Talk:Tetragrammaton

Transliteration of silent final consonant

A recent series of edits removed, reinstated and removed again the final ה (He) from several places in the text. I believe that is important to retain all consonants in a tranliteration, but in any case I'm asking whether there are wikipedia guidelines for this. The question applies to other final consonants besides ה. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I doubt there's any Wiki guidelines on this, however doesn't matter if a letter is silent, it's transliterated (anyone want to go around removing English transliterations of French words which contain silent letters such as X in deux or s in words like nous and vous?). Believe this is a daft chain of edits and the person doing it needs banning from editing this page. Does it need to be locked down again? Stephen Walch (talk) 21:35, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll quote from the Transliteration page on wiki: "Transliteration is not primarily concerned with representing the sounds of the original but rather with representing the characters, ideally accurately and unambiguously." I'll go with that. Stephen Walch (talk) 21:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

yahweh is "universally" accepted??

extremely controversial thing to say and should be amended, in my opinion. two christian texts are cited as well as one translation of a german-jewish hebrew text from the 80s - not really consistent with how modern jews feel about the word yahweh. American jews particularly avoid even trying to say the name of God and especially dislike "yahweh" - on a personal note, using that terms tends to be an indicator to me that someone is not jewish. muslims also dont use yahweh, so saying its universal purposefully excludes 1/3 of the abrahamic religions. either needs a better source or should be amended to say "most christians" or some such. 2600:100D:A107:33A8:9296:7106:E026:ACD (talk) 23:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It's by far the most accepted hypothesis for the early pronunciation of YHWH among Biblical and Semitic linguistics scholars (certainly more so than "Jehovah", which originated from a late medieval or Renaissance mistaken misunderstanding). Of course, it being a valid technical linguistic reconstruction doesn't mean that it's part of the religious practices of any group (mostly it isn't, though it did appear in the Catholic Jerusalem Bible translation). AnonMoos (talk) 03:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I am in full agreement, the matter is not close to being settled by consensus. The basis for Yahweh as the proper vocalization rests purely on conjecture and ignores troves of actual evidence. Also, using the Arabic influence of a soft Waw, instead of the traditional hard Jewish hard Vav should also be addressed as an area of contention among scholars within this Wiki. Below is a list of Jewish and Christian sources that demonstrates actual evidence to pronounce YHVH as Yehovah. This is not an exhaustive list.

The Babylonian Talmud, a significant Jewish text, contains an intriguing passage in Kidushin 71a that is often overlooked by Western scholars. Dr. Garza discusses the practice of passing on the vocalization of the Tetragrammaton in his books Hebrew New Testament and YH?H The Name of God Hidden and Revealed.

Rabbinical Perspectives:

· Rabbi Bar Bar Chanah (3rd century CE) suggested that spiritual leaders shared this Name with their students once every seven years.

· Some of his contemporaries argued for a more frequent transmission, proposing twice in the same period.

This debate provides insight into the 3rd and 4th century rabbinic practices, indicating that God's Name was still spoken and taught during this era. However, many Western academics tend to overlook the oral traditions captured in sources like the Talmud. Dr. Garza provides a number of evidences for the continuation of this practice for more than a thousand years after these debates in the 3rd century.

Joseph Ibn Tzayach wrote the following in the 15th century:

"A certain sage has been uttering the Name according to its letters, and a certain Rabbi rebuked him for this. But [the sage] was stubborn in his actions"

This is evidence that the divine name was well known by the rabbis into the 15th century.

Rabbi Shabbethai Sofer (1608):

'And behold, when it is read as YH(VH), in the World to Come, then its vowels will be Shach”ak'.

The Hebrew acronym שח"ק (Shach"ak) represents the vowels used in the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton. חָשַׁ֥ק is the word for love or desire. One of the decoder words for the vowels YHVH handed down by the sages in Deuteronomy 10:15 (חָשַׁ֥ק יְהוָ֖ה) and Psalm 91:14 (כִּ֤י בִ֣י חָ֭שַׁק). The Zohar transformed this word into the acronym Shach"ak as an aide to the pronunciation of YHVH.

This acronym stands for:

ש (Shin) - שְׁוָא (Sheva)

ח (Chet) - חוֹלָם (Cholam)

ק (Kuf) - קָמַץ (Kamatz)

“There is also a secret here received by tradition in the vowels of ‘this is my name forever (לְעֹלָ֔ם; le’olam), for they are the vowels of the Great Name.” (New York, Jewish Theological Seminary, MS.1030, folio 46a)

The vowels of are sheva, cholam, and kamatz.

Halleluyah, halelu avdei Adonai, Halleluyah, Let the servants of Adonai praise the name of the Adonai: This passage illustrates the final of the five expressions, that God took us from darkness to light. The Israelites were slaves because they worshipped false gods just like the Egyptians. Therefore, we begin by saying, “Let the servants of Adonai praise the name of Adonai,” and to be “Servants of Adonai” emphasizing that we are no longer servants of the gods of Egypt. What does it mean to praise “the name of God?” There are three aspects to the name of God: how it is written, how it is pronounced and how it is vocalized. Each aspect of the four letter name of God teaches us something different about God. The written form of the name, yud-hay-vav-hay, is a reminder that God is present in the past, present and future. The root of this name is HYH, the verb to be: He was, He is, He will be. The name is pronounced Adonai which reminds us of God’s sovereignty and power, for God is the master of all. And its vocalization is based on the vowels with which the name of God is normally written: sh’va, cholom, kamatz. This is the same vocalization as he words mivorach, blessed, and l’olam, forever. These are two more qualities of God: God is full of blessing and God is eternal. Both of these words appear in the next verse of this psalm: “Blessed be the name of Adonai forever.”

This is also why the Borchu is phrased as it is: we say “Borchu et Adonai hamivorach,” and then we answer “Boruch Adonai hamivorach l’olam vo’ed.” The word baruch refers to the present, mivorach to the past, and l’olam va’ed to the future. This phrase then defines God’s written name – God is present in past, present, and future. This is also what King David, of blessed memory, meant in the opening words of Psalm 113. We say, “Praise the name of Adonai” – the written name of God in the present. “May the name of Adonai be blessed” – in the future since the vocalization of the name of God is the same as l’olam. And finally we say “From the rising of the sun until its setting the name of God is praised” - past tense. The rising of the sun is a reference to the creation of the world and the setting of the sun is a reference to the end of time. Therefore, we praise God with God’s very names in all its forms.

(Kos Eliyahu on Pesach Haggadah, Magid, First Half of Hallel 3, Rabbi Mark Greenspan, 2007-2017) LonnieCT (talk) 14:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

We already agree that Yahweh is a hypothetical reconstruction, but is by large the most probable reconstruction according to mainstream WP:RS. Perhaps we will never know, meanwhile we still have to call that god some name in order to speak about him. WP:OR considerations have no bearing upon the mainstream scholarly view.

Yehovah, on the other hand, is rejected as unlikely.

many Western academics tend to overlook—see WP:RGW. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

grammar unclear

The article currently says, "As with Jews, Shema (שמא, "the Name") remains the everyday usage of the name among Samaritans". Is this supposed to mean that the translation of "שמא" is "the name"? Pete unseth (talk) 00:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat simplified, in Aramaic a Terminal א (Aleph) serves as a definite article while in Hebrew an initial ה (He) serves as a definite article. Thus Jewish Palestinian Aramaic: שמא and Hebrew: הַשֵּׁם are both "The Name". -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Language in short description

Should the short description have the actual Tetragrammaton יהוה or the transliterations YHVH and YHWH? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Don't see why they all shouldn't be put in: {{Short description|YHWH / YHVH / יהוה, the four-letter name of God in the Hebrew Bible}}. Stephen Walch (talk) 23:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Should they be wrapped in templates, e.g., {{lang|he|יהוה}}. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

In all honesty I don't think it matters whether it is or not - it's just the short description. However it does appear that @GhostInTheMachine has a different take on what the Short Description should be.Stephen Walch (talk) 12:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that the @ sign does not generate a notification. A short description is part of the article content – WP:SDCONTENT. A short description should be short – WP:SDSHORT. A short description should be plain text – WP:SDFORMAT — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

@GhostInTheMachine: Then wouldn't {{Short description|The four-letter name of God in the Hebrew Bible}} be better? The reason for my original change was because it had a transliteration but not the actual text.

@Stephen Walch: To clarify, {{ping|GhostInTheMachine}} will notify the user and add the @ before the username. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Drop the leading pronoun per WP:SDFORMAT, then Four-letter name of God in the Hebrew Bible (43 characters) would be OK — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 15:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC)