Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2022 October 10

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October 10

Help reference for dignitaries at Opening Ceremony Athens 2004

I need help I put in the references about dignitaries to attend the opening Ceremony of the Games of the XXVIII Olympiad, Athens 2004 the Olympic Homecoming on August 13, 2004. Can you fix it and make it correct? 100.2.114.167 (talk) 03:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Mistake by WIKIPEDIA in an article on Mulayan Singh Yadav's death

Please correct the year of death.. it is mentioned as 3022 instead of 2022..

14 hours ago — Mulayam Singh Yadav (22 November 1939 – 3022) was an Indian politician and the founder-patron of the Samajwadi Party. He served for three non-consecutive 103.5.135.70 (talk) 04:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

It's already been fixed... 14 hours ago. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 04:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

A quick question

Hello! Say I found a userpage where someone entered their birth date, and their name. Would that be under the criteria for requesting a revdel? Thanks. BlueNoise (talk) 08:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

If the user added the information themselves using their account and they aren't what would be considered a minor, then it most likely isn't a problem. If another account added the information, then it could be a problem depending on who added it and why they added. For example, it's possible that a user added the information themselves using an IP account for some reason. If the information was added by someone other than the user, the user is still an active and they haven't removed the information, then it most likely isn't a problem or at least not something that the user is worried about. For minors, a bit more caution may be needed. If you come across someone claiming to be a minor posting personal information on their user page, you might want to email WP:OVERSIGHT and let them know. If there's a problem, an oversighter will take care of it; if there's not, they will leave the page as is. Someone might be pretending to be a minor, but there's no way of knowing for sure since there's really no required age for editing Wikipedia. If you're not, sure emailing OVERSIGHT is probably the best thing to do. -- Marchjuly (talk) 09:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

can't add bullet

The T-14 Armata next-generation Russian main battle tank

fair use. Teaching education research culturally historically aesthetically significant. Military Channel J (talk) 09:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Military Channel J: Wikipedia rules are stricter than fair use. All the criteria at WP:NFCC must be met. RudolfRed (talk) 17:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Salim Abdool Karim

I recently edited the page for Salim Abdool Karim, and all my changes have been reverted. I used citations, links and references, all credible information. Please assist with this. Nikita Devnarain (talk) 09:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Nikita Devnarain As noted by the editor in the edit log, your edits were removed mainly because autobiographies are not an acceptable source. Wikipedia is primarily interested in what independent reliable sources say about a topic, not what they say about themselves. A secondary reason it was removed it because you copied it from another location- content should be in your own words, and though you used public domain information in this case, in general copying content from elsewhere is a copyright violation, see WP:COPYVIO. 331dot (talk) 09:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move

What's the process of requesting a page move on the English Wikipedia? Thanks. 12u (talk) 10:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

12u This is requested at Requested Moves. If you think it will be completely uncontroversial, you can go directly there, but if you think anyone at all may object, you should first hold a discussion on the article talk page. Please also be aware of WP:COMMONNAME. 331dot (talk) 10:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

To add to that, if you think the move will be uncontroversial and the title you're trying to move to does not exist yet, you can actually perform the move yourself. If you for some reason can't, you can post to Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. For moves that may be controversial, you should post on the talk page using the template {{subst:Requested move}}. Madeline (part of me) 10:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@331dot; @Maddy from Celeste: Thanks to the both of you for your kind help. I do actually have access to perform the move myself, however I do see that the move could be controversial and I therefore wanted to hold a discussion first. I have now successfully requested the move on the article's talk page. 12u (talk) 10:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

images

can images count as sources 2006toyotacorrola (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Not really. Can you give a specific example on what text you'd like to add to what article based on what image? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

it's copyrighted 2006toyotacorrola (talk) 10:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

and i'd like to say stagecoach operate caetano levante whn i can find lots of images but almost no reputable text surces 2006toyotacorrola (talk) 10:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@2006toyotacorrola "Stagecoach operate caetano levante" is confusing. What is it supposed to mean? David10244 (talk) 03:03, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, they can in principle, but it's not very often that it will work. First, like any other source, the image must have been reliably published. If the image is just somewhere on the internet, then it is not a reliable source, and cannot be used. Second, there aren't many kinds of information that can be satisfactorily verified by an image. A photo that shows two identifiable people is probably evidence that they were in each others' company at least once, but probably not that either of them was present at some particular event, unless there is solid visual evidence for the event in the picture.

In your case, you are wanting to verify that Stagecoach Group operate Salvador Caetano's "Levante" model of bus, and I'm guessing that you want to do so by citing an image of a Levante bus in Stagecoach livery. I think the answer is "maybe". If it's on Caetano's website, then it is probably to be classed as reliable, but not independent. There is also the question of whether the information (that S operate CLs) is encyclopaedic, if you can't find any textual statement of it anywhere. ColinFine (talk) 04:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I can only find it on sites such as bustimes.org and [1] 2006toyotacorrola (talk) 06:19, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

In text but i can find plenty on flickr 2006toyotacorrola (talk) 06:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@2006toyotacorrola ColinFine's comment that the information might not be encyclopedic is a hint that possibly, the information doesn't actually need to be included in the article. Then the question of sourcing won't come up. Of course, his hint is not an absolute ban on you trying to get the info there. David10244 (talk) 05:43, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Baptism record as source for birth

Before civil record keeping, baptism records tend to be the only source for estimating when and where someone was born. In the overwhelming majority of cases, someone baptised in Example Village on 10 October 1770 would have been born in Example Village a few days earlier, but this is impossible to prove. (In some cases, the mother may have stayed elsewhere - perhaps with relatives - at the time of a child's birth, or the baptism may not have followed closely on the birth.)

Can baptism records be used on Wikipedia to state when and where someone was born? As a case in point, the article William Shakespeare states he was born in Stratford-upon-Avon but does not cite a source; we only know he was baptised there. Ni'jluuseger (talk) 12:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

See WP:RSPRIMARY. It is rarely wise to use baptismal records as Wikipedia sources at all. We much prefer to cite secondary sources, written by subject-matter experts, since they are more likely to have the skills and knowledge necessary to correctly interpret such material. As for Shakespeare's place of birth, if it is unsourced, you should probably raise the matter on the article talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

It does cite a source, [2] p24, but all it says is "baptised", which can be read as Schoenbaum agreeing with you. @Xover, should we rewrite? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

If absolutely needed I can probably scare up a few hundred sources to say he was born in Stratford-upon-Avon, and most likely in the birthplace (rather than in the neighbouring wool-shop; do you want the speculation as to which room he was born in? `Cause I can probably scare that up for you too. Just sayin'…). But this fact just simply is not in dispute, which is why we're citing Schoenbaum for the date (with all its subtleties) rather than the place.

But you probably don't want to use Shakespeare as an example: over 400 years of accumulated and accelerating scholarship makes him unique, and it is highly unlikely you'll find anyone whose biography is so well attested (not even Jesus). So for any real case (for which Shakespeare is here being used as a hypothetical) you'll need to assess the actual facts. Is there secondary sourcing? Are the sources high-quality and reliable? Do they address the relevant question (place or date of birth) directly? Do they address the baptismal records directly? Are there controversies or complicating circumstances that merit extra caution (someone travelling at the time of birth may be baptised much later and in a different place; or small parishes may see children baptised in a neighbouring parish out of convenience or similar; etc.)?

Baptismal records are certainly primary sources and must be used on their own with caution, but so long as they are mediated through a secondary source of at least minimally acceptable quality, and absent actual causes for controversy, relying on them for basic facts such as the date and the fact the birth almost certainly happened in the parish in which the baptism took place is uncontroversial. "Could theoretically have happened" is a far cry from "significant doubt"; we just don't want random Wikipedia editors making that call themselves based on the primary sources. Xover (talk) 15:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Case in point: the first bardbio I checked—Smith, Emma. The Cambridge Shakespeare Guide (2019). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press—says William Shakespeare was born in Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwickshire in April 1564 …, and then dives into a discussion of the trouble of pinning down the date (all subsequent scholars rely on Schoenbaum for that, incidentally; our use of him as the source for this in the article here was not accidental). Xover (talk) 15:20, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but does it say he was English!!?? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure we actually had that fight too, somewhere down in the deep archives. Though that might have been someone objecting to referring to him as British (English nationalism is a thing—for some reason—and there are traces of that fight strewn all over the project; now also exported to Wikidata short descriptions). And then there's the revision history of Kenneth Branagh: is he a British actor of Irish descent? An Irish actor? Just a plain British actor? *sigh* Xover (talk) 21:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

So we have the interesting circumstance that while no primary source may exist that states incontrovertibly that X was born in Y, when one or more reputable secondary sources are satisfied (based on their assessment of the primary sources) that X can be reasonably stated to have been born in Y (because baptised there, perhaps among other reasons), then Wikipedia can go with that secondary source, and it's not our problem that the primary sources don't literally prove when or where someone was born.

I see Shakespeare proved an excellent example to kindle some thinking about this, and I see Shakespeare's Birthplace duly says it's the house "where it is believed that William Shakespeare was born". William Shakespeare, on the contrary, states the place of birth as though known fact, though that may be based on good secondary sources doing the same, which makes it cool for Wikipedia. Ni'jluuseger (talk) 04:02, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

That's an apt summary. We cannot, in general, decide we do not want to follow the secondary sources based on our own assessment of the primary sources. They are the experts that can assess whether the evidence is sufficient for whatever conclusion. Xover (talk) 06:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I can imagine the fun of a centuries-long controversy, along the lines of the authorship question, as to whether Shakespeare was actually born - not just baptised - in Stratford, or whether the family happened to be holidaying in Cornwall at the time, etc. Ni'jluuseger (talk) 08:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

That can be fun, yes. Let me give you this quote from a different article: "Scholars Oliver Rackham and Peter Roberts have suggested that the age on the painting does not match Marlowe's age. They argue that ætatis suæ 21 means "in his 21st year", i.e. aged 20; which, combined with Marlowe's baptism date of February 1563 in the old style dates used at the time, would require the sitter to be at least a year younger than Marlowe."

On topic though, I doubt any scholars have spent much time thinking beyond "His mum lived in Stratford, so absent records to the contrary, there's no reason to speculate on her having him elsewhere." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey, scholars have to keep busy! And yeah, absent atomic proof, Occam's razor obtains and it's pointless to speculate whether WS might have been born - if not at the holiday home in Cornwall - in Wilmcote, at a stone's throw from Stratford, where his mother was being cared for by rellies during her pregnancy, this never having been recorded anywhere. Even if it's perfectly possible, tee-hee. Ni'jluuseger (talk) 09:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

WP:ONEOTHER deletions

Can disambiguation pages, failing per WP:ONEOTHER be deleted per WP:CSD#G14 or do we need to start an AfD? Thanks! —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

You could tag them as G14, but that would be for the discovering admin to deal with. I usually chuck them to WP:MFD as they aren't articles. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: What do you think about Non-cooperation movement (disambiguation)? —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 20:06, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

White-on-transparent logos

Hi all, I was thinking of uploading the logo of The Trevor Project. However, on their website, the logo is a file with white foreground and transparent background, always displayed on another couloured background. I was wondering what I can do about this when uploading to Wikipedia. Would it for example be permissible to invert the colours, or add a coloured background to the file itself? Madeline (part of me) 16:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Maddy from Celeste: I just added the logo with the tangerine background that shows up when you Google them and select images. See The Trevor Project TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Asking for closing an AfD

I can't close an AfD in which I voted but can I ask someone who didn't to do it? Dr Salvus 16:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

for this you would have to go to the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents for help as only they can close them. Td^she/her 16:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I think WP:RFCL would be a better choice. And non-admins can close afd:s. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

donation to wiki

Hello there, Received an email from Jimmy wales about donation, need more info. How to speak to someone to find details... Buyersellerasia (talk) 21:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Buyersellerasia: For questions about fundraising, contact please email donate(@)wikimedia.org RudolfRed (talk) 21:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

And would like to mention, the Wikimedia Foundation does not need your donations at all. They already have more than 200 million sitting in the bank. Sungodtemple (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, if they have so much money, when every time i visit a page, a pop up windows show up and they cry not to leave without donating $$$$...? Buyersellerasia (talk) 21:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Buyersellerasia: If you go into preferences, you can disable the fundraising banners. RudolfRed (talk) 21:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

How to stop haters from flagging and trying to delete my page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Since the OP has been indefinitely blocked, there's not much more that can be done here at the Help Desk to help them with this. Further comments could be made on the OPs user talk page, but right now the main focus of the OP should be WP:UNBLOCK and not about things related any articles or drafts. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:56, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

---

Good day to all of you, My question is how to stop or block the haters who like to see your pages deleted or flagged. I just got my page up only 4/5 days and already got a hater. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Buyersellerasia (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Buyersellerasia: Which article? Your draft at Draft:Kazi_Ahmed was deleted due to advertising/promotion, which is not allowed. RudolfRed (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

you referred to a wrong article.... Buyersellerasia (talk) 22:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

But you won't tell us which one you are referring to? RudolfRed (talk) 22:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Buyersellerasia: You don't. We do not care what their motivation is. We only care about whether or not an article meets the deletion criteria. Someone flagged the article as unambigous promotion. An experienced administrator agreed and deleted the article. End of story. If the admin had not agreed that it was a clear-cut case, the article would have been put through the more rigorous "articles for deletion" process and would likely have been deleted anyway. Please read WP:N. You do not seem to understand what Wikipedia is. -Arch dude (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

i am talking about another page... Buyersellerasia (talk) 22:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Buyersellerasia Which page? Note that only administrators can see deleted pages. Sungodtemple (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I hired a freelancer and created a page for me, but already a hater is after my page and flagged it.

Trying to get some help not only stop haters, also improve to make my wiki page even improve further. Would you be interested to help. Buyersellerasia (talk) 22:22, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Sungodtemple

I hired a freelancer and created a page for me, but already a hater is after my page and flagged it.

Trying to get some help not only stop haters, also improve to make my wiki page even improve further. Would you be interested to help. Buyersellerasia (talk) 22:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Which Wiki page? We aren't mind readers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

We're not going to waste our time trying to improve a page that is so fundamentally flawed that it would need a complete and utter rewrite to make acceptable. Please quit trying to use Wikipedia to aggrandise yourself. (NOTE: I have tagged the article for speedy deletion as blatant and irreparable advertizing/promotion.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 22:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Pretty sure this is Kazi Ahmed (inventor). Which is highly promotional. And if what Buyersellerasia says is true, also means User:Abusayeed did not identify as a paid editor. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Fixing mention. User:AbuSayeed is what I meant. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

i expected to fix some issues and help him, though didn't receive any amount. I'm aware of disclosure policy and respect others private information. even no transactions haven't been made yet. also I asked for help regarding this in teahouse yesterday.--AbuSayeed (talk) 00:41, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

There's also Kazi Ahmed (artist) which was deleted a few years back. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam

Thank you for your feedback. I am totally new in this. How can I improve and make sure it is done with the wiki terms, so no one can flag? Please share your thoughts. Highly appreciate it. Buyersellerasia (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Bluntly speaking, you realistically cannot do so and nor can any mercenary writer you hire. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 22:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, a first step would be to stop with the insulting claim that someone who accurately tags your promotional article with a massive conflict of interest ... as an article with a conflict of interest is a "hater". But I'm not terribly interested in helping someone who is all aggressive and indignant when we don't know what page we're talking about, and all conciliatory once we figure it out. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

"Kazi Ahmed... founded Buyer Seller Asia, an online marketplace that connects South Asian manufacturers, wholesalers to the global buyers based in Singapore, and Key West, Florida" --Orange Mike | Talk 23:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@AbuSayeed vai, creating the whole article, adding references (those were promotional refs), uploading photo, translating the article to other wikis etc is more than just "i expected to fix some issues and help him". আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 01:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tibetan art museum

I am on the board of a small Tibetan art museum. I was reading several pages...and I would like to use some of the content (intact/without additional edits)...am I allowed to do such a thing? There were several descriptions for instance I would like to use...do I need to source the information even if I make some minor changes to the content. 2601:8C:4A81:C240:E0BC:F968:801E:61C7 (talk) 22:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

You can use any of the text, provided you give attribution. See WP:REUSE for more info. RudolfRed (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi IP 2601:8C:4A81:C240:E0BC:F968:801E:61C7. If you would like to use such content on other Wikipedia pages, then please also take a look at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Such things can be done, but it still needs to be done in accordance with relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:00, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

By all means, feel free to use and even modify any of the text under the terms of the CC-BY-SA. Note that CC-BY-SA imposes two obligations. First, you must attribute the source. Second, you must license the resulting derived work (e.g., web page, brochure, book, etc.) under the same license. You may also use almost all of the images under the same terms, but check the license of each image separately, since we use some images under a "fair" use" rationale. You are NOT free to use those images under CC-BY-SA, and you must make your own separate determination as to whether or not you are justified in using them under a fair use rationale. As a separate issue, you are probably well qualified to help us, if you have the time. If you see a problem within Wikipedia, please fix it! You will need to cite a reliable source if you do this. If you are uncomfortable with editing a Wikipedia article, then make your suggestion for a change on the articles talk page. -Arch dude (talk) 02:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)