Talk:Van Helsing (TV series)

Archiving citations and links

For those who are new at editing Wikipedia: archive the citations and links used in the article. Sometime in the future one or more URLs will no longer be available and the only way to retrieve them will be with archive copies. The digital library used most often by Wikipedians is Internet Archive @ https://archive.org/web/. However, when a webpage has robots that block IA access, or IA servers are down, archive.is @ http://archive.is/ is an excellent alternative. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 07:56, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

The Cast list...

We need to figure out what to do with the 'Cast' list for this show. AFAICT, only Kelly Overton and Trezzo Mahoro were credited for every episode of season #1; I think Vincent Gale and Christopher Heyerdahl were credited for 12 of 13 episodes. Everyone else was credited for less than that (I think Rukiya Bernard was credited for 10 or 11 episodes...). Additionally, some who were credited for a number of episodes (e.g. Laura Mennell, Aleks Paunovic(?), and Paul Johansson) are not listed. We need to figure out some kind of solution here... Ideas? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:05, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing to "figure out..." you just follow MOS:TVCAST. Starting with the first episode, you go by the listed main credits, adding people who get added to the main credits to the end of that list (no matter what order they are inserted into the main credits). It doesn't matter how many times they're listed in the main credits.

The cast listing should be organized according to the series original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list.

Anyone who isn't listed in the main credits would be recurring and should be in a section indicating that, if they are indeed notable enough to be included. —Joeyconnick (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I understand that. But it seems ridiculous to include people like Tim Guinee who was credited for all of two episodes (the pilot and episode #2) under "Main Cast". TVCAST is a good guideline, but it's just a guideline, and it doesn't necessarily make sense to follow it in every instance – this show is one of those cases where I'm not sure if makes sense to follow TVCAST exactly... Still I'm looking for (other) opinions. (P.S. On the 'Recurring' part, I'm not sure Aleks Paunovic was ever front-credited, but he was in most of the episodes and would definitely warrant including under "Recurring" cast if he was never front-credited...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I think any weirdness in casting is precisely why we have those guidelines, because it takes out any original research. It's not perfect, no—for instance, it means Kelly Hu is listed in the Main Cast for The 100 (TV series) even though she only appeared in the pilot but there are ways around that. The alternative is that people constantly fight over how to list people; there was recently conflict over at Westworld (TV series) where someone objected to how low down in the list a "big name" like Anthony Hopkins was placed... but happily people had MOS:TVCAST to point to to explain that it's not based on how important anyone thinks the actors are or how prominent they have been on the show. —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:21, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure. But the way Van Helsing handles crediting is very "non-standard" for a TV show – I've never seen any (or, at least very, very few) shows like Van Helsing where the opening cast list is "fluid", and varies every episode... Basically, it's looking like Overton is really the only "permanent" cast this show has! Very unusual. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:14, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

For better or worse, Wikipedia has policies and guidelines to maintain order and continuity. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Television §2.5 makes clear that: "The cast listing should be organized according to the series original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list." When it comes to opening cast credits, this series does not follow the SOP because Overton appears after the title screen (where normally she would appear before it). It may be that Van Helsing has only one Main cast member and everyone else is considered Recurring. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I tend to think that is the case, re: Overton, though the show basically doesn't separate her from the other cast in the show's crediting... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:03, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but Overton is the protagonist and appears in the credits of every episode before anyone else. However, this article is a magnet for guys who like to raise their leg and mark territory. I followed Wikipedia's policy and my edit was reversed. Good luck in trying to edit Van Helsing based on WP policies and guidelines. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Pyxis Solitary: I'm sorry... are you watching different episodes from everyone else? I just re-watched the credits for the two-part pilot and the credits make no separation between Overton and the rest of the people listed as main cast in the wikipedia article. Your edit was the one that didn't follow policy. There's nothing in the policy that specifies main cast have to come before the title card and the end credits of each episode specifically list "Additional Cast", which makes it clear that any cast listed before that are main cast.

Now if Overton were listed and then there was some separation or something clear like "Also starring" or "Guest starring" (which many series do include), then you would have a leg to stand on. But the show is obviously following the "we're only going to list cast members in the credits if they actually appear in the episode" format and Overton just happens to be in every episode. —Joeyconnick (talk) 04:09, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

"the credits make no separation between Overton and the rest of the people listed as main cast in the wikipedia article" It's important to comprehend another editor's comment before you respond to it. I specifically said in my comment above

"When it comes to opening cast credits, this series does not follow the SOP because Overton appears after the title screen (where normally she would appear before it). It may be that Van Helsing has only one Main cast member and everyone else is considered Recurring."

"Overton just happens to be in every episode." Overton is the star of the series. She is Van Helsing. She is Main cast. Wikipedia articles are rooted in a consistent format. Sometimes an actor/character only appears in some episodes of the first season and is killed off, or disappears from the series for whatever reason -- however, if that actor/character is listed in the opening credits of the pilot/first episode she or he is included in the television infobox, but not in the *Cast and characters* section as Main cast. Per TVMOS, the Van Helsing article needs to differentiate between the star of the series (i.e. Main cast) and everyone else. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 17:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I think this issue may be cleared up in season #2. So far, only Trezzo Mahoro has been credited in every episode like Overton. If Mahoro ends up not getting credited in some (or all?) season #2 episodes, then I think a good case can be made for listing Overton as "Main" and everyone else as "Recurring". But we can probably hold off on doing a separation like that until we see what happens when season #2 starts airing... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

It's also important to not ignore half of what another editor points out, i.e. my comments on how the show clearly has main cast listed in the opening and "Additional Cast" at the end of the episode. Please point me to where in WP:TVCAST it makes ANY distinction between the infobox list and the "Cast and characters" section. This is all it says: The cast listing should be organized according to the series original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. Articles should reflect the entire history of a series, and as such actors remain on the list even after their departure from the series. (my emphasis). It is OR to look at the credit lists in the episodes and decide that Overton somehow has a different status from everyone else who is listed identically. In fact it specifically says Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count)... (again, my emphasis). So if the producers wanted to indicate that Overton was the only main cast member, the others actors would be listed differently or specifically referred to as guest stars. They are not; they are listed in exactly the same way she is.

Overton is obviously the star of the series, the main character, what have you. That's why she's listed first in the credits. That does not mean she is the only member of the main cast. Being credited in every episode in a season is definitively NOT a requirement (as per the above) to be considered main cast: being listed in the credits is. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:53, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes. But, again, what Van Helsing is doing vis a vis credited is relatively "non-standard" for a television series. The only close current parallel I can think of is Poldark whose opening credits cast list also varies from episode to episode... But, like I said, I want to see what they do in season #2 before coming to any firm conclusions. Deferring to the letter of TVCAST is fine for now... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:39, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Poldark whose opening credits cast list also varies from episode to episode. And still, even with all its cast credits variations, the Poldark article editors followed WP's Main and Recurring cast policy. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 21:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Once again (because another editor reversed it), I have included the full name of the title character. TV series articles are built with information gathered from several sources: the episodes themselves, reliable published sources, and the official series websites (if two networks are responsible). In the episode, she repeats "I'm Vanessa Seward" several times starting at @ 4:29 and says "I'm Vanessa Van Helsing" @ 36:01. I also read the episode's transcript (see revision summary). Pyxis Solitary (talk) 13:15, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

And once again, that's not how it's done – we're supposed to list the character names in the 'Cast' section as credited on the show. I'm going to leave your change for now, as I don't have time to check the show's end credits. But if the show's end credits list Overton's character as simply "Vanessa" (as I expect they do), either myself or somebody else will surely (and correctly) change the listing back to just "Vanessa". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

"But if the show's end credits list Overton's character as simply "Vanessa" (as I expect they do)" — If you haven't watched the series you can copyedit its article, but should refrain from editing information about it.

I don't know what MOS you're using, but this is what Wikipedia MOSTV says about characters @ Cast and characters information:

Information about the cast and characters should be presented in one of two ways (note that per Wikipedia's Manual of Style on boldface, actors and roles should not be bolded):

• Cast list: In a section labeled "Cast" or "Cast and characters", we indicate the name of the cast member and his or her noteworthy role(s), followed by a brief description of the character.

Harrison Ford as Han Solo: The pilot of the Millennium Falcon

• Characters list: In a section labeled "Characters" or "List of characters", we indicate noteworthy characters, including the name of their portrayer, followed by a brief description of the character.

Han Solo (portrayed by Harrison Ford): The pilot of the Millennium Falcon

To avoid redundancy, use only one method for delivering this information. It may be more appropriate to use a character list for series where an actor portrays several characters.

Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed and even fewer will deserve an individual article. It may be appropriate to split up the cast listing by "Main characters" and "Recurring characters". If the series is long running, and has an overwhelming number of recurring guest stars, it may be appropriate to split those into a separate list of characters articles see below for style guidelines on "List of ..." pages).

The cast listing should be organized according to the series original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. Articles should reflect the entire history of a series, and as such actors remain on the list even after their departure from the series. Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits, guest stars will not necessarily be credited in the same order each episode they appear, so their place in the list should be based on the order of credits in the first episode that they appear. The cast listing should not contain an episode count, e.g. (# episodes), to indicate the number of episodes in which the actor/character appeared. If an actor misses an episode due to a real world occurrence, such as an injury that prevents them from appearing, this info can be noted in the character's description or "Production" section with a reliable source. New casting information for forthcoming recurring or guest characters should be added to the bottom of the list, with their position readjusted if necessary based the defined method above.

Try to avoid using the section as a repository for further "in-universe" information that really belongs in the plot summary; instead, focus on real world information on the characters and actors (this could include, but is not limited to, casting of the actor or how the character was created and developed over the course of the series). The key is to provide real world context to the character through production information, and without simply re-iterating IMDb. Because of this, it can sometimes be appropriate to bypass the use of a cast section altogether. If so, the relevant in-universe information can simply be presented in the plot section of the article, with the real world information in a "Casting" subsection under "Production". Of course, some television articles will lend themselves to one style better than others; so see what works best, and do not be afraid to discuss it on the article's talk page.

Guidelines for articles about characters are found @ Character article structure.

If the above-quoted WP guidelines are not enough, then to prevent edit warring the next step in this matter about names of characters provided in the article should be determined with an RfC for neutral consensus. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 07:08, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

"Now" has changed. Julius has been turned human by Vanessa in season 2 and the "high-ranking vampire authority he is now" language is obsolete. I've taken it to the talk page as per the commented request but I see no reason not to update his description. LE (talk) 08:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

There seems to be a problem with some editors following WP's Manual of Style for this article. I doubt that any consensus can be reached in this talk page. Therefore, I think the ongoing disagreements warrant a dispute resolution request. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 09:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Number of episodes in season #4

We have an issue here, with conflicting sources. The Hollywood Reporters says – here – that season #4 will consist the (usual) "13 episodes". However, Syfy – here – says season #4 will consist of "19 episodes". I can't tell if the latter is typo, or if Syfy (which, afterall, broadcasts the show), has the correct info. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I would imagine the 19 episodes(While nice) is a typo on the part of the writer. When you look at the ratings it doesn't make much sense why the show would get a supersized order when other shows on the network that are better rated like The Magicians are capped at 13 episodes. I think perhaps it may be best to just remove the episode count from the renewal statement and just say "In December 2018, Syfy renewed the series for a fourth season". Esuka (talk) 20:02, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I think it's fair to use THR figure of "13" as it's directly from that source, and it matches previous season orders. But this will bear watching – if later sources discussing season #4 actually confirm the "19" episode figure, then we'll want to change/update that... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

That's fine. If the Syfy source does end up being true, they may do a split season. I know some shows have done that for what ended up being their final season to reduce costs. Esuka (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Just to follow this up, it appears The Futon Critic are saying the season has 13 episodes which sounds about right. Esuka (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@IJBall and Esuka: Just to follow this up, season 4 did have 13 episodes. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:16, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposing to WP:SPLITOUT the list of episodes

Five seasons of 65 episodes is more than enough to justify a separate List of Episodes article, as per MOS:TVSPLIT. Does anybody object to splitting the episodes list to List of Van Helsing episodes?

If there are no objections, I'll split it out in the near future. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:50, 30 June 2021 (UTC)