to put an explanation of the requirements for skaters to move up through the ranks on our main article, Figure skating. It's been obvious for years that it's in need of major improvement and I've been slowly working on it as I've improved articles about the technical aspect of the sport (elements, disciplines, etc.), especially in the last six months or so. History of figure skating also needs major improvements. All these things require time and we're all working to make all figure skating articles better. For this case, we need to research the rules surrounding ranks and at least write up something to put on the main article. IOW, there's so much work to be done and each of us is doing what we can, often with impressive results and despite the challenges we face. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my response seemed ambiguous, but my first paragraph - "If you want to do that, then there has to be some explanation on each athlete’s page as to what the difference is. It can even be a stock paragraph that we simply copy/paste into each article. Because as you formatted it on the few pages I’ve edited, there is zero explanation and the average reader would have no idea what the difference is, or why, or why it should matter." - was in reference to the +5 v. +3 issue. If we're going to differentiate between the two, then there has to be some explanation given, because the average reader is not going to know what any of that is about.

The average reader, I think, can differentiate between "junior" and "senior" even if they don't know the formalities. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I totally get that. Perhaps this is what you're talking about regarding the scoring change? In Ice dance (see note b) and some other articles, I put in a short note that explains the change and when it went into affect. I think that I agree with you about at least not abbrievating GOE. Since I'm listing my own goals for these articles here, I'd also like to improve and expand ISU Judging System like I did with 6.0 system so that the non-fans can read and learn about it, 'cause we all know how complicated it can be. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:12, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Split proposal

There is a request discussed here on whether, and if yes, how, to split content from List of highest scores in figure skating. Input from members of this WikiProject would be very welcome. Felix QW (talk) 10:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Golden Skate

Hi everyone, I've been working on the above-mentioned List of highest scores in figure skating, placing secondary sources to support the scores, and have found that in about 90% of time, Golden Skate links turn out to be dead, even if you access them from a google search. They are, however, again most of the time, easily found on the Wayback Machine. I suggest that if you've worked on any articles and bios that use Golden Skate for your sources, that you check them and fix them if you can. It also demonstrates the importance of archiving each and every source we use for figure skating article and bios. Thanks and best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 14:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yes. Same goes for online articles from Ice Network and the International Figure Skating magazine. They are all reliable source, but no longer available. Henni147 (talk) 19:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147, At least when Ice Network closed down, they went through the trouble of archiving their articles. IFS didn't, but they closed recently, in the last month, so they haven't. I doubt that IFS will, since they closed because the publisher had health issues. Ice Network merged (or was taken over) by U.S. Figure Skating and they obviously saw the value in keeping their content online. Perhaps IFS will get around to archiving their content, but I don't think it makes much of a difference because most of their content wasn't accessible online, anyway. I hope they will, anyway, because figure skating desperately needs its history to be recorded somewhere. At any rate, forgive my repetition, but it demonstrates how important it is for us to archive everything we use for sources. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@FigureskatingfanActually, I believe the publisher passed away (RIP) Editor120918756 (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Personal bests

Is there a way to add historical personal bests and also the technical and presentation personal bests to the info box?

If not, can we edit the current infobox to do this? This section can be collapsible. Or we can make a collapsible "personal best" box where we can insert these things. Editor120918756 (talk) 05:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: There have been multiple discussions, but it was eventually decided to to limit the PB section to the segment scores in the +5/-5 GOE system to keep the infobox at reasonable length. For skaters whose PB were higher in the +3/-3 GOE system (like Yuzuru Hanyu), we listed the historical records in the infobox and added a note tag with the PB in the current system.

I agree that it would be better to have both, current and historical PB in the box, but we have to accept the majority's decision. (Note: The figure skating infobox can only be changed by users who have permission for the editing of protected templates.) Henni147 (talk) 11:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Was there discussion of technical and presentation personal bests? Editor120918756 (talk) 11:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

As far as I remember, it was decided not to include TES and PCS in the infobox. That would require 8 additional rows (score+event for each), making the infobox unreasonably long. In the case of Hanyu and some others, we already had to collapse the medal list and the WS/SB table, but the collapsing only works in deskop view. In mobile view, the infobox is ridiculously long already.

What could be done is to add a table for personal best TES+PCS+TSS in the result section. However, before we do that, it should be discussed globally. If there is consens to include it, I would volunteer to create a template for that PB table that is uniform for all skater bios. Henni147 (talk) 17:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan Editor120918756 (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 I have no problem with your suggestions, especially the one about not putting TES and PCS in infoboxes. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@FigureskatingfanChristine, to be clear, you are agreeing with this suggestion:

"add a table for personal best TES+PCS+TSS in the result section. However, before we do that, it should be discussed globally." Editor120918756 (talk) 06:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, as my daughter would say, "Yesss!" ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

So where do people have this "global discussion"? Editor120918756 (talk) 11:26, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

We could just have it here. @Editor120918756, is that correct? Then we'd go with the consensus. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:34, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I'm for adding PBs for tech and pcs to the results section. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:15, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Voting

@Editor120918756 and Figureskatingfan: Then let's have a proper voting here as it's done in other Wiki spaces, too.

Proposal: Add a table template with ISU personal best scores (TSS+TES+PCS) of a skater or team to their biography page, using a similar formatting as the template {{Figure skating highest scores}}). If you support the idea, then vote with support, otherwise with oppose and leave a short comment. Note: Usually, it has to be at least 5 supports and not more than 2 or 1/3 opposes to pass a proposal on Wiki, so we may stick with that procedure here, too.

• Support I think, the PB table is a very valuable info that should be mentioned in the article somewhere. In my opinion, it fits best before the detailed results, which are score tables as well.
  Note: I strongly oppose to include the personal best TES and PCS in the infobox. That would require 8 additional rows, making the infobox excessively long, especially in mobile view. Henni147 (talk) 11:31, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support both PCS/TES as well as historical tables.

However, if there's a vote to remove historical ones, I will still support the PCS/TES table.

Ultimately, the current juniors and anyone who turned senior after the 2017-18 season will not have historical scores, and anyone who retired before the 2018/19 season won't have the new scores. So I kind of get why others might not want it, but I think the PCS/TES PBs are valuable nonetheless.

If we only retain the PCS/TES PBs, then I will vote for those to be included in infobox. Editor120918756 (talk) 12:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Update: I decided to split the initial table in two, so that we have one for each system. In case of skaters or teams who competed in both systems, we should add both tables. For everyone else it is one table. I think, that is a very reasonable solution. Henni147 (talk) 11:31, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support tables as presented. I support putting the tables in the Detailed results section. Like Henni147 above, I oppose including the personal best TES and PCS in the infobox. You should also all know that it's next to impossible to find secondary scores for TES and PCS scores. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

  How do we get more people to vote? We only need two more votes for it to pass. Editor120918756 (talk) 00:24, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

  My understanding is that you keep voting open for 7 days and if you don't get 5 votes, you go with the consensus. As of now, the consensus seems to be leading towards accepting the tables, but that could change by 9/17. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:29, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Figureskatingfan: The source for current and historical PB (including TES and PCS) can be found on a sub-page of each skater's official ISU biography page. So we are definitely on the safe side with that, see the ISU PB page of Yuzuru Hanyu for example. Henni147 (talk) 11:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Henni147 yes I understand that, but my goal was to find reliable secondary sources for the scores. If they don't exist, we have to depend upon the ISU-published scores to support the claims. If future reviewers have an issue with that, we'll have to explain it and hope that they'll accept the ISU sources as adequate. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Figureskatingfan: For the tables, the official ISU documents are totally enough. In the prose text, it is good to support the notability of personal bests by secondary sources, but not in the tables themselves. We had the same discussion during the FL review of Hanyu's career achievements page, so I can attest that this works. Henni147 (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Figureskatingfan@Henni147It's passed now! (or will be in another two hours anyway)Editor120918756 (talk) 09:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Figureskatingfan and Editor120918756: Right. I will try to create the table template later today, so that you can use it on the biography pages. Update: The basic template is created and should work properly, but there is a small bug with the alignment that I want to fix before we apply the template on all bios pages. I will tackle that issue tomorrow. Henni147 (talk) 18:34, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Henni147 Just saw this update, thanks for your work. Look forward to the table. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

New template

@Editor120918756: I managed to fix the bug, so the template is ready to be used now. You can find the full documentation here: {{Figure skating personal bests}}. I tried my best to make the template as simple and user-friendly as possible. The markup code for the example below looks like this:

Markup code

{{Figure skating personal bests |float=yes |322.59|[[2019 Skate Canada International|2019 Skate Canada]] |111.82|[[2020 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships|2020 Four Continents]] |63.42|2020 Four Continents |48.47|2019 Skate Canada |212.99|2019 Skate Canada |116.59|2019 Skate Canada |96.40|2019 Skate Canada }} {{Figure skating personal bests |historical=yes |''330.43''|[[2015–16 Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final|2015–16 Grand Prix Final]] |''112.72''|[[2017 CS Autumn Classic International|2017 CS Autumn Classic]] |64.17|2017 CS Autumn Classic |49.14|2015–16 Grand Prix Final |''223.20''|[[2017 World Figure Skating Championships|2017 World Championships]] |126.12|2017 World Championships |98.56|2015–16 Grand Prix Final }}

Example:

• TSS – Total segment score (highlighted in bold)
• TES – Technical element score
• PCS – Program component score
• Highest scores and highest historical scores highlighted in bold and italic (recognized by Guinness World Records)

ISU personal best scores in the +5/-5 GOE System 

Segment	Type	Score	Event
Total	TSS	322.59	2019 Skate Canada
Short program	TSS	111.82	2020 Four Continents
	TES	63.42	2020 Four Continents
	PCS	48.47	2019 Skate Canada
Free skating	TSS	212.99	2019 Skate Canada
	TES	116.59	2019 Skate Canada
	PCS	96.40	2019 Skate Canada

ISU personal best scores in the +3/-3 GOE System 

Segment	Type	Score	Event
Total	TSS	330.43	2015–16 Grand Prix Final
Short program	TSS	112.72	2017 CS Autumn Classic
	TES	64.17	2017 CS Autumn Classic
	PCS	49.14	2015–16 Grand Prix Final
Free skating	TSS	223.20	2017 World Championships
	TES	126.12	2017 World Championships
	PCS	98.56	2015–16 Grand Prix Final

For personal bests in ice dance, you have to use the parameter |ice dance=, setting it either "CD/OD/FD", "SD/FD", or "RD/FD". If you notice any bugs or issues, just ping me. Henni147 (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 To be on the same page, we're adding this to the Detailed Results section, yes? Or making a different section called "Personal Bests"? I'd be fine with either. Editor120918756 (talk) 16:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan@Henni147I added it here for now. Let me know if this is how we are in agreement about how it should be done. I did two things:

• add PB tables
• removed the PB bolded scores from the pre-existing detailed results tables.

Editor120918756 (talk) 16:37, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Yes, this looks like a smart solution to me. In case of Hanyu and Chen, whose detailed results have been moved to the sub-page about their career achievements, I suggest to add the new personal best tables there as well. I will do it for Hanyu now (it's not a big work, since his tables are finished already).

Note: It would be good to source the tables using the |ref= parameter that I added to the template. I will show how it works on Hanyu's page, and then you can adapt it for other skaters as well. Henni147 (talk) 09:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 I couldn't find the ref parameter when I was using the table, but I agree we should use it. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: I just added the tables to List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu § Detailed results. There you can take a look how it works with the reference. Thank you very much for your suggestion btw. I think, it was a great proposal. I will go through the suggestions RE the infobox below now. Henni147 (talk) 10:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Infobox change proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Following discussion above, I propose we reduce the infobox to only include peak WS along with the season, as happens in Badminton and Tennis. Gymnastics and Diving also don't go into such extensive details as we do in skating.

I propose we only retain current coach and season's choreographer (along with season mentioned) in the infobox. World standing progression can be sent to detailed results, and former coaches can be mentioned in the career section. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:51, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@FigureskatingfanThis should reduce the size of the infobox significantly. Even the isu bio doesn't list all former choreographers and all former coaches. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:52, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, I'm also fine with only listing skaters' peak WS, since I agree that including all WS makes the infobox way too large. I have a question, though: what would we include for coaches and choreographers for retired skaters? (See Johnny Weir.) Personally, I've always had a love-hate relationship with infoboxes, so I'd be okay with not including coaches and choreographers at all, since all that info is in the article, anyway. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:09, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

We could have the final coach and choreographer in the infobox for retired skaters, or remove it altogether for retired skaters (don't see it for Roger Federer). Will have to look at other tennis articles, but Federer specifically has a coaches section, which we can adopt (we can do it like "Coaches and Choreographers" for skating). Just an idea. But I'm glad we're on the same page for reducing the infobox length and world standing.Editor120918756 (talk) 22:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, I support the above proposal with the added caveat above. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfanthe separate "coaches and choreographers" section? Let me make it crystal clear, and then you can vote again.

I propose the following.

1. Only have current coach for skaters presently skating in infobox.

2. Have final coach for retired skaters infobox.

3. Coaches and Choreographers[note] section in main article for every skater, that documents all the coaches and choreographers (name and season) in chronological order.

4. Peak WS in infobox, chronological WS progression in Detailed results section.

I support my own proposal, because it makes logical sense and significantly reduces the infobox size, while preserving all details considered necessary in skating.

[note] We could drop choreographers from the main article altogether, since they are already mentioned in the programs section, and thus only have a "Coaches" section instead of "Coaches and Choreographers", which makes it even more compact and less redundant. Editor120918756 (talk) 04:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok I will now change my vote: I support @Editor120918756's proposal, except for point #3 above. I don't support #3 because as you state, the information should be in the main article and it would be redundant to list them in a separate section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:13, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@FigureskatingfanOK, that's fine by me. So basically, you agree with the [note] addition (remove choreographers from infobox altogether and don't give them a separate section because they're already in the programs section). Editor120918756 (talk) 16:18, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 since you seem to be online, could you browse through this? Editor120918756 (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I AGREE with these suggestions. Bgsu98 (Talk) 18:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

PB removal from infobox
Oh, and for further conciseness, now that the PB tables have been added, we could vote to remove PBs from infobox. I support this point as well. Editor120918756 (talk)

• I would SUPPORT this proposal only for skaters who are currently still active (thus requiring their scores to be constantly changed). Once they are retired, those scores can go in the infobox (presumably, they wouldn't change again). Bgsu98 (Talk) 11:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98 Wouldn't it be redundant to have that box in the detailed results section as well as the infobox?

If we look at other sports I've mentioned and some others like Diving, Snowboarding, Rhythmic Gymnastics, Artistic Gymnastics, then while some of these have scores and PBs in the results section, none of them have them in infobox. I think this is a good standard, but of course open to discussion.

We could also find a way to make it more concise while retaining it in the infobox. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

There's lots of stuff that's redundant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 11:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

First of all, I am very happy about the suggestions to shorten the infobox! It is long overdue to do some clean-up. Here are my thoughts:

• Coaches: I would take a look at how many coaches the skater had in total. If it's a long list, then I would move them to the article body. However, if it's just 4–5 coaches that can be easily listed in the infobox like in Hanyu's case, then I don't think it's necessary to give them a separate section in the article.
  Note: Hanyu's biography currently has a prose section about his coaches and choreographers, but we try to merge its content into the career summary to shorten the article and remove duplicate info.
• Choreographers: Since they are already listed in the program table, there is no need to list them elsewhere in the article body. For the infobox, I have two suggestions and I would be fine with both:
  (a) We remove the choreographers from the infobox altogether.
  (b) For active skaters, we list the current choreographers. For retired skaters, we list the main choreographers with a link to the full list like we did for Hanyu.
• Standings and season's bests: I fully agree that the old lists were too long, so I already tried to make them more compact with this new table template: {{Figure skating WS and SB}}. However, I also support the idea to only mention the highest world standing position (with the number of seasons) and remove the rest altogether.
• Personal bests: I think, they are an important info in figure skating, so they can stay in the infobox. The infobox should give a compact summary of the person, so it's natural that it's filled with redundant info.

Yeah, that should be it. If you have any questions, please ping me. Henni147 (talk) 12:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147

• I have to disagree with the Coaches suggestion, because it would make the infoboxes non-uniform. Some will have few coaches, some more. It also makes it much more dependent on the editors' judgment, and it's not going to work out each time. A steady guideline would be better, so I stand by my suggestion of keeping "current coach" for active skaters, "final coach" for retired skaters, and the rest going to a separate section (along with seasons list/timeline if available).
• I vote to remove choreographers altogether, and not mentioning them outside the programs section, unless the article's completion demands it. (That's 4 votes for removing choreographers from infobox and leaving them in the programs section so far, just one more needed)
• I have a thought about WS, we can just add them in the pre-existing detailed results table after the season is concluded. So basically, the orange subtitle containing the current season will be filled with the WS after the season is over. Just an idea, but as long as we remove the WS from the infobox, I'm fine with that. (that's 4 votes for removing WS progression from infobox and leaving it at peak WS so far, just one more needed)
• OK, let's leave PBs in infobox. (that's 2 opposes so this proposal is failed)Editor120918756 (talk) 13:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@FigureskatingfanCan you follow this discussion, and let us all know which proposals will be passed at the end of the 7 day period, and who can go edit the infoboxes? Editor120918756 (talk) 07:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, yes of course. We have until 9/25. You may have to ping me to remind me. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan OK, this ends in around 1.5 hours from now. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, thanks for the ping. Hopefully, I will get this right as I go through the discussion. Please let me know if this is correct; then I will close the voting.

Proposal:

1. Only have current coach and choreographer for skaters presently skating in infobox.

2. Have final coach for retired skaters infobox.

3. Peak WS in infobox, chronological WS progression in Detailed results section.

This proposal has passed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan 1 should be current coach in infobox, no choreographer for any skater outside programs section, unless the article's completion demands it.

The other two are correct.

Yes, the proposal is passed. Editor120918756 (talk) 03:16, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@FigureskatingfanAlso, who will go and make the new infobox? If you give me permission, I can familiarize myself with the process and do it. Editor120918756 (talk) 04:28, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, please go ahead, you have MY permission. ;) And thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

World standings in results section

@Figureskatingfan and Editor120918756: Sorry, I'm late to the discussion, but I'd like to mention something regarding the world standings. The disadvantages of a separate table in the detailed results section would be:

1. The table would require an additional template, and some articles have already reached the upper template limit.
2. There would be lots of empty space around the table, which is not well received in FAC reviews.
3. For skaters like Hanyu and Chen, whose detailed results have been moved to a separate career achievements page, the world standings would no longer be available in the main bios.

Suggestion: How about adding an additional line to the competitive highlights table with the world standing for each season? That would be a compact and economical solution. I can create a sample, so that you can see how it looks like. Henni147 (talk) 10:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I am willing to see it, but there can be other suggestions:

• make a new section so we can type up the yearly progression
• omit the yearly progression altogether (I'm in favour of that, most sports don't)

Editor120918756 (talk) 10:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: I oppose to create a separate section for world standings, which would make the table of contents unnecessarily long. Here is my suggestion to present the season end world standings in the competitive highlights table [update: obsolete sample template removed].

I think, this is the most economic solution because the seasons are listed here anyways and the source code for the world standings would be very short as well. It also has the advantage that you can directly compare the world standing with the competition results for each season, so the information has some context.

To sum it up: I would either go with the solution in the example above or omit the chronological world standings by season altogether. Any extra table would just blow up the article in size. Henni147 (talk) 10:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think there's a point in doing this, especially with the competitive highlights tables that are being split into multiple parts now. I strongly recommend dropping WS progression altogether. We are already adding the peak WS along with the season(s) where it occurred mentioned, which is sufficient. Editor120918756 (talk) 15:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Alright. I support your proposal to drop the world standings altogether. Henni147 (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Infobox update

Personal information
Full name	Full name
Native name	Native name
Alternative names	Name 1, Name 2, ...
Born	Date, place
Died	Date, place
Hometown	Hometown
Height	Height
Figure skating career
Country	Canada France (2008–2010)
Discipline	Ice dance Men's singles (2008–2010)
Partner	Current partner Partner 2 (2012–2016) Partner 1 (2010–2012)
Coach	Current coach or team
Skating club	Current club, location
Began skating	2004
Competitive	2008–2018
Professional	2018–2023
Retired	August 5, 2023
Current WS	7th
Highest WS	2nd (2014–2016)
ISU personal best scores
Men's single skating
Total	300.21 2009–10 Grand Prix Final
Short program	100.99 2009–10 Grand Prix Final
Free skating	210.01 2010 World Championships
Ice dance
Total	200.21 2014–15 Grand Prix Final
Short dance	70.99 2014–15 Grand Prix Final
Free dance	130.01 2016 World Championships
Medal templates

@Editor120918756: I'd like to clarify all infobox changes here again before we update the template. Note: Obsolete parameters will be kept for the time being, so that editors have enough time to update all infoboxes. It would be odd if the infobox became half-empty for skaters who are no longer competing.

Already passed:

1. Merge all coach parameters to Coach (or coaching team) and list only the last one.
2. Remove all choreographer parameters.
3. Change world standings to Highest world standing with the period. (Tennis uses the term "highest" as well.)

Suggestions:

1. Remove the season's bests rankings altogether.
   There is no plausible reason why the full SB list should stay, when the WS list is going to be removed.
2. Merge the skating club and training locations, using the format "skating club, location".
   If a skater has multiple training locations in a season, only the main club should be listed in the infobox, the rest in the article body if relevant.
3. Remove all former parameters (merging important info into the respective current parameter with a time period if needed).

Henni147 (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Are we also getting rid of former training clubs/locations? If these things are also included in the prose, they really aren’t needed in the infobox. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:07, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I also recommend the world standing be written with an ordinal (ie. 5th v. 5). Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Agree about the ordinal for the peak WS. Thank you very much for pointing that out. I support your suggestion to remove all those "former" parameters, so I added it to the suggestion list above. Henni147 (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree with suggestions. Editor120918756 (talk) 15:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Great. To make sure that we are all on the same page, I added a sample infobox above to show how the shortened section would look like. I think, it's nice to have the countries and partners listed with dates in chronological order, using one bundled parameter. That keeps the infobox short and compact. However, if you feel that it's better to have the former country and partner parameters separated, I am fine with that, too. Henni147 (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Could you make one with all details, like name, native name, date/place of birth, height which all seem necessary details (that even if mentioned elsewhere, are definitely infobox material)? Just so we can see what all's remaining. Then we can move forward. But this is looking good to me. @Henni147 Editor120918756 (talk) 17:22, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I can do that. Good idea ;) Henni147 (talk) 17:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

And no, this looks neat, no need to separate former country and partner IMO.

I think what we should do is agree upon whether latest partner/country comes at the top of the list or not. @Henni147 Editor120918756 (talk) 17:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: So this is what the full infobox would look like, playing around with the extreme case that a skater switches disciplines as well. I think, it makes sense to separate the personal information and skating career and place country/partner at the top of the skating section. What do you think about this solution? Henni147 (talk) 18:35, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Editor120918756 (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Awesome. Then I will adjust the sandbox and documentation page for the infobox exactly like this ;) Henni147 (talk) 18:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

From MOS:FLAGINFOBOX: "Examples of acceptable exceptions include... infoboxes for international competitions such as the FIFA World Cup or Olympic Games, or to list the national flag icon of an athlete who competes in competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport." Emphasis was mine; I believe flags are appropriate in the case of these infoboxes. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:03, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Which is why I reverted the removal. It depends on the sport. I know in tennis, Olympics, and auto racing, the flags are prominent in all events. Not as sure with figure skating in events like World Championships and Four Corners. Though in these results of Four Corners they are there. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I know, I saw your reversion, and wanted to post the actual text from the policy in case there were additional concerns. It's sometimes easy to miss edit summaries, though I did appreciate yours. Any international skating events are like the Olympics in terms of flag representation. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) and Bgsu98: Thank you very much for the clarification! When I updated the template documentation, I noticed a warning that explicitely asked NOT to use the {{flagcountry}} template for the country parameter, which surprised me too. Well, whatever. Now I changed the entry in the documentation as well. Henni147 (talk) 09:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

More updates:

• I requested to add new parameters for PB scores in the rhythm dance segment in ice dance. It's odd to keep it as "short dance" for results after 2018.
• A fellow user on X/Twitter made a very good point about the coach info. In case of retired skaters like Yuna Kim, it's odd to list Shin Hea-sook as the only coach and omit Brian Orser for example. Being the last coach of a skater doesn't make you encyclopedically more important or notable than others.
• So the suggestion is to only list the current coach or team for active skaters and add a chronological list of main skating clubs with the period in parentheses for all skaters. I think that is a very reasonable solution, what do you think?

Henni147 (talk) 10:15, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147

We are already adding the coaches to a different section in the article, which we discussed and agreed upon earlier. I do not agree with this suggestion, when the point is to reduce the length of the infobox.

If you want, we can pass a motion to omit coach altogether for retired skaters. But I strongly disagree with your suggestion.

I don't see why Kim's coaching with Orser is more important than with Shin, for the record, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Editor120918756 (talk) 15:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

No, if these coaches are listed in the prose section of the article, they do not all have to be listed in the infobox. It's already overly bloated as it is. Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:10, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment - since I am closer to these infoboxes at tennis project I have three questions for the skating infobox. While I understand where a US president would need a spouse name in their infobox, why would you include one with a figure skater? It seems more trivial than important enough for an infobox... and you list multiple spouses if they had any. It seems that should be well taken care of in a personal section of prose since the infobox is supposed to contain the very tip-top important info. That's just an observation. Next, isn't the full name (if different than the name above the infobox) more important than the native name? We list it above any native spelling at tennis project. The last thing is with country represented. Shouldn't it be in current country downward? It seems like we would want the country they represent today top and foremost. I guess that would probably go for the discipline also. Just some thoughts. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:50, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Listing spouses in the infobox seems silly, especially if it's covered in the article's section on personal life. Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:11, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) I've brought up the country up or down thing (along with partner) earlier - I have to agree with you on there.

I also agree with removing things like spouse, and rearranging names as you suggest.

One more thing, I saw a few isuresults pages, none of them seem to separate "hometown" from "residence". Do we need two separate entries? It can be mentioned in personal life (if it exists), but usually a competing skater will just live in the city their club/coach is situated in, making the information complete. Editor120918756 (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

While I love to watch figure skating and i only dabble here, I'm not as converse with all your Project's compromises and agreements, so I don't want to overstep my knowledge here. If you look at the tennis page of someone like Iga Świątek we give a residence and a born place. But a lot of time where they are born is nowhere near where the reside, or even the country they play for. When you look at Bradie Tennell you also have a "hometown." To me that's pretty trivial for an infobox, but that's me. When you look at Tennell's ISU results they show her hometown, so I'm guessing that's why you have it here. Remember that the article itself is a highlight bio of a skaters career, the prose where all the sources should be. To that we add a lead section of highlights of the prose... usually no sources are required here because everything should already be sourced in the prose below. Then we have an infobox, again a highlight of prose, but of the stats already found in prose and already sourced in prose. My understanding is there should be nothing in the lead or infobox that you can't find in the main body. In tennis we show their current coach (or coaches) but try to make sure there is a section in the main body that lists all their past coaches. That keeps the infobox from getting out of hand...which they sadly often do anyways. When I look at Bradie Tennell current infobox what stands out as a non-highlight in the infobox would be: Former skating clubs and former training locations. Those are good for prose but not so much infobox. Also her world standings and season bests. To me those should be in a chart after the prose and in the infobox you would have a "current world standing" with date, and a "Highest world standing" with date first achieved. Some of that has been addressed in the discussion here.

Infobox, the most important things for the average reader. More technical aspects placed in charts below prose, and super trivial things mentioned in prose but with a link so the super skating fan can click and see those tiny details. I can say we don't always achieve that at Tennis project either, so perhaps I'm being too idealistic. I rarely edit skating bios (usually only vandalism), so I'm mentioning these things as a fan, a reader, and a fellow sports editor (mostly tennis). Good luck to all the team here at the Figure Skating Project. Remember it's a team and it's best to leave no one unhappy... compromise, compromise, compromise, since you don't want mad editors... you want enthusiastic editors and a growing project. Good luck to all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:22, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I think we have already reached an agreement above that those "former" everythings (coaches, clubs, etc.) will be removed from the infoboxes, leaving only what's current, or in the case of retired skaters, what was the last. Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:26, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. I can agree that hometown as well as residence are irrelevant in a sports infobox. I have to agree with training club being left in, because the skaters I work on intensively don't mention those elsewhere, but the "former" everything can be omitted or pasted into prose, which we've passed. Editor120918756 (talk) 06:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98, Fyunck(click), and Editor120918756: First of all, thank you very much for your detailed input everyone! I have updated the sample infobox above and tried to summarize all changes that should be made:

1. Flip full name and native name.
2. Merge hometown and residence to (current) residence (2a) or hometown (2b) or remove both (2c)?
3. Remove spouse.
4. Revert the order for country, discipline, and partner (last one named first).
5. Remove coach AND skating club for pro/retired skaters altogether (5a) or not (5b)?
6. Add current world standing for active skaters.
7. Add a chronological list/table with period–club/location–coaches in the stats part of the article (7a) or not (7b)?
   If yes, where should that table or list be placed?

Personally, I would vote for (2a) and (5a). I'm neutral regarding no. 7. Henni147 (talk) 11:48, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I think that sample infobox looks good! Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I would go with (2b) because that’s set and will not change. It’s difficult to keep track of where everyone currently lives, especially if they’re retired and out of the public eye. I would go with (5a), or just what was true upon retirement. I would go with (7b). A table is not necessary; that information can be included in the prose. Many articles already state that so-and-so moved and took on a new coach in the chronological section of the prose. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I go with 2b, 5a, and 7b as well. We'd agreed before to add coaches to prose. Here's how Roger Federer's does it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer#Coaches Editor120918756 (talk) 13:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick replies! Yes, your argument for hometown makes totally sense. I changed the parameter in the sample above. I also agree that the info about club and coaches can be included in the prose. So there is no need to list them elsewhere. Then I will forward it like this to the template talk page. Henni147 (talk) 13:21, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Let us know when the infobox changes are implemented. :) Editor120918756 (talk) 14:07, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and if you or someone else can make a new section with all the new 'rules' that we're going to have to keep up with after this, that'd be great. I think it's got confusing for me, and I 100% think it's going to be confusing for someone who's not been in this discussion. Editor120918756 (talk) 14:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, the current template lists "home town" as two words when I believe "hometown" (one word) is more appropriate. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Yes, I've already changed that one to hometown as one word. Thank you very much!

@Editor120918756: I will compile all changes after implementation here and also update the documentation page of the infobox template with all important information. Henni147 (talk) 14:24, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Medal tables in infobox

@Editor120918756 and Bgsu98: Again, thank you very much for your great suggestions and help with the infobox update! The template seems to work smoothlessly. There were no issues with the first five biography articles that I updated.

Yuzuru Hanyu

Medal record Event 1st 2nd 3rd Olympic Games 2 0 0 World Championships 2 3 2 Four Continents Championships 1 3 0 Grand Prix Final 4 2 0 World Junior Championships 1 0 0 Junior Grand Prix Final 1 0 0 World Team Trophy 1 0 2 Total 12 8 4 Medal list Olympic Games 2014 Sochi Singles 2018 Pyeongchang Singles World Championships 2014 Saitama Singles 2017 Helsinki Singles 2015 Shanghai Singles 2016 Boston Singles 2019 Saitama Singles 2012 Nice Singles 2021 Stockholm Singles Four Continents Championships 2020 Seoul Singles 2011 Taipei Singles 2013 Osaka Singles 2017 Gangneung Singles Grand Prix Final 2013–14 Fukuoka Singles 2014–15 Barcelona Singles 2015–16 Barcelona Singles 2016–17 Marseille Singles 2012–13 Sochi Singles 2019–20 Torino Singles World Junior Championships 2010 The Hague Singles Junior Grand Prix Final 2009–10 Tokyo Singles World Team Trophy 2017 Tokyo Team 2015 Tokyo Team 2021 Osaka Team

I have some suggestions regarding the medal templates:

1. To keep the medal section at reasonable length, only add medals for Super Slam events (Olympics, Sr/Jr Worlds, Euros/4Conts, Sr/Jr GPF) and maybe the World Team Trophy as shown on the right.
2. Add the {{MedalCount}} table only if the total number of medals in the infobox is minimum 10 (otherwise the table just doubles the medal section in length with little value).
3. For 9 or less medals, set the medal list as expanded. For 10 or more medals, collapse the full list or use the mixed format shown on the right (medal count expanded, medal list collapsed).
4. Add {{MedalCountry}} and {{MedalSport}} to the medal list only if they indicate notable changes (see this example). Otherwise it's redundant info, since country and discipline are already added as parameters on top of the skating career section.
5. For the {{MedalGold}}/{{MedalSilver}}/{{MedalBronze}} templates, use the shortened discipline names Singles, Pairs, Ice dance, and Team. The terms Men's singles or Women's singles are very bulky (see Shoma Uno for example).

What do you think about these suggestions? Henni147 (talk) 14:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it looks good, and I agree about reducing the category to just “singles”. Until you have a skater who competes in one singles category and then switches to the other, it’s unnecessary.

I might suggest adding the National Championships of the skater’s home country, because it is still a big deal, but no other National or international competitions. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Thank you very much for your quick reply! Yes, I was thinking about Nationals, too. However, there are many cases where skaters have won more than 10 medals at Nationals. This goes especially for famous skaters from smaller feds with little competition like Javier Fernández, Carolina Kostner, or Stéphane Lambiel. This shouldn't deminish their accomplishment, but adding Nationals would easily double their already very long medal lists in length. And we need to consider that the list cannot be collapsed in Wikipedia's mobile view (so the Infobox would be endlessly long in that version). That's why I suggest to only mention Nationals in the result sections of the article. Henni147 (talk) 14:35, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

My thinking is that when you go to someplace like Stars on Ice, they will identify a skater as “Olympic gold medalist”, “World silver medalist”, or “U.S. National Champion”. Those other competitions just aren’t well-known outside the figure skating community. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:39, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

This is true, indeed. However, if we add Nationals, then we need to drop other competitions. Imagine if we added the 9 National medals to Hanyu's list on the right (33 medals in total). Readers in mobile view would need to scroll down for ages, until they can start reading the main article below the infobox.

Update: Just checked other Olympic sports like swimming or speed skating, and none of them lists National medals in the infobox. Even if Nationals are considered important by announcers or the media, I would still prefer to limit the infobox to main international, ISU-sanctioned events.Henni147 (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

No big deal. 😀 Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the removal of Asian (Winter) Games medals. These events are highly publicized and are of high importance to Asian athletes. Korean men winning an Asian Games event means they are exempt from enlisting, just as an example.

I am fine with removing National medals, we already don't list them anyway. Editor120918756 (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Just checked some medal records for Asian Winter Games. It's not that many medals, so yes, I'm fine with adding those. I have also seen infoboxes where medals from the Youth Olympics or Winter Universiade are listed, including team events. How about those? Generally, I'm not against adding that many medals, but some infoboxes have really blown up in length. Henni147 (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

FYI, the Winter Universiade has a new name: FISU World University Games. Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

How is it done in other sports? That can be a point of reference. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I am going to drop Zou Jingyuan again for you. Look at his medal table and the "bio" part of his infobox. If needed, we can shave more things off the bio part. That's my suggestion. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

To reiterate what I'd said in an earlier discussion, I'm not sure I 'need' a personal best score table in the infobox. I would say that's giving me less information than a medal tally. Other scored sports don't carry as much info.

Dina Averina

Eileen Gu

Su Yiming

Keegan Palmer

We are already posting score info in detailed results, and in some cases we are mentioning scores during the rest of the prose if it was noteworthy. I genuinely do not see the point of including personal bests in the infobox. That's my input here. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan Tagging you here just in case it goes to a vote again. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: I bundle all comments here:

1. Yes, the current_WS parameter can be removed. For highest_WS, do we add the full time period or only the first date/year (as done in tennis)? I am fine with both solutions.
2. Retrospectively, I agree to remove the personal bests from the infobox, since they are listed in the detailed results already.
3. About the medal lists: my main request is to keep the list at reasonable length. 30 rows should be the absolute upper limit, competition headers included. In Wikipedia's deskop view the medal list can be collapsed, but in mobile view this function is disabled. This means, on narrow smartphone screens you need to scroll down the full expanded infobox to get to the lead section of the article, which is really odd because approx. 65% of readers use that version. Henni147 (talk) 08:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147

Looking at your medal table suggestions again:

1. Apart from Asian Games, I have no qualms I guess. I don't really mind one way or the other about Universiade, not sure how important those are. If we include Asian Games apart from Career Slam medals, I'm good to go (would probably also push for YOG though).

2. Sounds reasonable agree

3. Reasonable - would go with collapsing medal list, keeping medal count unfurled.

4. Reasonable, but I think we need to scour through other sports to see how they do it.

5. Agree. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:02, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147

1. I think we can add full time period for WS, it won't take too much space?

2. Let's wait for the voting. Currently, two agrees.

3. No, I agree it's too large currently, and we don't need as many as Dina Averina's. If I were at all interested in editing RG, I would suggest trimming those. But I think for us, we've already specifically agreed for PB inclusion elsewhere, and it's really not done in any other scored sport from what I can tell, so that's definitely going to be my opinion on that. They're easy to remove given their inclusion elsewhere, especially because we fs fans have been much more methodical and rigorous with our pages than other sports fans anyway! ;) (added my opinion on medals in a prior reply) Editor120918756 (talk) 09:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

By time period, I mean something like what you did for Hanyu btw, it looks perfectly okay to me? I prefer that to tennis, but we can take it to vote as well if that's better. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:27, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756:

• Yes, I also think it's nice to have the full period for the highest WS. It makes a difference if a skater was only ranked 1st for one season or five like Hanyu. If there are interruptions, we can use the format (2010–2012, 2014).
• Agree, if there are no opposes, let's exclude personal bests.
• The last remaining question is the medal list. Which events shall be included there and which not. I checked Shoma Uno's infobox among others, which currently has 34 rows (10 comp. headers) and may blow up to over 40 rows until Milan 2026. This is definitely too long for mobile view. With 31 rows (7 comp. headers), Hanyu's list is very long as well. Henni147 (talk) 11:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 Looking at that makes me think you should remove WTT. It might also be better to remove the team event from YOG? It takes up several additional slots just because the teams are mixed-NOC. And let's not put in the Universiade, we don't need more.

If you then separate the medal tally from medal list and collapse the medal list, it will make it much more manageable for them. My suggestions. Editor120918756 (talk) 07:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's my thought as well. Remove team event results (maybe except of Olympic team) and Universiade/University Games. However, before finalizing the deicision, we may wait for other opinions. Henni147 (talk) 09:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

We should keep Olympic team results, but not YOG. JMO. Yes let's wait for more opinions. @Bgsu98@Figureskatingfan Editor120918756 (talk) 07:52, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

My opinion: I think that we should keep Olympic team events, but not YOG and university games. I also agree with Ed's suggestion to collapse the medal list. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:36, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan We also had a discussion for removing PBs from the infobox, and are currently in the voting phase. Please let us know your vote! Editor120918756 (talk) 18:33, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh sorry about that, mate! Yes I agree that we should remove PBs from the infobox. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:36, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Summary of all latest changes on skater biographies

The template documentation has been updated with the latest standards now. The template has been adapted on the biographies of Yuzuru Hanyu, Tara Lipinski, Johnny Weir, Rika Kihira, and Daisuke Takahashi already. All related votings and discussions can be found here in the archives. Henni147 (talk) 08:52, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I want to ask how you use current_WS? It is updated throughout the skating season. If you're talking about end-season rankings, then I wouldn't call it "current WS" (and I also just plain wouldn't display it, which we can take to a vote - I think peak WS is sufficient) Editor120918756 (talk) 17:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox

Infobox figure skater
Full name	Full name
Native name	Native name
Other names	Name 1, Name 2, ...
Born	Date, place
Died	Date, place
Hometown	Hometown
Height	Height
Figure skating career
Country	Canada France (2008–2010)
Discipline	Ice dance Men's singles (2008–2010)
Partner	Current partner Partner 2 (2012–2016) Partner 1 (2010–2012)
Coach	Current coach or team
Skating club	Current club, location
Began skating	2004
Competitive	2008–2018
Professional	2019–2023
Retired	August 5, 2023
Current WS	7th
Highest WS	2nd (2014–2016)
ISU personal best scores
Men's singles
Total	300.21 (HR) 2009–10 Grand Prix Final
Short program	100.99 2009–10 Grand Prix Final
Free skating	210.01 (HR) 2010 World Championships
Ice dance
Total	200.21 (WR) 2018–19 Grand Prix Final
Short dance	70.99 2018–19 Grand Prix Final
Free dance	130.01 2018 NHK Trophy
Medal templates

New parameters

• discipline: select between Men's singles, Women's singles, Pair skating, and Ice dance. If a skater has changed disciplines, they get listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• years_competitive: period using the format 2010–2018 or 2010–present with an en dash (not a hyphen).
• years_professional: period using the format 2010–2018 or 2010–present.
• current_WS: current world standing for ACTIVE skater only, using an ordinal number (e.g. 1st).
• highest_WS: highest career world standing, using the format 1st (2018–2019).
• RD_score + RD_date: personal best score in the rhythm dance segment in ice dance.
• module: slot to add multiple PB tables for skaters who competed in different disciplines (see example on the right).

Important content changes

• hometown: should only be included if different from birthplace.
• coach: the CURRENT coach or team gets listed for ACTIVE skaters only.
• skating club: the CURRENT main skating club gets listed for ACTIVE skaters only, using the format "skating club, location".
• retired: only to be used for skaters who retired from skating ALTOGETHER, both competitive AND professional level, naming the year or official announcement date (e.g. "June 25, 2023" for Johnny Weir).
• In the infobox, only the personal bests of ONE judging system should be listed, namely the one with the career best (total) score. The rest should be listed in the detailed results section, using the template {{Figure skating personal bests}}.

Obsolete parameters that will no longer be displayed

• residence: If the residence of a skater is notably different from the birth place or hometown, that information should be mentioned in the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• spouse: Spouses should be mentioned in the "private life" section, supported by RELIABLE secondary sources (no tabloids).
• formercountry: to be merged into the country parameter, listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• formerpartner: to be merged into the partner parameter, listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• formercoach: to be moved to the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• (former)choreographer: to be added to program list, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• traininglocations: to be merged into the skating club parameter, using the format "skating club, location".
• former skating club + formertraininglocations: to be moved to the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• Full world standing and season's best lists are no longer included on a skater's biography page at all. The template {{Figure skating WS and SB}} has become obsolete as well.

Statistics sections

• Programs: use the new template {{Figure skating program list}} and module {{FS program}}.
• Competitive highlights: use the new template {{Figure skating competitive highlights}} and module {{FS placements}}.
• Detailed results: use the new templates {{Figure skating personal bests}} and {{Figure skating detailed results}}.

Latest changes on skater infoboxes

These are the additional things we have agreed upon:

• No Personal Bests in infobox (PBs already included in detailed results)
• Add the medal count table only if the number of medals is minimum 10
• Remove Universiade medals
• Remove YOG team medals
• Remove WTT medals
• Collapse the medal list if medal count table is present, otherwise medal list remains unfurled (for 9 or less medals)
• Add full time period for highest WS
• For the {{MedalGold}}/{{MedalSilver}}/{{MedalBronze}} templates, use the shortened discipline names Singles, Pairs, Ice dance, and Team.

@Henni147 Voting's up, so here's the further summary for infobox changes. Let me know if I've missed anything. I think you can go ahead and do your magic after that haha. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Example

Event Olympic Games 2 0 0 World Championships 2 3 2 Four Continents Championships 1 3 0 Grand Prix Final 4 2 0 World Junior Championships 1 0 0 Junior Grand Prix Final 1 0 0 Medal list Olympic Games 2014 Sochi Singles 2018 Pyeongchang Singles World Championships 2014 Saitama Singles 2017 Helsinki Singles 2015 Shanghai Singles 2016 Boston Singles 2019 Saitama Singles 2012 Nice Singles 2021 Stockholm Singles Four Continents Championships 2020 Seoul Singles 2011 Taipei Singles 2013 Osaka Singles 2017 Gangneung Singles Grand Prix Final 2013–14 Fukuoka Singles 2014–15 Barcelona Singles 2015–16 Barcelona Singles 2016–17 Marseille Singles 2012–13 Sochi Singles 2019–20 Turin Singles World Junior Championships 2010 The Hague Singles Junior Grand Prix Final 2009–10 Tokyo Singles

@Editor120918756: Thank you very much for compiling the list! Yes, that should be mostly it. I think, the "current_WS" parameter should be removed, too.

I created a new template to make the medal lists in skaters' infoboxes uniform in accordance with the latest decisions that we made here. In this template, we no longer need to link competitions and disciplines manually, which makes the markup code significantly shorter and much easier to handle. The extension/collapsing and calculations in the Total row are done automatically as well. I adjusted the line height a bit, so that the displayed list of medals is somewhat shorter than before. Asian Games and Youth Olympics can be listed, too. Here is an example code:

Example

{{Figure skating infobox medals |medalcount=yes |OGg=2 |WCg=2 |WCs=3 |WCb=2 |4CCg=1|4CCs=3 |GPFg=4|GPFs=2 |JWCg=1 |JGPFg=1 |OG={{FS medal|g|OG|2014|Sochi|m}} {{FS medal|g|OG|2018|Pyeongchang|m}} |WC={{FS medal|g|WC|2014|Saitama|m}} {{FS medal|g|WC|2017|Helsinki|m}} {{FS medal|s|WC|2015|Shanghai|m}} {{FS medal|s|WC|2016|Boston|m}} {{FS medal|s|WC|2019|Saitama|m}} {{FS medal|b|WC|2012|Nice|m}} {{FS medal|b|WC|2021|Stockholm|m}} |4CC={{FS medal|g|4CC|2020|Seoul|m}} {{FS medal|s|4CC|2011|Taipei|m}} {{FS medal|s|4CC|2013|Osaka|m}} {{FS medal|s|4CC|2017|Gangneung|m}} |GPF={{FS medal|g|GPF|2013–14|Fukuoka|m}} {{FS medal|g|GPF|2014–15|Barcelona|m}} {{FS medal|g|GPF|2015–16|Barcelona|m}} {{FS medal|g|GPF|2016–17|Marseille|m}} {{FS medal|s|GPF|2012–13|Sochi|m}} {{FS medal|s|GPF|2019–20|Turin|m}} |JWC={{FS medal|g|JWC|2010|The Hague|m}} |JGPF={{FS medal|g|GPF|2009–10|Tokyo|m}} }}

Since we have to revamp all infoboxes anyways, I think it's a good occasion to add this template as well. It will heavily reduce the article size for skaters with many medals. Henni147 (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes remove current_WS! I thought we already had. @Henni147

That looks great to me! Editor120918756 (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

BTW, one more suggestion is that in the medal list, we can remove the mention of "singles" or "team" entirely?

For example, with Uno as you brought up, we are already mentioning he's men's singles earlier. So we don't need to mention he won something as a singles' athlete again. Instead, we can modify "2022 Beijing" for him to "2022 Beijing (Team)" for him once. This makes much more sense to me, because unlike AG, a skater (usually) only ever competes in one discipline, whether in the individuals or team. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

And I would place the individual event medals over team events in order of importance, but I get that it's chronological currently. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: On Wikipedia, the three-column listing of medals is the common format, and that should be uniform across all sports articles. The main purpose of the discipline column is to link the article about the specific event if it exists like 2018 Winter Olympics – Men's singles. This is currently the case for the Olympics, Youth Olympics, and Asian Games. It is possible that this system will later be adapted for other main intl. competitions as well. So I would keep the layout as it currently is and update the template with new automatic links in the future. Henni147 (talk) 11:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah OK, got you. Thanks. Editor120918756 (talk) 12:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)