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Talk:The Hangover (Suzanne Valadon)

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Issues and errata

[edit]
  • Should mention the nature of his childhood injury in more detail.
    • "He fractured his right femur at the age of 13, and his left at the age of 14. This made him unable to participate in the usual activities of men his age, so he took up an interest in art and illustrations. His legs never grew properly after that, producing a 4 feet 11 inches (1.50 m) adult "
  • More could be said about the hosting museums for the sketch and drawing
  • René Princeteau should be worked into the background
    • Done.
  • Move Montmartre addresses out of captions and inline
    • Done.
  • Should briefly mention his series of strokes and previous battles with alcohol-related hallucinations.
    • More could be said about the green fairy, as the painting appears to also have a green cast to it, so there is likely a relationship.
      • Just discovered that in addtion to alluding to the green fairy of absinthe, the use of this color may also be a deliberate homage to Japanese brothels depicted in art: "In the monograph Outamaro Goncourt created the image of Utamaro as "the painter of the maisons vertes". Maisons vertes is a straightforward translation of the Japanese word seiro,which means "green house," or brothel. Because Toulouse-Lautrec was a frequent visitor of the high-class Parisian establishments he became Utamaro’s counterpart and was known by the moniker "the Utamaro of Montmartre".
        • There is an additional, unexplored implication here, according to Ricard Bru, it seems likely that Lautrec received inspiration from his time in the brothels, as French brothels were reported to have shunga prints and books on the premises, according to Fiaux (1892). This likely dovetails with the rise of Japanese influence in French art post-1858, becoming prominent by 1872.
  • "It is also believed that the relationship between Lautrec and Valadon was over sometime around or after February"
    • This is also in dispute. The alternate interpretation, that their relationship continued in some form or another for a while after this, should also be represented.
  • Biographer Julia Frey's comments about how Lautrec viewed prostitutes (and other women) is at odds with others who cite Jane Avril as saying he viewed and treated them as equals. It is not clear which is true. I am considering adding both views. Frey, in fact, takes a decidedly negative view, describing his brothel works as a means for him to control, dominate, and seduce women. This is at odds with what Avril and others say.
  • "This bias against women in the artworld was not unique to Lautrec but was symptomatic of institutional classism and misogyny in French society as a whole." I temporarily removed this sentence for several reasons, mostly because I misplaced the source that directly supports it. I will add it back in at a later date with another citation, hopefully.
    • Looking closer at Frey, she vacillates in some parts, and considers both views.
  • Need to make the source to syphilis explicit. There’s an enormous amount of literature on this, so it’s easy to do.
  • Add exhibition appearance at the Armory Show (1913)
    • A huge oversight. In progress.
      • Done.
  • Add exhibition section.
    • Done.
  • Lautrec completed around 50 paintings featuring prostitution, none of which were exhibited or known until after he died
    • I think the claim is likely inaccurate, as the author is combining all works together as paintings, instead of paintings, drawings, lithographs, etc. For an example of this problem, see Elles (1896). This non-erotic series has 10+ lithographs of prostitutes, but many authors erroneously refer to them as "paintings". In addition to this inaccuracy, there's the problem of adding up the number of erotic works, which IIRC, were only published after Lautrec's death and are difficult to find online, but are available if you know where to look. Do the works in toto across all mediums comprise 50? Or is the number more? Needs answers.
  • There are five separate versions of The Hangover
    • Two pastel studies, one additional study, one drawing, and one painting.
      • Parke-Bernet Galleries (1946), Van Horne auction catalog.
        • I'm not convinced this is correct. The Parke-Bernet Gallery catalog makes the unusual claim that Young Woman at a Table (Poudre de riz, 1887) in the Van Gogh Museum, which is done very much in the style of Van Gogh, and which was purchased by Theo, was a study for The Hangover. To me, this makes no sense. I would go so far as to say that the opposite is true. The Hangover appears to be a study for Poudre de riz. Not sure how anyone could get this wrong.
          • I've crossed out five up above. Parke-Bernet Galleries must have got it wrong. Perhaps they meant to imply that this was part of the Young woman at a Table series, which based on the dates would be true, but beyond that, doesn't share all that much. I will keep looking into this.
            • Now I'm beginning to think the critics have mixed up the two paintings in their reviews. This is a huge problem.
              • Ok, having had some time to think about this, I think the simplest explanation is that Parke-Bernet, or the person who put the catalog together, confused the titles because both works are called Young Woman at a Table. That’s the only thing they have in common. The catalog writer likely wrote this entry without actually checking the painting.
                • This work is popularly known as Rice Powder.
                  • CR 324 is in fact, the study in question. Still working out the details.
                    • Confirmed. Rice Powder is CR 340 in Sugana (1969). The only possible conclusion is that Parke-Bernet is wrong. CR 340 was not a study for The Hangover.
  • Studies should be moved to development section
    • Done. Additional content to be added from Hewitt 2018, which explains exactly how it is related to this section.
  • Maurice Joyant may be the source for early information about the painting.
  • Expand use of Jacques Lassaigne
    • In progress. Note, Lassaigne's interpretation of the origin of the painting (Bruant's music, theme, title), is disputed by others, which should be placed side by side
  • Need to clarify living arrangements with Valadon. 7, rue Tourlaque: did they live in the same house? One source says yes, but the other say no, he lived across from her ("almost next door") at 27 rue Caulaincourt. The discrepancy appears to come from the fact that Rue Tourlaque and Rue Calaincourt intersect?
    • Current literature as of 2023 confirms that they lived together at 7, rue Tourlaque. Clarify: In the same building. She moved to 2, rue Cortot in 1890. I think the reason she didn't move earlier is because Lautrec moved out of the building in 1887. My understanding is that Lautrec kept his studio and living areas separate. Although I am still working out the details, it is implied that Lautrec had his studio on the top floor at 7, rue Tourlaque, and Valadon lived elsewhere in the building. It is assumed he painted The Hangover here, but I am still pursuing this.
  • Provenance
    • Joyant (1926) OCLC 23404597 cleary notes that the painting comes from the Dihau collection, so the question is why this doesn't show up elsewhere.
      • My mistake. This must be just for the drawing, not the painting, which is already sourced in the article. I will add this as a supplementary note.
  • Expand Van Gogh material
    • Use Sugana (1969)
    • Franka Blok, "Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, Portrait of Vincent van Gogh, 1887", catalogue entry in Contemporaries of Van Gogh 1: Works Collected by Theo and Vincent, Joost van der Hoeven (ed.), Amsterdam: Van Gogh Museum, 2024.
  • "an experience they shared in high spirits, a little private joke that came as an aftermath of one of Lautrec's less inhibited parties"
    • I probably need to explain this, as it assumes the reader knows what it refers to here. Lautrec was an amateur bartender of sorts who invented and popularized cocktails and was known to get his guests drunk on purpose.

GA Review

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Passed.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:The Hangover (Suzanne Valadon)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 20:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Crisco 1492 (talk · contribs) 18:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Image review

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  • Not a GA criterion, but ideally image sizes should not be set using pixels (MOS:IMGSIZE).
  • Yes, this is an issue in many (but not all) of the articles I've written. I have three choices: add the images per MOS best practices, which messes up the layout, bunches up and sandwiches the text (paradox, we are supposed to avoid that), and hangs down into irrelevant sections, or 2) use a variation of horizontal or vertical image placement at the bottom or to the side of each section, or 3) set image sizes using pixels, which creates a happy medium for both mobile and desktop viewing. I've vacillated between 2 and 3, for the most part. If you prefer, I can convert to 2, but I really like how 3 appears on a variety of platforms. I understand the MOS cautions against it, but this isn't the first time I've ignored it. Let me know what you truly think I should do, and I'll work towards that in mind. I've grown increasingly frustrated with the MOS over the years, as it's either out of date or contradictory.
  • Not a GA criterion, but WP:ALTTEXT will certainly help seeing-impaired readers.
  • Done.[9] Let me know if I should improve these captions further.

Prose review

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  • I just went ahead and removed it.[10] There's no sense that the painting even falls within that genre nor was Lautrec part of any school. I think this category was given to him much later because people are fond of categorizing, but it could be added back in. Also, if I left it in and linked to it, it would create a sea of blue.
  • artist Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, created from 1887 to 1889, just before he became successful as an artist - Repetition of artist
  • Removed in the above edit.[11]
  • Although she had been drawing all her life, by 1883, she had become an artist herself - Although doesn't seem to segue with "she became an artist". Generally experience precedes career
  • (Unrelated - Fogg Museum? Huh, this may be the first painting article I've reviewed where I've seen the work in person)
  • The first? Who keeps you locked in that cage? :-)
  • Did you do that on purpose? Now I will have to create an article on an artwork from ROM. Viriditas (talk)
  • Maria big with child - Everything else is title case. Why is this sentence case?
  • Fixed. The initial thinking was to duplicate musueum titles, and for some reason, this title was given lower case, but I think it should be adjusted anyway.
  • he would do so hunched over, which would invite derogatory comments about his appearance. - Perhaps "he did so hunched over, which invited derogatory comments about his appearance."?
  • 19 bis rue Pierre-Fontaine around 1884, then later back to 19 in 1887. - These seem like the same address. Not sure what you intend to say here.
  • 19 and 19 bis are two different addresses. In 19th century France, bis would indicate the second flat, an altogether different address, usually nearby. I think the analogy in the states is an address like 100 Main Street, with adjoining properties of 100A, 100B, etc. I will try and clear this up in a later edit.
  • Fixed. I was tempted to call it the "primary" unit, but I don't think that's quite right. A better term would refer to the type of unit (studio, loft, one bedroom), but I don't have that exact information right now. I did run into it in a source or two before, so if I find it again, I will add it.[14]
  • who began working as an art model after injuring herself as a circus trapeze artist at the age of 15. - Maybe "who had begun working as an art model after injuring herself as a circus trapeze artist at the age of 15."
  • where both Valadon and Lautrec mingled together - Is "together" needed here?
  • Removed. I am under contract with the Department of Redundancy Department to fulfill my quota of redundant redundancies.
  • He sunk - Wouldn't this be the V2 form (sank)

Have read to "Development" — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • with some art historians arguing that the image derives from parts of a song Bruant wrote about drinking. Other art historians, like Gale Murray and David Sweetman, disagree. - Per WP:WEIGHT, I'd recommend naming at least one of the historians who make the drinking song argument.
  • I need to fix this. Still working on it.
  • Huge rabbit hole here. I think I was a bit too lazy and didn't pursue this enough. Give me another day.
Mostly done. I think it's probably fine at this point, as I rewrote it, but there's a few loose ends here and there I might try to tie up. One loose end that stands out is that Harvard says outright on the page of the painting: "Aristide Bruant, a cabaret owner, singer, and songwriter who exhibited Toulouse-Lautrec’s work in his establishment, gave this painting its title." As far as I know, this is just a legend. Some art historians have tried to find evidence, but it's just hearsay. I think I tried to cover this issue with a bit of neutrality in the article. The best evidence in mind for Harvard's position is the fact that the ten permanent works exhibited at Bruant's club all have something to do with his songs, and I noted that by way of passing. I'll see if there's more I can do, but from what I can tell, there's good evidence that some of Lautrec's paintings were directly connected to Bruant's songs, but not this one. Viriditas (talk) 00:03, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • he continued to show interest in it as Lautrec worked on it - it ... it
  • Recommend linking crosshatching
  • Done.
  • modernism - Worth linking?
  • Done.
  • Romanticism - Also recommend linking
  • Done.
  • Dihau family of musicians, including Désiré Dihau, Henri Dihau, and Marie Dihau. - Not sure we need four Dihaus in one sentence.
  • Yeah, I realized that when I wrote it, but we don't have a link to the Dihau family. I'll figure something out. Ideally, a single page linking to all of them would be perfect.
  • Removed.
  • X-radiograph - recommend linking
  • Done.

Source review

[edit]
  • Not a GA criterion, but I strongly recommend reviewing for formatting before going to FA (if that's your plan). I see waylaid periods, missing spaces, inconsistent use of ISBN 10 and ISBN 13, and a few other formatting issues.
  • Spotcheck
  • 13: What page?
  • Partially done. But I will revisit. There's a summary on the flap copy that says ""Physically disabled since childhood, he was unable to participate in the typical pursuits of the aristocracy from which he came, preferring to find solace and inspiration in the brothels, theatres and cafes of Montmartre. A misfit among misfits..." I added numerous pages in the book in support of this idea, the aristocratic material is cited in the earlier pages, but in the later pages, particularly pp. 93-95, it says "Toulouse-Lautrec...became a frequent visitor in fashionable brothels...Commentators and friends have conjectured that the deformed artist could escape only here, through the commercial love of prostitutes, the disdain, revulsion, and cruelty other women habitually showed toward him." There's other sources I can revisit if you like. The point that is made in the sources is that he was an "outsider" as a disabled man in aristocratic society, and an outsider as a disabled man when it came to being accepted as a "normal" man in the eyes of women (before his clothes came off, of course, as the literature is full of rumors that his diminutive legs did not extend to his genitals, which were normal sized and presented a humorous contrast to those who expected otherwise). Of course, more to the point, is that the analogy is being made: Lautrec was drawn to prostitutes, and spent three years "documenting" their lifestyle within brothels, in part because they were both outsiders. There's other sources that talk more about this, particularly how Lautrec found acceptance within the brothels in the same way that outsiders from different walks of life seek out and find acceptance in various subcultures. Etc. The counterargument here, is that while various sources talk about how Lautrec didn't just slum, he went well beyond that and left his aristocratic life behind him as he pursued commercial work as an artist, something aristocrats would never do, but at the same time, he never lost his status as an aristocrat, and always had enough money coming from somewhere (even if he had to scrape by for weeks or months at a time before the next check came) to have the freedom to choose his work, so he was never truly working class, but aligned with the political left, the anarchists, and the artists of Montmartre. It's somewhat complex, admittedly, and hard to reduce to a single sentence. The emphasis, however, is that he was an outsider as a disabled man in aristocratic society, as much as prostitutes were outsiders in terms of their own social class as women, and that brought him to them, in many respects. Some feminist scholars, as I describe in the article, point out the power disparity, but there's also the stories from the prostitutes in the brothels who seemed to consider him family.
  • Alrighty. I tend to agree with that analysis, and I expect that it's a fair summary of the content. I had just been hoping for a page number or range to point me to it. That being said, WP:GA? doesn't require page numbers, so not entirely needed in the article. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Crisco 1492: That's very kind of you, but I think to be fair to both of us and the reader, I should make the sourcing explicit. I spent an hour wearing my thinking cap last night figuring out how to do this. I was successful and figured out a way to salvage the content, but I have yet to implement the fix. If you could hold off for a day or so, I would like to fix this further. Viriditas (talk) 21:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your consideration. One other reason I think I should spent time revisiting this, is because I discovered an alternate hypothesis that I had all but neglected. It turns out, Lautrec may have been drawn to prostitutes, in part, as a way to sever the relationship with his mother and become his own person, even if it cost him his life. Frey and others go into this a bit and I brushed it off before, never giving it any kind of consideration. While it may be slightly off-topic for this article and better suited for a footnote, I did want to point out that I myself found problems with the way I wrote this and I think it can be improved in a few different ways. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In progress. Viriditas (talk) 03:49, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Mostly done.[20] I split the material apart and separated by topic, making it more accurate and giving it additional attribution. I can (and probably will) do more, but I think it's good to go unless you find additional problems. Viriditas (talk) 07:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Done, as I added the mother bit.[21] That pretty much covers the gamut. Viriditas (talk) 08:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 16: Checks out
  • 26: Checks out
  • 27: Checks out

Conclusion

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

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(
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Improved to Good Article status by Viriditas (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 34 past nominations.

Viriditas (talk) 10:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - As far as I can tell, cites don't appear immediately after the relevant sentences for the van Gogh and Bruant elements of the hook, ie. "Toulouse-Lautrec's friendship with singer and nightclub owner Aristide Bruant is thought to have influenced his development of The Hangover." and "Van Gogh was present in Lautrec's studio when he began painting The Hangover, and he continued to show interest in its development."
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - "Modeled by" doesn't feel like quite the right phrasing; it might suggest Suzanne Valadon created a model. Maybe "based on" to keep the verb+preposition pattern, or simply "depicts"?
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Enjoyed reading this, thanks for your work! Good to go after the minor fixes above. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • The cited material appears farther down in the paragraph, with the material about Bruant and Valadon referring to Perruchot 1960, Murray 1991, and Frey 1994. Although I cited others, I neglected to note that the Van Gogh material comes from Jacques Lassaigne which is based on several things: Van Gogh's letter, which scholars used to triangulate the dates of his stay in Paris before February 1888, and Valadon's own personal account of Van Gogh showing up every Saturday in Lautrec's studio, where he originally saw the painting. It's pretty complex and I should have chosen something a bit simpler. Looking at the hook up above, it may be best if I add a hook that is slightly less convoluted. For what it's worth "modeled by" is common usage on the Model (art) page and in most art books from the 20th century (see Google Books, it is used everywhere). You're an acknowledged DYK expert, and if you had trouble following the sources, others will as well, so I think it's best if I pick a more practical hook to work with. I will do that shortly, but I will add the Lassaigne cite now. Viriditas (talk) 11:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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