Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2024 December 11
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December 11
How can school records be saved
Re: Paul Martin (illustrator). He attended an art school in the early 1900s. It's stated in the article and backed up with a reference from the New York Times. But the article also states the years he attended and his instructors. That can only be backed up with the old record cards (similar to 3x5 cards) on file. I received a scan of them, but I don't think the picture can be downloaded to Commons due to copyright issues. Do they still apply to something dated to 1906? That date is on the card. Can the picture be downloaded to Wayback instead and reachable via a reference in the WP article? Can the picture just be downsized? Thanks. JimPercy (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- The article Paul Martin (illustrator) already goes into mind-boggling detail and digressions: see note "n" in particular. Is it perhaps time to do some pruning of the article's content? -- Hoary (talk) 12:17, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Half of article's bytes are in references and hiddens and necessary to back up content. Note "n" is about a model twice pictured in the article (Foreign service cover, H-O poster). So you think that should be scaled back or mostly eliminated or hidden. JimPercy (talk) 14:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Note "n" reads in part:
- The artist and model [i.e. the article subject and a boy who modeled for him, respectively] lived on opposite ends of a very long street in Millwood, N.Y. They first met at "Rose and Carl's (for Carlyle) Restaurant" in Millwood. It was a short-lived casualty of the Great Depression. The boy's parents were the namesakes and operators. It was located across from the railroad depot on Station Road. Regular customer Martin often ordered stuffed cabbage and apple pie. He combined getting freshly cooked meals with going to the adjoining post office. Their photo sessions took place from 1930 to 31. Salary: $0.15/pose or $5+/half-day, with free snacks. Donald's [i.e. the boy's] progression follows: a. graduated from Horace Greeley School, 1941; b. participated in Operation Overlord (ADSEC unit); c. lettered in three sports at Rider College, 1946–48; d. worked as a sportswriter for The Daily Item of Port Chester, N.Y., 1948–49; e. worked as an associate editor for Progressive Grocer, 1956–61; f. attended the 65th anniversary ceremonies of the Normandy landings in France, 2009. Video. "Americans in Wartime Experience." "Memories" (paragraph 2). Wayback Machine.
- I don't understand, JimPercy, how the boy's subsequent life informs us about Paul Martin, the ostensible subject of the article, or why anyone needs to know much of the other material. If the reply is something like "It provides color and helps to set the scene", yes: for a magazine article or, better, a book. But this is instead an encyclopedia article. -- Hoary (talk) 01:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I contacted some New York chamber of commerce or something, and they out of the blue told me about someone who actually knew the artist. That place gave me the contact information, without my asking for it. It's very rare to have information from a model of an artist. They are highlighted by Norman Rockwell in his autobiography, but nonexistent elsewhere. Perhaps because info on them does not exist. I think the detail adds to thoroughness. Not for the newsy factor! For instance, they lived on opposite ends of the same street. That can be backed up in the U.S. Census of 1930. There is some outside information on the model in the last sentence of note n. Click "Memories" (2nd paragraph). Maybe I should just put half of note n into a hidden text. But the more deleted, the more lost credibility. Yes, I figured that part you stated would be most objectionable. I stated in the article that the artist often hired local boys. Hence, where they met backs that up. The part "Regular customer to free snacks", from my perspective, gave some insight into the life of the artist, which you seemingly think goes off track. I suppose esp. the wording "free snacks," but the model sure remembered that part. Yes, facts and accuracy and not color. JimPercy (talk) 02:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Update. Fixed. JimPercy (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I contacted some New York chamber of commerce or something, and they out of the blue told me about someone who actually knew the artist. That place gave me the contact information, without my asking for it. It's very rare to have information from a model of an artist. They are highlighted by Norman Rockwell in his autobiography, but nonexistent elsewhere. Perhaps because info on them does not exist. I think the detail adds to thoroughness. Not for the newsy factor! For instance, they lived on opposite ends of the same street. That can be backed up in the U.S. Census of 1930. There is some outside information on the model in the last sentence of note n. Click "Memories" (2nd paragraph). Maybe I should just put half of note n into a hidden text. But the more deleted, the more lost credibility. Yes, I figured that part you stated would be most objectionable. I stated in the article that the artist often hired local boys. Hence, where they met backs that up. The part "Regular customer to free snacks", from my perspective, gave some insight into the life of the artist, which you seemingly think goes off track. I suppose esp. the wording "free snacks," but the model sure remembered that part. Yes, facts and accuracy and not color. JimPercy (talk) 02:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Note "n" reads in part:
- JimPercy, whence did you receive the scan? Offline materials that can be accessed at or requested from institutional archives can still be cited with {{cite archive}}. If received from someone's personal collection, the information cannot be cited at all, even if you upload it somewhere, due to the unverifiable paper trail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:50, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Scan received from Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. His school is also mentioned in the Infobox. JimPercy (talk) 14:10, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like the material you received can be cited without any image upload necessary. I don't understand c:Help:Public domain well enough to determine if your scan can be uploaded: there are some categories of 1906 U.S. media whose copyrights don't expire till 2026. Folly Mox (talk) 18:58, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- But an image offers more proof. There is already a citation in place. Maybe I can just upload to Wayback two of the three "record cards." (I would just have to crop out the third card from the image.) They date to 1902 and 1903. Out of copyright? The most important detail is on those two cards, anyway. They both list the artist's name, address, birthdate, date of admission, and enrolled classes. JimPercy (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC) Update. It seems that template at Commons would work. The second card is dated Oct. 1903 (for school year '03-'04), so that predates 1904. JimPercy (talk) 20:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Anything 1904 or earlier is public domain in the US and can be uploaded to Commons. The level of detail in the article certainly feels excessive to me personally, but JimPercy has clearly put a lot of work into it. I'm not recommending any course of action regarding the prose / footnote situations. Folly Mox (talk) 13:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- But an image offers more proof. There is already a citation in place. Maybe I can just upload to Wayback two of the three "record cards." (I would just have to crop out the third card from the image.) They date to 1902 and 1903. Out of copyright? The most important detail is on those two cards, anyway. They both list the artist's name, address, birthdate, date of admission, and enrolled classes. JimPercy (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC) Update. It seems that template at Commons would work. The second card is dated Oct. 1903 (for school year '03-'04), so that predates 1904. JimPercy (talk) 20:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like the material you received can be cited without any image upload necessary. I don't understand c:Help:Public domain well enough to determine if your scan can be uploaded: there are some categories of 1906 U.S. media whose copyrights don't expire till 2026. Folly Mox (talk) 18:58, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Scan received from Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. His school is also mentioned in the Infobox. JimPercy (talk) 14:10, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I'm not understanding why you feel the need to upload the file? As Folly stated, you can simply cite it -- unless someone is contesting this? I didn't see any mention or reverts on the article page itself. TiggerJay (talk) 03:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have glanced through articles about artists who attended this school. But they either don't mention their (then well-known) instructors by name or else back it up with a printed source. JimPercy (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
How to nominate a website for blacklisting
Over the years, several IP editors have attempted to insert links to a certain commercial website. I think it is time to blacklist that website. Constant314 (talk) 13:36, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Constant314, see MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist § Proposed additions. Folly Mox (talk) 13:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. Constant314 (talk) 13:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
Another question
What does it mean if a language has a star icon next to it? User332224 (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- @User332224: Assuming you're referring to in the list of languages on an article sidebar, the stars indicate that the article's equivalent on that language's Wikipedia is considered a featured article (if the star is gold) or good article (if silver) by that project. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
WP:CALC on a simple claim
Is it acceptable to state that the Little Rock tornado was the first to touch down in the March 31 tornado outbreak? This can be verified here on the storm events database, typically considered reliable, where it is the first entry chronologically (titled MARTINDALE, but entails Little Rock). Departure– (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, I would say that if something was chronologically first, then that would be okay. At worst I would boldly add it to the article. But if it reverted or contested, take it to the talk page, as there might be other reasons beyond simple CALC that is involved. TiggerJay (talk) 00:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Disambiguating pages where visitors overwhelmingly go to a particular topic
Some time ago, I opened a RM to move Android to Android (disambiguation) and retarget to the operating system. There was a unanimous consensus against that. What I'm wondering about is where the line of when to disambiguate versus redirect lies. Visitors to Dime and English overwhelmingly go to the American coin and the language, respectively, but would I be correct in my reading of WP:1OTHER PRIMARY that a redirect would be justified in these cases?
https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=English
https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Dime
Thanks
JayCubby 20:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it is best to simply review both yours as well as prior RMs for those articles, as there were a lot of good points and references to policies and precedents mentioned. TiggerJay (talk) 00:11, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how WP:ONEOTHER applies – Dime and English each have several entries, not just two. jlwoodwa (talk) 07:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
How to add copyright information to an image?
I recently uploaded a file to Wikipedia and I got a notification saying that the image had no copyright information and I needed to add it, but I can't find how to add the copyright information.
I know the copyright license and it is considered free to use.
Thank you! ミラへぜ (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I will note that images are not relevant to the draft process, which only considers the text and sources. I would just remove the image for now until you are able to update the copyright information later. 331dot (talk) 21:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- The image seems to be a professionally taken image, how did you obtain it? 331dot (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am not a photographer of any kind, this image was taken from a professional site that uses a public domain license for all of its images. ミラへぜ (talk) (ping me!) 23:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Where did you get it, please? Be specific. DS (talk) 01:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- For example, [1] has no indication this pic is free to use. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- Where did you get it, please? Be specific. DS (talk) 01:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am not a photographer of any kind, this image was taken from a professional site that uses a public domain license for all of its images. ミラへぜ (talk) (ping me!) 23:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)