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Can we please settle on some guidance for interviews?

I think there is very broad acceptance that interviews do not contribute to GNG EDIT: for the human interviewee except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer. This follows from the fact that anything the subject is saying about themselves is obviously neither secondary (as explicitly stated in WP:NOR) nor independent, and questions/leading comments by the interviewer are not SIGCOV and/or not secondary. However, a minority of editors at AfD insist that the mere choice by the media to interview a subject imparts or at least presumes notability EDIT: for the interviewee. This position is not at all supported by any notability guidelines EDIT: relating to people. WHYN and GNG require a source to contain SIGCOV that is independent and secondary in order to count toward a presumption of notability, but "chosen to be interviewed" does not constitute coverage EDIT: of the interviewee of any kind whatsoever. ANYBIO states a subject is likely to be notable if they have received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times, but the idea that any news source choosing to interview a subject is a well-known and significant award or honor that confers or even indicates notability is ridiculous, especially considering repeated global consensuses that even winning an Olympic gold medal is not sufficient to meet this criterion.

So can we workshop adding some guidance along the lines of "interviews do not count towards GNG EDIT: of the interviewee unless they contain significant secondary background or analysis by the interviewer that is independent of the interview"? JoelleJay (talk) 00:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

What do you think we need, that isn't already in Wikipedia:Interviews? Is the goal just to have a simplified summary on a page that says {{guideline}} at the top (which, even if we grumble about WP:CREEP, really is needed sometimes), or do we need more content/facts/explanations than are currently available?
In terms of the other editors' analysis, the mere fact of being selected as the subject (NB: not interviewee) of an interview can – sometimes – show "attention from the world at large", which is one of the goals of notability. They're not completely wrong, but I think it is more complicated than just "Some radio show aired a five-minute interview with Joe Film about his new film, so he's notable". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Interviews give us something verifiable to write from, but there's no guarantee of fact checking. If a subject was covered in one or two interviews but no other reliable sources, I'm not sure it would warrant its own article. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
There's no guarantee of fact checking in non-interview sources, either. Peer-reviewed papers are never fact-checked. Scholarly books are rarely fact checked at all (and never thoroughly; it's too expensive). Pre-publication fact checking is a rarity. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
While no source is completely beyond reproach or error, the definition of a WP:RS is that they have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; therefore, we presume that, yes, they fact-check the things we cite. If you have a specific reason to believe a source isn't doing that (ie. coverage that makes it clear they lack that reputation) then you should raise that objection on talk or RSN or wherever. But an interview is different; they are not supposed to be fact-checked the way a news article or a peer-reviewed paper is. Therefore, they're generally unusable for statements of fact in the article voice beyond attributed opinions - a non-independent sort of source, which isn't enough to satisfy the GNG. --Aquillion (talk) 02:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
We don't presume they actually engage in pre-publication fact-checking, because we've written enough at Fact checking to know that that isn't reality, and hasn't been for most of Wikipedia's existence (or ever, in some fields). Most news-related fact-checking these days is post hoc fact-checking. Internal post hoc fact-checking is visible to us by way of the corrections issued later. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
What we presume to the extent we believe we can is that they have standards for sourcing (eg, 2 good sources, etc.) and that in their good judgement they think it is enough to rely on to the extent they rely on it. And that the editor batted it back and forth with the reporter, and that it is not knowingly nor maliciously false (they don't want to be sued or embarrassed, and their reputation matters to them (and us)). Is that New Yorker fact checking, no, but it is not nothing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Respectfully, there is a conflict within even your own post. The heading and early part talks about interviews as a whole, but the situations you are talking about is the argument that mere selection to interview somebody is wp:notability. But IMO the prominence of the source that decided to interview/ cover them, and the length/ depth of the interview are metrics for gauging to what degree it contributes as an indicator of wp:notability. North8000 (talk) 01:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
the prominence of the source that decided to interview/ cover them, and the length/ depth of the interview are metrics for gauging to what degree it contributes as an indicator of wp:notability. I agree that those things might establish that a person is colloquially notable (worthy of note; distinguished or prominent), but that doesn't make them wiki-notable (having been the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources). However, I suppose I agree that those factors can be used to determine the extent to which a particular interview serves to indicate notability. Put another way, I think seeing that someone has been interviewed by The New York Times for a significant accomplishment indicates that there's probably other significant coverage about this person. By contrast, finding an interview of a local businessperson in the Daily Inter Lake is unlikely to indicate that there will be additional significant coverage of that person. All of that said, if there's no other significant coverage, it shouldn't be sufficient to rely on only an interview at AfD to !vote keep. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Generally, when we're talking about interviews as sources, we're not talking about newspapers. The New York Times rarely uses the interview format; they interview people and then turn it into prose. Radio and television shows, on the other hand, interview people and use the interview itself as the publication (and therefore our source). See Interview (journalism)#Famous interviews or thinking about shows like 60 Minutes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Change the NYT to NPR and the Daily Inter Lake to WNYU in my example above and I think my point is still valid. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
My position is that a pure Q&A interview, regardless of source prestige, definitionally cannot count towards determining (presumptive) notability because it is neither IRS SIGCOV nor a "well-known and significant award or honor". People might claim that it indicates notability-proving coverage exists somewhere else, but it does not itself demonstrate notability. A subject cannot meet GNG with any number of interviews (that don't include independent secondary SIGCOV from the interviewer), yet we get people arguing that notability is satisfied with such sources. JoelleJay (talk) 02:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
If a person, for the purpose of talking about himself/his activities/his business/etc, gets featured in an hour-long interview, then that's usually SIGCOV – an hour's worth of wikt:coverage in the media, to be precise – but I agree that it's not WP:INDY (with, as you note originally, the exception of any separate material from the journalist/interviewer/others on the show). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
....Yes, but what SIGCOV is in isolation from WHYN/GNG is irrelevant to this discussion and I certainly don't need it to be clarified to me:
  • except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer
  • SIGCOV that is independent and secondary
  • contain significant secondary background or analysis by the interviewer that is independent of the interview
  • it is neither IRS SIGCOV
  • that don't include independent secondary SIGCOV from the interviewer
JoelleJay (talk) 03:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I mention it partly because your "IRS SIGCOV" may be confusing to people who know that WP:IRS refers to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, a past name for the Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline. The problem isn't all of "IRS SIGCOV"; the problem is only "I", as in WP:INDEPENDENT. An interview of an article's subject can be a reliable source (perhaps even moreso than the subject's own social media posts, which can also be reliable); they can even provide SIGCOV; the problem is that nothing the subject says about the subject is independent of the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Really? Come on... JoelleJay (talk) 07:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with User:North8000 01:13, 28 September 2024 the prominence of the source that decided to interview/ cover them, and the length/ depth of the interview are metrics for gauging to what degree it contributes as an indicator of wp:notability. Where there are no other independent secondary sources, the interview was probably paid for. Prominent sources do not do lengthy deep interviews unless the interviewee was already notable, or there is some other reason. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
A communist under every bed, a paid advertorial in every prominent source? Sources don't generally become, or remain, prominent if they sell air time.
I think the "there is some other reason" category covers a lot. Every now-famous person had a first interview at some point, and almost every one of them must have been interviewed that first time for some reason other than already being famous. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
There are commercial forces (not communism) at play with every newspaper.
If the ONLY evidence of notability is the interview. If the audience had never heard of them. The interview was not produced to sell airtime. Newspapers accept cash, and they don’t always declare it. Cash, or quid quo pro. If you have any desire to promote anything, an interview serves. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
You've been trying to convince me for years now that ordinary newspapers run secret advertisements, but I don't believe you. I agree that some sources do this; the website Florida Politics comes to mind as an example of a source that has been IMO credibly accused of matching coverage levels and content to advertising money. But I don't think we have any reason to expect this from ordinary newspapers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
No, on this question I’ve long since given up on trying convincing you, but I will continue to say: a newspaper publishing an interview on a business person talking about their business, where the person has no prior independent coverage, the most likely explanation by far is that the newspaper is receiving payment. The content isn’t independent, and neither is the newspaper’s decision to produce the interview to be assume to be independent. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I wish you'd start to source that, instead of continuing to say it.
Here's an interview: https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/10/15/mercury-news-interview-charles-liang-founder-super-micro-computer/ It's the first interview I found with a business person, talking about their business, in the biggest daily newspaper for Silicon Valley. It appears to be the first time this business person's name was published in this newspaper. Google Books gives me only business directory-type hits before 2010. What makes you think the reporter or the newspaper was secretly taking money to publish this interview? Anything at all? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I know that some WP:RSPSS green-shaded sources accept in-kind donations for word-for-word publication of company-generated commentary to be attributed to their journalist's name. There is no reliable source for this.
The Mercury News article is behind a paywall. Can you email me a PDF? SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
There's no reliable source, or there's no source at all, beyond someone's imagination?
The Mercury News is a member of The Trust Project, and has placed an indicator on the page saying that it's news. I assume that the list of verification indicators at https://www.mercurynews.com/policies-and-standards/#verification is not behind their paywall, so you can see the categories. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Personal knowledge.
The Charles Liang article does not smell like paid promotion. The subject is not trying to sell anything to the reader.
As an aside, the article begins with 237 words of non-interview introduction that I would count towards the GNG test.
The Mercury News looks unusually trustworthy. This doesn’t mean that all newspapers deserve blind trust. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2024
My post said that it's a matter of degree and discussed metrics that determine that degree. You posited a hypothetical (where there is no coverage except one interview) where the notability case would be weak. This doesn't really address much less go against the main idea of my post. You brought up the possibility of people paying to get interviewed. That would be relevant but I think an exceptional case. North8000 (talk) 14:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The prominence of the source as a metric. Ok.
The length/depth of the interview. Isn’t that just going to SIGCOV? (I think SIGCOV needs improvement)
There are newspapers that will publish for payment, but I guess this is trumped by you requiring a high level of prominence of the source. SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, coupled with the other noted factors (like it's not just a big monolog) that would be sigcov. Which reincorces my point that the practice is weighing multiple metrics. So while they ostensibly deciding about an interview, they are including other considerations such as sigcov. North8000 (talk) 16:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Ok…. “the prominence of the source that decided to interview/ cover them” is a valid metric. It does not mean that the interview qualifies as a GNG source, but it is a metric. As a metric, I think it means that a more stringent BEFORE is needed before rejecting it. It’s a metric independent of the GNG. The GNG is a metric, a very well accepted metric. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The only thing is, when we start using the prominence of a source as a metric, we are making up criteria that are nowhere in the actual words of WP:GNG. GNG is purely about the existence of in-depth reliable secondary sources, not about their prominence. WP:NCORP has guidance (more specifically in WP:AUD) about the prominence of sources, but that applies only to businesses, not to other forms of notability. If we take GNG literally rather than as meaningless letters to invoke when we express our own opinions about suitability of sources, local sources are just as good as major international ones. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't think AUD is exactly about the prominence of sources. It's more about reaching beyond a single small media market.
I wonder whether prominence might be one of those qualities that, being related to reputation, contributes to reliability. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
An interview is not independent of the subject and should not contribute to notability. I agree that introductory material or other commentary by the interviewer or publication may contribute to notability if the coverage is significant. In any event, if a person is truly notable, an interview in a prominent publication should be superfluous in establishing notability because such an interview would usually only happen after the subject has received significant coverage in other sources. If, for example, The New York Times has interviewed someone, that person has probably already been written about; if they have not, and no other sources can be found, then they are probably a low-profile person. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
This dogmatic approach to independence falls apart under close examination. Where do you think "independent" sources get their information? From the air, promise-crammed? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
People and groups of people are routinely written about without being interviewed. Music reviewers don't interview the band every time they review an album or write an analysis of their discography. Journalists don't interview every person they write about (and indeed, prominent people often decline to comment). Historians don't travel back in time to interview their subjects. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Again, where do they get the information? From the subject, or at third hand, from a Wikipedia article based on sources that got the contents based on other sources that got their contents from information from the subject? Why do you think playing telephone makes information more reliable, not less? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
A music critic gets information about a musician or band's progression by listening to all of their albums, going to concerts, etc. A historian can get information about a person by reading a newspaper story that covers that person's indictment, the transcript of the trial where that person didn't testify, and letters between that person's friends and family. A journalist can get information about a person by digging through their trash can and finding incriminating items. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
You think that's what journalism consists of? Dumpster diving? And that level of understanding is what is driving our policy discussions? *rolls eyes* —David Eppstein (talk) 05:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
The journalism bit was a joke. My point is that plenty of people write about other people without ever talking to them. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • It's not a matter of where they get their information. The crux of a reliable independent source is that it has editorial controls and performs fact-checking independent of the subject; through these editorial controls and this fact-checking process, an WP:RS puts their reputation for fact-checking and accuracy behind the things they say. Even if the NYT interviews a random man on the street for a news article, we trust that their editorial process would catch inaccurate statements. An interview does not generally go through the same process. Therefore, it shouldn't be used as one of the two sources for the WP:GNG. --Aquillion (talk) 02:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • "Promise-crammed"? What...? And how are you reading An interview is not independent of the subject and should not contribute to notability. I agree that introductory material or other commentary by the interviewer or publication may contribute to notability if the coverage is significant. that you would conclude Voorts or anyone else believes that interview content can't ever be discussed independently? I mean if literally all the information that exists on a person comes directly from what they/their affiliates have said about them, with zero analysis or contextualization with info from other sources by anyone independent, then yeah, I guess in this hyperbolic strawman scenario there wouldn't be any independent sourcing. It might even mean all that coverage you call "hype" would have to be discarded due to the details ultimately tracing back to press releases. I hardly think it would be a bad thing if notability could only be established with material critically evaluating the subject's actions/impact as observed by unaffiliated people rather than with the select anecdotes and trivial personal info the subject chooses to divulge. JoelleJay (talk) 07:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    "I eat the air, promise-crammed!" is a line from Hamlet, act 3, scene 2 [1]. XOR'easter (talk) 20:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    I wonder whether we could agree on this much: "Statements made by the subject, about the subject, including statements made during an interview, are not independent of the subject". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
User:David Eppstein, an interviewee is never independent of the interview. This does not break down. Where do you think "independent" sources get their information? From the air, promise-crammed?. By information, do you mean facts, or comments? In analysing a secondary source for independence, the facts are not of interest. The question is: where did the comment come from. If the comment, the transformational analysis, starting with the subjective adjectives, came from the interview, it is not independent. If the comment was created by the independent author of the secondary source, it is an independent secondary source. You are muddying the conversation by talking about “information”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Voorts, did you mean that "An interview is not independent of the interviewee"? This is one of the points made in Wikipedia:Interviews: If the local radio station has Prof. IM Portant on to talk about local history, on the 250th anniversary of some local historical event, then the subject of the interview is the historical event, and IM Portant is independent of the historical event. That interview could indicate notability for the historical event (but not for Prof Portant). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Interviewee or subject. I agree that an interview of the professor in those circumstances should not contribute to notability. But I also think that an interview where the interviewee is the subject does not establish notability; at best, it may point towards the existence of suitable sourcing. See my response to North8000 above. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I think that an interview of the professor in those circumstances should contribute to notability – of the historical event, which is the subject of the publication. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't think anyone is suggesting it wouldn't. This discussion is about whether an interview of a person and about that person can count towards establishing the notability of that person. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I thought it was quite clear from the context of my post that we are only talking about situations where the interview subject is the interviewee, but I guess I'll edit it to make this more explicit. (moved to proper thread) JoelleJay (talk) 02:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't think a typical interview should be used to satisfy the GNG. The GNG represents the bare minimum necessary to write a balanced, neutral article. I don't think that an interview satisfies that - it's not independent. Imagine an article sourced solely to one GNG-quality news article and one interview. The only source in that entire article that would give us an external perspective on the subject would be that one article; the interview is no help. Avoiding that over-reliance on a single source is why the GNG requires two sources. (Worse, imagine an article sourced only to two interviews, with no external perspective on the subject at all! We cannot write a neutral encyclopedic article using that.) Provided the GNG is otherwise met, if there are still people arguing over whether the subject is notable enough for an article, an interview might be a "soft" indicator of significance; but it's not sufficient to satisfy that bare minimum because it wouldn't be acceptable for it to be one of the only two supposedly-reliable independent sources in the article. --Aquillion (talk) 02:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think that all of this is subject to what you mean by "typical interview". For example, does your typical interview involve Joe Film talking about himself? Or does your typical interview involve an expert talking about their area of expertise?
    Voorts has amended an example above to NPR. They run a number of radio shows with an interview format. Is a "typical interview" Fresh Air with Terry Gross, and she's interviewing a famous musician about his career? Is it 1A (radio program), and Jennifer White is interviewing an academic expert about climate change? I think that the weekly Fresh Air has more of the qualities we generally value (the interviewer presents factual information; it's pre-recorded and edited, so they can omit errors, baseless self-promotion, etc.), but the interviewee is almost always the subject. The daily 1A has more of a "live" feel with less apparent preparation, but the interviewee is almost never the main subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    The Fresh Air interview might indicate someone is notable, but doesn't establish notability. A famous musician is already notable so the question of whether we would need the Fresh Air interview to establish notability is academic. The 1A interview might actually establish the notability of the subject under WP:NPROF#C7. But, say we take your example of academic and change it to journalist, then it would not establish notability because interviewing someone about their work doesn't establish the notability of that person. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    How exactly does the interviewee discussing themselves constitute Terry Gross writing and publishing non-trivial [and analytic or evaluative] works of [her] own that focus upon the interviewee directly and in detail? Our policy specifically identifies interviews as primary sources "depending on context" and cites four different academic institutions that unequivocally classify interviews as primary sources. What part of a Terry Gross interview has the "context" to make it secondary (and isn't just the background analysis I've already described in the OP)? JoelleJay (talk) 03:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think interviews alone establish notability, you would have to show that the interviews attracted attention in secondary sources. The problem is that interviews don't provide any reliable information about someone, other than what they have said. Even that is questionable, since they can be edited and we require interpretation to determine what someone actually meant.
    If you are relying on an interview, the notability is borderline at best. That means we cannot write a balanced, informative article about the person. TFD (talk) 03:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    We have an article that contains this sentence:
    "In April 2011, 60 Minutes and author Jon Krakauer accused Mortenson of fabrication in his non-fiction books and of financial improprieties at his charity Central Asia Institute."
    I suspect that particular interview provided a lot of "reliable information about someone" that wasn't "what they have said" about themselves.
    The problem with condemning a format is that the format isn't the determining factor for reliability. It's like saying "Video doesn't provide any reliable information" or "Magazines aren't reliable sources". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Interviews can be reliable, but that's a separate question from notability. They can't be used to establish "GNG" notability, as they are not independent and thats what that part of policy asks for. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Would not this fail wp:n as they are only notable for one event (the interview)? Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
In this vein, that someone was interviewed by a reliable source is a strong indicator that there should be other sources about that person, for as why would the RS chose to interview them? (this is not considering the type of news "eyewitness" interviews). If I saw a bio article using an interview as an indication of meeting the GNG, I would not rush to delete it, but if a proper BEFORE brought nothing else forward that could be used, then deletion makes sense, or otherwise ask if the interview has use elsewhere. I could this being the case of a book author, otherwise non-notable, who writes one famous book that is notable, so the interview w/ the author is easily usable to expand the book article, but not for the author themselves. Masem (t) 12:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Agree. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

IMHO under Wikipedia:How Wikipedia notability works (which IMHO is an observation of how the big fuzzy wp:notability ecosystem actually works) several factors determine it's strength of contribution towards meeting GNG-judgements. (note that I said "GNG-judgements", not "GNG", because factors besides GNG contribute to GNG judgements). Regarding format, being an interview is weaker in that respect than regular coverage. Regarding other factors, real world notability does count a bit and so a prominent selective source deciding to interview them per se contributes a bit. Another variable is to what extent the interviewer is creating coverage. For example, if the interviewer is asking the questions (maybe with giving background on them) in the areas needed to build real coverage vs. just giving the interviewee the floor with a few softball questions. Also the length and depth of the interview is another determining variable, as is the strength of the interviewer/their organization as a wiki-source. In short, all else being equal, an interview counts less but not zero. North8000 (talk) 12:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The only sources that count towards meeting GNG and WHYN are those that have IRS SIGCOV. GNG does not consider "non-GNG factors". What you seem to be talking about are judgments more appropriate for PAGEDECIDE or when editors decide there is enough presumption of achieving GNG that a page can be retained, but those shouldn't be mistaken for actually meeting GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with the premise. The argument that someone appearing on the front page of Time magazine with a full-length feature interview means nothing when it comes to WP:N "because interviews don't count" has always struck me as one that's absurd on its face, and it's always strange to see admins buy into it. Whether something is an interview matters a lot more to WP:V and the specific claim it's being used to support than notability. In some cases an interview is a promotional piece and should be treated as such, but that's not usually what we're talking about. The whole idea of WP:N is to defer to the judgment of external publications to ensure the subject has received "sufficiently significant attention". It's hard to make the argument that a feature interview does not demonstrate attention from that external publication. If someone's using it to support a claim it shouldn't support, fine, but that's a separate question. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

If a person has been interviewed by Time for a full-length feature piece, then (1) that interview will likely contain secondary coverage from the interviewer and (2) that person is highly likely to already be notable based on coverage in other sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Yep, and it also indicates significant attention from a reliable source, regardless. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Right. I don't think Joelle's point was that it doesn't indicate notability, but rather that a such an interview on its own isn't sufficient to establish notability. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
The first line says interviews "do not contribute to GNG". I don't think any one source alone is enough to establish notability (putting aside e.g. NPROF and GEOLAND), but an interview certainly "contributes" to it. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Coverage that is not independent and secondary doesn't count towards GNG. So how exactly would an interview ever qualify (apart from what I mentioned above)? JoelleJay (talk) 19:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
About Coverage that is not independent and secondary doesn't count: There are two models for GNG. Your preferred model is that an individual source must be separately evaluated for all GNG qualities; if it lacks any one of them, then the source doesn't count and can be ignored. If there are only two sources, one of which is independent and secondary but does not have SIGCOV, and the other of which is independent and has SIGCOV, but is not secondary, then both get discarded and the subject is not notable.
The other model is that all the sources, taken as a collective whole, must be evaluated together. If one source is independent and secondary, and another is independent and has SIGCOV, then all of that added up could still indicate notability. I think Rhododendrites is operating under the second model: a source that isn't sufficient by itself could still contribute a fraction towards the goal. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The "other model" is plainly incorrect, since GNG says significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. SIGCOV must be in RS that are independent of the subject. It does not say GNG is met by the subject having "significant, independent, and reliable coverage" overall. JoelleJay (talk) 21:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I know that's the model you support. Can you believe that other editors support the "plainly incorrect" model? And, for better or worse, their vote at AFD counts just as much as yours. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The passage of GNG quoted here can be interpreted in such a way that "significant", "reliable", and "independent" are qualities that are entirely present or absent, A or not-A. They can also be interpreted as qualities that may be present in varying degrees. By the latter interpretation, a source that gives clearly significant coverage and is typically regarded as reliable but is only partially intependent of the subject might be considered to contribute to notability, especially if accompanied by another source that is fully independent of the subject and entirely reliable but which provides limited (and therefore debatably "significant") coverage of that subject.
Whatever any editor might want to say about this more nuanced approach, that it is "plainly incorrect" is a claim that runs counter to a significant tendency of community sentiment (and therefore, a claim demanding either some qualification, or support beyond just "I read GNG this way"). I think it is always safer to assume that competing interpretations are possible than to assume that a P&G bears only one interpretation. Newimpartial (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
This isn't just "I read GNG this way". The only logical reading of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject is that the significant coverage must be in reliable, independent sources. JoelleJay (talk) 18:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
You're entitled to your opinion on that point, but what I'm really asking is: Can you genuinely make yourself believe that your opinion is not universally held? Can you imagine a world in which other people – for apparently inexplicable and possibly bad reasons – don't happen to agree with you on that particular point? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
To me it seems clear that significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject can logically mean coverage that is (to some degree) significant, in sources that are (at least to a reasonable extent) reliable, and that have (at least some) independence from the subject. This seems at least as plausible to me as the assumption that "significant", "reliable" and "independent" each has some a fixed signification of some kind or other, which either is or is not satisfied by a given source in a binary fashion.
Also, I should make the more fundamental point that the passage quoted is ambiguous about whether the "significant" coverage is assessed after adding together sources based on their reliability and independence (is the resulting information significant, in a sense relevant to an encyclopaedia), or is each source required to offer a degree of what is elsewhere called "depth", individually. Different passages of our P&Gs weigh in different directions, in assessing what interpretation might be more plausible. Newimpartial (talk) 20:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
...How??? How do you read that sentence and think "reliable sources that are independent of the subject" doesn't actually mean the sources need to meet the "reliable" and "independent of the subject" criteria defined immediately after? JoelleJay (talk) 21:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
It sounds like @Newimpartial is making a binary-vs-spectrum distinction. Instead of seeing the GNG's named qualities as black or white point – either wholly yes or wholly no, with an unbridgeable divide between the two – we should see them as qualities that are present to greater or lesser degrees in each source. For example, if the source is only WP:SECONDARYINPART, maybe that's still secondary enough for GNG purposes, even though it's not entirely secondary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
And yet that is not at all supported by the wording of GNG or in practice at AfD. Also the contention that the GNG definitions of "reliable" and "independent" themselves encompass a spectrum is different from the assertion that "reliable sources that are independent of the subject" somehow means that "reliable sources" (as defined) do not have to be "independent" (as defined). In the former scenario one would be making the case that an individual source is sufficiently independent/reliable such that it could qualify towards GNG (i.e. it is a "reliable source that is independent"). The latter interpretation just wholly elides the subordinate clause relationship in the sentence.
Your SECONDARY example also assumes that "my" interpretation of GNG considers "source" to refer exclusively to the publisher or author of a piece and therefore that I would classify e.g. an interview containing substantial secondary analysis as fully primary. But obviously you know this is untrue given my (and everyone else here with "my" interpretation's) prior statements, and furthermore your scenario is still based around assessing an individual source for qualities that let it count towards GNG. Again, that is different from the claims being made upthread that a source that is acknowledged not to be reliable/independent/SIGCOV and thus not contributory towards GNG on its own would nevertheless become contributory if paired with another source--even one with deficits itself. Adding a new source does not transform an unreliable or non-independent source into a reliable independent source, and their join does not create reliable sources that are independent of the subject. JoelleJay (talk) 02:13, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
To answer your question, none of the criteria defined immediately after have a strict, A or not-A, definition. In fact, the contrary is implied by the explanation of "sources" -There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected. (emphases added). Newimpartial (talk) 22:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
What definitions of "reliable source" and "independent source" are conditional on the existence of other sources such that (source that is too non-independent on its own to count towards GNG) + (source that is too unreliable on its own to count towards GNG) = (reliable sources that are independent of the subject). JoelleJay (talk) 02:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I am trying to answer your question, which seems to me oddly framed - the conditional aspect in my reading arises at the level of all sources taken together, not at the level of the individual source. I will try to explain by analogy:
analogy

Imagine first that significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject is a significant quantity/quality of independent coverage in reliable sources. (I'm setting aside the required "amount" of significance to make the rest of the example more manageable.) Then imagine that independence and reliability are qualities that can be assessed on a scale from 0 to 10. As a forced example, let's imagine an academic - I know we actually use PROF for this category, but this whole discussion has been in a zone of forced examples, and this is what my brain could come up with as an explanation.

The academic's ABOUTSELF tweet could be evaluated as 0 independence and 3 reliability; their profile in a student newspaper could have 7 independence and 3 reliability, and their published entry on their employer's website could have 3 independence and 7 reliability.

The way I might assess (in this analogy), would be to perform (analogocal) operations. I'd "multiply" independence by reliability - the result is that I'd "throw out" the tweet as a zero, while the student paper profile and the university website would each "count" as 21.

That would give me two sources with an imaginary "total score" of 42 and a "range" of 3-7 for independence and similar range for source reliability - the same score as be achieved by a single source with reliability 6 and independence 7 (like, say, a profile in a good local newspaper), and the upper end of the range for each quality is also roughly the same. This feels about right to me. In an overall evaluation, I would want to ensure both that the amount/significance of content was sufficient and also that at least one source was high enough in reliability and at least one high enough in independence (7+?) - though these need not be the same source.

By contrast, the approach to this scenario that I'd call "binary" would establish a cutoff - say at "5" in my imaginary scales - and would not count any sources that have less than 5 in any quality. (Extreme readings of GNG would also require a minimium of depth per source, like CORP does, but my example doesn't need to depict that.) So the "binary" approach would throw out the tweet as failing both critetia, throw out the student paper profile as featuring in an unreliable source and throw out the website as non-independent. By contrast, it would potentially pass the "good local newspaper" profile on both counts.

To be clear, my point in this analogy is not to make any claims about one approach being "right" and another being "wrong", but simply to show that there are different ways of approaching the evaluation of sources towards notability. Newimpartial (talk) 11:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I think you might be the only editor who believes a non-independent or non-reliable source can contribute to GNG whatsoever. While I appreciate your taking the time to write out an example, I do hope it is wholly facetious and doesn't reflect your ideas of what is acceptable sourcing. A student newspaper is never independent of anything involving its school (per essentially unanimous consensus at RSN and as reflected at RSP): it has 0 independence, therefore its reliability is irrelevant because it does not count towards GNG. An employer profile also has 0 independence, so again, does not count toward GNG. A source either is or isn't reliable (etc.) for the purposes of contributing to GNG, which you seem to recognize at some level since you assigned a 0 independence to the tweet. So the problem seems to be that you think the cutoff is at the theoretical extreme minimum for each parameter, while anything epsilon "better" still counts even when it's below the bright-line threshold everyone else uses. And because your minimum is so low you have to invent some matrix multiplication approach to evaluating GNG where the clearly-separate dimensions of IRS can interact within and between sources to create a product that meets your personal standard of independent, secondary, reliable, and SIGCOV enough. Under this model a reliably-published biography by the subject's spouse + the subject's employer profile would presumably satisfy GNG, which is ludicrous. JoelleJay (talk) 21:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Also the first line says interviews do not contribute to GNG except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer. JoelleJay (talk) 02:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
If the only info about a person you can get from a source is what they say about themselves, how can you possibly meet NPOV? Interviews may be an indicator of attention, but they are clearly not IRS coverage for the purposes of GNG/WHYN. JoelleJay (talk) 19:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
If the information you have about a person is significant, in-depth, and written in the third person by someone who based their content entirely on a separately-published interview with the subject, what magic does that third-person grammar and second-hand publication bring to the subject relative to the original interview? Why do you care about its format rather than its content and provenance? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
If the content is entirely from an interview, then it lacks secondary analysis and fails on that front as well. We need someone independently discussing what an interviewee said to help establish that that info is BALASP, to provide external context and analysis, and (hopefully) to fact-check its accuracy. Why would we want a biography if it only contained the details the subject chose to share about themselves? Isn't the absence of anyone unaffiliated talking about that person or their work, in their own words, the ultimate indicator that they aren't actually encyclopedically notable? JoelleJay (talk) 21:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
As I understand your response here, you are defining encyclopedic notability by your interpretation of GNG and then asking whether that definition is the same as being "actually encyclopedically notable". Either that is circular reasoning (in this encyclopedia, that is how we generally define "notability", so yes, they are tautologically the same) or it is obviously false (we could imagine defining criteria for inclusion in an encyclopedia in many other ways, and there is no particular reason for thinking of our definition here as "ultimate").
But to return to the topic at hand: If we have a 30-page interview with the subject, by a historian, about their life, then it's likely to contain a lot of usable information. If we have only promotional interviews with the subject about the book that they just wrote, then it's likely to be almost entirely useless fluff. If the first kind of interview gets turned into a third-person biography instead of being published verbatim as an interview, then it's a third-person biography of a type we typically use as a source.
If we define notability to mean "there exist in-depth sources that we trust to be accurate enough", then we should base that trust on content and provenance, not on format. But I would also dispute that as being our definition. We don't generally allow local-newspaper profiles of the beloved traffic warden who has been guarding the same crosswalk for 20 years to count towards notability. Why not? They may well be in-depth and trustworthy, but we just don't think a local traffic warden is a significant enough topic for an article. The problem is that we are conflating two different meanings of notability, the internal-to-Wikipedia jargon of having adequate sources to support what we write and the colloquial one of having enough significance to be worthy of inclusion. An interview may or may not contribute to sourceability depending on its nature. It may or may not contribute to significance depending on its nature. But blanket statements that interviews are unusable come across as dogmatism replacing thoughtfulness. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Your comment leads me to think about the definition of notability (also reliable). On the one hand, this guideline provides a definition in the first sentence: On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article. On the other hand, a lot of editors think that the test isn't what it says on the tin – namely, whatever editors decide about whether a given topic warrants its own article – but whether the subject matches certain enumerated rules (e.g., GNG, PROF, GEOLAND, etc.).
Compare:
notable
A quality possessed by subjects which meet certain enumerated rules, most particularly a rule requiring significant coverage (including some analysis, comparison, context-setting, or other types of 'secondary source' coverage) of the subject in at least two independent reliable sources.
notable
A topic that Wikipedia editors have decided to permit an article about. This decision is generally made by considering the number and quality of independent reliable sources available, but they're technically allowed to make any decision they want, on any basis they want, as long as they agree.
There is a similar difficulty with reliable source:
reliable source
A published source that has most of the following desirable qualities: a reputation for fact-checking, accuracy, and/or issuing corrections as needed; not self-published; Wikipedia editors deem it appropriate for the material in question; neither the author nor the publisher have a financial or other type of conflict of interest with the subject matter; the decision to publish is made by suitable professionals (e.g., a newspaper or journal editor).
reliable source
A published source that editors will actually accept as a citation for a given bit of material in an article. This sometimes excludes sources that have all of the aforementioned desirable qualities, and it so frequently includes sources with none of them that we have created slews of templates such as {{cite twitter}}, {{cite press release}}, {{cite Instagram}}, {{cite patent}}, and more.
If you are using the first definition(s), then you will be confused by editors using the second. I'm pretty sure that JoelleJay is using the first, and I'm pretty sure that some other editors are leaning a bit towards the second. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Tangentially, I've never liked that opening line: On Wikipedia, notability is a test... No, it's not a test; it's the quality that we try to test for. XOR'easter (talk) 04:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I'm also not fond of that sentence, and I don't think it serves us (or inexperienced editors) very well. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I changed "test" to "concept" and was thanked twice but was reverted on the basis of a 2011 discussion. I don't think a thread from over a decade ago that breezes past the word choice in question can actually outweigh the point that "test for" makes no logical sense, but whatever. XOR'easter (talk) 00:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Well, @XOR'easter, according to BRD, Peter Gulutzan has thereby identified himself as your Very Interested Person. Maybe take it to a new section? This one's already got well over a hundred comments in it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I have two arguments: 1. That the content in interviews that is derived from the interviewee is not IRS SIGCOV due to failing independence and being primary (per policy). 2. That the choice to interview a subject is not IRS SIGCOV due to failing literally every criterion of IRS SIGCOV. In both cases the prominence of the interviewing source is irrelevant to GNG since prestige is not a GNG criterion and does not transform non-independent into independent or primary into secondary. The details in an autobiography commissioned by a prominent publisher don't become independent secondary coverage just because they were subject to editorial control (and actually far, far more of it than what we'd get from an NYT interview), so why would we treat the same details published as part of an interview any differently? The latter might correlate with more secondary indy content from the interviewer being in the interview, as I think is implied by your historian-interviewer scenario, but that's not what we're talking about (that's already acknowledged to contribute to GNG if significant).
Therefore, the assertion that either (1) interviewee content or (2) "chosen to be interviewed" can or should count towards establishing notability would have to rely on a path other than GNG and WHYN. The only other applicable guideline in this context is ANYBIO, resting on the claim that "chosen to be interviewed" qualifies as a well-known and significant award or honor. I contend that this is facially ludicrous given that numerous awards and honors far more prestigious than getting interviewed, by any outlet, are by consensus not sufficient for ANYBIO (including winning an Olympic gold medal).
The alternative is to assert that (2) isn't meant to establish notability but rather serves as an indicator that notability-grant sourcing exists somewhere. This position, in an AfD, should be treated exactly the same as any other indications of notability people might invoke -- as much weaker arguments than demonstrable lack of sourcing.
If we define notability to mean "there exist in-depth sources that we trust to be accurate enough", then we should base that trust on content and provenance, not on format. The GNG emphasizes that "in-depth" and "reliable" sources are not sufficient for a standalone article (and especially a non-academic bio): sources must be secondary and independent as well in order to comply with NOR and NPOV policy, and furthermore must comply with NOT. The major bulwarks against "traffic warden" bios are NOPAGE (which would be the avenue through which such a subject would lose a page on the basis of "not being encyclopedic enough" despite having multiple GNG profiles in local sources), NOTNEWS (as local profiles can be routine human-interest stories), and non-independence (because local sources on a figure who is locally prominent may have more CoI with the subject).
"Actually encyclopedically notable" should be read as my approval of defining notability by the existence of IRS SIGCOV on the topic and compliance with NOT, for reasons that should be evident from my last two sentences and which are consistent with the classic concept of an encyclopedia. JoelleJay (talk) 22:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
If you are going to respond to my claims that this approach is too dogmatic and unthoughtful by a pile of Wikipedia initialism buzzwords, I don't think further engagement on this issue is likely to be any more productive. Those shortcuts are a distillation of the past experience and thought of Wikipedia editors, but they are not an adequate substitute for thought when we are trying to discuss what our guidance should be. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I believe that her question is focused on whether it conforms to the letter of the law, rather than whether it is consistent with general principles and values. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
We are discussing what our guidance currently is, according to the language in our P&Gs and as practiced at AfD. What gave you the impression that this was ever intended as some meta-discussion on the general concept of independence and interviews or an attempt to create de novo guidance outside the context of Wikipedia rules? And even so, I have given non-Wikipedia-based justifications for why interviews shouldn't be counted; you still haven't explained Why would we want a biography if it only contained the details the subject chose to share about themselves? Do you really think a person whose life and/or work has never been discussed in detail in RS by unrelated journalists or academics should have a standalone encyclopedia article at all, let alone one where all the info comes directly from them? JoelleJay (talk) 01:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I think the usual idea of "unrelated journalists" is that they're deciding a given thing is worth our time. For example:
  • Alice Actress posts on social media that she was born on Octember 32, 2001.
  • Alice Actress tells Jo Journalist that she was born on Octember 32, 2001, and Jo Journalist writes that in their next magazine article, "Actress lands lead role in the next Oscar contender".
  • Alice Actress is interviewed by Ray Radio, and says in the interview that she was born on Octember 32, 2001.
We treat all of these as basically equal. We assume they ultimately came from the same source. We declare the social media post to be non-independent, the magazine article to be independent (and GNG-worthy), and the radio interview to be a little awkward to classify, but nobody really thinks that this kind of information is being carefully checked, or that the resulting Wikipedia biography is going to contain something other than "the details the subject chose to share about themselves". After all, Alice could have decided not to volunteer this information, or could have sniffed that "a lady never tells", or could have answered a question that wasn't being asked ("Isn't the age discrimination in this industry terrible? Let me tell you about all the older women actresses I really admire..."). If we have that information, it's almost always because "the subject chose to share" it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
If we have that information, it's almost always because "the subject chose to share" it. That's not true at all. People who do noteworthy things are reported on in the context of those noteworthy things. We should always be able to create an article that demonstrates why we care about the subject without any substantive material coming from the subject. Trivial biographical details like birthdate shouldn't count as "coverage" regardless of where they're cited. JoelleJay (talk) 20:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
“a 30-page interview with the subject“ has no chance of coming without any contextualisation, no introduction and no wrap up comments. The interview-proper cannot be counted as on of the two GNG sources. The historian’s introduction and comment, that sure can, even if in the same publication. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
  • I too reject the OP's assertion that "there is very broad acceptance that interviews do not contribute to GNG". Here's a couple of examples. There's a famous BBC Radio programme, Desert Island Discs, which has an interview format in which the subject talks around their choice of music. To be selected for this is a significant honour and the subject commonly gives some good insights into their career. To dismiss such a respectable source in a blanket way is ridiculous.
    As another example, I've noticed that GLAM institutions often collect and publish interviews as a form of oral history. For example, see The West Point Oral History Center which I came across when writing Doris "Lucki" Allen. The respectability of such institutions again gives then good standing.
    Andrew🐉(talk) 21:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    Are you claiming that being on Desert Island Discs would at least partially satisfy ANYBIO...? Or that an interview merely being held by an academic institution imparts notability on the subject? How would those satisfy GNG (disregarding any IRS background info on the subject, which would already qualify towards GNG)? JoelleJay (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    User:Andrew Davidson, are you confusing “does not count as one of two GNG-compliant sources” with “blanket” dismissal? You seem to be.
    Doris Ilda Allen has non-interview independent sources. Therefore this example fails the premise of the question. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Long interviews and well prepared interviews especially, do often provide independent information in how questions are asked or in statements made by the interviewer. Sometimes it is called 'the set up': 'In 1977, you were at the ----- where ----- can you tell me if you think that that caused ----,' etc. etc. That said, I think there is some truth that many (most?) (almost all?) subjects of such interviews are likely otherwise well sourced, too. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with you, and I believe that this would fall under what JoelleJay describes as "secondary independent commentary by the interviewer" in the original comment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps, but I think some forget (or don't see) that it can also be in the question. And the idea that such questions can never be significant is wrong. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I completely agree with you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I mean, I don't think something like 'In 1977, you were at the ----- where should be considered anything more than trivial coverage of the subject, but yeah, in some cases the questions might also contain enough prose commentary by the interviewer that it constitutes independent secondary SIGCOV. But such interviews would already be exempt. And really what I'm talking about is the declaration that merely being chosen as an interview subject somehow itself is IRS SIGCOV or meets ANYBIO. JoelleJay (talk) 23:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Really? (I'm not sure why you forgot, and 'that caused . . .', or that that something happening 'at . . .' in 1977 may somehow be quite significant.) That you assume it would not matter when such indications coming from the interviewer have significance, is your problem, here. You talk as if you assume that "being selected" or "being chosen" will be a mystery. But not only will it not usually be a mystery, depending on the interviewing style, it will reveal the publications independent, in depth valuation of significance. And in that, the publisher's purpose, weight or reputation or reach will be its own consideration for us. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:10, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I assumed the rest of that sentence just went into details that didn't cover the subject directly and in detail, e.g. a question like "In 2015, you were at the Bataclan attack, can you tell me if you think that that caused islamophobia to spike in the area". If you meant for it to represent a few sentences of real coverage of the subject then that would be fine. But the crux of the issue here is that publisher reputation/reach/intent should not affect evaluation of GNG since GNG criteria are strictly concerned with the depth of independent secondary coverage. Those softer metrics should only come into play when doing PAGEDECIDE or when an AfD consensus develops to waive immediately demonstrating GNG with the expectation that those metrics sufficiently predict GNG coverage existing offline/elsewhere. They don't impart or presume notability themselves, else we could have articles solely based on announcements for interviews that took place but were never published. JoelleJay (talk) 21:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Odd, in much of the discussion you assume that the interviewee is the subject of the interview, so it is strange that you would then shift your assumption to interviewer would not be talking about the subject. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
The interviewee can be the subject of the interview without the questions they are asked containing coverage of them... It's pretty common for questions to be asking the subject's opinion on something external. JoelleJay (talk) 18:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
  • I'm inclined to what Rhododendrites and Andrew Davidson have said. To say that a long-form interview in a publication agreed to generally be reliable doesn't count at all toward establishing notability strains plain understanding. Someone who gets a long-form interview with NPR or the BBC or such about themselves/what they do is plainly more notable, in the sense we use it on Wikipedia, than someone who doesn't, all else being equal. Of course, if the interview is the only source from a generally reliable publication we have about the topic, then the topic doesn't meet WP:GNG. But if the source wasn't an interview but was instead a feature article written in third-person prose, we would say the same thing. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 21:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    But how would being chosen as an interview subject count towards GNG at all? "Being selected" for something certainly isn't what "notable" means in the sense we (our P&Gs) use it on Wikipedia, where the definition explicitly requires published independent coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 01:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    Because the guideline also explicitly says Wikipedia articles cover notable topics—those that have gained sufficiently significant attention by the world at large. "Being selected" is evidence of "attention by the world at large", and if the subject is selected for an in-depth discussion by a prominent source, then it's probably "sufficiently significant atttention", too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    Being “selected” to help make content for a for-profit media organisation is not a good indicator if that’s all there is. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    If we disqualify sources because the publisher believed they'd make a profit from them, we'd disqualify a lot more than interviews. XOR'easter (talk) 03:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    XOR'easter. It's perfectly ok for the publisher to make money from publishing the interview, as long as that money does not come from the subject.
    "The subject paid for the publication" is a very good reason to disqualify a source from being one of the two required GNG sources.
    NB. This language for WP:N that we are discussing is for the target quality, that all articles have at least two independent sources. Guidelines should be written to describe good practice, not the absolute minimum ever accepted. If some articles get through because the GNG sources are not fully independent, that can be tolerated. What should not be tolerated is WP:N telling newcomers that they can use interviews most probably paid for by the subject (or their company) to pass the GNG, which at AfD means a strong indication that it will be kept. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know about the idea thatGuidelines should be written to describe good practice, not the absolute minimum ever accepted. We have a problem with statements about "good practice" or what editors "should normally do" being turned into "absolutely mandatory with no exceptions".
    I'd worry more about WP:N telling newcomers that they can use interviews most probably paid for by the subject if you could put a reliable source or two after that claim. If this is normal practice, then surely someone's got a website up that says what the prices are for getting into various magazines? There are all kinds of websites saying how much different websites are willing to pay freelance writers for articles. Where's a website that says "if you want to get an interview published about WhatamIdoing's Gas Station in Gas-n-Go Magazine or in the Lake Wobegone News–Press, it'll cost US$250 in fees"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    "Guidelines should be written to describe good practice". I'm surprised if you haven't heard of it. It's an old mantra for guideline writing. It was back when if policy didn't match practice, the documentation of policy was updated to match, but not to the point of documenting bad practice as if it is OK.
    "Good practice" being turned into "absolutely mandatory with no exceptions" is something you have been talking about for some time, and maybe I should take more care of a possibility that you argue for minimum rules against my arguing for good practice.
    Newspapers that don't disclose supplied content will not be publishing their terms for publishing it. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    Most newspapers and magazines don't publish their freelance rates on their websites, either, and yet multiple websites have collected and published that information. If nobody knows which places will do this, or how much they charge to remove the "Paid Advertisement" tag, then they'll have a hard time making those sales. For US newspapers, I can understand the reluctance to do so, given that it'd be a federal violation per https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/native-advertising-guide-businesses In fact, maybe instead of making unsubstantiated claims that you believe this to be happening, you should start filing complaints with the FTC? There's a nice big blue button at the top of that page, or you can go straight to https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:37, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    I don’t want to get specific, but I have not been talking about American newspapers.
    Should WP:N document best practice, good practice, or minimally tolerable practice? Or all three? Maybe guidelines should document all three. AfD makes decisions on what is minimally good enough, and AfC reviewers often used to demand a much higher bar (eg declines for not using inline citations in BLPs).
    An interview published in an online newspaper, of no particularly good reputation, with no actual evidence of non-independence, is probably good enough to pass AfD with a “no consensus to delete”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
    GNG says absolutely nothing about that. You are referring to other parts of WP:N, apparently while ignoring other guidance that indicate coverage is ultimately required, e.g. If the subject has not been covered outside of Wikipedia, no amount of improvement to the Wikipedia content will suddenly make the subject notable. JoelleJay (talk) 21:11, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Question: Could someone give a few examples of cases where we would need to use an interview to establish Notability? I am having difficulty thinking of a case where there wouldn’t already be sufficient coverage in other sources. Blueboar (talk) 22:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I can imagine. Say with a long history museum interview. That you don't want people to say without consideration, it can't possibly matter to N. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Based on past discussions, I believe this mostly comes up in the music/entertainment subjects. The interviews aren't necessarily at the level of The Rolling Stone Interview, and the publications probably won't have the audience reach of The Oprah Winfrey Show, but the format of an interview is popular for some subjects, so we often find a recorded interview and a mini-performance with a musician. The prose articles might not have the depth.
Also, to echo what some of the recent comments have said, an author who was interviewed for Oprah's Book Club back in the day really was getting "attention from the world at large", as it would not be extraordinary for 10 million people to watch that interview. Adweek tells me that there are no TV news shows that bring in those numbers now. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Following up on the question of when/how much this happens: A quick search of ~540K AFDs indicates that a bit more than 5% of AFDs have mentioned the word interview (at all, in any context, including those that are not relevant to discussions about notability). I'd rate that as neither very common nor as rare. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
5%? I’d rate that as the low end of common. I believe it means that on passing through 14 random AfDs, you would have a better than even chance of encountering the word “interview”.
Google top of page tells me that i-base.info/AQ/812 defines common as 1% to 10%.
Anecdotally, I associate weak attempts to cite interviews for notability with promotional BLP draft submissions to AfC. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
You're talking about 540K AfDs on people, right? Since obviously in AfDs on other topics interviews would be much less relevant and therefore it would be misleading to include them.
Among 30,022 AfDs containing the string "sportspeople", 5,538 (18%) also have "interview". "Musicians" is 7,919/36,250 (22%). "Politician" is 4,504/13,770 (32%). "Actors and filmmakers" is 6,213/25,332 (24.5%). JoelleJay (talk) 18:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
No, I didn't filter for AFDs about people, because I don't know of any reliable way to do it. Also, interviews come up in AFDs about businesses. 30% of AFDs containing "Corp" also mention interviews. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Looking at the numbers a little more closely, for CORP subjects, about 14% of AFDs result in "keep", but almost twice that many result in "keep" if an interview is mentioned in the AFD discussion. The delete percentages stay almost the same, so perhaps interviews tip the subject from "no consensus" or "merge" into "keep". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I find it very unlikely that someone would be interviewed by a reliable source (whether about themselves or on some other topic) unless they were already notable. So at a minimum, the existence of the interview should indicate that a more thorough BEFORE search is called for. other sources probably exist. Blueboar (talk) 19:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I come across routine interviews of athletes in local news all the time, no way is it an indication of notability with any reasonable predictive power. JoelleJay (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
You can't seriously be drawing causal relationships based on the frequency of a word in AfDs... I'm also not seeing how you got those numbers, since 
insource:/(CORP)/ insource: "result was" "interview"
yields 234/1,459 (16%) keeps, compared to 
insource: "result was" insource:/(CORP)/
with 3,032/23,259 (13%) keeps. JoelleJay (talk) 19:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Start with this search string:
"result was delete" CORP interview -intitle:Log prefix:Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion
My notes say that I found 395 delete (54%) and 197 keep (27%) out of 726 total with 'interview' compared to 6291 delete (55%) and 1550 keep (14%) out of 11396 without interview. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Something is very off about those numbers. They are too low. You're returning things that just have "corp" in any context but excluding relevant items like "NCORP" and "CORPDEPTH" and anything where CORP only appears in a wikilink. Using the AfD search bar, 
insource:/(CORP)/ insource: "result was" interview -intitle:Log
returns 356/2271 (15.7%) keep, versus 3032/23,254 without (13%) "interview". (On this search page you also don't need to have -intitle:Log, removing it doesn't change anything useful). JoelleJay (talk) 21:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Your second set of numbers includes the 2,271 AFDs that contain the word interview. The second set of numbers should be 2,676/20,984 (12.7%). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
This happens constantly in sportsperson discussions. Here's one I was linked to recently as evidence that "having been interviewed" counts toward notability, here's one where a bunch of Q&A interviews were alleged to satisfy GNG (but thankfully the closer clarified The argument that interviews are admissible is an oversimplification; interviews may count toward GNG when they have intellectually independent content), another where a different closer stated I am more persuaded by the delete arguments around the necessity of independent sourcing for a BLP then keep arguments that articles that are basically interviews are independent. The types of interviews editors cite are like this and this and this. If they don't have significant independent secondary commentary they shouldn't matter to GNG, regardless of where they're published. High-quality interviews in prestigious papers might indicate notability, but the fact that the subjects are often already notable through other sources, or that the interviews do contain IRS SIGCOV background, is absolutely not the same as the interviewee's statements about themselves being independent and secondary. JoelleJay (talk) 23:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I suspect that The Confessions of Winifred Wagner (an interview in the form of a documentary film) contributes strongly to the notability of Winifred Wagner which might otherwise be dismissed as WP:NOTINHERITED, as an example. I also suspect that any answer Blueboar's request for "cases where we would need to use an interview" can always be explained away as either not being the only contribution to notability, or as the subject being non-notable through WP:BIO1E because the interview is the only contribution. The real question should not be for cases where an interview is a make-or-break piece of evidence for notability, but where it is a significant contributor to notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't think just the fact that Wagner had a five-hour film interview about her is itself relevant to notability in WP terms; that the film is itself notable through GNG/NFILM -- and necessarily should have secondary coverage of Wagner, given the topic -- is what counts. I also suspect there is significant secondary content in either the film or its accompanying materials.
There are plenty of instances where multiple interviews are put forth as satisfying GNG and are the only nontrivial sources of coverage. These are routinely rejected at AfD per WP:PRIMARY and INDY, as they should be. That doesn't stop some editors from continuing to insist that things like this are IRS SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 01:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
SIGCOV for which subject? For the team, which the interviewer says screwed up their recruiting schedule and had a lousy season start? Maybe. For the interviewee, who says nothing about himself, and about whom the interviewer says nothing? No. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Obviously we are talking about about the interviewee. Though there certainly isn't IRS SIGCOV of the team either. JoelleJay (talk) 21:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Exactly. Examples have been asked for before. The concept is illogical.
Interviews (interviews proper, interviews do not include the introduction of post-interview commentary) should be simply stated to be not suitable for meeting the GNG, but may well be excellent for providing reliable content. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
No. As I have indicated above, your limitations of before and after are ham handed. Moreover, the issue is never the single interview publication alone. Now perhaps, if you and the OP want to come up with a workable definition of "routine interview" or "routine journalist interview" (leaving historians out to be considered ad hoc) that is actually sensitive to various factors of various participant here, perhaps you could get consensus for that. (from the above you should also consider including weight of the publication, limiting to 'celebrity, sports, music' and how even in those subjects there could be interviews that break the mold.) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
We are not on the same page, are we? I’m not sure what you are talking about, limitations “before and after”, but my best guess, distinguishing between a question and answer interview, and the interviewers comments before or after, I do not see how you would called it ham fisted. The different parts are obvious to identify. But most seriously, I have been reading this as cases where the ONLY independent sources are interviews, close perspective question and answer interviews. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I’ve re-read the original post, now with bold edits. I agree with the OP. I suggest: “question and answer interviews of the subject are not independent and cannot pass the GNG”.
However, maybe “interview” is not needed. How about “statements by the subject are not independent of the subject”.
There is some fair point about a reputable journalist or TV show or magazine or newspaper, in choosing to interview the subject, and in choosing the publish the interview, that this in itself is evidence of notability. Has this line ever worked at AfD? SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:00, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
What about "the reputation of the independent organization conducting the interview may indicate that suitable coverage exists elsewhere, but the fact that a subject was interviewed does not itself contribute to demonstrating notability"? JoelleJay (talk) 21:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Sure. My point was we can't treat all interviews the same. In certain types of interviews among and in the questions, there is information independent, provided by the interviewer. I went into this in more detail above at beginning at 21:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break (interviews)

If they are notable, other RS would have noticed them. So use those, if their only notability comes from one incident, they are not notable. Slatersteven (talk) 10:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

One incident is already covered. I think they are looking to create a guideline specific to interviews, which would always need to be considered with other sources. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:11, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, that is my point, this is already covered. This looks like an attempt to create an SNG just to make sure we can have articles that cover people who are only notable for one interview. Because if it its not, then we do not need it. As is it a fix looking for a problem. Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
@Slatersteven, many people are insisting that Q&A interviews constitute IRS SIGCOV and therefore count toward GNG, which necessarily means they would consider 2+ interviews at different times about different topics to satisfy GNG even in the absence of any secondary independent SIGCOV commentary. Some other people are saying that the simple fact an outlet chose to interview someone helps satisfy notability. Neither of these positions is supported by our current P&Gs, and so the status of interviews should be clarified. JoelleJay (talk) 21:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The word "interview" does not even appear in Wikipedia:Notability, so any judgement that interviews do or do not count must be supported by other factors. The position that most interviews do not count towards notability of the interviewee is well supported by the requirement of independence in GNG-relevant sourcing. However, the position that interviews can count sometimes but rarely is supported by the existence of publications formatted as interviews that include independent content.
I think that a lot of the heat in this discussion has come from a lack of clarity on whether we are talking about things that are usually true or things that are true without exception. The issue is clouded further by the clear fact that an interview of an expert on some topic of their expertise can generally count towards notability of the topic (rather than the expert) and by comments that do not clearly distinguish between what GNG actually says, what editors think it means, and what they think it should say. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Agree. To help focus the discussion, I thought to look at what edit would be proposed. WP:N is silent on interviews. The word “interview” could be added to:
* "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, interviews, and the subject's website are not considered independent.
I think it can be take as assumed that the interviewee as the subject is implied, and occasional exceptions may apply. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we can't take anything as assumed, because it will be weaponized. We might be able to say something like "all statements about the subject, made by the subject, including in interviews, on social media..."
Here's another question: Imagine an ideal news article about a subject (e.g., a politician). The article quotes four people, including the politician and the main opponent in the next election. The politician's quotes (all of them added together) make up 10% of the article. The opponent's quotes make up another 10% of the article. How much of that article "counts" as WP:INDY? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I probably should worry more about where you are leading me with these random riddles, because I don’t know. The GNG requires two independent sources, reliable with significant coverage. Having achieved that, WP:N doesn’t care about independent content in the article. WP:V cares about independently sourced content where the content is questionable of likely to be challenged. WP:N shouldn’t try to speak for WP:V.
When it comes to politicians, I prefer to upweight books published no sooner than ten after the politician’s death.
I think you worry overly about weaponisation. Maybe it’s a concern for community welfare, but I don’t recall ever seeing weaponised wikilawyering winning battles, in all my time at DRV. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
One of the problems at AFD is editors saying that a very long source can be disqualified by a small part of its contents. "This one paragraph repeats basic facts that can also be found in a company press release, so the whole source is non-independent!" I don't think you (or, more to the point, the overall community) would agree with this POV, but if nearly all of a source is demonstrably a copy of a press release, then we will reject it as Churnalism.
So where's the dividing line? If 10% is quotes from the subject, or 20% is quotes from people with a vested interest in the subject, is that "too much"? What if it's 50%? Or 80%? If you have an interview that is 20% introductory content, 30% questions from the interviewer, and 50% answers from the subject, does that source 'count'? Does any part of that source count?
It's obviously silly to say that if this gets published in a magazine, it counts towards notability:
"When asked, Bob Business said that he was planning an expansion of the widget-making factory, with the goal of becoming the largest widget maker in the region."
but if the same information is presented in an interview format, in the same magazine, then it doesn't:
Question: "Bob, what are your plans?"
Answer: "I'm planning an expansion of the widget-making factory, with the goal of becoming the largest widget maker in the region."
However, it's IMO not so silly to say that a source that is 90% quotes from the subject is not really what we're looking for. It might well be an independent choice to give air time/column inches to this subject instead of a different subject, but what we're getting is not really independent content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
AfD is a learning institution. It is good to hear wrong thoughts can be freely aired there. The question is whether others correct them. Does this guideline serve as a useful backup? Wikipedians should not be required to study all policy and guidelines before participating at AfD.
You have asked a question based around percentages. I think that’s a mistake, and that the question should be based on word count of independent information. I like the WP:100WORDS threshold. If the story contains 100 words of independent transformational comment, I don’t care how long the interview is. More primary source data does not invalidate the threshold content of secondary source comment. I think it is easier to count words than to talk about column inches or air time.
Here at WP:N, I’ll say we should leave it to WP:PSTS and WP:NPOV to address issues of balances. I expect there will be wild variation across different fields.
- SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I have, very recently, seen at least one editor in an AfD appear to make the claim that an article about a new venture by the subject of a biography was an interview and therefore was disallowed for notability. The article in question was in my estimation about 1/3 description of the venture, about 1/3 statements of the form "we asked the subject ..." followed by a direct quote from the subject (that is, an interview), and about 1/3 discussion with someone unrelated about whether the venture was likely to work. This is exactly the sort of weaponization in question. When editors in AfDs have a preconceived idea about which way they want the outcome to go (whether inclusionist or deletionist) they tend to stretch definitions to make the guidelines seem closer to their position and so it behooves us to head that off as much as possible. (It happens that I think the source in question should be excluded as overly promotional, but not because it is an interview.)
I would be ok with saying that direct statements by the subject (in interviews and wherever else) are not independent and do not count towards the depth of coverage of a source. However, it is standard in many cases for journalists to ask subjects direct questions and include their responses if they get one. For instance this happens all the time with articles about accused white-collar criminals. We should not throw away the other coverage in such articles as being tainted by the quotes. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
“direct statements by the subject (in interviews and wherever else) are not independent and do not count towards the depth of coverage of a source” sounds like maybe a consensus.
A good journalist on researching someone, before publishing, should always invite the subject to comment. The inclusion of the subject’s comments should not invalidate the journalists work. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
That's fine. Perhaps some people might be confused by direct statement ( ... is this direct, is it indirect --- when what it means is both own statements) but we can try that, and circle back if need be. Alanscottwalker (talk) Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Would something like this reflect the general POV?
"Many sources contain both primary and secondary material. In mixed sources, the secondary portions of the source still contribute towards notability."
(Feel free to suggest better wording!) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
David, I have also seen editors "stretch" definitions. Our system rewards wikilawyering and doesn't reward common sense or good judgment. If you believe that ____ is the right outcome, then you pretty much need to throw some WP:UPPERCASE into your comment, or it will be disregarded. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:23, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
And I also see editors at AfD claiming that because an interview was conducted and/or published by an independent body that any SIGCOV of the subject within it is automatically independent. Or that any amount of independent content accompanying an interview is "SIGCOV". I see this far more often than attempts at discounting the entirety of interviews that do have IRS SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Comments by the opponent in an interview are also primary and do not count... JoelleJay (talk) 18:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Interviews are mentioned three times as examples of primary sources at WP:OR. Primary sources don't count toward GNG.
I thought my stance on the status of interviews that do contain independent content should have been clear from my first sentence: I think there is very broad acceptance that interviews do not contribute to GNG EDIT: for the human interviewee except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer. and from my proposed wording: "interviews do not count towards GNG EDIT: of the interviewee unless they contain significant secondary background or analysis by the interviewer that is independent of the interview"? JoelleJay (talk) 18:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
We can't build an encyclopedia article based on one or two interviews. I don't know how an interview-based article would meet WP:V and WP:NPOV, let alone WP:GNG. This discussion has exploded very quickly, so I wanted to distill it down to the most essential problem. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I do a a lot of NPP reviews and can tell you that it's common for AFD to keep GNG-dependent articles where GNG has not been met. And having some interviews combined with other arguments like "sources probably exist" or "obviously notable" is enough. So at AFD interviews are considered to weigh in on the "keep" side even if that is not said explicitly. North8000 (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's "common", but even so, that doesn't mean interviews are being counted toward GNG or even being used to prove notability. The problem is editors claiming interviewee content does count toward GNG or that being interviewed establishes notability. JoelleJay (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
I'll also note that my impression of consensus is based on the dozens (30-40 off the top of my head) of editors just in sportsperson AfDs I've participated in or read who have expressed that non-IRS interview content does not count towards GNG. It is interesting that this discussion hasn't had input from any of them yet and is instead populated mostly by the same people who commented on the previous interview discussions. Maybe we'd actually get somewhere if the topic of how interviews are treated re:GNG at AfD wasn't just a hypothetical to most of the editors opining here? JoelleJay (talk) 03:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Sure, we can do that. Here's five AFDs from this year:
I think that if the community's consensus actually were that all interviews are always irrelevant to GNG, there wouldn't already be 164 comments in this discussion. The fact that we're discussing it suggests that it's a little more complicated than that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Note that Rugbyfan22 "accepts" an interview in an AfD for an article they created. JTtheOG (talk) 07:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, as long as there is enough independent analysis of the person being interviewed, that should be fine. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 14:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
You can't rely on the interview alone, but if the rest of the article talks about the person, I've found it to be ok. NPR will do that, where the "interview" might last an hour, but it's more of a discussion than a series of questions. Rambling, but it's factual. Oaktree b (talk) 15:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
So you literally just canvassed editors you thought would disagree with my position, in a comment that deliberately insinuates I'm proposing that all interviews are always irrelevant to GNG, and still the ones who responded all...actually seem to support my position more than they oppose it.
@JTtheOG has also stated The closest thing to WP:SIGCOV that came up in my searches was this interview, which has maybe four sentences of independent coverage. This is in line with the first sentence of my proposal: I think there is very broad acceptance that interviews do not contribute to GNG except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer.
@Clariniie who essentially just restates the first sentence: In my opinion, as long as there is enough independent analysis of the person being interviewed, that should be fine.
@Oaktree b, who has elsewhere stated Interviews don't count towards notability as they are primary sources. Presumably they tailored their comment to the interviews being discussed in that AfD rather than explaining the nuances of interviews re:GNG in general.
@Spiderone has elsewhere said I don't speak Lithuanian but it sounds like a direct interview with the player herself. Anything coming directly out of the player's own mouth will be non-independent. We need an article built on what people in the media are saying about her not what she says about herself.
The fact that your pings actually corresponded to some of the 30-40 people I already had in mind whose respected opinions helped shape my perception of consensus is frankly a great example of why we need the input of editors who are actually active in these areas at AfD. You can't just go cherry-picking single AfDs without understanding the context of the topic area and what sourcing is being disputed, and without having interacted with the participants enough times to recognize what they mean in the AfD-shorthand we all use. JoelleJay (talk) 22:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
And since you've gone ahead pinging specific editors, I'll provide my own handful of examples of editors whom I'm pretty sure would agree with interviews do not contribute to GNG except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer.:
@Vanamonde93:

The argument that interviews are admissible is an oversimplification; interviews may count toward GNG when they have intellectually independent content


@Extraordinary Writ:

which is entirely a non-independent interview (every sentence is either paraphrases Aninzo or quotes him directly)


@Wjemather:

The other (SME) is an interview transcript that contains no independent commentary, so also does not contribute towards GNG.


@Aoidh:

When the content of the source comes from the person's mouth, that makes it both a primary source, and a non-independent source as a person cannot be independent of himself. If Wikipedia policy isn't good enough, here's a UMASS Boston guide that very clearly spells it out, and here is another guide that points this out, and here's the American Library Association pointing it out. Both Wikipedia policy and scholarly consensus is in agreement with the fact that interviews of this type are a primary source. When the person being interviewed is also the subject of the article, it makes it a non-independent source, as the person the content is coming from is the subject.


@Ravenswing:

Source #8 interviews her, and almost entirely consists of quotes from the subject.

JoelleJay (talk) 22:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Wading in with my two cents. As a community we have a fuzzy standard of notability, as North8000 likes to say. We try to balance real world importance with real world coverage (that is people are notable if others want to write about them). In most cases, real world importance and substantial coverage overlaps, and there are no issues. Where we spend our time, and energy, is debating marginal cases, where our sense of being worthy to have a stand alone page and third party, independent coverage, do not align. On one hand, there are subjects that are covered in the media, but do not have any global impact (such as a winner of a county fair pie-eating contest), and conversely, there are some subjects that do have some real-world impact but not any third-party coverage. To me, these borderline cases cannot be solved through policy alone. As editors, we still will have our own ideas of which subjects should have a stand-alone page, and we are going to justify our beliefs by referring to the policies that support our views.
So, I do believe we need to evaluate a subject holistically, looking at the quality and quantity of coverage a subject receives balanced against the real-world impacts of a subject (a sportsperson playing in a top-tier league should be evaluated differently than an amateur athlete). This is not a simple check, whether or not there two GNG-sources, or whether an interview counts toward a GNG source (because the quality of an interview varies so, so much), but a real assessment of whether the subject should have a stand-alone page in a global encyclopedia and if there is enough verifiable information to create an informative article. -Enos733 (talk) 16:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I think you are right about us using a fuzzy standard. I suspect that some editors would prefer that we followed a strict, predictable algorithm instead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps a way forward is to add something to NBIO that says that an interview with a high quality source is not itself a source that can be used to consider notability, due to lack of independence, but is a good sign that other non interview sources exist about that person to better establish notability, due to the nature of the high quality source giving their time to conduct and publish the intervuew. Such language should also point to the caution of self promotional sources that NCORP gets into. Masem (t) 18:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't think that really aligns with some of the things we've discussed here. Consider:
  • You say "It's not itself a source that can be used to consider notability, due to lack of independence" – but see what JoelleJay has said repeatedly about the introductory material for the interview being independent secondary coverage, and what @Alanscottwalker has said about some interviews containing substantial independent information in the reporter's questions.
  • You say "a good sign that other non interview sources exist about that person" – but see the example I found of a businessman being interviewed with no reason to believe that GNG compliance could have been demonstrated before that interview.
Overall, I'm not feeling like we have established the utility of sweeping statements. It seems more likely that some interviews (of the article's subject) will, in part, contribute to notability, and some other interviews will not contribute at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
“direct statements by the subject (in interviews and wherever else) are not independent and do not count towards the depth of coverage of a source” still reads well. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I would say just "statements by the subject ...", considering the apparent distinction some editors make between things that are in literal quotation marks and things where someone is obviously quoting them but isn't putting it quote marks. JoelleJay (talk) 22:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
That is far too vague. You know this will lead to editors in AfDs tracing through all things the subject has ever said and matching them up against unattributed source material in an effort to disqualify those sources. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
You think that's more likely than editors interpreting "direct statements" to mean "only in quotation marks"? Certainly in my experience at sportsperson AfDs, where the majority of editors already understand how to dissect the secondary independent content out of an interview, this doesn't happen at all. What we do get is editors claiming statements -- even when in quotes! -- that are not in a Q&A interview format are "not interviews" and thus don't fail WP:PRIMARY. "Statements by the subject" is more than clear enough without implying that some type of statements by the subject are acceptable. JoelleJay (talk) 22:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I think David's right, unfortunately. We already have editors claiming that (e.g.,) the number of stores a business operates or the amount of sales last year came from the business, so the entire newspaper article is completely non-independent (if the editor thinks the subject is non-notable; if they hold the opposite view, then this is all absolutely independent SIGCOV in depth and detail).
We could probably get editors to more or less uniformly discount direct quotations, but even introducing the concept that it's possible for part of a source to 'count' even if part of it doesn't is going to take a year or two of steady, patient educational efforts.
I think it would help if we could introduce a definition of SIGCOV at the same time. To take the WP:100WORDS idea that @SmokeyJoe mentioned, if we could tell people that SIGCOV is measured by taking a source, excluding all the direct quotations from the subject/non-independent people ("I'm so proud of my kids") and excluding all the stuff that isn't even remotely useable in an encyclopedia article ("A funny think happened on the way to this press conference"), and then checking whether there were 100 words left, then we might have a better chance of getting this idea across without it devolving into "All the parts of the source I disagree with or am suspicious about are excluded". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
? You can't draw any sort of conclusion about what people might do with guidance that already follows directly from policy, that a large portion of people already intuitively grasp and practice, from how a vague cohort of NCORP editors apparently hyperbolize the much more complicated rules around source independence for businesses. Especially when, again, pretty much all of the source-scrutinizing editors actually at AfDs on biographies seem to have no trouble recognizing that independent commentary can be separated out of interviews -- the only issues we have in this area are with the editors who think the interviewee content, including paraphrased statements like "he thought the goal was beautiful", counts toward GNG "because the magazine itself is independent".
And no we are not going to muddy the discussion by introducing a definition of SIGCOV that no one will agree on. You know full well that would torpedo any hope of consensus. JoelleJay (talk) 02:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I hope that most editors don't feel like they can make reliable predictions about the effects of policy, since most of them have no experience in writing policies at all, but I've been editing Wikipedia's policies and guidelines since 2007. I've made more edits to policy and guideline pages (about 1,500?) than almost all editors make in total, ever. I have watched the process enough times to feel comfortable making some kinds of predictions.
I share your pessimism about being able to get a definition of SIGCOV adopted. I still think that if this nearly impossible task were accomplished, it would be easier for editors to understand and accept the idea of sources that only a part of a source could 'count'. We'd have a few conversations, and then probably a few rounds of people wondering whether 50% of three sources is 3 sources or 1.5 sources, but I think it would be easier for editors to understand a bigger 'package deal' than the one change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't think it's at all hard to understand that some parts of an interview are acceptable while other parts never are and to then apply one's assessment of SIGCOV to the parts that are acceptable. I have no idea what math you're referring to with those percentages, which have nothing to do with determining whether a source counts toward GNG. Either the IRS content is significant enough or it's not, that's all the evaluation the vast majority of editors already do at AfD.
Bundling disparate proposals, especially one with a major change like SIGCOV thresholds, would obviously fail immediately. JoelleJay (talk) 00:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
I know it's not difficult for you to understand the concept that we should count the acceptable/relevant parts of a source, but I have actually seen editors who take quite the opposite approach and say that any inclusion of non-independent content makes the entire source uncountable. It's best when our policies and guidelines are clear even to them, which sometimes requires defensive effort. It would be easy to write policies and guidelines if you were the only person reading them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Interviews with people representing businesses should always be looked at with a grain of salt at the source doing the interview, as NCORP has previously identified, there are trade magazines that take money to do such promotional interviews, which is what I get from the example you provide. It would be different if it were something likes Fortune or Forbes staff interviewing a CEO, which in those cases we don't have to worry about this pay-to-publish idea.
And I would say that we can write to the fact that the material in the interview portion of an interview article is the stuff that can't be used for notability, but any extra material, such as multiple background paragraphs that provide significant coverage of the individual, or as a broader example, a biography written with some interview inserts from the person being profiled. This is similar to the idea that a work can be primary and secondary at the same time.
I just don't think we can write, with absolutely objectivity, that an interview is never or always going to be allowed for notability demonstration. I think we want to edge on the caution that interview content is generally not going to contribute to notability but that an interview with a major publication is a good indicator that there should be GNG-appropriate sources to support notability of that person. Masem (t) 00:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
@Masem, the example I provided is a news piece in a large daily newspaper, published in a country where taking money for promotional content but then labeling it as a news story is actually illegal. Do you intend to accuse them of breaking US federal law? If so, do you have anything other than your own gut feeling to back it up? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Except, the company that runs Mercury News, the Bay Area News Group has a significant "digital marketing solutions" that would make me question all that. The last part of that, where it gives a short bio and 5 interesting facts, uses lower case lettering for the person's name, and that screams that someone entered values into a form field, rather than something written honestly by a reporter. For comparison, here's another such interview with a non-notable business leader that is CEO of a notable company [2], and here's another for Google's first employee who is barely notable given the BLP article we have [3], both illustrating the same form approach. I have several major questions that were I making such articles, would likely avoid using those interviews as sources unless I have many other reliable and secondary sources to establish notability first. — Masem (t) 01:57, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
The fact that a newspaper's corporate owner also sells marketing services is not actually evidence that a piece labeled "News" is secretly a paid advertisement.
Yes, it sounds like they have a standard format. That doesn't mean that it wasn't "written honestly by a reporter". WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I just don't think we can write, with absolutely objectivity, that an interview is never or always going to be allowed for notability demonstration.But...no one is advocating for that. We're asking that the existing, intuitive understanding that statements by someone being interviewed are not independent (and anyway should already be ignored as primary sources) but secondary independent analysis around those statements is. And I really don't think it's necessary to insert the suggestion that interviews can be an indication of notability, especially not into GNG, which is for assessing the sourcing that contributes to notability. Interviews are no more indicative of additional sourcing existing than any number of other predictors that we don't explicitly state in WP:N due to their not actually counting toward notability themselves. JoelleJay (talk) 02:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Masem was only clarifying the limits of his earlier remark, which actually did say that "an interview with a high quality source is not itself a source that can be used to consider notability". WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
How about this (change bolded):
If a topic does not meet these criteria but still has some verifiable facts, it might be useful to discuss it within another article. Some publications, such as interviews and primary research articles, may have a mixture of secondary and primary or independent and non-independent coverage of the subject. In these cases, only the content that is secondary and independent may be evaluated for GNG purposes. JoelleJay (talk) 15:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
No we do not need this. Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
I think it's accurate; perhaps it would be helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
If we're going to get anywhere on this topic, we need input from more editors. So here's a ping for everyone mentioning "interview" in the current businesspeople delsort (which I have never looked at before now), whether promoting or rejecting content-from-interviewee as sources. @Alpha3031 @CharlieMehta @CNMall41 @Dclemens1971 @Bearian @Julle @Robert McClenon @Scope creep @Lamona @Left guide @Esolo5002 @Mccapra @Crystalcoin @EmeraldRange JoelleJay (talk) 00:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Support, generally. It will make SIGCOV analysis more case by case by opening up the door slightly to interview content. However, many interviews, including Q&As, have some amount of editorial coverage that exists independent of the interviewee and it’s arguable this could constitute SIGCOV in particular circumstances. Perhaps we add some discussion somewhere or an anchor to PUREINT so we can easily point to sources that are purely interview content and thus not allowable for notability purposes. Dclemens1971 (talk) 02:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I think that in most cases, editors use good judgment around our guidance around notability. There are, and there always will be, edge cases that are tough to determine whether the subject deserves a stand-alone page. The challenge is that there are editors who prefer bright-line rules and the more we try to articulate a bright-line, the rule swallows the general purpose. With the case of interviews, I think there are many editors who do, or who have, recognized that most interviews contain a mixture of editorial content (from biographical information to the questions printed [or aired]). However, I do think we should be very wary of finding notability if an interview is only the first (or second) GNG source. (And as an aside, there is no standard developed for what constitutes an interview - and how that differs from someone being quoted, even about themself, in print, online, or on the air). - Enos733 (talk) 03:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
It will make SIGCOV analysis more case by case by opening up the door slightly to interview content. Maybe I should take part in businessperson AfDs more often, since the intent of this proposal was more to close the door on certain interview content that often gets passed off as IRS SIGCOV in other AfDs! JoelleJay (talk) 15:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
@JoelleJay:, without reading the thread in-depth (and forgive me it is way too long for me to focus on) I am unsure how I can assist. Can you let me know specifically where I mentioned it? Just a quick note that I have never seen an interview used to establish notability so I was likely arguing against it since they are not independent. --CNMall41 (talk) 04:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
@CNMall41, it looks like you mentioned interviews in this nom: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Frankel (financier). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. The particular reference is this from TechCrunch. It is regurgitating the person's words and not about them at all. It is him giving advice so I do not see how it could be used as a reference showing his notability. Hope that helps. --CNMall41 (talk) 05:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I’m of the opinion that interviews can stay as references, but they don’t necessarily contribute to notability. They are bonus, but not the minimum requirement for significant coverage. Bearian (talk) 05:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
@CNMall41 and @Bearian I also agree with both of you on how to use interviews in notability discussions. This was the main reason I nominated this article for deletion. Charlie (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
@CNMall41, that source doesn't look like it's in an Interview (journalism) format. It looks like an ordinary article, with paragraphs. An interview looks like this:

Jordan Crook: Mr. Frankel, how do you feel about computing headsets and wrist-watches?

John Frankel: Jordan, the thing that will make us comfortable with wearables will be the accuracy of the information they provide. Letting Siri be not completely accurate is annoying, but since wearables are ever-present, that information needs to be 100 percent correct.

An interview does not look like this:

"John Frankel, founder and partner at FF Ventures, has a steady hand on the pulse of innovation. He’s invested in companies like 500px, Appy Couple, and Moveline, to name a few, and while he doesn’t see a Series A crunch on the horizon, he does see the pace of innovation rapidly heating up.

"After all, his firm as led seven investments in new companies since December 1, most notably in companies who are taking the smartphone and turning it into something truly functional and useful for people.

"As our focus begins to shift from pocketable computers to wearable ones, we found it only fitting to see how Mr. Frankel feels about computing headsets and wrist-watches.

"“The thing that will make us comfortable with wearables will be the accuracy of the information they provide,” said Frankel. “Letting Siri be not completely accurate is annoying, but since wearables are ever-present, that information needs to be 100 percent correct.”"

(and it goes on from there, for more than 400 words, about a quarter of which are direct quotations). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I respect your point. Here is what I see in the article. - “See how he feels about,” “said Frankel,” “Frankel sees” (followed by quote), “He brought up…,” another “Frankel sees…,” “said Frankel” (preceded and followed by another quote), “we took the opportunity to ask Frankel his opinion..,” “said Frankel” (again preceded and followed by quote). - No independent journalism. Just because a journalist puts it in prose as opposed to a Q&A does not mean it isn’t an interview. Even if we parse the meaning of the word, it is still not independent coverage. --CNMall41 (talk) 05:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I certainly agree with this position, though it's often much harder to argue at AfD. In those cases I generally just highlight the fact that it's not secondary analysis of the subject. JoelleJay (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Something doesn't need to be a Q&A interview for it to contain primary interview content. JoelleJay (talk) 15:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
True, but there's a gap between "contain primary interview content" and "be entirely an interview". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I have concerns like many other have raised about what counts a secondary within an interview piece. I think drawing a bright line behind "secondary independent commentary by the interviewer" is not a good line to draw. If the source is primarily an interview and has a bit of prose to provide context, it should not count for SIGCOV. A good journalist would likely add some independent context where relevant, but some might rephrase/summarise information generally sourced from the interviewee. I do trust editors to use good judgement and support the general idea behind the guideline. On WP:INTERVIEWS, we have

The general rule is that any statements made by interviewees about themselves, their activities, or anything they are connected to is considered to have come from a primary source. Statements made by interviewees about subjects they have not personally experienced (e.g., the historian interviewed on the radio about a historical event) could be either primary or secondary, depending on whether it merely repeats what other sources say or whether it adds analysis, context, comparison, or other transformative thought to the original sources.

If we want to make this into a guideline, I would support this. For clarity, maybe we could add something about how SIGCOV can still come from a source containing an interview but not from the interview itself. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 14:39, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
@EmeraldRange, I have similar concerns, but I'm hoping that these situations will be preempted by not stating that such content counts toward GNG, but rather that it may be evaluated for GNG purposes: Some publications, such as interviews and primary research articles, may have a mixture of secondary and primary or independent and non-independent coverage of the subject. In these cases, only the content that is secondary and independent may be evaluated for GNG purposes. This still leaves open the ability to argue that particular content in an interview is not secondary (even if it doesn't come straight from the interviewee). It also doesn't imply that secondary independent content is inherently SIGCOV, only that it may be evaluated for that property.
Perhaps it would also help to clarify that this carve-out is only for some interviews and not interviews in general? My intention with introducing this language is to have guidance somewhere that explicitly states interviews are not automatically secondary and independent simply by being published in a third-party source. Maybe this isn't a problem in businessperson AfDs as much, but it certainly comes up a lot elsewhere, e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Esraa Owis where video interviews (not to mention routine churnalized event results and uncaptioned photo spreads!) were claimed to be independent secondary SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, you put it better than I did. I support having a guideline that says interviews are not generally independent and therefore don't count towards SIGCOV just because someone decided to interview them. The caveat is just that some GNG-worthy sources can have an interview as part of secondary independent SIGCOV in the same web page/article/book. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't know if we really should or even could boil our guidance on interviews down to one or two sentences. In addition to the paragraph quoted above by EmeraldRange starting with the general rule, I would also include a summary of the paragraph at the end of the two sections, which start with how interviews often have a short bio from the subject and detail how to examine them, namely To be secondary, the source has to contain transformative thoughts, which an uncritical parroting of what someone else said lacks. and Material originally written by the subject of a Wikipedia article is not independent of that article's subject. So, basically, I think we should cover it with the following points:
  • Introductory sentence with the some publications such as interviews as written here
  • The paragraph about the general rule
  • Any additional common caveats like the short bio paragraphs
  • A bit about how a unusually high volume of interviews that don't look like the usual SPIP or routine coverage might be indirect evidence of eligible sources existing, even if they're not themselves eligible sources, similar to how the additional criteria like ANYBIO work. (though if using it that way one had better make an actual argument instead of dropping a list of links and leaving)
This would make it a bit too long to tack onto the end of GNG, so instead I would suggest a new subsection under § Common circumstances instead, especially since the context from the other subsections could be helpful. I would also not be opposed to actually adding the last part also to NBIO, perhaps as an additional clause in ANYBIO, but I don't have strong opinions on how to write the rule. Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree with this, but I think it would be harder to get such a large chunk of detailed guidance through right now (see the discussion above for how much knee-jerk resistance there is to limiting interviews in any way). My hope is that we can get consensus for a small change that simply reiterates PST/independence in the context of interviews so that we have something in our PAGs to point to when editors insist material from an interviewee is somehow independent/secondary enough for GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 23:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
If Wikipedia:No original research#cite note-8, which already gives interviews as an example of primary sources three times, isn't already "something [effective] to point to", then I'm not convinced that adding another line here would make any difference. Wikipedia:Independent sources ("just" an essay, of course) also uses an interview as an example of a non-independent source.
I think detailed guidance would be more accurate, and I think that having our advice pages be accurate is important. In terms of practical outcomes (Note: I have a personal bias against articles for BLPs of borderline or doubtful notability, which means that I'm defaultly opposed to most of the articles for which an interview could be the deciding factor), if we say that it's primary and it's non-independent, and editors are still saying "Count this anyway!", maybe the problem has more to do with our WP:UPPERCASE culture, and these pro-interview claims are closer to WP:ILIKEIT votes, or (less bluntly) a case of editors using their best judgement to decide what ought to be an acceptable subject. If so, the there's nothing we can change in any guideline that will change the substance of their comments. The most we could hope for is a change to the appearance of the 'keep' votes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Maybe if you'd had to explain how interviews work re:notability in literally hundreds of AfDs, you'd understand why this is needed. Editors claim that WP:OR passage is "just a footnote, not part of the policy", note that it says "depending on context" and therefore whatever they're promoting is exempt, and/or bring up the fact that interviews are "not mentioned at WP:N" so there are no limitations, and this happens constantly. Having something in the guideline would've saved the time of 15+ editors and prevented 2500+ words of useless arguing in just these seven AfDs alone: [4][5][6][7][8][9][10] And those are just some of the recent athlete AfDs I've bookmarked where interviews re:PAGs is actually discussed; hundreds more feature editors having to explain why the interviews someone puts forth as GNG sources don't count without further discussion. JoelleJay (talk) 03:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
I've written a lot of WP:Interviews, which is generally a sign that I've spent more time explaining it than I'd like to, though you're correct that I haven't done so "in literally hundreds of AfDs".
OTOH, those editors are correct that whether an interview is independent or primary depends on the context. In the context of dear old Prof Portant talking about a historical event, his statements are (probably) independent of the subject and secondary for the subject. In the context of Joe Film talking about himself and.or his latest film, his statements are (usually) non-independent of the subject and primary for the subject. In both cases, the media outlet's decision to publish something about the subject, and their decision to interview this person, is independent.
My thought above, though, is a bit different than whether a given source is realio-trulio independent, as that word is defined in the GNG. What I'm wondering is: if someone's willing to argue that vehemently that the subject is notable, do you actually think that plopping the word interviews into this guideline will actually make any difference? If you thought that editors voting keep keep desperately keep would do an about-face if we could say "Chapter 2 verse 9 of the Book of Notability says 'Independent sources shalt be counted, and the sources of independence shalt be counted. Interviews shalt thou not count, excepting as they are interviews about the subject by someone who is not the subject. Interviews with musicians, actors, athletes, and politicians are right out'", then it might be worth it, but looking at the comments in the AFDs you've linked, I suspect that the response would be "I think the other sources prove notability anyway, so doubleplus keep and a pox on your guideline about interviews." WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Obviously that context was irrelevant in these AfDs on sportspeople. The choice of a publisher to interview someone is not coverage of that person, so their independence in that aspect is also irrelevant to GNG.
I don't care about convincing those keep editors to change their !vote. The point is to convince the closer that their arguments are not P&G-based, which is easier to do when we have a straightforward guideline to point to. Merely reminding editors that interviews contain primary non-independent content is far from the best way to prevent such content from being presented as IRS SIGCOV -- precise instructions on how to evaluate media relying on quotes/comments from the subject, à la NCORP, would be preferable -- but it is still a step forward and is much more likely to gain consensus. JoelleJay (talk) 19:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
In your experience, is this an issue mostly with sportsbio AfDs? Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @JoelleJay, I looked at the first two AfDs you link to and see that there are some confusion between how we define an interview. In the Çelik AfD, what an editor considered a GNG-interview was a one sentence quote. I don't think this would constitute significant coverage of the subject, whether it was a quote or prose (but at least one editor disagreed). However, while the subject was "interviewed" (or quoted by a reporter), this differs from a full length interview with a subject - such as this interview with Max Bacon or this interview with Toms River Mayor Dan Rodrick. Now I won't suggest that either mayor should have a stand-alone page based on this interview, but there is a qualitative difference between a one or two sentence quote in an article about something else and publications devoting time to talk to a subject about themselves. Any guidance we may want to provide editors should take these differences into account -
Enos733 (talk) 16:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
But it doesn't matter which format an interview comes in -- press conference quotes, sit-down long-form, Q&A -- primary or non-independent content does not contribute to GNG and does not help establish notability. JoelleJay (talk) 18:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Which takes us back to the thread with @David Eppstein, @SmokeyJoe, and @Alanscottwalker that it's not "interviews" per se, but direct statements by the subject (in interviews and wherever else) are not independent.
I think it would be possible to take this too far, but I think that a moderate interpretation of it would be feasible. The GNG already gives examples of non-independent sources, and "direct statements" or, if you'd like to start more conservatively, "direct quotations from the subjects, when speaking about themselves" could be added to the middle of that list.
I think the wikilawyer potential here largely lies in these two areas, and both will come from people who believe the subject is non-notable:
  • "There is one direct quotation from the subject in this lengthy source, so the entire source is tainted with non-independence and doesn't count at all."
  • "I personally believe that the source got this (non-quotation) information from a source that got it from the subject, so this independent-seeming source is really not independent." For example, a source might write about which publicly traded companies in a given sector had the best profits last year, and the editor might claim that since the earnings were reported by the companies, then any analysis of those earnings is tainted by non-independence. (Or, you know, pretty much every criminal accusation over private conduct ever.)
I don't know how other editors feel about the extent to which these might be manageable risks, but I think it's not impossible.
More generally, do we think this would take us in the direction of Notability's guiding light, which is enough attention from the world at large that it's possible to write a decent encyclopedia article? If this were strictly applied, would we be able to accept an article of the he said/she said sort? What kind of independent sources could you find for events in a warzone, if you declare all information from all of the belligerents to be non-independent, and nobody unconnected with them can do more than speculate? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
The general principle surrounding interviews ought to come from WP:N: "Article and list topics must be notable, or "worthy of notice"", and WP:WHYN: "to ensure that editors create articles that comply with major content policies." To me, if we look at these guiding principles, we should be careful with explicit instructions and instead encourage editors to judge a reliable source holistically, both in what is published and the context of the publication. Most publishers, unlike this project, are limited in resources and use editorial judgement in what is published. So, we must be willing to recognize and accept differences in the quality of source, that a one-off quote in a game recap is much different than a long-form interview with an industry leader (even if we start the evaluation with a healthy degree of skepticism of anything that hints at self-promotion) . - Enos733 (talk) 00:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
I like this as a vision, but in addition to be willing to recognize and accept differences in the quality of source, we will need editors (each of whom will use their best editorial judgement and arrive at the opposite conclusion) to be willing to accept differences in each others' views about the quality of sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't understand -- are you disputing that material with zero independent secondary coverage cannot count towards GNG under any circumstances? JoelleJay (talk) 01:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Your first example would be completely obviated by my proposed guidance, your second example does not seem to happen anywhere outside of maybe business topics that are already under NCORP and so are irrelevant here. The wikilawyering would and does come, at much higher frequency, from people insisting that an interview statement like "he expressed that he wanted to congratulate his teammates" is not a "direct quote" and therefore is secondary independent coverage. See the testimony by @EmeraldRange and @CNMall41 who have separately brought up the problem of journalists merely restating/summarizing a subject's words without providing secondary analysis.
Notability's "guiding light" is that notability can only be presumed via meeting GNG or an SNG. In this discussion we are only concerned with GNG, which very clearly insists on specific criteria and which offers exactly zero support for non-coverage-based metrics of notability. I would be opposed to adding any suggestion that "being interviewed" is even an indication of GNG sourcing existing when WP:N does not offer any other "indications": literally everything in it is about coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 01:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
My first would not be obviated by the suggestion (not yours) that we merely cram "interviews" or "direct quotations from the subject" into existing list of examples in the GNG.
I agree that notability is concerned with coverage, as in wikt:coverage, n. "(journalism) The amount and type of attention given to an event or topic in news media or other media." But an interview of Joe Film, to talk about Joe and his films, is coverage, so it's a little more complicated than just "everything is about coverage". WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:44, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Part of my concern is that, especially for topics with less coverage, it's not difficult to get yourself interviewed or covered by media, especially local news outlets. The journalists still have the independent decision to conduct the interview and publish as they see fit but the mere act of coverage shouldn't be enough. This consideration is not limited to interviews only, but I think the key assumption me and other editors are making is that interviews are necessarily not independent due to the subject's direct involvement.
Two aspects of GNG here. For significant coverage, sure the interview itself existing is an example of coverage. But it's not independent. What I suggested is that "interviews" can count to GNG if and only if there's significant independent coverage within the work (book, article, etc.) that goes beyond what the interviewee might have directly provided for the work (the interview itself, quotes, etc.) I think your second example of hearsay can be argued still within the suggested guideline, but that example is, in my view, the literal definition of a secondary source.
Essentially, the line between primary and secondary souricng is never clear but I think the mere existence of an interview is not independent enough for GNG. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 03:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree with you. The GNG focuses on independence in terms of the source/subject relationship: Richard Nixon saying "I am not a crook" in a press conference (in response to a reporter's question about his income taxes), is never going to be independent of the subject of Richard Nixon. However, the decision to give Nixon an hour-long live platform on television was made independently – thus independent in the attention-from-the-world-at-large idea.
The problem I've seen with the "hearsay" example is that "Company A is more profitable than Company B" is, as you say, characteristic of a secondary source. But we have editors who will say, "Wait a minute: How did Frank Financial get the numbers to do that analysis? They must have come from Company A. Therefore, that source isn't realio-trulio independent of Company A, so the source doesn't count for GNG (or NCORP) purposes."
This is IMO wrong for that example but also IMO not entirely unreasonable for others. I'm satisfied that Frank Financial, who has gone through Form 10-K filings for an analysis, should be considered independent, but one has to be a little cautious in certain other areas (e.g., "independent" studies funded by cigarette manufacturers), which is why your concept of a holistic review seems more appropriate to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
WAID, I am now familiar with you points, but am unconvinced that they are compelling enough to do anything about.
  • Dot point 1. Tainting. Something in the source is non-independent and so the source as a whole may be non-independent. This can be true. For example, on digging, I discover the journalist was last year an intern in the company that is the subject of the article. I would call this tainted for the purposes of being one of the two best GNG sources. Assuming the journalist is not connected, but they have a direct quote from the CEO, this does not taint the rest of the source. If the journalist’s story is sprinkled throughout with adjectives from the company’s last year of press releases, I think the call would be subjective. Maybe the adjectives are measured and appropriate. Maybe they are puffery (ascribing unverifiable positive attributes). Maybe it is just poor journalism.
  • Dot point 2, I maintain, against your criticism, that this is a line of think that may be wisely considered. However, it is very subjective, and I have *NEVER* seen anyone wikilawyer that sort of argument in support of deletion of an article that should be kept. I personally have failed to win a deletion with such an argument, to later see the old article draftified as COI and then deleted per G13. I don’t think anything we are talking about here is going to see these arguments swing from being difficult to winning too easily.
On direct statements by the subject (in interviews and wherever else) are not independent, I like the backing away from focus on “interview” as some people seem to have an expansive definition of “interview”, albeit illogically in my opinion. I like the avoiding of “primary” and “secondary” sources, because any interview can be both, and many people have written very confused things about source typing of an interview. I like the idea of declaring such statements as not contribution to SIGCOV because (1) SIGCOV needs more attention and this point is good, and (2) limited SIGCOV feeds directly into the GNG from that angle, and only one angle is needed, even if three angles are available.
- SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't spend much time in biography delsorts other than sportspeople and academics, so I don't know how big an issue it is elsewhere. JoelleJay (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment I read through this and I agree with the very first sentence, they are WP:PRIMARY and can't be used to establish notability but that is not the whole story. There is not doubt that attitudes have hardened in the last decade to folk pushing interviews as a mechanism to prove notability. I was always told you couldn't use it in that way and its more or less set in stone unfortunately, whose practice I include myself in. I've tended to ignore folk who use it in that way and it always seems to be those celebrities, band members, artists, ceo's and industry professionals, those who are doing the PR rounds in particular. When you look at blps sourced with interviews, for example taken in multiple countries, or multiple interviews done across months or years as two example, they are significant and they must be taken into account. They can't just be written off. But it needs clarified but how to get the guideline correctly written to ensure its not abused. There is so many folk trying to build their own wee personal brand and interviews are very big part of tha mix, doing the PR round, that is very common for a certain segment of society. So if there is updates, the language needs to be correct. scope_creepTalk 12:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
    When you look [some cases] … interviews … are significant and they must be taken into account. They can't just be written off.
    For what purpose? The purpose is limited for the testing against the GNG concept. It is suggested that there are zero cases where there are significant interviews and the GNG is not already easily met by other sources. That there is no need to ever have to rely on an interview to justify inclusion of a topic that ought to be included. For GNG purposes, there is never a need to take an interview into account. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
    You might as well say that all articles on Nobel prizewinners should be unsourced because we know they are notable. If a source can contribute to notability it can contribute to notability. We should not say to not count some sources merely because other sources exist. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
    A good point to remember is that the GNG and SNGs are a presumption of a topic being notable, not an absolute. Thus, if we have a bio article with its only source as an interview, that will not meet notability, but because of the presumption, there is a strong likelihood addition, non interview sources exist, and the article should be kept otherwise until someone does a thorough BEFORE to demonstrate no further sourcing is available. I do not want us to say an interview is an indicator towards notability, automatically. Masem (t) 18:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
    User:David Eppstein, where do I imply that some articles should be unsourced?
    Highly notable people get interviewed. This does not mean that being interviewed means the interviewee is notable.
    Borderline GNG questions do not involve Nobel Prize winners. They do involve ambitious new graduates and nascent commercialism and are part of typical native advertising campaigns, which involve gaining a Wikipedia article.
    The GNG requires sources to be independent. An interviewee is not independent in their interview. The introduction to an interview is not an interview. The analysis of an interview is not an interview. It’s weird that this is so hard. In practice, it looks well enough understood, except by proponents of non-notable articles, the intended audience of this proposal.
    However, given that this is proven difficult, we can avoid any mention of interviews, with: Statements by a subject are not independent of the subject, and do not contribute to significant coverage of the subject.
    — SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:12, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Notability feels weird

I recently got a "this article may not meet notability guidelines" on my article for The New Order: Last Days of Europe (mod), which confuses me. The mod has tons of downloads and is the 8th most subscribed mod for HOI4. That somehow isn't notable. Yet there are articles on random villages in the middle east with less than 10 people in them? They also are barely two or three sentences long, and have some random census document as their source. How is that more notable than a major video game mod?

I just don't quite understand. Help would be appriciated. -Emily (PhoenixCaelestis) (talk) 13:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Notability is based on what significant coverage that reliable secondary sources say about a topic. It is not about popularity or fame or recognizition, though those are elements that may lead to secondary sourcing. — Masem (t) 14:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Additionally, populated settlements with legal recognition are presumed to be notable per WP:GEOLAND, as it is virtually inevitable that such places will generate coverage in secondary sources. signed, Rosguill talk 14:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
also notability has to be independent of a game, unless it gets (in its own right) significant third-party coverage. Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
User:Slatersteven, your “unless” part is confusing. Are you implying a difference between “independent” and “third-party”? Can you explain? SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Independent of the game means that the coverage must be of the mod in its own right (excluding just brief mentions of the game it is a mod for). Third-party means the sources can't be from anyone connected to the mod or the game. Slatersteven (talk) 10:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
To me it feels weird that an encyclopedia should not cover real-life villages but cover a video game mod (something concerning a fucking game, not even the game itself). It is because of such differences of opinion that guidelines are used. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Have others written about this mod? SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
In terms of media outlets, not that I am aware of. However, the mod has a very dedicated fanbase (I should state that I am not part of it), and has been quite popular since its release. There are also hundreds of YouTube videos on it. I doubt the average media outlet has staff that just sit down and download random mods for strategy games from 2016, but I think there's a couple of gaming-specific outlets that have reported on it. I'll see what more I can find. -Emily (PhoenixCaelestis) (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
@PhoenixCaelestis, check out Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library for access to some sources. It leans scholarly, but you might find something. Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources is specific to video games. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Have others written about this mod? “not that I am aware of”. That’s the crux. Wikipedia must not be the first other to write about it. Wikipedia covers what others have already covered. It’s not weird, unless you mean Wikipedia’s choice of the word “notability”, in which case I think everyone agrees with you. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
See also WP:POPULARITY. "The mod has a very dedicated fanbase ... and has been quite popular since its release" are things one could say about it based on reliable published sources that say the same thing. They are not a basis for notability themselves. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
I would guess you received that notification because the article you created does not cite many independent secondary sources that come across as probably being rigorous and reliable. You cite Wargamer, which is a publication that covers wargames, but all the other sources will raise the eyebrow of many a Wikipedian concerned about notability. The Vandegrift Voice is a student newspaper (this is not automatically disqualifying for a source, but can you understand how it doesn't lend us much sense of prominence as coverage in, say, a regional newspaper like the Chicago Tribune?), IGDB is a database that provides limited information that some editors won't consider significant coverage establishing notability, and the other sources are primary sources, like citing the mod's steam page or a forum post.
Notability on Wikipedia as currently outlined in our guidelines isn't synonymous with 'how popular a thing is'. Rather, the guidelines consider a topic notable if it has been significantly covered by multiple secondary sources that are independent and reliable. What coverage counts as 'significant' and how many 'multiple' has to be are matters that editors sometimes disagree about, but that's the gist. In some sense, when we say 'notability' we kind of mean 'coveredness'—has this topic been covered (written about) by enough sources that we could write an article about it citing those sources? (There are some exceptions, such as WP:NPROF, but for the general notability guideline, this is somewhat the idea.) So although Martha Ballard was very obscure during her lifetime, historians' interest in her diary and life means she has been covered by independent, reliable secondary sources, making her notable. And although The New Order: Last Days of Europe gets a lot of downloads, it doesn't seem to have gotten a lot of attention from scholars or journalists—which is, on Wikipedia, not notable. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
And, perhaps the most important point: Just because (if) it doesn't qualify for a Wikipedia:Separate, stand-alone article ("Notability"), it can still be in Wikipedia. 'Non-notable' subjects can be a paragraph or even a whole ==Section== inside a larger topic. If a thorough search convinces you that it doesn't qualify for a separate article, then see Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of using "notability" as a term because it's confusing outside of Wikipedia. This guideline is really about "significant coverage" (WP:SIGCOV) from WP:RELIABLESOURCES. Wikipedia is supposed to summarize what other reliable sources have said about a topic. Without a significant amount of verified facts from reliable sources, we can't write a reliable, neutral article. In fact, creating an article based on blog posts, store pages, and unverified wikis can be biased, misleading, or even harmful. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
It is weird because, we have used a word "notability" that is not fit for purpose and used weirdly. It is not your fault, it is Wikipedia's fault. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
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