Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 82

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Closing the RfC above

Perpetuating closed discussion

The above RfC on amending the policy to explicitly allow any statement that ascribes information to the source has unjustifiably been closed by User:Levivich less than 24 hours after start, saying that "No chance that consensus will form to repeal WP:V#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion." But it's not an attempt to "repeal WP:V#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion."! Most participants so far are the same as in prior discussions. I'm trying to attract more. We should leave this RfC open for at least a week. Sovmeeya (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC) any self-published source can be used as a source of information for any statement that ascribe the information to the publisher We already can and do use self-published sources to verify statements when we feel the inclusion of said statements is justified in context. if a statement did not rely on self-published sources in order to be verified, this change wouldn't make any difference regarding its inclusion. if inclusion of a statement was seen as justified per WP:NPOV and WP:ONUS, this change wouldn't make any difference either. So this change has no function as policy unless it impinges on WP:ONUS. Remsense ‥ 论 11:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC) The proposed change impacts poorly with WP:DUE@WP:NPOV, which requires viewpoints to be represented in proportion to the prominence in reliable sources. As currently written, WP:V excludes self-published sources from that body of reliable sources, unless those sources meet the conditions in WP:EXPERTSPS or in WP:ABOUTSELF. This is a good thing. We should not need to trawl through the quagmire of self-published sources to determine whether content meets NPOV. Rotary Engine talk 11:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC) You don't say? That's what I've been saying all along! OVER AND OVER!! In all discussions! I've said that over a month ago at Talk:Microsoft Windows#Privacy features addition reverted. ("There are two different and independent questions here") There are editors that think Wikipedia:Verifiability strictly prohibits this in some cases. (when the ascribed statements involve third-parties, etc.) Hence the RfC, which was prematurely and unjustifiably been closed for an invalid and false reason! It aims to explicitly state this to prevent disputes. Obviously, it does not impinges on WP:ONUS! (as I've clearly written in the RfC: "Inappropriate statements will fail WP:UNDUE. So there is really no reason for a concern.") Reopen it now!. Sovmeeya (talk) 12:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC) Nah. Remsense ‥ 论 12:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC) The people closing this RFC (which has no chance of going your way, see WP:SNOW) are doing you a favor. You've already been blocked for bludgeoning once, it is time to disengage and find another way to contribute to the encyclopedia, not get yourself blocked for edit warring to keep the RFC open. MrOllie (talk) 12:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Note: I blocked Sovmeeya for a week for disruption related to this dispute. They are unlikely to be able to respond here during that time. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The RFC should be re-re-closed, and this discussion hatted. The level of IDHT has now just become disruptive. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done NebY (talk) 13:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Source display

We have achieved a consensus at the List of common misconceptions to split one of our Special:LongPages. Once we decide exactly how to split it, that page will be converted to a very short list (e.g., links to * List of common misconceptions (A–G), or * List of common misconceptions about history, or whatever is decided).

Some editors really appreciate the one-stop-shopping aspect of the long page, but there are so many refs that it's run into the Help:Template limits problem. If there were no refs on the page, of course, we wouldn't see that problem. An editor has very kindly mocked up an option at User:S Marshall/Sandbox/List of common misconceptions demo that would transclude the real lists (e.g., the subject-specific lists) into a single "List of common misconceptions (one page)" that doesn't display the refs. To see the refs, you would click through to the real lists, where you would find identical wording, but this time with the refs shown. To be clear, this display style is meant to be in addition to, rather than instead of, the real lists.

Our question is: Would this be acceptable in the main namespace in terms of the WP:V policy? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't think it's a problem in general, but in specific instances it could be. If the information is a direct quote, material that has been challenged, material that is likely to be challenged, or, probably the most important one, contentious material about a BLP, then it would appear to conflict with WP:V/WP:BLP. Not including that information, or only including those references in the transclusion could be a solution. But that may become a mess of include and noinclude tags.

I could see the issue of CIRCULAR being brought up, but it's not being verified by another Wikipedia article it is content transcluded from another Wikipedia article. So I don't think that's a concern. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I tend to lean towards the “information needs to be cited in every article in which it appears” mode of thinking. If you are transcluding cited information from one article to another, why not also transclude the citations? It doesn’t add extra work. Blueboar (talk) 00:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

There are so many of them that all the citations won't display. There are server-side limits to how much template content you can put on a single page. After a certain point, it just stops rendering all subsequent templates, and everything else is an error message. This is one of the two driving forces behind the decision to split the page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Washington Post & LA Times

Are these two newspapers still usable sources after the recent interference by the billionaire owners showed that a fact-based reporting can possibly be surpressed by them when it may bring trouble to the billionaires and their businesses by one of the 2024 candidates for US-President? This question is brought to you by the series 'Questions at the Dawn of Fascism'. --Jensbest (talk) 12:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Any decision by the owner(s) of a newspaper on editorial page policy does not necessarily say anything about the reliability of the newspaper. Editorials, including election endorsements, and opinion pieces, are not generally generally used as reliable sources, anyway. Donald Albury 12:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That's not the point. The point is that an owner has interfered because he fears reactions by a possibly autoritarian US-President. It is the obvious attempt to appease Trump. Trump often and clearly expressed his desire to harm businesses which he dislikes. Considering this history and that the tone of Trump has become fully fascistic, it is not safe to consider the reporting of these two newspapers based on facts and untouched by their billionaire owners. --Jensbest (talk) 13:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You are in the wrong place. The right place is WP:RSN. Zero^talk 13:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The editor earned a WP:TBAN about Trump eight years ago, and has now been blocked for violating it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)