Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Novels

Character lists and the use of bold

See discussion Talk Great Expectations and Project Novels. I suggest modifying the guideline for characters to read as follows:

3.3 Characters

If appropriate, a character section would consist of brief character outlines, as opposed to a simple list. Characters' names should only be indented (though subsections may be used for lengthy descriptions); bold should not be used. Most articles do not need this section. Instead, a finely crafted plot summary is used to introduce the characters to the reader.

Plot summary length

These featured articles on novels currently have a plot summary well over 700 words:

• The Bread-Winners: 851
• Brother Jonathan (novel): 872
• Candide: 2,000
• The Diary of a Nobody: 1,000
• El Señor Presidente: 1,027
• The Fountainhead: 809
• The Fox and the Hound (novel): 820
• The General in His Labyrinth: 811
• The Green Child: 907
• The Historian: 1,111
• The Hunger Games (novel): 853
• Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell: 1,551
• The Left Hand of Darkness: 881
• The Man in the Moone: 809
• Maus: 936
• The Phantom Tollbooth: 905
• Uncle Tom's Cabin: 946

I see this was discussed long ago. I realize that in some cases the plot summary may have been expanded after the article was promoted to FA, but it appears that there have always been a significant number of Featured Articles with plot summaries decidedly longer than 700 words. This was the Plot section prior to the recent round of revisions. It said 400 to 700 words are usually sufficient for a full-length work, although very complex and lengthy novels may need a bit more. That is probably better than saying A plot summary over 700 words may be challenged for length. I never liked that wording, but I understood that we might want to deter very long plot summaries. However, I think the other wording now does the job well enough, between noting that a plot summary should not follow every twist and turn of the story, and suggesting that you look for things that can be shortened. If editors remain at an impasse regarding a plot summary, they can seek more opinions. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I find the current wording "may be challenged for length" to be a bit ambiguous, personally...though I feel the same way about "a bit more", which is highly subjective. I also feel that it puts the onus on the person 'challenging' the length, when the onus should be on the editors who want a summary in violation of the guideline to gain consensus for keeping the longer summary if and when other editors try to shorten it. WP:FILMPLOT says, "Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words. The summary should not exceed this range unless the film's structure is unconventional, such as with non-linear storylines, or unless the plot is too complicated to summarize in this range. Discuss with other editors to determine if a summary cannot be contained within the recommended range." I like this phrasing, as it makes it more clear, in my opinion, that the 700-word maximum should be respected until there's a consensus that it's insufficient. DonIago (talk) 03:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with subjectivity here, because each situation is different. So "a bit more" seems reasonable to me. Also, I'm not sure the onus should be on anyone. Someone who thinks a plot summary has gotten too long is free to try to shorten it, or suggest ways it can be shortened. The 700-word cutoff is a rule of thumb, but a substantial percentage of the Featured Articles on novels exceed that by at least 100 words. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 15:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I wonder whether they exceeded 700 words at the time they became FAs, or how the guideline read at the time. At the risk of repeating myself, I feel if there is a guideline then the goal should be to adhere to it; the people who wish to disregard it are the ones who should need to make a case for doing so, not the ones who wish to bring the summary within compliance. Is "a bit more" 20 words or 200 words? I don't see a reason to create a situation where editors can quibble over something like that. DonIago (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The existence of longer plots in some featured articles is neither here nor there. Many were written under previous versions of the guidelines (often with exceptionally long paragraphs), and of course there's a natural reluctance for editors to fiddle around with featured articles without compelling reason. In any event, WP:OTHERCONTENT.

Prior to Special:Diff/949746733 by Scribolt in 2020, the guideline was hopelessly vague, and said "Three or four paragraphs are usually sufficient". That caused lots of disagreements and wasted time. Things are better now, due to the fairly definite wording. I do a lot of plot summaries, and it would really harm my and other editors' ability to work effectively if the guideline were to be softened, normalising an expectation that editors working to keep the plot within the agreed range should have to prove their case.

Being able to point to some fairly definite figure is tremendously helpful to an editor who is actively trying to trim the plot to below 700 words against resistance from another editor who has really, really strong views about their deathless prose being trimmed. Where there is a real need to go beyond 700 words, the guideline should allow for that, but it should be for the editor who is arguing for an exception to make the case for doing so.

If that general approach can be agreed, I'm more than happy to discuss detailed drafting. Based on what's been suggested above, perhaps this would work:

An article about a novel should include a concise plot summary which highlights the most important events and developments without attempting to follow every twist and turn of the story. A summary for a full-length novel should be between 400 words (for a simple plot) and 700 words (for a more complex plot). If you find yourself writing or making edits to a summary that will take it over that length, look for things that can be trimmed without losing anything important. If you feel there are exceptional reasons for the summary to exceed 700 words, open a discussion on the talk page and seek the opinion of other editors, explaining why you consider the novel to be a special case.

MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm generally happy with this wording, but I'd suggest either losing the parenthetical remarks entirely or at least losing the parentheses themselves; they're not needed. In the later section of the text you might link to CONSENSUS to establish that involving other editors is the norm and that we're not making some sort of special allowance here. Lastly, where you say 'novel' at the end, I'd probably say 'plot summary' or such, since it's the summary of the novel that's in question, not the novel itself. All in all though, I think this is a good attempt at better wording, and if other editors agree, I'm happy to take a more micro pass at it. DonIago (talk) 19:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's even a need to specify a minimum length. There are featured articles with plot summaries shorter than 400 words, although maybe the books were novellas. If you can summarize the important points in less than 400 words, there's no need to add more. I would thus change the second sentence to Even for a full-length novel with a complex plot, a plot summary normally should not exceed 700 words. I think we do need "normally", since it clearly isn't always. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 19:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks both. I wonder if Scribolt might care to comment, too? I do think it's worth keeping in the lower figure, not because people will argue about it but because it encourages editors to have a go at fleshing out articles where the summary is just a sentence or two. Amended proposal:

An article about a novel should include a concise plot summary which highlights the most important events and developments without attempting to follow every twist and turn of the story. A summary for a full-length novel should normally be between 400 and 700 words. If you find yourself writing or making edits to a summary that will take it over that length, look for things that can be trimmed without losing anything important. If you feel there are exceptional reasons for the summary to be longer or shorter than that, open a discussion on the talk page and seek the opinion of other editors, explaining why you consider this summary to be a special case.

MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if we do mention a minimum, that would not need to be discussed right away, as a plot summary might be expanded later. So I would remove "or shorter" from the last sentence. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 12:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe the point of that clause is that there might be an editor who feels strongly that a summary should be under 400 words. That seems like an edge case to me, but I suppose it's not impossible. DonIago (talk) 13:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, happy to do that. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

This changes When editing a plot summary that is approaching that length or has already exceeded it to If you find yourself writing or making edits to a summary that will take it over that length. That narrows things a bit. I feel like we should have some guidance directed at those who might be trimming a plot summary that they hadn't previously edited. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 13:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, taking those suggestions on board, here's a further draft. I've removed the sentence about edits that take the summary from below 700 to over 700, as that's already covered by "should normally be between 400 and 700 words". Instead, some guidance encouraging (but not requiring) trimming if already over 700. Some cosmetic tightening up, too.

An article about a novel should include a concise plot summary which highlights the most important events and developments without attempting to follow every twist and turn of the story. A summary for a full-length novel should normally be between 400 and 700 words. If you feel there are exceptional reasons warranting a longer summary, seek the opinion of other editors on the talk page, explaining why you consider this summary to be a special case. If the summary is already too long, avoid adding more information; instead, try to reduce the word count by trimming unnecessary details without losing important content.

MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I'm okay with this wording; thank you for your efforts here! DonIago (talk) 02:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

We shouldn't definitively say not to add to a plot summary that is already too long. There could still be something important missing, and adding it might help to sort out what should stay and what should go. The advice to trim unnecessary details applies whether you wrote the long plot summary or someone else wrote it. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 05:32, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I feel that your first point is already covered by the guidance to initiate a discussion, the point being it's better to ask first in such occasions. As for trimming unnecessary details, that's a suggestion to the editor who wants to add content. Maybe I'm missing something though; is there specific wording that you feel would be an improvement? DonIago (talk) 06:01, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with DonIago. On your first point, there's no prohibition ('must not'), simply an encouragement to 'avoid'. The final sentence is drafted to achieve a specific aim, namely to discourage making existing over-long summaries even longer. If you're writing the summary yourself, the second sentence has already said what you need to know. MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I would still remove avoid adding more information. On that point, I prefer the current wording: When editing a plot summary that is approaching that length or has already exceeded it, look for things that can be shortened without losing anything important. You might also be adding to the plot summary; perhaps that will even help you to sort out what should stay and what should go. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 13:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I'm generally fine with the new wording, although I do have some reservations about the utility of the "open a discussion on the talk page first" approach. As I see it, the 700 word limit isn't the goal in itself, it's a simple way of identifying that wheb a plot summary has become non-encyclopedic (which the text also nicely describes). If something is over 700 words it almost certainly contains something that isnt needed in a Wikipedia plot section. The vast majority of the times I've referred to this has been well meaning new editors add extraneous language or details, and this is a convenient way of reverting the bloat without having to get into discussions of what is encyclopedic each time. These editors are not likely to have read this page in advance, and probably not likely to open a discussion each time they see their favourite sub plot or character description missing from an article. What's more likely to happen is that they add bloat, they get reverted and are asked to justify it, which was more or less described in the older version. I'm also not aware of many other areas where people are recommended in guidelines to discuss prior to editing, putside of contentious topics. I'd prefer that we keep to that here, but won't stand in the way of a change . Scribolt (talk) 16:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Instead of telling someone to start a discussion or stating that it may be challenged for length, we could say A plot summary over 700 words has probably gone beyond what a plot summary is supposed to be. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 20:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

We could, but why sugar-coat it? A plot summary over 700 words does merit discussion before expanding it further, and it very well may be challenged for length. I certainly challenge plot additions that take the summary over 700 words. The best thing editors who wish to expand summaries beyond 700 words can do is get a consensus to waive the guideline first and then expand the summary. DonIago (talk) 01:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

In general I'm happy with the revisions proposed here, but I do want to pipe up in support of mentioning a minimum. I often see plot "summaries" like this one, which is really just a one- or two-sentence blurb/hook and needs expansion. I think it's nice to have a benchmark on-record that 60 words is typically much too short. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 03:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I've edited the section. I think it's an improvement, but of course it can be further tweaked. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 04:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I've had to revert that: it is not good practice to make contentious edits in the middle of an active talk page discussion. The change adds new undiscussed wording, goes back to text we already have consensus to amend ("are usually sufficient"), and includes wording that only you have sought. Let's continue the discussion here please MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

[reset tab] As Scribolt indicates, a major practical purpose of the guideline is to help guard against the addition of excessive bloat by well-meaning but inexperienced new editors. The wording should encourage the following process after the addition of bloat: (1) revert with reference to the guideline, (2) editor quickly understands the reason for the revert and either leaves it at that (most common) or understands that discussion is needed. What we are trying to avoid at step (2) is: editor reads guidelines, concludes that 700 words is a matter of opinion, and – not knowing any better – starts an edit war.

It may help to compare with WP:FILMPLOT, which has: "Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words. The summary should not exceed this range unless the film's structure is unconventional, such as with non-linear storylines, or unless the plot is too complicated to summarize in this range. Discuss with other editors to determine if a summary cannot be contained within the recommended range."

I hope that this will cover most of the contributions made above:

An article about a novel should include a concise plot summary which highlights the most important events and developments without attempting to follow every twist and turn of the story. A summary for a full-length novel should be between 400 and 700 words. When a plot summary exceeds that, look for things that can be trimmed without losing anything important. Very occasionally, there may be exceptional reasons that warrant a longer summary. If you believe you are working on such a case you should be prepared to explain why on the talk page.

MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This looks good to me. Scribolt (talk) 11:49, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

That looks good. My main reservation is that cases where a plot summary should be more than 700 words may not be as rare as the wording suggests, given the number of Featured Articles that have plot summaries longer than that. But I understand why you want to discourage it. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 12:28, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I still think it's very possible that those articles achieved FA status when the word-count guieline wasn't part of the MoS, as Michael noted above. I don't exactly have an issue with them being 'grandfathered in', but I think ideally the summaries for those articles should be reviewed and potentially trimmed. I also question whether they'd stand up to a review at this time. In any case, unless there's evidence that the summaries in their current form are also relatively recent developments, they perhaps shouldn't be held up as examples.

Michael: This looks fine to me. Thanks, again, for all of the work you've done on this. DonIago (talk) 14:20, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I've updated the guideline with this consensus version. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Image description page

In the Images section, could we improve the guidance for what to put on the file's description page? It looks like those pages often use Template:Non-free use rationale book cover in addition to Template:Non-free book cover. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 08:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Length of plot summary in proportion to book

For years, this page said Size of the plot summary should be roughly proportional to the size of the plot. This is not always equivalent to the length of the work, since some plots are complex and dense while others are simple and straightforward. In August, that turned into Regardless of the length of the novel, a complex and dense plot will need a longer summary than a simple and straightforward one. But with the recent rewrite, that has now been removed entirely. I suppose the reason for saying A summary for a full-length novel should be between 400 and 700 words is that a summary for a shorter work could be under 400 words. But "full-length" is a bit ambiguous. The current wording could be seen as suggesting that a novella's summary should be much less than 700 words. Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but the point about plot summary length depending more on complexity than on story length was present from 2007 until just weeks ago. So I think it should be reintegrated somehow. That no one objected to this removal doesn't mean much, since the focus was mainly on discouraging plot summaries over 700 words. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 22:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed that we lost that detail. I definitely agree that plot complexity should be the driving factor for length. I'd support adding back in Regardless of the length of the novel, a complex and dense plot will need a longer summary than a simple and straightforward one. or something similar. Over at WP:FILMPLOT they say The summary should not exceed this range unless the film's structure is unconventional, such as with non-linear storylines, or unless the plot is too complicated to summarize in this range. I like that the film version gives an example, though I don't think non-linear storylines exactly apply here. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 22:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This was my attempt, which was reverted. An alternative would be to not specify any minimum length, in which case this whole idea would flow better. I still think it might be better not to specify any minimum length, especially considering that this page is not just about novels per se. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 13:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

"An alternative would be to not specify any minimum length". No, that was rejected immediately above. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

That was why I tried to add something that would fit with the wording that was there, rather than doing a larger rewrite. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 14:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree, but I wouldn't strongly oppose adding Regardless of the length of the novel, a complex and dense plot will need a longer summary than a simple and straightforward one if somebody wants to seek a new widely-supported consensus. More important is the issue of process. The whole paragraph was the subject of recent detailed discussion, and the consensus wording (deliberately leaving out that sentence which is, in my view, little more than a self-evident platitude) was agreed only two weeks ago. It's bad practice and highly wasteful of editors' time to attempt to overturn carefully-constructed agreed wordings on the basis that 'the focus was really' on something else. If anyone thinks it's important enought to seek a new consensus, please ping all those who contributed to the current consensus wording and ask if they'd like it changed. Otherwise, this simply comes across as an attempt to re-insert wording that the community has already agreed should no longer be there. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I think I solved part of the problem by editing the intro, so that we're not saying that this applies "equally" to novellas and short stories. As for the Plot section, I would suggest adding The length of a plot summary should correlate more to the complexity of the plot than to the length of the book. I don't feel strongly enough about that to ping all the editors from the previous discussion, but I will note that a user just above said they hadn't noticed that that detail had been lost, so again, I don't really think the previous discussion should be seen as a rejection of that point. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

When a new text is agreed by consensus, there must by definition be changes. The new consensus replaces the old. Without a new full discussion – which given the shortness of time that has elapsed must in my view include pings to all who previously contributed – there's no basis to select a random element from the superseded wording and put it into the new text. I have no problem with the proposed amendment to the introduction. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I do. The page contains many principles and some explicit instructions (i.e. the numerical boundaries for the plot section). The introduction was clear and accurate as was, the principles apply equally. The plot length numbers apply to an full length novel, there's no benefit in creating and maintaining text here to cover every eventuality. If you encounter a novella that's too long, and you really need to refer to this guidelines to fix it, simply say that it should be concise and cover the important events in the narrative.Scribolt (talk) 16:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I still think this was a worthwhile point, but I guess it wouldn't fit very well with the current wording, and a larger rewrite of that paragraph seems to be out of the question. The edit reverted here was unrelated to that, other than being in the same paragraph. I didn't quite expect such a reaction to the addition of one word which was basically accurate, but whatever. 183.89.250.246 (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Navigation boxes

Should this page include anything about navigation boxes? For instance, the ones that appear at the bottom of The Hound of the Baskervilles. Or would that be too complicated for this page? 183.89.250.246 (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say don't mention. Most novel articles won't have any. Schazjmd (talk) 22:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)