Talk:Young adult literature/Archive 1

Archive 1

WikiProject

Is there any interest here in a WikiProject for the family of articles comprising children's and young adult literature coverage? I've made a proposal for a WikiProject, and I encourage people to view my proposal, edit it if they like, and sign up. It would be great to put an organised effort into rethinking these pages.

Wikipedia:Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects#Children.27s_Literature

Deborah-jl _Talk 06:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Globalization

Please see my post at Talk:Children's_literature#Globalization for reasons for this tag, as well as suggestions about which works to add to solve this problem.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

List

Per agreement, I've removed the list to its own page. Personally, I'd like to get rid of both list of young adult authors and list of children's literature authors; there's a fuzzy border between them and it seems to me that the list could be much better maintained with categories. Comments? Deborah-jl 15:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Categories only work in areas where each item has an article. This is appropriate use of a list. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

True. Thanks for helping me rethink my fundamental problem with this list, is that there's no criteria for inclusion. It's not bestsellers, or notable enough to get wikipedia articles and therefore category entries, or award winning, or by authors with red hair... it's just a list of books people think of. Can we come up with some meaningful criteria such that -- in theory -- the list could be complete without having entries for every YA book ever published? Deborah-jl _Talk 06:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

We could certainly come up with several distinct criteria for inclusion: winning certain awards, common inclusion in the school curriculum for certain years. So far, this article is very U.S.-centric. It would be interesting to find equivalents for other countries and languages. - Jmabel | Talk 03:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely! I wish I knew more about non-historical YA lit outside of the US and Britain, but I might be able to recruit people to get more information. Deborah-jl _Talk 00:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I just popped in and found your list of young adult literature authors. Personally, I find it very useful to have these authors listed separately. As a librarian in a brand-new intermediate school (6th and 7th grades), I find it very useful to have so I can not only research what books to get, but also in building a page on our website where kids can look up their favorite authors. This helps me tremendously in putting this page together. Young adult literature is most often lumped together with children's literature (which of course includes picture books), and separating them out is a big task. --SharonW — Preceding unsigned comment added by SharonW (talk • contribs) 14:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandelism

This page was recently vandelised, probably best if an eye is kept on it! (Million Moments 19:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by M G Tuffen (talk • contribs) 18:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Self-promotion and original research?

User:Mike Klaassen has added multiple external links to articles that he wrote himself. They need to be checked against Wikipedia's self-promotion and no original research policies. —Lowellian (reply) 16:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Compliance. Thank you for bringing these subjects to my attention. I have read the articles listed above and will edit accordingly in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Klaassen (talk • contribs) 10:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Sarah Trimmer - young adulthood

Hi, In the article on young adulthood, it is stated that Sarah Trimmer first noted this period in 1802. I'm currently doing a PhD on young adult literature and urgently need to find where this reference came from. Can anyone help me with this please? My address is charlene.okane@gmail.com and I would appreciate any information.

Many thanks, --Charlene87 (talk) 19:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Charlene87, did you find this source? I am interested to know what it is. Otherwise, does anyone following this dicussion mind if we delete that comment until we can find a source? Given the importance of our understanding of young people in the study of young-adult fiction, I think it's important that we don't make unsubstantiated claims about when we began to make distinctions between children and young adults. For the purpose of understanding the history of young-adult fiction, Trimmer's definition of books for 'young persons' seems sufficient. --Wiki apprentice (talk) 11:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Young adult vs. Young-adult

Why is RussBot inserting a hyphen into the title of this article? I have never seen young adult spelled with a hyphen. GUllman 20:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There should not be a hyphen. On his move edit summary, User:Mike Klaassen wrote "Young adult, as a noun, isn't hyphonated. But preceding another noun, it becomes a compound modifier and warrants a hyphen for clarity and ease of reading." Though it is usually the case that compound modifiers are hyphenated, "young adult" is an established genre in the publishing industry which neither publishers nor retailers generally hyphenate. —Lowellian (reply) 16:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, although it might be grammatically correct, an encyclopedia should be descriptive, not prescriptive. GUllman 21:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, but please review the section for hyphens under Wikipedia: Manual of Style (Wikipedia Shortcut: wp:hyphen), especially regarding compound adjectives. Young adult is a noun and a genre, but young-adult fiction should be hyphenated, according to the Wikipedia style manual. Mike Klaassen 21:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Recognition of the noun young adult and its punctuation as an adjectival modifier are inconsistent. Some dictionaries recognize young adult as a noun (Random House, 2nd 1987), while others do not (Webster's International, 3rd 2002). When recognized (as by Random House), young adult is treated as an open compound noun, with no hyphen. When the phrase young adult is placed before a noun (such as fiction, novel, or author), however, sometimes a hyphen is used and sometimes not. A internet search of news stories, using key words young adult fiction, shows inconsistent use of the hyphen. But the Chicago Manual of Style clearly addresses the issue in "Compounds and Hyphenation," sections 7.82-7.86, "When such compounds precede a noun, hyphenation usually makes for easier reading. With the exception of proper nouns (such as United States) and compounds formed by an adverb ending in ly plus an adjective, it is never incorrect to hypenate adjectival compounds before a noun."(Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition 2003, p. 300) And according to the Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference, "The most complicated business conducted by hyphens is uniting words into adjectival compounds that precede nouns. Many writers neglect to hyphenate such compounds, and the result is ramshackle sentences that often frustrate the reader." (Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference 2005, p. 274) The Wikipedia Manual of Style also addresses the issue of hyphens for compound adjectives. [[1]] Mike Klaassen 22:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[Moved in Nov 2014 from article where it was added by Mike Klaasen on 2 November 2007:]

Although none of the sources cited above list young adult as an example, each clearly expresses a preference for hyphenating compound modifiers. With that in mind, young adult is a noun (without a hyphen) as defined by Random House. But when the noun young adult precedes another noun, it becomes a compound modifier and warrants a hyphen, as in young-adult fiction, young-adult author, young-adult novel, and so on. Because the sources do not declare the absence of a hyphen as grammatically incorrect, widespread inconsistencies in the punctuation of young adult are likely to continue, either out of ignorance or as conscious choice of style.

I don't wish to argue either side of this issue, but I will ask a question motivated only by curiosity.

I have never seen the term "science fiction novel" hyphenated. Why is that? I notice that "science" and "fiction" are always nouns, whereas both "young" and "adult" can be used as either a noun or an adjective. Is is proper not to hyphenate the modifier "science fiction" because both terms are nouns, whereas it IS proper to hyphenate the modifier "young-adult" because both terms are adjectives?

If this is the case, some of the inconsistency might be explained by the fact that both "young" and "adult" are also nouns. KennyLucius 20:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

If you do a Google search of news articles using the key words science, fiction, and novel, you will find examples of "science-fiction novel." Also many examples without the hyphen. Frustrating isn't it? Mike Klaassen 21:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't even imagine why this topic is a heading under this subject. It has no zero relevance to a reader who wants to know something about YA fiction. It's a pedantic issue best reserved for these discussion pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.15.106.226 (talk) 15:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Light novel merge?

After reading the Light Novel article, I added a Light Novel section to Young-adult Fiction. Mike Klaassen (talk) 20:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Light novels are written not only for teens, i.e. seinen books are targeted at older male audience. See, for example, Dengeki Bunko Magazine, which is a seinen light novel magazine. -- deerstop. 15:41, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Not that it matters now, but there are no such thing as seinen novels. That demographic term is exclusively used with manga. Light novels are all targeted towards a young adult audience, though there have been a few recent labels targeted at a college age audience that are sometimes referred to as light novels. There's a lot of confusion over the definition of the term in Japan; it essentially is a light novel if the publisher decides to call it one. Doceirias (talk) 01:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Young-adult fiction is not written only for teens either, though mostly marketed to that age group. But I agree that the Light novel article should not be merged with this one. Flyer22 (talk) 00:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

YA Novel Word Count

"YA novels are often as short as 16000 words," did not make any sense to me. That's the length of a novelette, it's not even novella length. I'd expect that kind of word count from a chapter book, not a YA novel. My understanding of YA novels was that they ranged from 50K to 75K, sometimes longer. Even if there are YA novels that are 16,000 words long, it doesn't seem accurate to say it happens "often." I have not seen the reference in the footnotes myself. Is it referring to the same type of fiction as this article is? (Katrinakadabra (talk) 13:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC))

Genre

Target consumers and age rating are genres now?

So 2 complete diferent things, like a sex comedy and a dark science fiction could be renamed as genre: "Mature". ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.220.147.45 (talk) 14:35, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

List not all young adult fiction

Some of these books are debatable as YA lit...in fact many of them are subject to ongoing arguments online and in lit journals about whether they are YA. The author's intended audience should matter in its classification. You can't say just because teens like to read these books or are assigned them in school that they are teen books. Flowers for Algernon, for example, is constantly placed in the YA section at libraries because it is assigned in classes and is a favorite of teens, but it has an adult protagonist. Also, even if these books have young protagonists, many of them are books that adults feel they have to read with teens (hence assigning them in school) to help them ascertain the meaning or to deal with difficult sections. Shouldn't YA lit be books teen can read on their own and understand? I suggest at least hinting that there is some discussion about whether these books are YA or not. Also, the notable authors section seems random, just including whatever authors the writers remember. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.234.209 (talk) 02:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I would like to propose that Young Adult Literature (YA Lit) be merged into this article. This article appears to receive heavier traffic, and the other is an orphan. I feel that the two articles are similar enough and cover the same subject matter, and therefore there is no need for two articles. Anyone care to weigh in? 75.69.147.36 (talk) 03:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. -- 4.249.84.179 (talk) 05:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The subject matter is exactly the same, it makes no sense for there to be two articles. strdst_grl (call me Stardust) 14:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree. This is the more substantial article.--Plad2 (talk) 07:57, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree. They both go hand in hand and Young-adult fiction is an orphan. We'd be killing two birds with one stone. Lucasoutloud (talk) 04:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree that they should be one article, but that article should be "Young adult literature" (which currently redirects to this page), not "Young adult fiction", so as to include poetry, biography etc, even if fiction is the principal subject matter. -- Robina Fox (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Resolved. Young-adult literature is a REDIRECT here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by P64 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

11 to 14

The article mentions age ranges including 14 to 22, 12 to 18, and 10 to 20 (midpoints 16, 15, 15) and implies some consensus that YA does (perhaps for fifty years or so) target middle and older teenagers, at least. Here are some contrary references.

[Carter2000] = Best Books for Young Adults, second edition, Betty Carter with Sally Estes and Linda Waddle, YALSA, ALA, 2000. ISBN 0-838-93501-X

Some points from pages 1-13. (For more about the lists gleaned from this source see Talk:Young Adult Library Services Association#ALA Best Books for Young Adults.)

• the ALA annual list Best Books for Young Adults by policy considered only books marketed to adults until 1973; during the next twenty years young-adult market books came to be the majority listed (during the same timespan 1960s to 1990s, narrative nonfiction declined from more than 1/2(?) to less than 1/4(?) of the listed books)
• only in the late 1990s, the young-adult market changed to mean mainly books for older teens; in the past, "adult" market books were considered appropriate for older teens, "young adult" for younger teens; at the 1994 YALSA conference, a panel of five editors agreed that publishers considered YA to mean young adolescents. "Young adult now ends at 14." --editor Richard Jackson, (according to Carter) the publishing policy of the industry as a whole
• David Gale, Simon & Schuster, explained in 1999 a novelty from the beginning of the decade "We wanted to be honest about the book, and so on the flap we put the designation as age 14 and up, and excerpted part of the book on the back jacket so readers would know exactly what they were getting" --because such content would be a surprise under the YA label

"BOOK ENDS: Prize Problems", Richard R. Lingeman, The New York Times, April 10, 1977, page BR19.

• regarding National Book Awards, to be announced and presented during this NBA week: one complaint concerns finalists in the Children's Literature category: all young-adult books, nothing for "under-10s"

--P64 (talk) 16:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Outline

Up for review Your instructor has asked me to look at the outlines for changes that you plan to make to this article. It appears that you have yet to create an outline on this talk page, so it's not possible for me to provide feedback. Please bear in mind that I will be happy to help you, but I can't do that if you don't make any effort yourself. Pacing yourself is key to this assignment and since semester is mostly over, you really need to ensure that you're keeping up with project. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Why fiction?

Young-adult literature redirects here. We do not have young-adult books. (Contrast: children's fiction and children's books both redirect to children's literature.)

The lead implies that we have it backward in this respect. Although difficult to describe, I suspect that the young-adult category is more fundamental than fiction in the book publishing and library industries. --P64 (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Notable authors

Very recent edits improve existing listings. During the previous several weeks (May/June) we have these adds and drops.

• add Robert Muchamore
• add & revert Christi Goddard
• drop Maureen Johnson

Here is a tally of births by decade for the 56 purportedly notable authors (except Rae Bridgman, year of birth missing, whose earliest earliest publication date for this notable work is 2006).

Birth decades of notable authors

• 1 (one) born during the 1890s --subtotal, 1 born before 1900
• 1, 2, 2 born 1900s, 10s, 20s --subtotal, 6 born before 1930
• 8, 3, 12 born 1930s, 40s, 50s --subtotal, 29 born before 1960
• 12, 13, 1 born 1960s, 70s, 80s --total, 55

This report is now complete in that I have checked and corrected my two-day-old clerical work. -P64 2012-06-25/27

Thus merely one-half our notable authors were born before 1960; about one-third born before 1950. The only one with a 19th century birth date is C. S. Lewis (1898), the author of perhaps zero works of young-adult literature. Robert Heinlein, William Golding, and J. D. Salinger (born 1907, 1911, 1919) certainly do qualify. Of the four, only Heinlein barely started this work before WWII.

The list barely represents even their children's generation, who include most of the authors responsible for the golden age that we cite in the article. Quote: "The 1970s to the mid-1980s have been described as the golden age of young-adult fiction—when challenging novels began speaking directly to the interests of the identified adolescent market.[5]"

--P64 (talk) 00:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

If Harry Potter is YA literature, not to mention Narnia, then I believe most of Boarding schools in literature should be admitted --and some were notable! --P64 (talk) 01:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Delete section (10,788 bytes)

Another editor has deleted the entire section with no other change.

(cur | prev) 13:40, 8 September 2012‎ Nikkimaria (talk | contribs)‎ . . (39,428 bytes) (-10,788)‎ . . (rm) (undo)

I check all four-digit numbers, don't see many fives! P64 (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Juvenile vs YA

I added a mention of the word "Juvenile fiction". This term is mostly obsolete, but a lot of the YA fiction from the mid-century was published under this category name (most particularly the Scribner's juvenile line, I believe). There is a subtle difference between the old "juvenile" category and today's YA-- juveniles most notably did not deal with "adult" themes--and with some time it would be useful to discuss this, but in fact the categories today are so overlapping that the novels published as juvenile fifty years ago now fit seamlessly into the YA category today. Actually, the term isn't that obsolete, in that it's still being used at Random House and elsewhere

Geoffrey.landis 18:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

2012, six years later.

1. Many libraries have Juvenile classification. I wonder how recently any new library has adopted the class.

2. The Mid-Continent Public Library (Kansas City, U.S.) provides a "Juvenile Series and Sequels" database that uses both J and YA distinctly:

• Juvenile Easy [JE], up to school grade two (ages up to 8 years)
• Juvenile [J], school grades two to six (ages about 7 to 12 years)
• Young Adult [YA], school grades six and up (ages about 11 to 18 years)

For instance, Narnia is J; Harry Potter crosses from J to YA; His Dark Materials is YA. --P64 (talk) 01:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Young adult problem novel -- new section?

There is a discussion of the YA problem novel included in the (duplicate) articles Problem novel and Problem fiction, but this topic really belongs here. Perhaps, as a beginning, the appropriate paragraph in the Problem novel article could be copied to this article. Does this make sense? Rwood128 (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Middle Grade and Young Adult

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Children's literature#Middle Grade and Young Adult

--cross-reference by "postor" P64 (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

The first Young adult book ever written was The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton.

I removed reverted this addition because it seems arguable to me and is not cited. Thoughts? HullIntegrity (talk) 12:03, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Properly removed. It would need both tags and . When we do have sources to cover the scope of young-adult, either by description or by example, {{clarify}} is appropriate. The sense should be explained here, not left for readers to check the source. For example, "young adult" (perhaps abbreviated, capitalized, hyphenated) as a publisher's or a library's term. A publisher in book cover or jacket material? in description filed with US Library of Congress? in sales catalog description? in labelled section of a catalog?

--P64 (talk) 17:42, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, categories are by nature problematical, and I certainly am not heading into that realm over a minor addition. But I do think YA can be defined under new parameters from contemporary, reliable, authoritative sources other than the publishers. HullIntegrity (talk) 20:18, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Just started page

I just started on this page, and didn't have much time today. If anyone would like to help I'm more than willing to accept. I'd like to have a timeline of some of the more important influences from the beginning of the YA lit genre and some of the main writers who have come out of it, such as Robert Heinlein and Judy Blume. I'd also like to start a list of books, or at least authors with links to outside sources to where the books can be found or at least summaries.--Steeley42 20:55, 11 August 2004 (UTC)

I added several authors and titles to the list, some classsics and some newbies. Please comment and revise. Also added some publications & the M.A.Edwards award. KTM 15:04, 4 January 2005 (UTC)

Added genre fiction section, citing D T Herald, more authors, minor editing. KTM 18:54, 5 January 2005 (UTC)

I'll work on the content some, but should there really be this massive list? Shouldn't there be a list of historical turning point / extremely controversial authors? I feel like a comprehensive list should be split out, ala List of children's literature authors (or merged with that list, given the fuzzy borderline), but the utility of this page is limited if it contains a massive collection of authors. I'd like to see more of a timline (Annie on my Mind and I Hadn't Meant to Tell you This; Are you There, God?; Monster) -- books that might have changed the way we think about YA lit. Deborah-jl 18:24, 11 February 2005 (UTC)

Added BAA external link, and I recommend reviewing this [http //book.awardannals.com/genre/youngadult/topauthors/ list of honored authors] to see which YA authors are influencing this genre. KennyLucius 18:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think this article is excellent. I would be a good idea to separate the list on its own page. -Acjelen 20:13, 28 April 2005 (UTC)

YA Dystopian

This sub-genre: the Young Adult Dystopian Novel, deserves, given its remarkably steep ascendance in current popular culture, its own section and discreet history. We came here trying to trace the history and development of this genre in a discussion about the place The Giver holds in its development, and could not find much useful information in these YA articles. Nesdon (talk) 19:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

"Mid-Century" tag under "History"

I have made several changes to the "Mid-Century" tag under "History," primarily to address ambiguities, poor or misleading phrasing, and gaps in information. In the first paragraph, I changed "advent of modern publishing for the teen romance market" to "advent of modern young-adult publishing surrounding the teen romance market" because the original seemed to suggest that modern publishing as a whole rose up around the teen romance market and it needlessly separates "teen romance" from YA, even though teen romance falls under the category of YA. Other changes I made in this paragraph were to add "influential" between "two novels," since it seems off-base to imply that these were the only two novels that drew in adolescent readers and the original didn't make clear that they were especially important. I also added that the novels "were not initially marketed to adolescents," unlike later YA, as I thought it would be worthwhile to emphasize that neither the writers nor the publishers intended for these novels to be YA.

In the second paragraph, I put the publication date of The Outsiders in parenthesis as was done for the previous two novels mentioned. I also did more extensive rewording of the next several sentences to aid clarity and flow of information, and to avoid making broad definitive statements such as "it displayed a truer, darker side of adolescent life because it was written by a young adult." Instead, I included the more specific information that The Outsiders was written by Hinton during high school and published when she was only 17. I cited this information as well as information about Hinton's broader importance in YA history as author of one of the best-selling YA novels of all time and one of the founders of the genre.128.237.185.15 (talk) 04:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

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Page move

I've moved the page from Young-adult fiction to Young adult fiction because it seems to be the most common spelling variety and is used in the body more than the hyphenated version. Feel free to request a change back to the original if this seems unreasonable. Me, Myself & I (☮) (talk) 02:01, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Opening sentence

The cited source - here - defines "young adults" as aged 12-18. The information should not be changed, unless a different reliable source is cited. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:19, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Thoughts on Article

I found that everything seems to be in order and looks good. The page remains neutral, it has plenty of citations for all of the claims it makes, is well organized, coherent and doesn’t allow for any distractions. The article also provides an excellent history of young adult fiction and catalogues some of the most important young adult fiction works like Catcher in the Rye and Lord of the Flies. The article also claims that the 20th century is the pivotal point for young adult literature and includes the previously mentioned titles as the catalysts for the rise of young adult fiction in the mid-20th century. In this section, there is a bevy of sources that can back up this claim and evidence to support this claim, as seen with the first mainstream young adult novels in the 1950’s, to the 60s and 70s when young adult fiction became a true force in literary circles, to the 80s when authors began to cover controversial themes such as rape and suicide, and finally to today when young adult fiction has become a money-making force with titles such as Harry Potter and Twilight. If I were to add anything, it would to be that some sources would need to be improved, it even said so on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfunchion (talk • contribs) 14:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Overhaul of Page

Hi all, I just published the sections that I've been working on on the main wiki page. I am still taking a look at some of the sections (history, boundaries b/w) that I didn't look at previously to get them on the same level as the rest of the article. Kaylac8215 (talk) 20:09, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Harry Potter

Is there some kind of contest amongst editors to see how many times Harry Potter can be mentioned in this article? Seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.85.186.6 (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Potty, potty, pot, pot.... Coolabahapple (talk) 23:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Difference in Styles

The statement "differences in genre styles between YA fiction and adult fiction" is cited by a single source behind a paywall and lacks a page reference. Also, "adult fiction" is poorly defined as 'adult' fiction can also refer to 'erotica'. This needs a better source or should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.104.23 (talk) 00:45, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Pinging Kaylac8215 who added that content and ref in 2018, since they may still have access to it. They haven't edited in a year though. Schazjmd (talk) 00:52, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kaylac8215.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Misleading name for this genre

Young adult novels are primarily aimed at adolescents, so why is this type of novel bizarrely called young adult fiction? The article should state how this type of novel gained its misleading name. Why isn't it called adolescent fiction, teen fiction, high school fiction or coming-of-age fiction? I'm not suggesting the article's name be changed; I realise WP call it that because that's its common name - but why did it become called young adult fiction? Magazines aimed at adolescents aren't termed young adult magazines. Films aimed at an adolescent audience aren't called young adult films. No-one would describe their 15-year-old son/daughter/niece/nephew as a young adult - yet they'd likely buy them a novel that's described as young adult, knowing that it's designed for people their age. A teacher whose pupils are 15 wouldn't say that (s)he teaches young adults. Jim Michael (talk) 11:04, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I wonder the same. The Young adult page says the term "young adult" is often used to refer to adults in approximately the 20s and 30s age range. The Young adult fiction page says it is a category of fiction written for readers from 12 to 18 years of age. Betty (talk) 11:58, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

You may dislike it but it has been the name for at least 80 years. Zaslav (talk) 00:54, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Diversity

Hi all! I will be working on this wiki for a class project. I will be doing basic copyediting and reformatting, as well as adding a section talking about Diversity in YA lit. If you have any suggestions, feel free to leave them down below. Kaylac8215 (talk) 00:35, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Welcome Kaylac8215! Thank you for taking on this project. I frequently edit articles about writing craft, and I have noticed that young adult fiction does not seem to be very well defined. I would like to see this article contain substantial, consistent citations defining the genre and age group, preferably from trustworthy books and journal articles instead of web site URLs. Good luck with your endeavor! —Anita5192 (talk) 01:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Over the past few weeks, I have been going through the current article and the talk page to figure out how I want to restructure this article. Right now, the structure of the article is very poor. Nothing flows properly and it's full of random subsections. I want to work on making these flow a little bit better. Here are some of my thoughts so far:

• Themes section - long and its subsections do not add anything to the article. Problem novel feels out of place and there are no citations. "Situational archetypes in literature" doesn't make sense in the context of the article.
• Characteristics is good but needs citations
• "Boundaries b/w..." is this even relevant?
• "New Adult..." section is incorrect. Needs a proper definition and citations.
• Possible bias with multiple references to J.K. Rowling and Harry Potter?
• Adding a timeline?

Ideas for Diversity in YA Lit section:

• Should it be under "Themes" or in its own category? Any thoughts?
• The #WeNeedDiverseBooks movement with links back to We Need Diverse Books.
• Why is diversity necessary for YA lit.
• Other movements or festivals that are dedicated to diversity.

Kaylac8215 (talk) 21:57, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Here are some sources that I'm considering to use. I'm still compiling resources. Lack of Diversity:

• https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/08/characters-in-childrens-books-are-almost-always-white-and-its-a-big-problem/?utm_term=.f27d2d3a5a6a
• http://flavorwire.com/445869/why-is-childrens-literature-whitewashed
• http://www.yalsa.ala.org/thehub/2012/12/10/it-matters-if-youre-black-or-white-the-racism-of-ya-book-covers/
• http://www.yalsa.ala.org/thehub/2014/10/20/needs-title-diversity-in-ya-teen-blogger/
• https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/09/living/young-adult-books-diversity-identity/index.html

Rise of Diversity:

• http://www.theradicalnotion.com/diversity-young-adult-literature/
• https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280966581_Representations_in_Award-Winning_LGBTQ_Young_Adult_Literature_from_2000-2013
• https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/15/living/young-adult-fiction-evolution/index.html

Why Diversity is Important:

• https://doi.org/10.1080/02188791.2014.961898
• https://doi.org/10.1080/15210960.2016.1228335
• https://www.slj.com/2013/09/teens-ya/embracing-diversity-in-ya-lit/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaylac8215 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

There are 1400 words on diversity in Young Adult Fiction, and 2782 words on every other aspect of it. This could be a case of WP:UNDUE.

"Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."

LilySophie (talk) 16:11, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

That's a good point. I'll look into splitting out the diversity section into its own article. Dan Bloch (talk) 04:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

This is done. Dan Bloch (talk) 07:27, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

A wikipedia article is not an appropriate place to push your diversity agenda. The diversity section is nearly a half of the article. Please summarize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.85.172.6 (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

The topic is still important to cover, and it is well sourced. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:C069:3175:CA31:1A13 (talk) 12:49, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Diversity is just one component of many recent trends in Young Adult literature, and framing it as a completely separate subdivision at its length and stated significant is an obvious case of undue weight and personal agenda. Try to mix the information into a more appropriate part of the article where it's more relevant and proportionate. 51.37.57.129 (talk) 15:20, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

One short paragraph at the end of the article, about a highly important aspect and including a link to the full-length article about the topic, is hardly disproportionate. --bonadea contributions talk 15:29, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

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Criticism section

The Criticism section of this article has multiple issues. The only sources included are the works of one professor alongside miscellaneous opinion pieces, including one from questionable source Salon. None of the sources appear to indicate any consensus or provide any secondary coverage of these opinions. This section gives WP:UNDUE weight to individual ideas that don't meet notability standards beyond WP:FRINGE. As per WP:CRIT, this section appears to be counterproductive, and I propose its removal. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:28, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

All forms of literature generate criticism and analysis. I think that section actually needs expanding. Some sources that could be used to improve that section:[2][3][4] That's just a quick search on Google Books. Delving into academic journals will find even more. Schazjmd (talk) 00:45, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Who defines consensus? If a few conservatives complained about YA fiction why does that merit being placed into the criticism section as representative of consensus but not criticisms from the left? What meets notability standards? Give me the exact number of citations needed for something to be classified as representative of consensus and thus notable as proper criticism. There is substantial criticism of commercial capitalist pop culture coming from the left that doesn't just focus upon its being non-diverse. It is a commercial consumerist phenomenon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6E00:31EE:9A00:E5B9:A204:EE38:A239 (talk) 01:40, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

If literary genres are an exception to WP:CRIT (the guideline isn't entirely clear as to when they're appropriate), then we should definitely build it around common criticisms of the genre that are regularly covered by reliable sources. Some surface level research seems to suggest that the main criticisms of the genre are lack of diversity (which the article touches on and might be incorporated into the criticism section), conservative backlash to YA fiction, and the idea that YA books aren't serious literature. It looks like your sources would work really well for the first point, and a quick glance found me these as well: [5][6][7][8] Like I said when bringing up the issue, it seems that the content that's currently covered in the criticism section gives undue weight to arguments that don't make up a notable portion of the criticism, and they only provide primary sources that advocate for these arguments without any that discuss or analyze them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:CRIT is just an essay, not a guideline or policy.

The sources currently being used appear to be secondary: an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources, the primary sources being the YA genre books. I don't think the Slate article is properly summarized, as the editor who added it fixated on Frey's scheme, which is just a minor blip in the YA world.

Between us, we've collected a number of good sources, you're welcome to improve that section. And if a better section heading than "criticism" occurs to you, go for it. Schazjmd (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but shouldn't the section with the professors cited be removed as well? The anti-capitalist critique is certainly welcome, but isn't it just one professors view being cited? In my opinion, since there have been numerous users trying to provide critique from the angle of young adult fiction's relation to capitalism, sources that provide a consensus should be sought after. Well, if consensus is the line we are drawing as the standard for citing. One could argue that it isn't necessarily true that one must abide by that "rule" but I'd like to for the sake of fair attention to each view. There seems to be interest in it, so, if there is a future "project' for the article, perhaps we should look into it. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:C069:3175:CA31:1A13 (talk) 13:16, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

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Evaluation of Article

Hello! For class I was asked to evaluate and article and provide feedback. This is my first time doing an article eval (or anything wiki related) so any feedback is welcome! I decided to specifically focus on the content of the article so here were some things that I had noticed:

• I noticed a heavy emphasis on the "history" section, but not as much emphasis on the "themes" section. With the exception of coming-of-age, various other themes are listed without elaboration. It might be of interest to expand on these (even if briefly) to help balance this section out.
• An expansion on the 'content' portion of the "criticism" section might also be of use. Especially in terms of boundaries between YA and adult fiction - there have been books published and marketed as YA first, only to need to be republished and marketed later on as "New Adult" (NA) due to the content, or a series starts out as YA only to develop into an NA series later on (I believe A Court of Thorns and Roses is an example of this).
• The "criticism" section also discusses lack of diversity amongst YA novels - I think it could be beneficial to add examples of diverse YA novels in this section that have accurate representation as well as YA authors whose writing is harmful and should be brought to attention (such as J.K. Rowling who is already mentioned on this page numerous times).
• There is an image of Rick Riordan at a book signing for Percy Jackson and the Olympians which is interesting to me because that series is predominantly categorized as middle grade (though the lines between children's, YA, and adult are flexible! as the article discusses). DionnaTaylor (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I haven't worked on this page for a few years now so I don't remember a lot of details, but regarding your first two points it's worth remembering that Wikipedia doesn't have a plan. How much content is in each section is to a large extent a function of how interested some editor was in the section's topic, and how much information about the topic was readily available.

Good catch on the Rick Riordan image. That should go. Do you want to do the honors? Dan Bloch (talk) 04:52, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the image. Dan Bloch (talk) 20:39, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the feedback! That will be super helpful for me to keep in mind! And thanks for removing the image :) DionnaTaylor (talk) 22:17, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Harry Potter is harmful? J.K. Rowling is harmful? Those are not facts. They are the opinions of some people. Zaslav (talk) 00:56, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

I don't find this article highly reliable. It is misleading about the age of the YA genre, which dates back to the 1940's at least and was in libraries in the 1950's at latest despite the article's assertion that "booksellers and libraries began creating young adult sections" in the 1960's. The following parenthesis, "(although some had long existed)", is not enough to overcome the false impression that creation began in the 1960's. Hence I added a word to get "more booksellers and libraries began creating young adult sections". This may seem trivial but I've read in two recent newspaper articles that Judy Blue created YA fiction in 1960. (Yes, in both the New York Times and the Guardian.) Somehow, the history is getting muddied. Care is required. Zaslav (talk) 01:05, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

What you say may be true, but as with everything in Wikipedia, sources are required. I'm afraid I had to revert your changes. The article does say that YA didn't exist as a publishing category before 1967, which is consistent with bookstores/libraries not having YA sections even if there were some proto-YA books then. Dan Bloch (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I understand your reason and WP policy. However, the statement that "YA didn't exist as a publishing category before 1967" is contradicted by this article itself, where it cites "Scribner's young-adult line, beginning with Rocket Ship Galileo in 1947." Is it necessary to find an additional source beyond this clear statement of a "young-adult line"?

It is also a fact, even if you don't take my word (which is not a valid WP source, of course), that the NYPL had a flourishing YA section with not-"proto" YA books in the 1950s, long before 1967. I was there and I used it regularly. Consistency is not a guarantee of truth, as you know. The only legitimate objection to my edits is the lack of source; I agree with that objection. Zaslav (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The use of the phrase "Scribner's young-adult line" in the article is misleading, since they weren't called young adult at the time. They were called juveniles. Which gets to the point of my argument, which is that YA as a category was just coming into existence in the late 60s. But this is close enough and I'm not up for trying to find references today. Carry on. Dan Bloch (talk) 21:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I believe I saw the YA label on books in the NYPL 10 years before 1967. I think the choice of name is really not relevant to the content, so I will do a little editing based on this. Zaslav (talk) 22:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

A new problem: The article said: The Outsiders ", and was the first novel published specifically marketed for young adults"—I'm deleting this because it cannot be true. All Heinlein's juveniles in the 1950s must have been marketed to young adults because they were written for the YA/juvenile line, i.e., for teenage boys. I read the cited article "The Outsiders reinvented young adult fiction. Harry Potter made it inescapable." and it does not claim The Outsiders created the marketing genre. It only says "initially, The Outsiders was marketed to adults, and it flopped." Then, "It wasn’t until a few years later, when publishers saw that the vast majority of the book’s sales were coming from school libraries, that the book found its true market: teenagers." This is not at all about the YA genre. Zaslav (talk) 22:52, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Zaslav, this article does not say The Outsiders was the "first novel published specifically marketed for young adults". The article says The modern style of young-adult fiction originated during the 1960s, after the publication of S. E. Hinton's The Outsiders (1967).. It is supported by the Vox article which says, about The Outsiders, it would also help to create the publishing category of young adult fiction as we know it today and The New Yorker which says For Hinton, who almost single-handedly brought the Y.A. genre into being, this marks a kind of transgenerational full-circle return. Schazjmd (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Oops, my error - you'd already removed the phrase that you objected to. Schazjmd (talk) 23:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry my quotation marks confused you; I can see why. The New Yorker article is wrong; I know it from personal experience and this WP article demonstrates that by mentioning Scribner's publishing a series of young-adult novels by Heinlein. However, I'm not in a position to get outside sources; life is too short. Zaslav (talk) 06:01, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Judy Blume

I listened to a recent CBC radio discussion that suggested that Judy Blume was an important writer of adolescent fiction. This was in reference to a documentary about her <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neWsO1Rk_q0>. I am, therefore, surprised that she isn't even mentioned in this article. Rwood128 (talk) 12:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Rwood128, I've added a mention to the 1970s para. Schazjmd (talk) 14:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Children's literature

Hi User:Danbloch Your recent edits were useful – they made me think further, and realise that I should have taken more care..

However, I was amazed to find no mention of Philip Pullman here! – as I was earlier with Judy Blume.

YA fiction is a sub-category of Children's literature and that article has a much fuller discussion of YA authors than this does. When I discovered this I wondered if it might be a good idea to merge these two articles and so avoid duplication and the wasting of editors' time?

The opening sentence of the lede is problematic: "Young adult fiction (YA) is a category of fiction written for readers from 12 to 18 years of age. Isn't it in fact a "category" created by librarians and publishers rather than writers? Though some writers obviously write for this "market". Rwood128 (talk) 13:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

That librarians created the category is already mentioned in the lead. Schazjmd (talk) 14:57, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The Children's literature article does includes extensive mention of works of children's literature (though most of them are middle grade, not YA), but there is almost no content duplicated between the two articles. YA is its own field and deserves its own article.

The editors of the YA article thus far have chosen not to include lists of authors. This article only mentions authors or works which were significant to the direction of the genre. Judy Blume's work, for example, changed the topics which could be addressed in YA fiction, which is the context in which Schazjmd added her to the article. Philip Pullman is a skilled practitioner, but he didn't change the field.

Also note that while there's nothing wrong with adding lists of authors (though there's a likelihood that listing these works would degenerate into editors adding their favorite books), adding mentions of individual authors without a framework explaining why they're mentioned (e.g., at a minimum, "Significant works in the field include...", ideally with citations) just suggests that the authors and works mentioned are in some way more significant than all those not mentioned. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful comments, Dan Bloch. Significant, major figures, including Philip Pullman, Ursula le Guin, and Tolkien, should be discussed, as well as earlier figures, such as R. L. Stevenson.

Re Swallows and Amazons I read them when I was about 14 (1950s!). The WP article Swallows and Amazons has: "With some exceptions, the exact ages of the characters are not stated. In the first book they run from Roger at seven to about 12 to 14 (John and Nancy). All characters age as the series goes on; the final book occurs three to four years after the first". And The Wizard of Earthsea – the first of the series – "is regarded as a classic of children's literature and of fantasy, within which it is widely influential" (WP). I enjoyed the trilogy as an adult but "wizard" and "dragons rarely appear in adult fiction! --Rwood128 (talk) 19:10, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Re Swallows and Amazons, I note that the book has many illustrations, it's found in the children's room in libraries, it's referred to as a children's book, and Amazon says it's for ages 9-14. It's a little fuzzy, but all of these point to it being middle grade rather than YA. Re Earthsea, the trilogy written in the late 60s and early 70s was indeed for children (though they can be enjoyed by anyone). Le Guin went on to write three more books, one in 1990 and two in 2001, which were adult themed. Though I think they still wind up in children's rooms in libraries. It isn't easy being a librarian. But again, the trilogy is middle grade, not YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I realise it is hard being a librarian, especially in some parts of the world. Amazon says this about the second book of Le Guin's Earthsea series: "Teens, especially, will be inspired by the way Le Guin allows her characters to evolve and grow into their own powers". The book is also described as a fantasy classic and as read by many adults.

I find the idea of young adult fiction helping to provide a transition between child and adult literature a little odd (patronising?). I consumed 2 or 3 used adult SF paperback novels a week, in my early teens, and also read adult novels in my grandmother's bookcase, when I stayed with her. --Rwood128 (talk) 20:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Censorship

The recent trend in banning book for children parallels what happened in the first half of the twentieth century with Modernist novelists James Joyce, D. H. Lawrence, Henry Miller, and others.Then the emphasis was on keeping women in the dark, as far as was possible, especially with regard to anything sexual. The topic of YA fiction and censorship is important and needs to be expanded. Rwood128 (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

21st-century criticisms

The criticisms in the section 21st century seem irrelevant to me. They do not have anything specifically to do with young adult fiction, and they could be raised about any genre of literature. Are these appropriate for this article?—Anita5192 (talk) 17:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

There are some aspects of the diversity-related controversy that are unique to YA, but they aren't covered in this section. I'd be fine with removing the section. Dan Bloch (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

There has been a notable trend to more openly deal with the sexual, and other aspects, of teenage life, which has caused a demand for censorship from some. This, as I mentioned above, has an interesting parallel to what happened to adult literature in the early twentieth century. Since that this development significantly enhances the relevance of YA fiction, it is relevant. However, it would be useful to expand the discussion to include earlier controversies. Rwood128 (talk) 21:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Young adult fiction

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Young adult fiction's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Time":

• From Aladdin: Waxman, Olivia B. (May 23, 2019). "Was Aladdin Based on a Real Person? Here's Why Scholars Are Starting to Think So". Time. Retrieved 3 February 2021.
• From Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: Berman, Judy (15 October 2020). "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll". Time. Archived from the original on 14 May 2021. Retrieved 8 May 2021.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Literature

The section on the classroom states: "Students who read YA are more likely to appreciate literature and have stronger reading skills than others". So YA authors don't produce works of literature?!! Rwood128 (talk) 22:58, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Since the title of the source is "Young Adult Literature and the Common Core", it's safe to say that that's not what the authors intended. I don't have a problem with the existing wording, but obviously you can change it if you think it's too clumsy. Dan Bloch (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

The claim, "Students who read YA are more likely to appreciate literature and have stronger reading skills than others" does not imply that YA is not literature. Literature is a more general term than young adult literature.—Anita5192 (talk) 23:58, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Ambiguity: What is YA fiction?

This article needs to clarify what it means by young adult fiction. To this non-specialist, it seems to be (1) Fiction specifically written for contemporary teenagers that deals with the issues that they face growing up now. This includes works by Judy Blume and the Harry Potter series. (2) Any fiction where the subject matter is appropriate for teenage and whose protagonists are often teenagers. This would include so-called classic novels, like Alice in Wonderland, Tom Sawyer and The Catcher in the Rye. Classics appear also be defined in terms of length, ideas, sentence structure, vocabulary, and especiallt that they are set in a time and cuulture foreign to contemporary teenagers, as. for example, Hawthorne's The Scarlett Letter. It also needs to be noted in the article that terms teenager and young adult are fairly recent inventions. --Rwood128 (talk) 12:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the definition used in the article is (1), but the important thing is whichever definition is in the sources. The use of the terms teenager and young adult in English in general may or may not fit into the article. Dan Bloch (talk) 14:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

That is what I thought, though the article goes beyond this. The ambiguity of the term "young adult fiction" creates a problem.. I'm guessing that the YA category is particularly associated with the classroom setting and the struggle that teachers have with reluctant readers. And that it has further developed as a marketing tool by publishers. The article needs to make this explicit and acknowledge that it deals with at least two types of fiction that may appeal to adolescents.

The sentence "The modern style of young-adult fiction originated during the 1960s" should be expanded upon. I've glanced at the articles cited and they look most interesting. This sentences, however, infers an earlier different type of young adult fiction. --Rwood128 (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Just a reminder: Make sure you cite with a reliable source, anything you insert into the article.—Anita5192 (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Anita5192, this is rather vague – are you indicating that you find the sources I describe as looking "most interesting" unreliable? --Rwood128 (talk) 19:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Dan Bloch I now better understand your objection to including The Lords of the Ring in this article, but if that isn't YA, numerous other works included here also aren't, especially fantasy? Would you agree that YA fiction began in 1967 and that this is a distinctly new genre from earlier teenage literature, and adult literature that children can enjoy? --Rwood128 (talk) 21:20, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I've since noticed the discussion above under "Inaccuracies" that disputes the 1967 date! --Rwood128 (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought all along that YA arrived gradually, not that it suddenly appeared in 1967. That is, it was evolutionary and not something completely new (which the article reflects, mentioning the Little House books, Catcher in the Rye, the Heinlein juveniles, etc.). I'm still pretty sure that YA took off in the late 60s, which again I think the article reflects. I've been looking into this more since the "Inaccuracies" discussion and found a source with earlier history, which I'll add some time soon. And as always, it's what the sources say that matters most.

Re Tolkien, as I said in the earlier discussion the Tolkien Society source is legitimate by Wikipedia's standards, even though I personally think it skews YA history a little. Dan Bloch (talk) 23:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

This source suggests 1942:

Seventeenth Summer, released by Maureen Daly in 1942, is considered to be the first book written and published explicitly for teenagers, according to Cart, an author and the former president of the Young Adult Library Services Association. It was a novel largely for girls about first love. In its footsteps followed other romances, ands sport novels for boys.

The term “young adult” was coined by the Young Adult Library Services Association during the 1960s to represent the 12-18 age range. Young Adults Library Services Association. --Rwood128 (talk) 23:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

From Young adult romance literature: The success of Seventeenth Summer by Maureen Daly, published in 1942, is generally acknowledged as the impetus for romance novels specifically written for teenage girls, although Daly considered her novel to be written for adults. Young adult romance novels were referred to as junior novels and sometimes malt shop novels. Schazjmd (talk) 23:08, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Just found: This definition, from the Young Adult Library Services Association, needs to be considered:

The term “young adult literature” is inherently amorphous, for its constituent terms “young adult” and “literature” are dynamic, changing as culture and society — which provide their context — change. When the term first found common usage in the late 1960’s, it referred to realistic fiction that was set in the real (as opposed to imagined), contemporary world and addressed problems, issues, and life circumstances of interest to young readers aged approximately 12-18. Such titles were issued by the children’s book divisions of American publishers and were marketed to institutions – libraries and schools – that served such populations (Michael Cart from "The Value of Young Adult Literature for YALSA. Adopted by YALSA’s Board of Directors, January 2008).

Also, the article does not mention this American context, or consider YA in any language other than English. --Rwood128 (talk) 11:37, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

20th century

Rwood128, the blockquote from Cart splitting off from a sentence fragment is awkward and unnecessary. It could easily be summarized without needing to quote it directly. Schazjmd (talk) 22:38, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I've copyedited it so there's no longer a sentence fragment or a blockquote. It's only slightly awkward now. Though it would probably still benefit from being summarized. Dan Bloch (talk) 05:43, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. A direct quote is stronger, especially with regard to defining this topic. Now the fact that the definition has changed since the 1960s needs to be addressed.--Rwood128 (talk) 10:35, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

YA literature in Europe

• "French Teen & Young Adult Fiction", Library of Congress Research Guide
• German YA. Michael Schmidt, "Children's and Young Adult Books in German". Goethe Institute

Rwood128 (talk) 14:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC) --Rwood128 (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

A quick search of the Times Literary Supplement suggests that the term YA was not (or rarely) used in the UK, at least in the 1960s-80s, but rather "teeenage", "junior", adolescent". --Rwood128 (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's used today. See, e.g., these two Guardian columns from the article's citations.

References

Style

Dan Bloch, Perhaps I'm just being picky but I find this section, inadequate and poorly written. I thought my objections were clear enough. Anyhow, when I can find the time, I'll work on improving this section.

Can something be done about the narrow focus of this article on American YA literature? Rwood128 (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Use of direct quotes

In an edit today I removed the sentence However, "'young adult literature' is inherently amorphous", and "even those who study and teach it have not reached a consensus on a definition".. These quotes are pretty good, but there are issues with using them this way. Usage like this appears awkward and is non-encyclopaedic. Sources should almost be paraphrased, not quoted directly. Something like "Young adult literature is hard to define, even by those who study it and teach it" would be fine. But when the quotes appear like this, the claim is being made in Wikipedia's voice. In order to be acceptable the author would have to to be specified inline too, e.g., "Young adult literature is hard to define ("inherently amorphous", in the words of Michael Cart)."

Note that the {{cite}} templates have a handy quote= parameter which lets you insert quotes in a citation without having to go through gymnastics like the above.

See Wikipedia:Quotations for more discussion about using quotes. Dan Bloch (talk) 17:04, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, it's best to stick to brief quotations. --Rwood128 (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Tolkien

No mention of Tolkien in the article. This seems odd, even though The Lord of the Rings is categorised, sometimes, as adult fiction: "Of Tolkien's works, the YA library should have The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, and also Unfinished Tales - with further material from The Silmarillion". Rwood128 (talk) 18:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Tolkien is not YA nor was his work significant to YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 21:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Not even "The Hobbit?

The Hobbit was nominated for the Carnegie Medal and awarded a prize from the New York Herald Tribune for best juvenile fiction of the year (1938). More recently, the book has been recognized as "Most Important 20th-Century Novel (for Older Readers)" in the Children's Books of the Century poll in Books for Keeps. (from the Wikipedia article The Hobbit)

I did more research and found that HarperCollins markets The Lord of the Rings for ages 9 to adult. And of course it is a sequel to The Hobbit. See also the Boston Public Library's catalogue.

Sorry, I was in a hurry when I wrote this and I missed that citation did say that Tolkien was YA. I think this is still really questionable. The original source of this essay, the "St. James Guide", includes nearly 500 authors, using a very expansive criterion; apparently just that some YA age readers read these books. This is not the criteria that librarians and publishers use. The St. James Guide includes many adult authors (Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Elie Wiesel, Ayn Rand, Sylvia Plath, etc.) and some middle grade authors. But it is a reliable source by Wikipedia's definition, and it's too much trouble to find sources that contradict it, so carry on.

I would argue that the other sources are WP:SYNTHESIS, but you only need one. Also note, most of the recipients of the Carnegie Medal have been middle grade so this isn't an argument that a book is YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 22:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks again Dan Bloch. I'm continuing to learn while editing here. I'm not a librarian nor high school teacher, so my edits may reveal blindspots in my knowledge.--Rwood128 (talk) 22:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC) I will revise the discussion of The Lord of the Rings.--Rwood128 (talk) 22:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The original definition of YA as realistic has obviously been replaced: what would be one for 2023? --Rwood128 (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It would depend on how sources define it for 2023. Schazjmd (talk) 19:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I know that! – but was hoping that there was someone, with more professional expertise in this field than me, – who could bring forward a good definition for today. Doesn't YA fiction now includes fantasy?

I recently read the ''adult'' novel What Strange Paradise which has a teenage protagonist who helps rescues a nine year old Syrian refugee. It could easily have been marketed as YA. The novel won the 2021 Giller Prize. So, is there no real definition outside the market place? Rwood128 (talk) 20:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Dan Bloch, while I am not an expert in the world of YA, I'm still puzzled by your dismissal of Tolkien's writings. Do we need to add something like: "Though the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien appeal equally to young children and adults, because they do not deal with the lives of teenagers they are not young adult fiction".Rwood128 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

See also:

The Lord of the Rings has become one of the key books which teachers and librarians recommend to young adults to lead them towards adult literature; but it was not always so. The making of the book was a series of accidents, and, once published, young people insisted on reading it despite the hostility of literary critics and some educationalists, and the then difficulty of obtaining all three instalments in the right order.

This discusses the absence of Tolkien from high school curriculum, further indicating that this matter requires some discussion in the article. Rwood128 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

As I think I said before, I don't consider Tolkien YA because the definition I use is fiction written for 12-18-year-olds. But as I also said, since you've found a reliable source which says that Tolkien is YA (the Tolkien Society essay, or the book it came from), you're free to treat it as YA in this article. You don't need a long disclaimer, something like "Though not written for young adults..." is fine. Dan Bloch (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Genre fiction

Hi Dan Bloch, Re your recent deletion, can you explain why YA fiction doesn't fit this definition:

In the publishing industry the term "category fiction" is often used as a synonym for genre fiction, a term used in the book-trade for fictional works written with the intent of fitting into a specific literary genre, in order to appeal to readers and fans already familiar with that genre.

YA is described – and marketed – as category fiction. Wouldn't it have better to have edited, rather than delete, the section? Rwood128 (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

No. First, I'm pretty sure YA isn't considered genre fiction. It is a genre, but in a colloquial sense, not a technical publishing sense. As we say in the lead paragraph of the article, "The YA category includes most of the genres found in adult fiction". I would argue that, e.g., YA science fiction is genre fiction, but realistic YA isn't. Second, the section you added said nothing about YA. It was just a definition of genre fiction, apropos of nothing. But third, even if it were motivated, it would be wrong to copy a definition of genre fiction. This isn't the Wikipedia paradigm. You would say, e.g., "YA is an example of genre fiction, and if someone were curious they would click on the link. Any time you find yourself copy/pasting between Wikipedia articles (which I see you've done elsewhere in this one), it should be a red flag. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I note you are just "pretty sure" but not certain about this. And I focussed on the idea that YA was a category.

Aren't there genre fiction categories such as YA romance, YA sci/fi, YA fantasy, and more? Personally I dislike this kind of categorizing: there is just good, poor, and bad literature --Rwood128 (talk) 17:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm no longer sure what the issue is. If you don't want a detailed discussion of categories and I don't want a description of genre fiction, we should both be happy. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I was unclear. If fantasy is a category of genre fiction then isn't YA fantasy also? – and YA romance, sci/fi, etc.? That is the "genre fiction" section should be restored. --Rwood128 (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Still no. Of the three reasons I gave above, the most important is that we will be wasting the time of anyone who reads that paragraph, since they won't have learned anything about YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The use of the word genre in connection with YA can be confusing and the early definition from the 1960s does make it sound like a sub-genre. Some of what I said may have been a little confused. However, if "The main genres are crime, fantasy, romance, science fiction and horror—as well as perhaps Western, inspirational and historical fiction," are examples of genre fiction(from the lede of genre fiction), then why aren't YA examples of these genres also genre fiction? In 2016 I thought I knew the answer Talk:Genre fiction#Literature for children and young adults.--Rwood128 (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

They are genre fiction. I said that above. If you want to mention this in the article it's not out of the question, but it would need a source, and it's a tiny detail which doesn't add to readers' understanding of YA so I'd recommend against it. But the paragraph I deleted was just about genre fiction and not about YA at all. Dan Bloch (talk) 14:48, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

References

On Harry Potter

Block evasion by User:Dcasey98.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm taking to the talk page on this. I think people have difficulty placing this series because it evolves significantly over the course of the 7 books. I don't think there is any justification for counting Harry Potter as a "middle grade series" (a la Diary of a Wimpy Kid or Percy Jackson & the Olympians) given the lexile level of the books, their length, the age of the characters, the darker, more violent content, some of the conventions used (like the 7th book's epigraphs from Aeschylus and William Penn) and the very occasional use of language ("slut", "bastard", "bitch") that is not under any circumstance published in titles considered "Middle Grade". I acknowledge the somewhat subjective nature of this debate, but this makes it difficult to cite any one source to properly support either claim - many will say they are Young Adult, some will say Middle Grade, some say that the series progresses from Middle Grade to YA by about book 3 or 4, and the series is often casually referred to as a YA series. The Fantastic Beasts prequel stories to Harry Potter contain adult main characters, World War II imagery, and instances of infanticide. The wizarding world films are mostly PG-13 or 12 rated. The multimedia franchise overall, I'd argue, has complicated this by stretching the appeal and target audience of the franchise and its originating book series significantly. I don't think there is any meaningful argument to support the claim that Harry Potter is Middle Grade beyond "the first book is". I'm happy to revert the page back to where it was before my edits until a consensus is arrived at. Threefrgy (talk) 04:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC) "the very occasional use of language ("slut", "bastard", "bitch")" Your point being? I live close to a kindergarten, and regularly hear the kids using the equivalent Greek words, and others of that type. Dimadick (talk) 07:12, 23 September 2023 (UTC) I’m sure you can make facile excuses as to why any content should be allowable at middle grade just because Harry Potter has it, but publishers don’t publish books as middle grade with that language period. I made a number of other points, too. Threefrgy (talk) 18:51, 23 September 2023 (UTC)