Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation/Archive 24

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Archive 24

Improper flaps

I ran into this article while doing NPP, and I'm not sure how to handle it. I don't think this is a notable concept in and of itself, but I'm at a loss as to where to move the information or where to redirect the title. I think it's at least a plausible redirect. Trains are my thing more than planes, so I was hoping you folks would have ideas. Please ping me on reply as I don't watch this page. Thanks. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

IMO this article Improper flaps should not exist at all, it can easily be integrated in the main "Flaps" article. Jan olieslagers (talk) 15:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Could be redirected to Preflight checklist as flaps is a check list item if they are a feature of the a/c type. Related but I couldn't find it here is the 'config (configuration) warning system' that more complicated aircraft generally have, horns and lights flashing etc if the throttles are advanced beyond a certain percentage with no flaps set. Landing gear warnings are related (low throttle, land flap set, gear not down etc). Many sailplanes with retractable gear have an aural warning system that alerts the pilot that the airbrakes are open but the gear is up. An overview article could be created but the systems vary. This subject falls under airmanship. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest moving to a new subsection in Flap_(aeronautics)#Principles_of_operation, titled say "Improper flap settings". Preflight checklist, as suggested above, does not cover the landing scenario. This page can then be deleted, as it is the setting which are improper, not the flaps themselves, and we do not normally maintain redirects for arbitrary phrases. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The whole thing is very vague and also not a term used in aviation. Flaps/slats is a pre-landing checklist item for some aircraft, my own memorised check list has flaps but they are not used until final approach. It's akin to being in the wrong gear in a car, we don't have an article for that (hopefully!). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

... pre-landing AND pre-takeoff! Jan olieslagers (talk) 18:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Steelpillow, the information in this article seems like it would fit well there. Also Improper Flaps is not a common term in this way and I don't expect many people would be searching it. Therefore it would not meet the WP:POFR standard. KittyHawkFlyer (talk) 22:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Decided to nominate for deletion as I don't see any sourced content that can be merged elsewhere. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:41, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

FYI, the Improper flaps article was deleted on May 7. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Loitering munition

Loitering munition has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. CMD (talk) 01:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash#Requested move 19 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash#Requested move 19 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 19:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Ryanair Discussion

Hi all, I recently opened a discussion over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airlines regarding Ryanair, any feedback would be appreciated! VenFlyer98 (talk) 00:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Shivkar Bapuji Talpade and Vaimanika Shastra

Hi,

Coming here from these articles. They are about unverified or perhaps hoaxed/legendary claims of early attempts at aviation in India.

Would the Category:Aviation in India or Category:Aviation history of India then be apt here?

I have been told these cannot be added as such (perhaps due to WP:FRINGE concerns).

Please do let me know if these cats are appropriate for the article or otherwise which ones might be. Having no cats related to aviation in these articles deprives it from needed navigation. Afterall we do have Category:Pseudohistory under history (maybe a similar arrangement can be made for such aviation-related articles).

Thanks. Gotitbro (talk) 08:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Certainly not part of our main aviation coverage. We have an article on Claims to the first powered flight, but I am not sure if the Talpade nonsense has sufficient credibility. We also have an article on Aircraft in fiction; the Vaimanika Shastra might find a home in that space. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I was able to follow on from these to the relevant cats. :) Gotitbro (talk) 19:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Have also added internal links to the articles listed above. Gotitbro (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I've linked the first-flight article in the Vaimanika Shastra article. For what it's worth, I've previously contemplated creating an article called First flight claims considered to be implausible or something similar (discredited, nonsensical, balderdash?), but I discarded the idea because it doesn't seem encyclopedic, it's inherently subjective, and there would likely be ongoing WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE issues. Carguychris (talk) 21:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler#Requested move 23 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler#Requested move 23 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Schierbecker (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye#Requested move 23 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye#Requested move 23 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Schierbecker (talk) 22:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Northrop Grumman E-8 Joint STARS#Requested move 23 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Northrop Grumman E-8 Joint STARS#Requested move 23 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Schierbecker (talk) 22:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Flybe listed at Requested moves

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Aviation Safety Network Wikibase

Looking through the talk archives, I see ASN being touted as a reliable source pretty universally, and have treated it as such. Questions have been raised as to how reliable it is, in the Pan Am Flight 214 FAC (Source review section) as well as a recent AFD I saw (I can't remember which). I've noticed what seem to be some changes in the site, with accident articles being referred to as "wikibase articles". Looking at the page in question, I see "Yes, you can add accidents and incidents to the ASN WikiBase yourself! Or you can correct or update existing accidents. You can add any aviation accident or incident you like: general aviation, military, helicopters etc. As long as they are not covered in the main ASN Safety Database" and a red box warning "This information is added by users of ASN. ASN nor the Flight Safety Foundation are responsible for the completeness or correctness of this information." On the other hand, it says "Every entry or correction is being reviewed before it appears online." Is it time to reevaluate whether or not ASN is as reliable a source as we've been treating it? I know it is used heavily in a lot of articles here. RecycledPixels (talk) 15:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

To quote what I said at FAC: you need to evaluate each entry on its own merits. In the case of the report cited here, it's basically a dump from the CAB report. There's nothing controversial here so I don't see any reason to nit-pick about the reliability of ASN, but on the other hand, it probably makes more sense to just cite the underlying CAB report directly.

That last bit is the important part. ASN entries generally cite their sources, so it's almost always more useful to just cite the real source directly. The fact that ASN aggregated the information into a database doesn't make it any more or less reliable than the underlying source. RoySmith (talk) 22:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This recent ASN database entry is a good example of how you have to evaluate each entry on its own merits. It says, "... was destroyed following an inflight breakup". Contrast that with what an NTSB spokesperson says in this press briefing: "very indicative of an in-flight breakup". Of course the NTSB guy knows it was an in-flight breakup, but the NTSB is careful and exacting, so he's hedging on that until more data is in. Whoever wrote that statement in the ASN entry was willing to make what sounds like an authoritative statement based on their own evaluation of the primary sources available to them at the time. The bottom line is, ASN is a good tool for doing research, but I'd be really careful about blanket statements like "ASN is a WP:RS so we should believe anything it says". RoySmith (talk) 23:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

What's interesting to me about that Beechcraft Bonanza crash you just posted is the page looks quite a bit different from the ASN pages of old accidents that I've been looking at, such as this one. The Bonanza has a user-contributed warning box at the top, and a link that lets me directly edit the details that appear on the accident description. The 1963 Northwest Orient accident has neither one of those, even though both have similar-appearing URLs and both are identified as WikiBase articles. This Piper PA-22 accident that occurred on the same day as the Northwest Orient accident allows me to edit it and has the warning box, so it's not just the age. The difference is when I click on the "database" link at the top of ASN, I see an ASN Accident Database and a Wikibase. The 1963 Piper accident only shows up in the Wikibase, but the Northwest Orient accident shows up in both. RecycledPixels (talk) 00:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I took the liberty of adding 'Wikibase' to the title of this section to make it clear that this discussion is about the user-generated part of the ASN. The ASN editor-generated content instead ('Main database' or 'ASN accident database'), is arguably as reliable as The Aviation Herald, which we consider a RS I suppose. It looks as though the editable articles (the ones with the red box that warns that "This information is added by users of ASN." etc) are part of the Wikibase, while the non-editable ones are part of the Main DB, regardless of how the URL looks like.
In fact, if you take the URL of any ASN article, e.g. https://aviation-safety.net/asndb/333147, you can swap asndb with wikibase or vice-versa, and it will open the same page. The About section of the ASN [1] says that "The ASN Wikibase [...] contains descriptions of more than 258,000 accidents [...] as well as the accidents contained in the ASN accident database", which suggests that at some point the two databases were merged. Confusingly though, on the ASN website there seems to be no way of filtering a search for Main DB articles only, and the Main Database page [2] links to Wikibase articles as well. --Deeday-UK (talk) 11:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Indian Civil Aviation Airshow#Requested move 26 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Indian Civil Aviation Airshow#Requested move 26 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of preserved Boeing aircraft

This is to inform the members of this WikiProject, within the scope of which this article falls, that this article has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of preserved Boeing aircraft. –Noha307 (talk) 01:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye#Requested move 23 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye#Requested move 23 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Plane crash at Yanks Air Museum

A new section, documenting the fatal 15 June 2024 plane crash at Yanks Air Museum, has been added to that article. Help to expand that section, and to keep it up to date as more information becomes available, would be appreciated. Renerpho (talk) 22:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Drone redirects

FYI, drone redirects are being discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 24 -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 02:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

"Swarm Drone"

BOAC Flight 712

A discussion has been opened at talk:BOAC Flight 712#Photo in an attempt to settle an apparent dispute over which of two images to use. Please feel free to join the discussion. Mjroots (talk) 14:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Much ado about nothing :) ? There is even no need for any image. If I had to decide, I would go for the better quality picture, but I mostly consider the whole point very moot. Jan olieslagers (talk)

Ted Smith Aircraft Company / Ted Smith Aerostar Corporation

I've recently rewritten the Piper Aerostar article. Before the design was purchased by Piper, the aircraft was produced by the Ted Smith Aircraft Company and then the closely related Ted Smith Aerostar Corporation, which numerous sources diplomatically describe as having a "checkered" corporate history—a familiar story in aviation, company is created to produce an impressive new aircraft, but the company never figures out how to make money producing the aircraft, and the design is bought out by others. My questions: Did these two companies ever do anything notable outside of building the Aerostar? Do they warrant a standalone article, or is their history basically the same as the history of the aircraft itself? Carguychris (talk) 17:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

A quick web search suggests that the companies were absorbed with the Aerostar series. I'd say no, no separate company articles unless and until sufficient RS telling their own independent stories turns up. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Avia#Requested move 4 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Avia#Requested move 4 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 08:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Airlines of Australia navbox template on defunct airline articles

There is an ongoing discussion on whether defunct Australian airline articles should have the Template:Airlines of Australia navbox at Talk:Bonza# Airlines of Australia navigation box. Fork99 (talk) 07:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Airborne Interception radar#Requested move 1 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Airborne Interception radar#Requested move 1 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 03:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Template:Infobox aircraft occurrence: Should the summary parameter include causes?

I would like to start a discussion regarding the template infobox aircraft occurrence. The discussion is on whether the summary parameter should include the causes of an accident.

On 27 March 2023, user DonFB started a discussion on Template talk:Infobox aircraft occurrence to ask whether there was a guidance or consensus on whether to include the officially-determined cause of an accident in the Summary field of the Aircraft Occurrence infobox linking a discussion on Talk:Colgan Air Flight 3407#Accident cause.

Prior to any of these discussions, the official explanation for the summary parameter was to include a Brief factual summary of the occurrence.

The problem with that explanation was that it did not specify what should be included in the summary leaving the emphasis on "brief".

Another problem with the explanation is due to the fact that some accidents have much more complex causes which makes summarizing an accident more difficult which can, at times, make summaries no longer "brief" as some of them included multiple causes and contributing factors such as [3]. A lot of articles use(d) the term pilot error in their summaries which while may be correct is also an oversimplification of what actually caused that accident and what led to it. Decisions pilots make are usually influenced by multiple factors.

Following the discussion between users DonFB and Ahunt, user Deeday-UK expressed his opinion:

_{[...] I would go one step further and explicitly discourage editors from adding causes to infobox summaries. Air accidents are complex events most of the times; accident reports almost invariably list multiple causes and contributing factors, which are impossible to summarize in a few words while still maintaining a NPOV. 'Pilot error' is the best example: the all-time favourite cause among editors, often added on its own even when it's clearly not the only factor. In my view, a summary should:}

_{- First state what happened (e.g. that the aircraft crashed), which is often far from obvious, given article titles such as "XYZ Airlines Flight 123".} _{- Then briefly describe the circumstances (on approach, at night, on take-off etc).}

_{- Finally leave the causes for the article body, instead of cherry-picking some of them and trying to cram them into one line.}

_{In many cases, 'Controlled flight into terrain' is all that's needed for the infobox summary. The Colgan crash could do with Stalled on approach, crashed into house, and so on, keeping it simple, concise and neutral.}

Following this, without gaining an official consensus, user Deeday-UK changed the summary usage note [4] and added a hidden usage note to add in the infobox [5]. Following this, user Deeday-UK started editing numerous articles changing the summary while broadly stating: Trim summary per project consensus: summarize events and circumstances, leave the causes for the article body without actually gaining an official consensus.

The first time I became aware of this was when I removed the under investigation summary in the article 2018 Sapphire Aviation Bell UH-1 crash and replaced it with the term pilot error, [6]. My edit was soon reverted [7] without giving too much reason as to why. Following this, I reverted the edit performed [8] which was soon reverted by user Deeday-UK citing Trim summary per project consensus: summarize facts and circumstances, leave the causes for the article body [9]. I tried finding where this was discussed and found the template talk page in which I assumed that this was an official consensus, and with the template history displaying last edited in 2019, I assumed that the discussion must have been a follow-up to the decision while not actually realizing that I wasn't on the correct history page being on [10] instead of [11].

Just around a few months ago, I started editing the summaries of multiple articles to be consistent with the usage note when I was notified by user RecycledPixels, on the 9th of May on my talk page, that there wasn't an official consensus regarding the summary usage note and had consequently challenged and reverted both edits performed by user Deeday-UK on the template doc, also messaging user Deeday-UK on his talk page regarding his changes to multiple summaries [12].

So my question regarding this discussion is whether the summary parameter should include accident/incident causes and (if so,) how should the usage note be worded? Aviationwikiflight (talk) 11:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Leaving the summary blank would be missing out the 'what' and 'why' of Who what when where why, it would look odd if the summary is included in the lead section but not in the infobox. If I visit a blue linked accident article that I'm not familiar with I look for the precis and cause in the infobox, I would expect other readers to do the same. If the cause can't be easily determined from the accident report (if there is one) then perhaps use the talk page or project pages for advice/thoughts of others. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 11:59, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Nimbus, nobody is suggesting to leave summaries blank. I totally agree that they should contain the what. It is the why that is problematic, especially when it involves the quick and easy explanation of 'pilot error'.

There are indeed some clear-cut cases in which that is precisely what happened (e.g. the 2010 Alaska USAF C-17 crash: the report literally reads "the cause of the mishap was pilot error"). However, in the vast majority of cases, the causes and contributing factors are multiple and complex to explain. Try and summarize the causes of the Air France Flight 447 crash: the result will be either far too long for the infobox, or partial, incomplete, and therefore non-neutral. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Nobody suggested leaving summaries blank. I agree with including what happened but the why is more problematic.

An example that I gave was Pan Am Flight 799 and how the summary was way too long. The summary read:

Defective checklist, defective takeoff warning hardware, airline's ineffective implementation of Boeing's Service Bulletins, and stress caused by a rushed flight schedule.

The cause of the accident was a take-off performed with flaps retracted, leading to a loss of control. If we put that into a summary it would resemble something like: Loss of control on take-off following incorrect flap configuration.

A similar summary would maintain a neutral point of view while not citing any causes due to its complexity. By simply saying pilot error, the summary disregards other causes/factors involved and oversimplifies the causes.

The summary of West Caribbean Airways Flight 708,

Deep stall due to pilot error, a lack of crew resource management, and loss of situational awareness,

goes against the explanatory parameter note, stating that the summary should be brief and factual. This summary omits several contributing factors and issues from within West Caribbean Airways and engine icing. This summary does not maintain a neutral point of view as it disregards multiple factors that led to the accident taking place. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 15:32, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I've been somewhat of two minds in my thinking on this issue, which is probably reflected in some of my past comments.

It seems that either including or excluding a cause in the Summary can lead to controversy among editors. That is true even though my impression is that official findings of cause are rarely seen as controversial by the industry or public.* My preference, I have decided, is for the Summary to include rather than exclude the (probable) cause. It's a given that the public, our readers, want to know the cause of an accident, and if we're including a Summary, that's an appropriate place to put it, in addition, of course, to the main text. Yes, there can be multiple contributing factors, but I believe we are capable of briefly summarizing the two things of most interest to people glancing at an Infobox Summary at the top of an accident article: what and why.

Therefore, we can use "pilot error" or similar phrasing, but only if two things are true: 1) reliable secondary sources explicitly use such phrasing, and 2) the official report uses equivalent phrasing like "captain’s inappropriate response", "flight crew's failure" or "the captain's failure" (quoted from NTSB Colgan 3407 report). Quite possibly, the NTSB has never used "pilot error" in a report. My inference is that it and other official agencies wish to avoid that phrase due to sensitivities in business and political realms. The agencies instead circumlocute using a variety of equivalent terminology.

But policy tells us to use reliable secondary sources, not primary sources, as the main basis for articles. However, if a primary source (NTSB or BEA or other such agency) refers to a "failure" or "inappropriate", "improper" or "incorrect" action by a flight crew or crew member, it is reasonable to consider that information as support for our use of "pilot error"—if, and only if, reliable secondary sources use that phrase. If no secondary source uses "pilot error", then, to avoid OR or SYNTH, Wikipedia must not. But we are still free to use one of those alternative words (eg: failure, improper) in the Summary, if it's citable to RS.

I support the need for brevity in the Summary. I believe it can be achieved while including the two fundamentals of an accident: what happened and why.

Exceptions exist, like EgyptAir 990

DonFB (talk) 00:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with past discussions that the infobox summary should be a brief summary of the accident, that should include what happened and why. A summary of "crashed on takeoff" is not nearly as helpful to a reader as "crashed on takeoff due to low altitude wind shear". Understanding that it is intended to be an extremely brief summary, we are going to encounter issues where one or both aspects of that will be oversimplified with terms like "pilot error". The body of the article, ideally the first paragraph, will more effectively summarize the facts of the accident for a reader to gain a better understanding of what happened, and the rest of the article will dive deeply into all of the fine nuances. In a case where I, for example, might use the phrase "pilot error", another editor is free to come along and refine that summary to something they feel is more appropriate, like "aircraft damage from accidental slats deployment". If I'm following that article and I disagree, we can discuss it and work it out, or I can made another refinement to the statement, or we can invite others into the discussion to reach a consensus. If I agree that the revision is an improvement, great, nothing needs to be said. I don't think there needs to be a hard "don't include causes because we might get it wrong" rule here. RecycledPixels (talk) 15:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
So basically you are saying: it doesn't matter if the summary is oversimplified and potentially misleading, because the rest of the article will give the full picture. Well, no: many passing readers will never read beyond the infobox. The summary must obey WP:NPOV like anything else; if something in the summary makes it non-neutral (such as one or two cherry-picked causes among many, especially if apportioning blame) then such element must be removed from the summary.

Why don't we focus instead on the circumstances of an accident? Instead of "crashed on takeoff due to low altitude wind shear" (which attributes the crash to just one reason), we could say "crashed on takeoff in wind shear conditions", which meaningfully describes the event without ruling out other factors (e.g. that they were flying too slow). -- Deeday-UK (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I never said that it was ok for the infobox summary to be misleading. What I'm saying is that, given the previous consensus that the infobox summary should remain as brief as possible, that there are going to be tradeoffs in how comprehensive that brief infobox summary is going to be. Things are going to get oversimiplified, much as the "crashed on takeoff" part of that statement doesn't mention that the occupants of the aircraft were successfully evacuated moments before it burst into flames, resulting in only injuries and no fatalities, in the case of Aeroméxico Connect Flight 2431. It also doesn't mention that an unqualified pilot was flying the plane or that the air traffic controller failed to give the flight crew adequate warning of the change in weather conditions. That's an acceptable tradeoff, since all of that is covered in the article. I think the cause of the accident is at least as important as the description of the accident, so it needs to be included in that brief summary. If you don't want to deal with oversimplification, then we should strike the entire "be as brief as possible" part of the infobox summary instructions, which I'd also support to some extent, but that's a different conversation. RecycledPixels (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the more brief and consistent we can keep it, the better. Looking at the ATSB database of accident reports [13], the summaries of each tends to summarise occurrences short 2-3 word catergories such as: Control problems, collision with terrain, runway incursion, ground occurrence etc. Although this doesn't give the full context of the causes, it cam be combined with the "Damage to aircraft" (none, minor, substantial, destroyed) and "Highest injury level" (none, minor, serious, fatal) and a fourth datapoint like "Phase of flight" (Ground, takeoff, enroute, landing) - i believe the NTSB include these. These four things provide more than enough to understand the basic nature of the occurrence. Eg. An aircraft experienced control problems enroute which resulted in the aircraft being destroyed and fatal injuries. In terms of the "why", at infobox level we are only looking to explain why the aircraft crashed (control was lost), and not why control was lost - that is another level of detail that is highly contextual, thus better explained in the lede simce aircraft accidents are nearly always complex, multifactorial chains of events. I also note this characterisation is far more WP:NPOV than relying on characterisations in secondary sources, which even when that are WP:RS often cover aircraft accidents in a sensationalised way by reporters who have limited understanding of Aviation or a bias against certain airlines (thinking of the Australian media's coverage of anything related to Qantas of late).

I do not agree that an oversimplified infobox summary is misleading to readers who only go as far as the infobox. I think most of those readers understand there is limit on what can be put in an infobox and are able to look at the text and realise there is a lot more context available if they have questions. This is an encyclopedia after all. Dfadden (talk) 21:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I've undone all of the summary changes as they are not backed up with an actual consensus. I don't see a larger or more visible amount of editors suggesting either one or the other of these two options. I think that the summaries should stay as before unless a definitive consensus is reached. Cutlass ^Ciera 00:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Let's look at Colgan 3407, where the Summary has triggered multiple debates among editors. At present, the Summary is: "Stalled during landing approach". This, I believe, is clearly an oversimplification. I'd even suggest it's misleading, as it seems to (silently) attribute the cause only to the airplane itself. As we all acknowledge, accidents have multiple contributing factors, which are typically shown in great detail in official reports. But the sentence that describes "probable cause", even in official reports, is a lot more succinct. In Colgan, the NTSB said: "The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain’s inappropriate response to the activation of the stick shaker, which led to an aerodynamic stall from which the airplane did not recover." In the Summary, that can be stated: "Stalled during approach due to pilot error". (Multiple secondary RS use "pilot error".) There's no way and no need to sugar-coat it. The official report gives details of several errors by both pilots. It seems that this Summary should actually be one of the easier ones to write, given the extensive media and official descriptions of crew errors. Do we need to mention icing or training or airline policy in the Summary? The NTSB did not in its probable cause statement, and we don't need to either, if we want to keep the Summary both brief and accurate.

A couple of other examples, which have generated plenty of back-and-forth: Lion 610 and Ethiopian 302. At present, the Summary for each is identical: "Loss of control in flight". To be a little blunt, this is just plain silly. The Summary does not need to say "in flight", so we could actually make the Summary even briefer: "Loss of control". That's not very informative. Based on sources, the Summary for each should be slightly different. Secondary sources did not ascribe "pilot error" to either flight (with possibly an outlier media exception for one or the other). The official Lion Air report described multiple technical faults and also said crew resource management in response was "ineffective". So, the Summary could be: "Loss of control due to automated flight control behavior and ineffective crew response". The Ethiopian official report made no mention of "ineffective", "improper" or any such similar term for pilot action; the report fully blamed MCAS. So, the Ethiopian Summary could be: "Loss of control due to automated flight control behavior". A complicating issue is that the U.S. and French agencies published reports that assigned some blame to the crew in each accident. But those were not the official findings of the investigating countries, and the Summaries need not attempt to describe such additional factors; the article text provides the full background. I think these examples show the feasibility of writing a Summary that tells both what and why and is brief, accurate, informative and not misleading, whether the cause is unequivocal (Colgan) or nuanced (Lion, Ethiopian). DonFB (talk) 02:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

DonFB, I almost agree on the Colgan example, which makes me think of a possible rule: if there is a clear statement in the 'reference' reliable source (a report by the NTSB would normally count as such) that cites just one probable cause, then such cause could be included in the summary. Anything more articulated or nuanced than that goes as a whole in the article body, and the summary covers only the what.

I disagree on the 737 MAX examples though: "Loss of control in flight" is not silly, because control can be lost just as well during the takeoff or landing runs. What's missing is the core piece of information about the what: that the aircraft crashed (as opposed to recovering from the loss of control), and there could be a bit more detail too, e.g. "Crashed following loss of control during initial climb". And those two accidents are great examples of complicated and even controversial chains of events that are the opposite to the Colgan crash, and therefore do not belong to the summary.

[--- BREAK --- ]

Dfadden beat me to it: I am still to find an accident investigation authority whose reports include, in the Accident Details section at the top, a field such as 'Causes', 'Probable cause' or anything like that. Same for the Aviation Safety Network. That means something. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, consider this: the very phrase that has been in use by official government investigating agencies for many years is "probable cause". They state the why as a standard part of their announcement. I believe we can do the same in a brief Summary.

This discussion, I believe, is essentially about whether we may ever use the phrase "pilot error" in the Summary. I'll repeat something I said earlier. If neither reliable secondary sources nor the official investigating report uses that phrase, then Wikipedia should not use it. If secondary sources do use it and the official report supports it with a word like "improper" or "inappropriate" when describing crew action in the published probable cause, then our summary can use the phrase. DonFB (talk) 17:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

DonFB: yes, investigation authorities use the phrase "probable cause" to explain the why of an accident, and they typically do that at the conclusion of the report, at the very bottom of it, not in a one-liner at the top alongside date and place of the accident. Perhaps we should follow their example.

And no, this discussion is not just about the use of the phrase "pilot error"; it's about finding a way to include accident causes in general in the infobox summary that is brief and neutral at the same time. I believe that in some cases that is possible, but in many others it is not, and when it's not, causes should be omitted altogether. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the principles you state: brief and neutral, and I believe we can uphold them. You appear to believe, however, that only a minority of cases can include causes in the Summary while being brief and neutral: "in some cases, that is possible, but in many others it is not". You say if RS gives "just one probable cause", then we can show it in the Summary, but "Anything more articulated or nuanced than that goes as a whole in the article body". The Colgan 3407 Summary at present does not meet your standard. The NTSB clearly stated a single probable cause: the captain's "inappropriate" response to the stick shaker which led to the unrecoverable stall. Their next sentence begins, "Contributing to the accident...." We can accurately summarize the probable cause with the neutral phrasing: "Stalled and crashed during landing approach due to pilot error". Another well-known case: Air France 447. The Summary is: "Entered high-altitude stall; impacted ocean". Correct, but to be accurate as well as brief and neutral, it should say: "High-altitude stall due to malfunction and pilot error; impacted ocean." We can readily and briefly summarize the two main causes. I don't see a necessity for arbitrarily limiting the Summary to a single cause. Yes, accidents can have multiple contributing factors, and those are identified in official reports, but it's not the purpose of the Summary to show them, and they are not the same as "probable cause".

On your other point: I don't think the placement of probable cause in the format of an official report should have any influence on our summary. The investigating agency may choose to show all the evidence before giving their conclusion. We are not obligated to "follow their example". We have a Summary for a reason: to give readers an immediate basic understanding of the event, rather than forcing them to read most of the article to learn about conclusions. DonFB (talk) 01:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The example of the investigative agencies is that they don't put the causes in a one-liner part of any summary; they only cover them in the body of the report, in prose, in a dedicated section. That's what I meant, location aside.

Your summary for Air France 447 is a good example of how quickly this becomes problematic: that there were just "two main causes" is your opinion; certainly it's not stated in the report. "Malfunction" suggests that something broke, which is inaccurate: everything on that aircraft worked as designed, including the pitot heat system; it was the beyond-design icing conditions that led to the pitot tubes becoming blocked. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 21:06, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Deeday that the summary for AF447 as suggested by DonFB mischaracterises the causes as determined in the BEA report. Thus a better, neutral, summary per my previous suggestion would be "loss of control enroute resulting in the destruction of the aircraft". This is based on the format used by some (but not all) investigating agencies and provides an accurate, factual characterisation of the accident.

As for saying the summary should allow readers to understand the accident without having to read further to find the conclusions, I'd suggest that's why we have a Lead parargraph, as does WP:SUMMARY. While infoboxes can provide quick facts (not contextual information) "at a glance" and allow third parties to use the data more easily per MOS:INFOBOX, it is also true that infoboxes should be kept very brief and consistent. They should not be a replacement for a well written lead paragraph, which will cater sufficiently to time-poor readers while providing context that is outside the scope of an infobox. Dfadden (talk) 22:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, about TAM Airlines 3054, the final report lists cockpit coordination, training, management planning, little experience of the pilot and management oversight, perception error, lack of perception, loss of situational awareness and design as contributing factors for the crash, but no mention of "pilot error" in said report. Given those statements, I'm thinking we can keep the infobox summary brief with "Runway excursion on landing" and mention the causes elsewhere in the article's body. On a side note, should we start an WP:RFC on listing the causes in the infobox summaries if it's necessary? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As to the RFC, I don't have any objections if it is necessary to establish a consensus. I also don't have any objections to waiting a week or two longer to see if one can be established without a formal RFC. RecycledPixels (talk) 15:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal for Summary field guidelines

To try and move forward with this discussion, what would people think of the following idea of guidelines for the Summary field of the {{Infobox aircraft occurrence}} template? What would people change, add or remove?

Summary – Brief factual summary of the occurrence. Should include any relevant circumstances and the fate of the aircraft (e.g. crashed, ditched etc) if not already obvious from the article title. Can include causes if a statement of probable cause is present in a reliable source (typically, the accident investigation report) and can be concisely summarised without compromising accuracy and neutrality. Otherwise, causes should be omitted, and covered instead in the lead and article body.

-- Deeday-UK (talk) 21:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I think this is overkill - it currently says "Brief factual summary of the occurrence." and I don't think we need to be implementing any more rules than that. SportingFlyer T·C 21:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, that would leave the question that started this discussion unanswered. The point matters, editors have different views about it, and there are currently no guidelines on a common approach. And it's not the first time that the question comes up. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 08:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

By definition, anything we write should be neutral, and we all seem to agree the Summary should be brief. I think Project guidance that says we should exclude cause or causes if someone deems it to be too complicated still leaves the door very much open to disputes about brevity and oversimplification. My opinion is that guidance should say the Summary is for specifying the event and its cause, and should be brief. We might define "brief" as no longer, and preferably shorter, than a basic declarative sentence. I agree with the rebuttal above of my proposed Summary for Air France 447. I would offer instead: "High-altitude stall due to weather [or 'icing'], system design and pilot error; impacted ocean." That's still brief, and I believe it's neutral and covers the major causes. In my comments on this subject, I've been including actual proposed text to try to distill our generalities (neutral, brief, reliably sourced) into real-world phrasing to show the possibilities for condensing official summaries and RSes into usable and useful Infobox text. DonFB (talk) 07:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment – @Nimbus227, Deeday-UK, DonFB, RecycledPixels, Dfadden, Cutlass, Sjones23, and SportingFlyer: Since this discussion has stalled for over a month now without much consensus, where do we go from here? Should an RFC be started (and where would it be appropriate to start one) or should we keep discussing this topic in this section? Aviationwikiflight (talk) 21:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Or should we leave the status quo as is? Aviationwikiflight (talk) 08:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
By all means feel free to create an RfC, although in general I don't see much appetite for changing the status quo, tbh. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 08:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition

I have nominated Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 22:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Is planehistoria.com a reliable source?

https://planehistoria.com/ publishes quite a lot of aviation content, but I see many red flags, including a general lack of bylines, absence of listing sources, lack of photo attribution, lack of editorial, and lack of contact information. None of these signal unreliability per se, but taken together, it looks bad to me. What do others here think? Do we have anything conclusive one way or another? --Rlandmann (talk) 22:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Update -- I also note very many copyright violations for the images on the site. It makes extensive use of CC-licenced images from Wikimedia sources but does not attribute them, and also republishes images that appear to be under copyright and not have any free licence, eg this photo taken from here (note the copyright notice in the footer). --Rlandmann (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I took a quick look at the site and noticed the exact same red flags you did (lack of bylines, no sourcing, no attribution, etc.). I also noticed that the writing just seemed off, so I some randomly selected segments of various articles through AI detection services (GPTZero and Detecting AI). Though I cannot vouch for the accuracy of either service, both stated with high confidence that the text samples were written by generative AI. AI detection might be spotty at best, but it's another data point. I'd recommend adding this to WP:RSPSS if consensus is reached that it is Generally Unreliable or should be Deprecated.

I would support having it listed as Generally Unreliable due to the lack of attribution, sourcing, and what appears to be extensive use of generative text, or Deprecated if substantial amounts of incorrect information can be found. nf utvol (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Ha! Nice catch with those tools. Not definitive of course, but I tested them out on some texts of known provenance, and they seem to work well. I also noticed this weird article which not only includes an obviously untrue headline, the article body doesn't make any reference to that extraordinary claim. This itself reeks of AI! --Rlandmann (talk) 01:33, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Generally unreliable. To the other problems I'd add that it is a mix of reporting, history, discussion and opinion, with no clear dividing lines between them. A useful source of gossip to follow up, but nothing more. (FWIW, Deprecation is a formal process and not really worth pursuing for minor cases like this one). — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Is acig.org aka Air Combat Information Group a reliable source?

I did a source check on a recent edit to Dassault Mirage F1 and ran across this archived site. Quick search on the Googles suggests that the original website lost its .org domain 15± years ago and some content was moved to a .info domain, but updates ceased circa 2020 and most of the former pages are no longer linked. The dial-up-friendly formatting, 31337 H4X0R color scheme, and lack of notes or citations virtually screams WP:USERGENERATED Usenet project. Seems extremely sketchy but I'm curious if anyone out there knows anything different. Carguychris (talk) 22:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Bits of the overall site are written by published authors, like Tom Cooper - [14] (with some being extracts from works published elsewhere), and might be able to pass WP:SPS, while other parts of the website (such as the page you linked) don't have an identifiable published author and definitely don't count.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Generally unreliable. No editorial oversight. Only cited quotes from RS can be trusted, but then you have the RS so you don't need the BS. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:27, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Further discussion here. It wasn't completely dismissed.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

reliability of airdisaster.ru

Another reliability question! This time about airdisaster.ru, which is cited nearly 600 times on various articles. It's cited so often that I opened a discussion over on the Reliable Sources noticeboard if anyone wants to weigh in. --Rlandmann (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Mentioning initial survivors/fatalities on template:infobox aircraft occurrence

Should the aircraft occurrence infobox include initial survivors/fatalities of aviation disasters in brackets? I've noticed that some articles include it and some others don't. Scs52 (talk) 16:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

No. At least some of those edits we're seeing on accident articles are just vandalism with made-up numbers, such as this edit. Even if the numbers were valid, there is no reason to include them in the infobox. RecycledPixels (talk) 04:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

"Musical groups or artists" section in Fatalities list

Should the list of fatalities from aviation accidents include duplicate entries for notable musical artists in both the "Individuals" and "Musical groups or artists" sections? I would prefer to consolidate all of them in the latter section. Join the discussion on the Talk page. Carguychris (talk) 12:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Lists of [Aircraft Name] operators

Do the lists showing up in Category:Lists of aircraft operators by aircraft type belong in Wikipedia?

I haven't checked all of the lists appearing but most of the sources either come from the aircraft manufacturer (such as Airbus or Boeing), come from WP:PLANESPOTTERS, Airfleets which is similar enough to Planespotters or, but not limited to, sources only talking about a specific operator ordering x aircraft. From what I've been able to find, there really aren't any sources talking about who operates x aircraft which does fail WP:NLIST and WP:GNG. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

As it stands, these lists have always struck me as a violation of WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTDATABASE, but they contain some useful information despite this. I suggest more uniform inclusion criteria and formatting. Carguychris (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Very generally speaking, I think WP is completely saturated with all kinds of possible and less possible lists. For myself I never consult them, so I find them ALL unnecessary and thus a waste of resources. But that is only me, of course. Jan olieslagers (talk) 15:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Aeroflot Flight 31 (1955)#Requested move 7 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Aeroflot Flight 31 (1955)#Requested move 7 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 16:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Hermann Göring has an RfC

Hermann Göring has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of Airfleets.net

I've noticed that Airfleets.net is used in almost 600 articles on both accident articles involving the aircraft's history and fleet data. And it can be said that it also bears some resemblance with Planespotters. Its disclaimer page – [15] – states: "While every effort is made to ensure accuracy, Airfleets.net makes no representation as to the accuracy of, and cannot accept any legal responsibility for any errors, ommissions, mis-statements or mistakes within the pages of this web site or on other web sites which may be linked to this site from time to time. [...] " I'm also wondering where they get their information from and if there is editorial oversight over the published data. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 15:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

For starters, it doesn't appear to be WP:USERGENERATED like Planespotters. The disclaimer alone is likely not enough to consider it unreliable as it appears to be purely for legal purposes, but the lack of cited sources and information on their editorial oversight (or existence thereof) is enough for me to lean unreliable. - ZLEA _T\^C 16:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not possible to tell for sure; there is no "About us" type information to know what checks they make, and I can find no Internet chitchat about its reliability. According to WP:SOURCES, we should "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." In the absence of such a reputation we must, per questionable, "Beware of sources that sound reliable but do not have the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that this guideline requires." So, while it may or may not turn out to be questionable, we cannot currently accept it as reliable. This is just one of an ever-growing cascade of dodgy sources which our Aviation hangers-on espouse. In my opinion we need an aviation-wide crusade against all this crap. Sadly, I no longer have either the time or the energy to follow that through. Hey-ho. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Chhatrapati_Shivaji_Maharaj_International_Airport#Requested_move_13_August_2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Chhatrapati_Shivaji_Maharaj_International_Airport#Requested_move_13_August_2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 06:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Voepass Linhas Aéreas#Requested move 12 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Voepass Linhas Aéreas#Requested move 12 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 19:53, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Total Express Linhas Aéreas#Requested move 16 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Total Express Linhas Aéreas#Requested move 16 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 19:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Flightsfrom.com

is Flightsfrom.com a reliable source? It is a website that shows a list of which airport has flights to which destinations operated by which airline, they can be a source for adding new routes on airports and list of airlines destinations articles, word of caution: it is a independent source,and it is not a booking website,however, this website sometimes may lack in information, this website only shows nonstop destinations from a specific airport, for an example: Qantas and British Airways operate London Heathrow-Singapore-Sydney flights, however,when you open London Heathrow, it does not show Sydney as a destination, same thing from Sydney, it wont show London Heathrow,also, if a certain route with two flights sections has no fifth freedom route on the second section: KLM's Amsterdam-Taipei Taoyuan-Manila flights has no fifth freedom route between Taipei Taoyuan and Manila, but when you open Taipei Taoyuan-Manila flights, it will show KLM is a operator, and once again, from Manila, it does not show Amsterdam as a destination. Also updated are monthly and not constantly, so if a new route/route change/route discontinuation was announced during or slightly before the update, it may take a longer time to update. Metrosfan (talk) 05:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh and also, to clarify, this source sometimes give false information on routes that's seasonal or are temporarily suspended for a while, also this website won't show if a charter flight is a charter or not, it will be treated the same as a normal flight Metrosfan (talk) 04:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj International Airport#Requested move 13 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj International Airport#Requested move 13 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Reeves AN/MSQ-77 Bomb Directing Central#Requested move 16 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Reeves AN/MSQ-77 Bomb Directing Central#Requested move 16 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 12:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Not notable accidents, deletion debates: What's the point of Wikipedia : WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force/missing articles then?

I mean, of all the 70 aviation accident articles that I took time to create by using this missing article page, and after seeing that actually a crash that had killed ~10 people can be easily deleted, what's the point of this page, especially for the small crashes resulting in a few people dead?
How is this one 2017 Aerogaviota Antonov An-26 crash different than any random accident that did 1 to 20 dead in the URSS far back ago then?
Aeroflot related articles - and there are still more than a hundred to be translated from russian - really do not qualify, I mean I'm pretty sure you could ask for deletion most of the articles I created. I tried to help, not knowing this. So basically, a crash, even if the course of event is documented and sourced, is not relevant enough for the English Wikipedia by itself, even if it killed people?
Just trying to understand, this is not a complaint, but I really don't get it --Global Donald (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

My explanation is that the missing articles list is the result of an idea somewhat common within Wikiproject Aviation, and which I myself espoused in the past: the idea that Wikipedia could become a better and more encyclopedic version of the ASN; that it could become the go-to place to learn about every significant air accident ever occurred (with 'significant' meaning having caused a number of fatalities, or having involved a big plane, or some other arbitrary criterion like that).

The harsh reality, however, is that any such idea or project-wide consensus are trumped by Wikipedia's general guidelines on notability. Take for example WP:EVENT, in a nutshell: "An event is presumed to be notable if it has lasting major consequences or affects a major geographical scope, or receives significant non-routine coverage that persists over a period of time."

It's hard to argue that an event such as the 2017 Aerogaviota Antonov An-26 crash has had lasting major consequences, affected a large geographical scope, or received significant coverage that persisted over time; the evidence, in terms of sources, is just not there. Sadly, the same is true for a large number of existing accident articles, and possibly for the majority of the missing articles in the list. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 12:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Yet even WP:EVENT is applied inconsistently, when you have an overwhelming number of editors, many who confuse WP:SIGCOV with recentism and tabloid scaremongering that make an incident look more significant than it actually is. See the 3 contentious deletion discussions at United Airlines Flight 1175, that killed nobody and caused only minor damage to the aircraft. The main argument for keeping it is that it resulted in an airworthiness directive (as any safety issue should and this is a relatively routine occurrence) and that it recieved "lasting coverage" because it was breifly referenced in the media when a similar uncontained engine failure occurred and again when the NTSB released its final report. In truth, the lasting significance of this event really only relates to a particular engine type and could be covered in a paragraph in the article for Pratt & Whitney PW4000. Several WP:AVIATION editors have expressed this view only to be drowned out in successive AfDs. Dfadden (talk) 21:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

RFC concerning an article which may be of interest to this project

See Talk:Flying car#RfC on the inclusion of Whitehead's No. 21 machine in this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Cathay Dragon

Cathay Dragon has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 21:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Airbus A320 family

Airbus A320 family has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 03:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Citing Sources at Draft:PH-BUK

Hello can someone please help me yo search sources for the article Draft PH-BUK. The draft review is being declined due to lack of enough sources. BuddyHeigh (talk) 12:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

That might well be a waste of effort. It seems doubtful to me that one particular museum exhibit aircraft, with no particular achievements, or noteworthy events, would be found sufficiently noticeable to merit its own article. Jan olieslagers (talk) 12:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, it just doesn't seem notable and would be extremely unlikely to pass an AfD. Canterbury Tail talk 14:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

If the only sources are Wikipedia and Planespotters.net, then it almost certainly doesn't meet WP:GNG. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I also think there is no need for an aircraft without any historical importance. The fact that it is the sister aircraft of accident aircraft PH-BUF, and it is the only surviving Boeing 747-200 of KLM BuddyHeigh (talk) 20:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

My neighbour's cleaning woman is a niece of the postman who once had an affair with Ronald Reagan's house cook. Who of them (if any) is noteworthy? Jan olieslagers (talk) 21:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

A topic's relation to another notable topic does not make the former notable. As WP:NOTEDnotNOTABLE puts it, When notability is asserted on Wikipedia, it really means reliable sources have "noted" the subject, which has become worthy of "note." - ZLEA _T\^C 22:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash#Requested move 1 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash#Requested move 1 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 12:50, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for British Airways

British Airways has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:H2X#Requested move 16 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:H2X#Requested move 16 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 08:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Voepass Linhas Aéreas Flight 2283#Requested move 7 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Voepass Linhas Aéreas Flight 2283#Requested move 7 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 11:21, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Liviu Librescu

Liviu Librescu has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 07:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

HIALS

Requested move at Talk:Frederick E. Humphreys#Requested move 8 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Frederick E. Humphreys#Requested move 8 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Anatoly Kvochur

I'd like to update the Anatoly Kvochur article with a note about his injuries following his spectacular ejection at the Paris Air Show. Currently, the article (and the relevant reference) doesn't say. TheAviationGeekClub says "cuts and bruises", but I'm not convinced that is a reliable source. Aviation Week has a story (following Kvochur's death) here, but it is behind a paywall. Does anyone have access to AWIN/Aviation Week's paid service? I'll also ask on Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 16:03, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis#Requested move 14 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis#Requested move 14 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading of Beans 16:08, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Mboie Airport#Requested move 22 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mboie Airport#Requested move 22 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 03:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Wembo Airport#Requested move 22 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Wembo Airport#Requested move 22 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 04:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Matsieng Air Strip#Requested move 22 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Matsieng Air Strip#Requested move 22 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 21:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Names of Surviving Aircraft Articles

@Airbus A320-100: has moved a number of articles in the lists of surviving aircraft category from "List of surviving X" to "List of preserved X" with the comment "fix grammar". I'm not entirely sure what the grammatical error was, but it is presumably in reference to the issue of how to refer to static display aircraft when other examples of the type are still in active service. I'm not sure which format is better. I lean more towards "surviving" because it matches the "surviving aircraft" nomenclature used in main articles. However, I am of the strong opinion that whatever phrasing is used, it should be applied to all articles of the type for uniformity, which has not been done. Does anyone else have any thoughts? –Noha307 (talk) 01:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Noha307. This is because "surviving" is a term used for organic beings. But even if it is used for objects, it looks like it is stylized in a fan's Point of View as per WP:POV. Whereas preserved is used for objects in a neutral Point of View. Airbus A320-100 (talk) 01:23, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Airbus A320-100: Surviving (or survivor) is a term that has been used for a long time in main aircraft articles to refer to aircraft that are no longer in active service and the objection you raise seems to be a minor issue. I could see "preserved" being a slightly more neutral term, but then you run into the problem that it can't be used to refer to actively flying aircraft since they are technically not "preserved". I'm not entirely sure how "surviving" is stylized or POV, possibly along the lines of raiding career for U-boats. However, I am somewhat skeptical that this is a problem.

Might I suggest reading through the dedicated talk page to review previous arguments, as this is a subject that has come up repeatedly. –Noha307 (talk) 02:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to very strongly advise against deleting talk page sections as "unnecessary". This is moving into disruptive editing territory. Please do not repeat this. –Noha307 (talk) 02:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I won't let anything worse happen Airbus A320-100 (talk) 02:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

A question for you Airbus: Is English not your first language? –Noha307 (talk) 02:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

English is my first language. Airbus A320-100 (talk) 02:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Your phrasing seemed a bit unusual and I thought it might be indicative of someone who was unfamiliar with the language. No criticism or judgement intended, just wanted to make sure nothing was being lost in translation. –Noha307 (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to reverting the undiscussed moves back to their previous titles. If Airbus thinks "preserved" better describes the topics, then they should seek consensus first. - ZLEA _T\^C 02:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

They need to be moved back immediately. The title formats are by WPAIR consensus, and no dubious claims of POV can override that. I count at least 30 that have been moved. A320-100 needs to move them back immediately. I can do it if necessary, but it's a lot of work to clean up someone else's messes. BilCat (talk) 02:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I am agreeing with @ZLEA. Sorry @BilCat, but @ZLEA is much more persuasive than others in this thread. Airbus A320-100 (talk) 03:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? Everyone agrees that your changes should be reverted. Please do so as you clearly don't have consensus for that change. --McSly (talk) 03:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. BilCat (talk) 03:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@BilCat did say he could do it and I'll let him Airbus A320-100 (talk) 03:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

BilCat you don't have to do that. I'll go ahead and move them. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

even @ZLEA agrees to do so and I'll let him do that too. Airbus A320-100 (talk) 03:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

It's done. I'll also advise you to not close discussions which you are actively involved in, especially if you were not the one to start them (per WP:CLOSE). - ZLEA _T\^C 03:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Airbus A320-100 has opened Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 80#Grammar issue regarding POV on titles for objects in preservation. ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 03:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to add to the Village Pump discussion, it already has more content than the whole sorry story merits. But I do wish to express my respect and gratitude and support to all who have kept our dictionary on the right path (in my consideration), BilCat and ZLEA and Noha307 to name but the most prominent. Keep up the good work! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

New categories involving aviation accidents

Hello, WikiProject Aviation,

An infrequent editor just created some new categories under the parent category Category:Aviation accidents and incidents by type. They include Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by auxiliary equipment failure, Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by clear air turbulence and Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by metal fatigue. They are not well populated and I hope by posting this message, those editors who are knowledgeable about aviation accidents can either help populate them with appropriate articles or nominate the categories for deletion or merging at WP:CFD if they are redundant to existing categories. Thank you for any help you can supply. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Going through the user's category creations, I believe these are all their recent aviation accident/incident category creations:

A lot of these seem oddly specific and unlikely to be useful, so I would not be opposed to CfD. - ZLEA _T\^C 20:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I've XFD'd the "shootdowns" and "auxiliary equipment" categories, and someone beat me to the punch with the "navigation system failure" category. Carguychris (talk) 17:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Update: I've also XFD'd the excessively specific airliner bombing subcategories. I don't think this category will ever grow large enough to warrant subdividing, and the Soviet Union subcategory is of course permanently capped by certain historical events in 1991. Carguychris (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Los Angeles runway disaster#Requested move 4 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Los Angeles runway disaster#Requested move 4 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 15:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Madrid runway disaster#Requested move 7 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Madrid runway disaster#Requested move 7 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2023 Wagner Group plane crash#Requested move 15 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2023 Wagner Group plane crash#Requested move 15 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 13:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Category:Pilot intake jet fighter

It seems the deleted category from this discussion has been recreated at Category:Pilot intake jet fighter. I've nominated the new category for WP:G4 speedy deletion, but given the different name, I am not confident that the reviewing admin will recognize the category as a recreation. - ZLEA _T\^C 23:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The Categories for discussion tag at Category:Pilot intake jet fighter should make that clear. -Fnlayson (talk) 23:58, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully, but someone unfamiliar with aircraft layouts might not immediately recognize a "nose-mounted intake" and a "pilot intake" as referring to the same thing. If it weren't for the articles in the category, I probably would have assumed "pilot intake" was supposed to mean something like this. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair point, thanks for explanation. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

If it's been created by the same editor they are using a different account. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 08:10, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Which I would have noticed had I visited their talk page! I think the intended word was 'pitot' not 'pilot' as that was how I described it at the last deletion discussion (which the creator read and agreed it was a bad category). Re-creation of a bad category with another incorrect term, and suspected socking, it's not looking good. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 09:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The editor has contested deletion. - ZLEA _T\^C 14:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:CFD is the next step (again!) or a proven WP:SPI would delete all contribs. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure on policy: is there anything preventing the addition of this gibberish category to multiple aircraft articles being reverted immediately? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily, but I decided not to as I was not 100% sure an admin would agree with the CSD. With the CSD now being contested, I'm not sure now is the best time to do that, either. I won't oppose anyone who wants to remove the category from the articles, though. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:58, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It can be removed from the articles for failing WP:CATDEF. Not defining and not supported by references in the article. Canterbury Tail talk 19:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

A bot will automatically delete the categories from articles as I discovered last time, I was half way through removing them manually. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:17, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I use Cat-a-lot a lot (no pun intended) on Commons, and the deletion of the category gave me the perfect opportunity to test it here. See Wikipedia:User scripts/List#Categories 2. - ZLEA _T\^C 23:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I've nominated it as a category for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 October 15#Category:Pilot intake jet fighter. This editor is causing extra work and it needs to stop. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The category has been deleted. I've added all articles from the category to my watchlist to more easily catch any further recreation attempts. - ZLEA _T\^C 23:49, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment

I've created an RfC on listing the officially determined causes in the summary field of the Infobox accident occurrence template. It can be found at Template talk:Infobox aircraft occurrence#RfC on causes in the summary field. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 09:25, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Concorde

Concorde has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Linate Airport disaster#Requested move 27 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Linate Airport disaster#Requested move 27 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 12:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Commemorative Air Force has an RfC

Commemorative Air Force has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. –Noha307 (talk) 23:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

NATO Reporting Names degrade in relevance in Russian / Soviet Aircraft

I want to de-upgrade the Relevance in NATO designations in articles with soviet technology, including Aircraft, Missiles and Submarines, i think the new generations of engineering Entusiasts need to first learn the original designations of this vehicles and put these western designations in a second-plane chart. MGXD11 (talk) 01:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

i think the new generations of engineering Entusiasts need to first learn the original designations of this vehicles Per WP:AIRNATO, The original designations are already present in the first paragraph and are predominantly used to refer to Soviet/Russian aircraft within articles. It is customary to include common alternative names for topics, including those originating outside the country of origin, in the first sentence of an article. NATO reporting names are no exception. Had the USSR assigned standardized reporting names to NATO aircraft, we would have included them in their respective articles as well. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Per MOS:BOLDREDIRECT, it is common established Wikipedia practice to include alternate names for all sorts of things – not just Russian and Soviet military hardware – in boldface in the first or second sentence of the lead. NATO reporting names are commonly used in secondary sources to refer to Russian or Soviet materiel; a quick Google search for "flanker" or "fullback aircraft" bears this out. As ZLEA points out, WP:AIRNATO already specifies that original designations be used in the title and article body, which I feel is adequate emphasis. Carguychris (talk) 14:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I missed this earlier, but the OP should be aware of ru:Су-9. We've had Russian-language editors gripe about NATO names before, but they always ignore the fact that they're also included in the Russian language Wiki articles. See Talk:Ilyushin Il-76/Archive 1#NATO reporting name for another similar discussion. BilCat (talk) 00:09, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Air Inter Flight 148#Requested move 27 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Air Inter Flight 148#Requested move 27 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 12:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)