Template:Did you know nominations/Christmas: A Biography
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Christmas: A Biography
- ... that Christmas: A Biography says that Christmas became secular and capitalist shortly after its inception in the fourth century? Source: as Flanders repeatedly shows: Yuletide has almost always been more rowdy and secular than reverent or religious. + Mythologizing Christmas by selling it, she argues ... has been a slowly building process that began almost as soon as Christmas became a widely practiced tradition
- ALT1: ... that according to Christmas: A Biography, Christmas became secular and capitalist shortly after its inception in the fourth century? Source: Same as above
- ALT2: ... that there is a biography on Christmas? Source: Book title, enough said
- ALT3: ... that one critic called Christmas: A Biography "body armor when the war on Christmas shrapnel sprays"? Source: Thankfully, there is Judith Flanders' Christmas: A Biography, which can serve as body armor when the "war on Christmas" shrapnel sprays.
- ALT4: ... that one critic recommended Christmas: A Biography for those whose "eagerness in Christmas starts in August"? Source: If your eagerness for Christmas starts in August, you need this book.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Meillet's principle & Template:Did you know nominations/Extraterritoriality of Princess Margriet's birth
- Comment: Not sure if WP:DYKFICTION applies to non-fiction, but considering there's been several non-fiction book hooks about what the book has, I don't think it does.
Moved to mainspace by Miraclepine (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 65 past nominations.
ミラP@Miraclepine 17:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC).
- Comment:I think there's a few problems here. ALT0 and ALT1 are red flags, and are not supported by the book. They are cultural and verbal anachronisms. Capitalism didn't arise until the 16th century, so Christmas couldn't have become capitalist in the fourth century. I looked at the book, and the author doesn't say this. It sounds like you are citing book critics who may have been writing tongue in cheek or perhaps were making their own arguments, I don't know. Also, there's similar problems in the article itself. For example, you write, "After debunking the myth of pagan winter solstice celebrations due to a lack of sufficient evidence, it reveals that the precursor of Christmas was the Mithraism winter solstice celebrations, which were later co-opted by Christians under the rule of Pope Julius I for the celebration of the nativity of Jesus on 25 December." I think you may have misread the passage in the book. The author doesn't debunk anything. The author notes that we only have evidence for pagan celebrations handed down to us by the Romans; the evidence of pagan winter solstice celebrations in Europe prior to the Romans has been lost to time. Also, the author doesn't say "Christmas has always been a secular, capitalist celebration", perhaps that's the argument of the book reviewers and critics. The author's central thesis is given several times: 1) while Christmas is known as a Christian holiday, it wasn't always known as a solemn, religious event in the past, and has tended to focus on celebration and entertainment more than religion. 2) Christmas is made up of many different traditions, and is not unique to any one nation or culture. Now, the author describes this "dancing and feasting" in the fourth century as a "secular pleasure", which is an odd use of the term given that it was an official Christian holiday at the time. The author's argument goes further, pointing to both the religious nature of Saturnalia, which began several days before December 25, the religious worship of the birth of Mithras on the winter solstice, and the secularity of a Roman New Year's festival during the New Year, when people spent more money than usual on festivities, particularly the wealthier class. Far from debunking the pagan origins, the author notes that Christmas merely absorbed the practices and traditions of the pagan festivals. By the middle ages "the focal point...for the majority was not the birth of Christ, but eating and drinking and entertainment". We don't really see capitalism mentioned at all here, so I think there's needs to be a bit of a rewrite. Yes, the author does point to secular practices quite a bit, so you may have a good argument for including that term. Now, assuming changes are made to the article based on the above, I could support some modification of either ALT0 or ALT1. Not a fan of ALT2, ALT3, or ALT4. If you do modify ALT0 or ALT1, I think there's support in the book to say that "Christmas became secular", but I honestly think you should try and go with a new hook that cites the author's thesis directly instead of pointing to secularism. That is to say, a hook that focuses on showing that even though Christmas is a Christian holiday, it has historically focused more on eating, drinking, and entertainment than religion. That kind of hook would remain entirely true to the central thesis of the author, while mentioning capitalism does not, as I don't see where she discusses capitalism in the book other than to point to the Scrooge trope of the Potter character in It's a Wonderful Life. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm missing something. Thinking about it further as I look at the book, there's far, far more interesting hooks here, that make the above all but worthless. You've got a good opportunity to share unusual information about the history of Christmas that most people aren't aware of, and I think you should go that route. The author focuses, for example, on unusual Christmas traditions in the middle ages that would make great hooks. Chapters 5 and 6 talk a lot about the transition into modern conceptions of Christmas that also has a wealth of hooks available. Chapter 7 shows the development of commercialism and how it radically changed the holiday. Viriditas (talk) 23:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: I've fixed the pagan myth part and capitalism anachronism.
- Also, the reviews tend to point out facts about the book before giving their opinion; would citing the author's thesis be directly from the book or the reviews' factual content? As for scourging the book for hooks, I believe how the book works is usually more hookier than random stuff the book has, and to be fair, I figured ALT2 would be hooky given the irony between the word biography (indicating it's about a person) and Christmas being a concept.
- I have added new hooks without the capitalism anachronism, as well as those that focus on the secularism and enjoyment:
- ALT5A: ... that Christmas: A Biography says that Christmas has been about celebration and enjoyment since its inception in the fourth century? Source: the earliest of days the focal point of Christmas for the majority was not the birth of Christ but the acts of eating, drinking and being merry + Christmas, of course, has been all things to all people since it was first recorded as a festival in the fourth century… a religious occasion, a family celebration, a time of eating and drinking. And yet the origins of the customs which characterise the festive season are wreathed in myth.
- ALT5B: ... that according to Christmas: A Biography, Christmas has been about celebration and enjoyment since its inception in the fourth century? Source: Same as ALT5A
- ALT6A: ... that Christmas: A Biography says that Christmas has been mostly secular since shortly after its inception in the fourth century? Source: First ref at ALT0
- ALT6B: ... that according to Christmas: A Biography, Christmas has been mostly secular since its inception in the fourth century? Source: First ref at ALT0
- ALT6C: ... that Christmas: A Biography says that despite its Christian origins, Christmas has been mostly secular since shortly after its inception in the fourth century? Source: First ref at ALT0 + Flanders begins with the background of Christmas festivities ... Early Christian leaders apparently recognized that because many converts were used to commemorating [the Mithraic winter solstice], it made sense to co-opt it, even though Christ was probably born sometime in spring or summer.
- BTW you should try to organize your long replies by paragraph and topic so they're easy to read. Let me know if I missed something. ミラP@Miraclepine 04:27, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- The problems are still in the article and the hooks don't necessarily reflect the book. The lead still says the book "suggests that the holiday's transition towards secular capitalism occurred shortly after its inception in the fourth century", the body still says the book "explores the belief that Christmas shifted from what Flanders calls 'a deeply solemn religious event' to one of secular capitalism" That's not in the book and the author doesn't discuss that and it's not her central thesis as I showed up above. You're also misreading what you call "a lack of what Flanders calls 'convincing evidence' of pagan winter solstice celebrations". The book doesn't say that at all, quite the opposite. The author says that the evidence of pagan celebrations in Europe has been lost. Tell you what, tell me which secondary sources discuss capitalism and the lack of convincing evidence for pagan celebrations, and we can resolve this. Otherwise, stick to what the book says and what good summaries and reviews agree upon, and you should be just fine. If you like, I can provide additional examples of how to fix the problem, but I assumed that I already did this in my original reply. Viriditas (talk) 08:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)