Talk:William Penn

William Shenstone

There is a link here from William Shenstone which I am pretty sure refers to a different William Penn. I will delete the link unless somebody tells me I am wrong and it is the same Penn. Cutler 10:59, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

At the end of the article, the sentence reads (emphasis mine), Later, according to the story, Penn again met Fox, but this time without the coat. Penn then said, "I have taken thy furcoat; I wore it as long as I could.

This makes no sense to me: should that be coat? --Calton 23:36, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Quaker

Hello, if anyone is interested, I just started a Quaker WikiProject, which can be found at WP:WQ or Wikipedia:WikiProject Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). Zach 00:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quakers at Oxford

The student body (poor use of phrase) could not have contained Quakers in the 1660s as the Act of Uniformity restricted attendance to adherents of the Church of England. Quakers, who were deeply interested in education, therefore had to set up their own establishments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.86.121 (talk) 10:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Quaker age

I am not so sure if Penn became a Quaker at the age of 25 becaase according to The American Nation From Prentice Hall (c) in 2002 has that William Penn shocked his Friends and Family by joining the Quakers, one of the most despised...

Birthplace?

The article fails to state WHERE Penn was born.

Also, is there anything known about his library? Are parts of it still extant, and where? A recent auction offered some books bearing his exlibris, so obviously some must have been sold, or was it again that "different" William Penn who Cutler is talking about? Dunnhaupt 23:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

William Penn's father, Admiral Penn, was land grant deeded land in and around the village of Shanagarry, County Cork, Ireland; where he was born on the 14th October 1644 in "Shanagarry House". There are still Quaker families in the area to this day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.165.163.197 (talk) 20:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably my question has been answered elsewhere, but are Penn's dates of birth and death according to the Julian calendar that was in effect at the time? Is that the Wikipedia standard? --MaxHund (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I was able to answer my own question at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Calendars. However, I will leave it in case others have a similar query. --MaxHund (talk) 22:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Penn was born on October 14, 1644, at Tower Hill, London.

Information

There's a biography out about Benjamin Franklin called "The First American", and it has a lot of good information about William Penn and his descendants (not to mention information about Cotton Mather, Benjamin Franklin, and some of the Founding Fathers). If anyone's read it, they might want to help contribute to this article.

anti-atheism?

(complete freedom of religion for everybody who believed in God), ambiguous, please clarify if he was anti-atheism

===Vandalism-- Someone has carved a great chunk out of this article and another has added some material about his marriages and children than needs referencing. Have to get up early so can't do anything now! ---Vernon White 22:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Penn and Hawkhurst

Someone has inserted "Before moving to America, Penn owned ironworks in the Kent village of Hawkhurst." This information also being given on the Hawkhurst article. The editor seems to think Penn settled permanently in America. It doen't seem to me useful to include this unreferenced information in the main article on Penn. === Vernon White (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Site of Wlliam Penn's grave

Someone has added a link to http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=802, which has a photo showing a gravestone. Can this be an original gravestone or even the correct location at Jordans Burial Ground? Quakers were forbidden to erect gravestones until a change in the regulations in 1850 (Source: E. Isichei Victorian Quakers) === Vernon White (talk) 23:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I added the link as I found it. -- Michael David 00:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That statement strikes me as probably incorrect. I know little about Quakerism, but I do know that there is a famous Quaker burial ground in the British Virgin Islands containing a large number of graves with dates from 1730 to 1780 (from the Quaker settlement of that period) which can still be visited today. --Legis (talk - contributions) 17:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

"Christened"?

"The first died before being christened."

Why would Quaker children be christened? === Vernon White (talk) 23:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

William Penn

William Penn was a early quaker, a real estate entrepreneur, a philosopher, the founder of the Province of Pennsylvania; the English North American Colony,and the future Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

Needs more cleanup

Good article, but there are still some redundancies, like the bit about paying natives fairly. I reordered some parts for better flow. Should the little section about James I be removed? 68.46.22.38 01:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

More balanced view of Penn's legacy

The original article had

"His family retained ownership of the colony of Pennsylvania until the American Revolution."

Here's what I added:

"However, William's son and successor, Thomas Penn, fought to restrict religious freedom (particularly for Roman Catholics and later Quakers), weaken or eliminate the elected assembly's power, and run the colony instead through his appointed governors — he was a bitter opponent of Benjamin Franklin and Franklin's push for greater democracy in the years leading up to the revolution."

It's not fair to discuss the positive parts of his legacy without mentioning the negative parts as well. Instead of reverting, how about some discussion? From the current article, you'd think that PA was an earthly paradise from William's death until the revolution, rather than a colony becoming increasing less tolerant, less financially solvent, and less democratic under autocratic proprietors. David (talk) 21:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that Penn's successors were not as tolerant as he. I just think the information should be added to the Thomas Penn or History of Pennsylvania articles, with a source if possible. Coemgenus 21:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The Thomas Penn article goes into it in detail already — the reason for mentioning it here is that we need to consider both sides of the legacy, and to include at least a pointer letting people know that information exists. For example, the article currently calls William "one of the founding fathers of the United States" even though no such country existed until over a half century after his death. I think it's also fair, then, to mention in a sentence or two how the undemocratic proprietor system he passed on to his son and great-nephew allowed them to impose their intolerance on PA, and how that helped to hasten the revolution by aggravating people like Franklin. There's a lot more that we could mention — such as the fact that his son's governors put bounties on scalps from the Indian tribes that William had befriended — but people can go to Thomas's article for more detailed info. David (talk) 14:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Imporatance within Wikiproject Bristol

For the benifit of those wondering, I have changed the importance field of this project. As to why the article falls within the Wikiproject - a number of places there are named for this William Penn, and the Penn family is a notable Bristol family although some urban legends result from confusing him with his father.

NullofWest (talk) 18:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Need to supplement or replace the Fantel source

About 100 of the 140 references are to Hans Fantel's illustrated children's book, William Penn: Apostel of Dissent [1]. Is this really a reliable source? I'm afraid that heavy reliance on this source presents a saccharine, two-dimensional image of Penn. Taiwan prepares (talk) 18:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Fantel source is not a children's book

The Fantel source is not an illustrated children's book as claimed above. If you follow the link to the Amazon review site you will see that the "favorable review" is clearly a computer mis-match and has nothing to do with the Penn book. Scotwriter (talk) 02:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

William penn school.

William penn then found a school and called it after his name it is now running really well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.168.194 (talk) 08:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Family - John Penn

I believe that John Penn was born on February 29th of the year all of which is now called 1700. In those days, the year number changed on March 25th. Putting 1699, while true, is therefore misleading. The Juian Calendar was then in use in the Colonies, which is why a 29th February was available for his arrival. That seems interesting enough to be worth noting, if verified. 82.163.24.100 (talk) 15:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Philip Ford

Missing explanation of relationship with Philip Ford; how did Ford come to own Pennsylvania? Mulp (talk) 22:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

This is now explained in the Return to England section. --StanZegel (talk) 04:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

will

William Penn was a smart guy wasn't he? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.18.203 (talk) 16:00, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Missing reference

The notes contain several cites to "Miller and Pencak" which I can't find referenced anywhere in the article. The result is that some statements are not cited to a source in a verifiable manner. Is anyone expert enough to supply the missing reference? Indeed, the whole Notes section is in need of cleanup, as citing in the current fashion makes loss of references far more likely. --RexxS (talk) 05:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The reference was introduced with in August 2008.[2] I will restore it. There is now a bot that automatically fixes refs that are lost in this manner. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 23:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much - although I don't have much faith in the bot to restore other than named refs when the primary ref is deleted. In articles referenced like this one is, I still think we'd be better off using full citations in References and making use of {{harvnb}} to create the entries in Notes. I could do that if no-one objected? --RexxS (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Presentation of James II

In the 'Back to England' section the presentation of James II's religious policies is misleading. James II sought to establish complete (Christian) religious toleration, but was hindered by the Tory-Anglican majority Parliament in 1685, and then the Anglican clergy and conservative local office-holders during the rest of his reign - all of whom were against non-conformity. For reference to this see D. Smith, A history of the modern British Isles (1998) or T. Harris, Politics under the later Stuarts (1993) 131.111.222.12 (talk) 14:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Penn a champion of democracy?

It should say he was a champion for the Republic. Also see the argument below about his arrest. To say he was a champion of democracy is completely wrong.

This requires explaining because people are under the assumption that the USA has always been a democracy since the beginning of the US Constitution. That has never been true it was established as a Republic. Some where a long the way the use of Republic was switch for democracy and that is what people believe now. The government does appear to operate as a democracy now. But it did operate as a republic at least until around 1850.

To say he was a champion of democracy flies right in the face of facts to the contrary.

He was arrested for violating of the "Conventicle Act" This Act made the Church of England the only legal church in the colonies and the form of government was a democracy. He was a champion for a Republic form of government.

Democracy does not provide any protection for the people's personal liberty or freedom. It is a single vote system. There are no controls for the people to stop tyranny in a democracy. Penn's and four juror's personal liberty and freedom were under attack for opposing democracy. Penn for opposing the law and the jurors for not finding him guilty even after they were tortured.

Republic does provide protection for the people's personal liberty and freedom through the use of the Grand Jury and Jury as an independent equal fourth branch of government designed to protect the people from tyranny.

William Penn was quoted, "Those people who are not governed by GOD will be ruled by tyrants."

A tyrant can't take control of a people whose government continues to operate as a republic it is only when the government switches to a democracy can a tyrant take control. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.73.27 (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Quakers and ritual, clergy, and original sin

The following sentence needs a small but significant revision:

"There is no ritual and no professional clergy, and Quakers disavow the concept of original sin."

This is not true of all Quakers today. For information on the Guerneyite/evangelical wing of modern Quakerism, see the Quaker Information Center (http://www.quakerinfo.org/quakerism/branchestoday.html), Evangelical Friends International (http://www.evangelicalfriends.org/), or the Northwest Yearly Meeting of Friends (http://nwfriends.org/what-friends-believe/brief-history/).

The problem could be solved by changing the tense of the sentence ("There was no ritual and no professional clergy, and Quakers disavowed the concept of original sin.") However, I am not confident that all Quakers did disavow original sin at the time, so I am reluctant to edit the sentence myself.

-- Ron Mock, George Fox University, Newberg, OR

71.182.81.165 (talk) 08:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Hawkhurst

The Hawkhurst article states that Penn owned ironworks at Hawkhurst, yet this article makes no mention. Mjroots (talk) 10:43, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Sources for Penn owning ironworks - Information Britain, Virent and Living Places. None of the sources give a date. Mjroots (talk) 11:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Springett Penn (II) on family tree

I would like to have Springett Penn (II), grandson of William Penn by his first wife, added to the family tree, but the tree source is intimidating, so I would like someone with the skills needed to add him. --DThomsen8 (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

 Done. As per template talk page. Stalwart111 (talk) 04:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

william penn

William Penn owned Pennsylvania and is a cousin to Alexis McKenna Faith Ferguson daughter of Kelly Rene cooper-Ferguson and Shane Michael Ferguson sister to Ian Micheal Francis Ferguson, Alec Dillian Patric Ferguson, Noah Joshua Cole Ferguson, and Mariah McKenzie Grace Ferguson on the mothers side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.11.99 (talk) 01:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC) William penn was on child support And never paid his baby-mamas.!!! #BOAW! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.248.130 (talk) 22:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The Welcome

Interesting, Wikipedia has no references to the ship Welcome.... —Mike 16:41, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Organizational problems in article

There are some passages in the article which appear to have been placed incorrectly.

For example, in Penn in Germany (1671 - 1677), it says, "Pennsylvania has remained the heartland for various branches of Anabaptists: Old Order Mennonites, Ephrata Cloisters, Brethren, and Amish. Pennsylvania also became home for many Lutheran refugees from Catholic provinces (e.g., Salzburg), as well as for German Catholics who also had been discriminated against in their home country. In Philadelphia, Francis Daniel Pastorius negotiated the purchase of 15,000 acres (61 km²) from his friend William Penn, the proprietor of the colony, and laid out the settlement of Germantown." However, the period from 1671 to 1677 was before William Penn became the proprietor of the colony of Pennsylvania, as indicated elsewhere in the article.

In addition, the description of Philip Ford embezzling from Penn, then Ford's widow Bridget having Penn sent to debtors' prison, appears twice -- once under Back to England and once under Later years. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Still not fixed. I myself know too little of the topic to be qualified to fix it, but even as a naive reader I can see that the Penn in Germany (1671 - 1677) section is just screwy. For example, obviously, the discussion of Pastorius buying the Pennsylvania colony from Penn belongs AFTER discussion of Penn getting the charter, title, or whatever, for that colony. Acwilson9 (talk) 23:11, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Was Voltaire wrong about William Penn's 1683 treaty with the Lenape Indians?

There is a discussion here about William Penn's 1683 treaty with the Lenape Indians, and specifically whether Voltaire's famous quote ("...a treaty never written, never broken") from his 1764 Dictionnaire philosophique was incorrect. Could you please take a look at it? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Errors with children of Hannah Margaret Callowhill

173.29.223.78 (talk) 00:24, 15 February 2015 (UTC)Note: There is a definite error in the listing of children by William Penn and Hannah Margaret Callowhill. There is a Hannah Penn listed with a birth date of 1671 and death date of 1726. I believe these dates are actually the date of birth and death for Hannah Margaret Callowhill and not any progeny of William Penn and Hannah Callowill as this is already listed as her birth and death dates.

It is common when citing sources and doing research to find a spouse,in this specific case Hannah Margaret Callowhill, listed with her married name s that is what appears on census and death records after the marriage. Therefore, I feel this oversight should be corrected.

PA.

William Penn founded Pennsylvania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.244.80.102 (talk) 13:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Penn is sexy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.244.80.102 (talk) 13:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

71.199.172.206 (talk) 20:39, 28 April 2015 (UTC)hi

NPOV

Someone shared some concerns about this article on the help desk. They seem to think the tone of this article is overly favorable to William Penn and inaccurately describes his relationship with the Lenape tribe. Looking at this article, I can see how they might think that based on the lede paragraph. Therefore I'm placing a NPOV tag. Hopefully someone will modulate the tone of that paragraph. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 15:15, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Complete rewrite suggested

Given all of the issues mentioned above, many of which have not yet been resolved, I suggest that the article should be completely rewritten by one or more topic experts, of which I am NOT one. (I myself am a reader who came to this article in the hope of learning something about Penn's role in Quakerism. However, right now I personally find the article disappointing, because I canNOT presume the accuracy of ANY item in it.) Acwilson9 (talk) 23:19, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

Just do a text search for "minecraft" or "stinkerton".

Most Authentic Biographical Image?

I propose that the image found at the link below be substituted for the present image of William Penn. The below link conforms to common scholarship that this is the only image of Penn known to be made from life, making it a more authentic introduction to the man.

http://explorepahistory.com/displayimage.php?imgId=1-2-140

I am unfamiliar with how to make this kind of edit and am asking for help? Fundy Yeoman (talk) 22:49, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Age when Charles 1 executed

at the top it says 'the king was beheaded when Penn was three years old'

Penn was born in 1644. Charles was executed in 1649. Even I can work out it's not 3 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 34.103.49.72 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out this error. Since Penn was born on 24 October 1644 and Charles was executed on 30 January 1649 (both using the modern calendar—see below), he was in fact four years, three months and six days old at that point. I have corrected the text accordingly.

(I wonder if the error arose because of confusion as to which system of dates was used: Old Style and New Style dates. In the old style (OS) of dates, each year began on 25 March (the day of the Annunciation, i.e. 9 months before Christmas Day), so Charles's execution date in the OS would have been '30 January 1648' (i.e. in the tenth month of OS 1647). The new style of dating (i.e. each year beginning on 1 January) began on 1 January 1752.)Kitb (talk) 14:01, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Day of birth?

Respective of Old Style of course citing October 14th, New Style in accordance with the calculation provided in the article gives his birth as the 24th, but his memorial at the All-Hallows-by-the-Tower Church reads the 23rd - is the memorial incorrect or is it a time zone thing? Or something I have not the greatest of mind to think twice? Badgogetter (talk) 21:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)