User talk:SMcCandlish/Archive 215
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October 2024
Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment
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Feedback request: Society, sports, and culture request for comment
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Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment
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Nomination for deletion of Template:Lang-en-XX usage
DoneTemplate:Lang-en-XX usage has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 22:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Feedback request: Wikipedia technical issues and templates request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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October thanks
 | |
| story · music · places |
|---|
Thank you for improving articles on October! - My story today is a cantata 300 years old, based on a hymn 200 years old when the cantata was composed, based on a psalm some thousand years old, - so said the 2015 DYK hook. I had forgotten the discussion on the talk. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Happy whatever you celebrate today, - more who died, more to come, and they made the world richer. Greetings from Madrid where I took the pic of assorted Cucurbita in 2016. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
the proposed merge/discuss template you added to WP:V
Hi, in Dec. 2023 you added a proposed merge template to the ABOUTSELF section of WP:V and linked to a discussion on the Talk page. I was curious about the discussion, so I clicked the link to read it, got a Talk page message that the topic couldn't be found, and then found it in the archives. I'm wondering if that merge template should be removed at this point, but I'm not that experienced an editor, so I'm hesitant to edit a policy page and figured I'd check with you instead. Since the topic interests you, I'll also note that in response to a question I asked at the Teahouse, Pigsonthewing added text to the corresponding BLPSPS section noting that "It does not refer to a reputable organisation publishing material about who it employs or to whom and why it grants awards, for example." Thanks, FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- The merge clearly has consensus to happen, and should happen. I personally walked away from it because of WP:STONEWALL behavior by a single editor who refused to budge on some pet peeve, but this interpersonal problem should not hold up the merger of these redundant policy sections (three of them, actually, not two). Given the level of nit-picking over every single word in that policy material, I'm skeptical that Pigsonthewing's undiscussed addition would survive consensus scrutiny. It seems overly specific, like something that would be in a list of examples in a guideline or essay, and is not policy wording. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Everyone involved in the merge discussion walked away from it many months ago, so it's not clear to me that someone will now act on it. Should the Discuss link at least be updated so that it links to the archived discussion? Re: Pigsonthewing's addition, no doubt the wording could be improved, but I hope that consensus could be achieved for some related text. (It was intended to clarify the BLPSPS statement "Never use self-published sources ... as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article," which I'd asked about in the context of a WP article about a notable academic, as I'd thought that policy meant that I couldn't use a self-published statement from a professional society about an award it gave.) FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the link in the tag should be updated. I might work up the drama stomach to just re-open the discussion, or even just WP:BOLDly do the merge and conforming revision and see whether I get reverted by the same lone hold-out. But I have a lot going on right now. As for Potw's material and the issue you and he were trying to solve with it, the real solution is rewriting the BLP-specific material entirely to be more clear, instead of leaving unclear wording in place, and tacking on explanatory exceptions, which will simply grow in number as needs for exception to the poorly worded original material arise. It likely that the revision already covered by the merge discussion would obviate this problem anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I've updated the Discuss link. No rush on however you choose to follow up. If you do reopen the discussion, I may chime in about how the proposed text reads to someone who isn't as experienced and is trying to make sense of and abide by policies. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Curious what it is now. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:10, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- This comment focuses on draft #3 but also applies to the existing version of the WP:V page. In point 1, I wondered whether "The material" refers to the material added to the WP page or to the source material, and similarly for "It" at the beginning of points 2 and 3. I'm pretty sure that standard grammar says that the referent is the SPS, and that's clearly the intended referent of "its" in point 4. But I question that interpretation, as it surprises me that there would be so many constraints on the contents of the source material, whereas the constraints make more sense to me as restrictions on material added to the WP article and the BLP footnote implies that the source material can contain a statement about third parties as long as it isn't introduced into the article using that source. So that's a long explanation for: I'd clarify the meaning of "The material" / "It." I've also sometimes wondered if my judgment about what constitutes "unduly self-serving" is OK, but I doubt that that can be easily defined, so I'll trust my judgment and hope that if it's off, someone else will remove what I added.
- Re: whether the revision obviates the problem I mentioned, I don't think it does, as my concern was really about the text of BLPSPS, not the text of BLPSELFPUB. BTW, I noticed that someone removed the merge template from the BLP page, so if you do reopen the discussion, you may want to reintroduce it there. FactOrOpinion (talk) 00:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- The referents clarity issue is probably easily soluble. But "unduly self-serving" is typical "leave it to an editorial consensus on a case-by-case basis" WP wording. Changing that to some kind of bright-line test of some type would be a very substantive alteration and entail a great deal of new debate. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- I've been participating in a long discussion about what does/doesn't fall under the definition of self-published (started at this WP:RSN discussion and continued at this WP:V talk page discussion; if you're interested in the disagreement, this is my attempt to capture the two main views in a possible RfC). A couple of exchanges got me thinking more about ABOUTSELF and whether the sentence that Pigsonthewing added to BLPSPS ("It does not refer to a reputable organisation publishing material about who it employs or to whom and why it grants awards, for example") is actually an ABOUTSELF situation rather than a BLPSPS situation. In particular, do employees fall under an organization's "about themselves" in the first sentence of ABOUTSELF, or do they instead count as a third party in point 2 of ABOUTSELF? Do outside award recipients fall under the awarding organization's "about themselves," or do they instead count as a third party under point 2? I've also wondered whether third parties need to be personally identifiable to fall under point 2 (e.g., "my opponent" in a political campaign does, but "movie critics" might not, and "Americans" doesn't). FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly, that's a thornier set of V/RS questions than I usually get into, and am very distracted/stressed by the looming US election. The merge stuff (which still needs to be done) was just about consolidating duplicate material, smoothing out subtle conflicts between the version, and ensuring the final result has grammar that actually makes sense. It wasn't trying to make any substantive change of any kind (or weigh in one someone else's desire for a substantive change). It sounds to me like is new wrangling over definitions will need to be resolved before the merger discussion can resume, since the underlying wording at one or more of the places this wording "lives" might meaningfully change in short order. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm feeling anxious about the election too. I should have been clearer that I wasn't looking for answers to my questions but instead just noting additional questions that can arise for a not-so-experienced editor trying to make sense of the ABOUTSELF policy. Wishing you well, FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly, that's a thornier set of V/RS questions than I usually get into, and am very distracted/stressed by the looming US election. The merge stuff (which still needs to be done) was just about consolidating duplicate material, smoothing out subtle conflicts between the version, and ensuring the final result has grammar that actually makes sense. It wasn't trying to make any substantive change of any kind (or weigh in one someone else's desire for a substantive change). It sounds to me like is new wrangling over definitions will need to be resolved before the merger discussion can resume, since the underlying wording at one or more of the places this wording "lives" might meaningfully change in short order. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've been participating in a long discussion about what does/doesn't fall under the definition of self-published (started at this WP:RSN discussion and continued at this WP:V talk page discussion; if you're interested in the disagreement, this is my attempt to capture the two main views in a possible RfC). A couple of exchanges got me thinking more about ABOUTSELF and whether the sentence that Pigsonthewing added to BLPSPS ("It does not refer to a reputable organisation publishing material about who it employs or to whom and why it grants awards, for example") is actually an ABOUTSELF situation rather than a BLPSPS situation. In particular, do employees fall under an organization's "about themselves" in the first sentence of ABOUTSELF, or do they instead count as a third party in point 2 of ABOUTSELF? Do outside award recipients fall under the awarding organization's "about themselves," or do they instead count as a third party under point 2? I've also wondered whether third parties need to be personally identifiable to fall under point 2 (e.g., "my opponent" in a political campaign does, but "movie critics" might not, and "Americans" doesn't). FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
- The referents clarity issue is probably easily soluble. But "unduly self-serving" is typical "leave it to an editorial consensus on a case-by-case basis" WP wording. Changing that to some kind of bright-line test of some type would be a very substantive alteration and entail a great deal of new debate. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- Curious what it is now. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:10, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I've updated the Discuss link. No rush on however you choose to follow up. If you do reopen the discussion, I may chime in about how the proposed text reads to someone who isn't as experienced and is trying to make sense of and abide by policies. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the link in the tag should be updated. I might work up the drama stomach to just re-open the discussion, or even just WP:BOLDly do the merge and conforming revision and see whether I get reverted by the same lone hold-out. But I have a lot going on right now. As for Potw's material and the issue you and he were trying to solve with it, the real solution is rewriting the BLP-specific material entirely to be more clear, instead of leaving unclear wording in place, and tacking on explanatory exceptions, which will simply grow in number as needs for exception to the poorly worded original material arise. It likely that the revision already covered by the merge discussion would obviate this problem anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Everyone involved in the merge discussion walked away from it many months ago, so it's not clear to me that someone will now act on it. Should the Discuss link at least be updated so that it links to the archived discussion? Re: Pigsonthewing's addition, no doubt the wording could be improved, but I hope that consensus could be achieved for some related text. (It was intended to clarify the BLPSPS statement "Never use self-published sources ... as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article," which I'd asked about in the context of a WP article about a notable academic, as I'd thought that policy meant that I couldn't use a self-published statement from a professional society about an award it gave.) FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Invitation to participate in a research
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Hanni Pham
DoneCould you kindly comment on Talk:Hanni_(singer). There is an issue which you appear to have some past experience in. Travelmite (talk) Travelmite (talk) 07:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments, but just to clarify, at issue is the nationality line in the infobox. The article contradicts your apparent conclusion. Travelmite (talk) 10:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
ANI notice
Done
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
Can I order...
1 pair of partypants please, size M, in red [1]
Best typo this year. Knitsey (talk) 22:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Heh. I need to trademark PartiPants. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- I've just searched for partipants, it's amazing how many official documents came up lol. And now it's in my phone :( Knitsey (talk) 22:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe there's a style of semi-formal Business PartiPants for office parties. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think you might be onto a winner! Knitsey (talk) 23:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe there's a style of semi-formal Business PartiPants for office parties. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- I've just searched for partipants, it's amazing how many official documents came up lol. And now it's in my phone :( Knitsey (talk) 22:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Nationalist editing
Following up from your comments on Hanni (singer) and also discovering a widespread problem in music artist pages, I have written a section under Wikipedia:Nationalist editing regarding my understanding of WP:BLP, in particular, about making presumptions about citizenship and ethnicity in biographies. It deserves to be reviewed and refined by those with a long-term interest in Wikipedia policy. Travelmite (talk) 07:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Travelmite: Tweaked it a little for clarity and such, but overall it appears sensible, policy-correct, and addressing common actual issues. Well done. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
In all seriousness
Can you recommend the brand of keyboard you are using? My current keyboard is terrible, but the one I had before it helped me type incredibly fast. Given how many words you wrote on Randy’s page, I was wondering if you could share your preference for keyboard brands. Viriditas (talk) 16:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker)[2] Andre🚐 16:41, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Viriditas and Andrevan: I've tried some very expensive top-of-the-line gamer keyboards, and they all failed within 6 to 18 months. I find that I can type much faster on a keyboard with mechanical and tacticle (not "squishy", but also not loud "clicky") keys and a fairly short but not crazy-short key-press depth and pressure. So, that still translates to a gamer keyboard, specifically with ALPS Brown switches or the equivalent type from another manufacturer. Rather than burn $200+ on another high-end keyboard of this sort, I instead got two Redragon Devarajas (model K556RGB) for less than half the total price (MSRP supposedly about US$80 each, but street price really typically $60, and sometimes on sale – right now at the maker's own website for $48, though Amazon's $60 includes shipping if you have Prime). I'm actively using one, and keeping one as a backup.
This is the same approach I took with my vertical mouse, which has saved my right wrist. I use the cheap but effective Zelotes C18 (also re-branded as Anker by one vendor), with one in reserve for when I burn out the scroll wheel or whatever. (Don't be impressed with its "joystick"; it does no diagonal, so is no use for gaming, but can be programmed to output 4 arbitrary strings, so is handy as a macro device for tedious stuff like your postal address. They have a model without that feature, too.)
The first Devarajas keyboard has been doing very well so far for about a year, other than once every two weeks or so it seems to lose its USB connection and has to be unplugged and plugged back in (it's obvious when this happens since the RGB lights go out). If you don't like the RGB stuff, it can be turned off, but I find it helpful for low-light usage. I have the stock Apple squishy keyboard on my old Mac (mostly just a media server at this point) and find it frustrating. It definitely cuts my typing speed and accuracy. PS: There are probably wireless equivalents of the keyboard and mouse models I mentioned, but I prefer wired because I don't have to remember to recharge them. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Viriditas and Andrevan: I've tried some very expensive top-of-the-line gamer keyboards, and they all failed within 6 to 18 months. I find that I can type much faster on a keyboard with mechanical and tacticle (not "squishy", but also not loud "clicky") keys and a fairly short but not crazy-short key-press depth and pressure. So, that still translates to a gamer keyboard, specifically with ALPS Brown switches or the equivalent type from another manufacturer. Rather than burn $200+ on another high-end keyboard of this sort, I instead got two Redragon Devarajas (model K556RGB) for less than half the total price (MSRP supposedly about US$80 each, but street price really typically $60, and sometimes on sale – right now at the maker's own website for $48, though Amazon's $60 includes shipping if you have Prime). I'm actively using one, and keeping one as a backup.
- +1 the vertical mouse and the wrist thing. I have a Nulea M504. What also saved my wrist and improved my wpm was switching to the wikt:ortholinear layout Andre🚐 22:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- Nulea M504, even cheaper! How does it perform? I should probably have another backup device, since I'm using the other Zelotes on the Mac now. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- I like it. I had an Anker one before this and this one has outlasted it so far. It has a configurable color LED which isn't very useful but decorative, but more importantly, you can adjust the sensitivity with a button press, and it also has hardware back and forward rocker buttons. Plus, it works without any config or software in Linux Andre🚐 23:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- Cool. I think I will order one, just because I'm not 100% satisfied with the scroll wheel on the Zelotes. It's good to have options. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- I like it. I had an Anker one before this and this one has outlasted it so far. It has a configurable color LED which isn't very useful but decorative, but more importantly, you can adjust the sensitivity with a button press, and it also has hardware back and forward rocker buttons. Plus, it works without any config or software in Linux Andre🚐 23:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- Nulea M504, even cheaper! How does it perform? I should probably have another backup device, since I'm using the other Zelotes on the Mac now. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Feedback request: Wikipedia technical issues and templates request for comment
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