Talk:State atheism

Revolutionary France Probably Shouldn't Be Here

Are there any actual laws or official acts from this time in which France declared itself atheist?

The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen contained: "For these reasons, the National Assembly doth recognize and declare, in the presence of the Supreme Being, and with the hope of his blessing and favour, the following sacredrights of men and of citizens".

The 1791 Constitution contains: "In consequence, the National Assembly recognizes and declares, in the presence and under the auspices of the Supreme Being, the following rights of man and citizen. "

The 1793 Constitution contains: "In consequence, it proclaims in the presence of the supreme being the following declaration of the rights of man and citizen."

The Decree of the National Convention of 18 Floreal (May 7th 1794) says "The French recognise the existence of the soul and of the Supreme Being".

The 1795 Constitution contains: "The French people proclaim in the presence of the Supreme Being the following declaration of the rights of man and citizen: "

While there certainly were some atheist intellectuals that operated 1789-1799, there is a huge difference between dechristianisation, anticlericalism, and actual atheism. Enlightened thinkers were often deists that believed in a God decoupled from Christianity. Robespierre actually imposed the Cult of the Supreme Being in 1794. The non-theistic Cult of Reason was, as I understand it, first imposed by Chaumette (an unusual irreligious extremist, in the view of his fellow revolutionaries) as Mayor of Paris, was accepted by various other communities outside the capital, but was never mandated at the State level, to the point that the Convention (=the national Parliament) never partecipated to the Feasts of Reason, although some members did.

87.6.144.100 (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that as you mentioned the Cult of Reason was an atheistic organization. But it seems less strong from what I have seen. The section has no content so it can probably be removed or moved to the antireligion pages.Ramos1990 (talk) 00:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

The cult of reason never was atheist. lease read about the Fr. Rev before any writings.1) There never existed any French State atheism. During the French Revolution, some rules of the Terror period celebrated publicly a Deist creed.

2) The link you are referring to about the French Revolution is not so reliable. e. g. When it reffers to the Concordat, there's a confusion between a Treaty between France and the papal state (the 1801 Concordat) and an act passed by Bonaparte First Consul of the French Republic, not yet Emperor Napoleon.

3) The best translation for the French concept of "laïcité" is no secularism (which is more about society) but total disestablishment. You can't have disestablishment in a state atheism situation. What is true is that, some French politicians, rather from the right, when talking about French Laïcité, are not in laïcité but rather in laiklik, the Turkish Kemalist version whis is not a disestablishment of Islam but a submission of one religion to the state. Definitly not the same.

Acteonmako, Agregation laureate and historian (historian with long texts and footnotes!) Acteonmakon2 (talk) 14:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

So actually we all agree that it should be removed (and it looks like it has been the case for years). So is there a counter-argument, or can I remove the section and any mentions of it? Eleventh1 (talk) 19:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I do. In the French version of this article not only was it recently included (partly with my help), but the Cult of Reason is also mentioned as "atheist and naturalist" in the description of it. In addition, the original English section included several sources.

Another thing I would like to add, and that could be considered a small footer, is that in the Spanish version they added a text that says: "During the revolution, a large-scale de-Christianization campaign was carried out by the revolutionary regime. The mayor of Paris confiscated several Catholic temples to convert them into "temples of Reason", a kind of atheistic pseudo-religion which worshiped the "Goddess Reason". Other localities began to do the same, until Maximilien Robespierre intervened and removed the cult of reason in favor of the deistic cult of the Supreme Being.", accompanied by various sources and redirects. ComradeHektor (talk) 17:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The Cult of Reason was never an official policy of any French government. The sources must support the claim being made, not something adjacent like dechristianisation (state atheism, by definition, must be a nationwide policy). This is something that is well established in all history books on the French Revolution (whether in English or French). Eleventh1 (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

"State atheism or atheist state is the incorporation of hard atheism or non-theism into political regimes..."

It doesn't say it has to be at the national level.

In Mexico the anti-religious politics was concentrated in states like Jalisco or Tabasco with the "red shirts", for example. Another case that we could consider a precedent for State atheism in China is that of warlord Bai Chongxi in Guangxi province, who implemented similar policies in the name of the Kuomintang.

The fact that there has been no constitutionally atheist state except Albania makes things less clear. ComradeHektor (talk) 19:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

No : by definition, the form of government of a state or a central element of a political regime is at the national level, and this is definitely even more the case for France, which is historically THE archetypal centralised government.

The examples you cite do not prove your point, because in Mexico the policy was indeed national, it was just applied differently in different parts of the country. And as for the other one, Bai Chongxi's policy is not state atheism, just religious persecution... and anyway, while I am no expert on him at all, it just looks like he applied his policy to the part of China he controlled as if it were an independent country. Which is quite different from what happened during the French Revolution, where there was still a national government that could have passed laws that would have allowed it to regulate religions as it wished throughout the territory of France... and it chose not to introduce any form of state atheism.

Of course, we could imagine a partially atheist state in a federal system, but that is not the case here, so it is not relevant. There was no atheist state during the French Revolution, so why pretend there was ? Eleventh1 (talk) 21:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

State atheism can be considered a counterpart to state religion, right? —Maybe even as a form of this—. Well, we have examples of confessional states with multiple religions in their territory, for example there is the case of Indonesia, where several religions are recognized such as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc. and where sharia or Islamic law only applies in certain territories. ComradeHektor (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I am in agreement with User:ComradeHektor. The Cult of Reason certainly deserves mention here, which was intertwined with the larger movement of anticlericalism in Revolutionary France. Anupam^Talk 22:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Anupam, Hi@ComradeHektor, I am not sure we are going to convince each other. I think that it would be better to look into sources to see what leading historians on the topic say about it... Eleventh1 (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Please dont remove basic historical knowledge. Thanks. Cult of Reason was state atheist Nashhinton (talk) 16:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not really basic historical knowledge, and you have undone an edit that was the conclusion (at the time before ComradeHektor intervened) of an old discussion here, and reflected the consensus of actual historians:

• For example, you can read the book 'Nouvelle histoire de la Révolution Française' by Jean-Clément Martin, one of the leading historians on the subject in France (especially the chapter on 'Nation, State and Religion', but not only). He explains the attempts of the revolutionaries to promote alternatives to traditional Catholicism, first with a national form of the Catholic religion, then with various deistic experiments, and finally with a separation of church and state (which would last until the Napoleonic Concordat)... but nowhere in his book is there any mention of state atheism.
• There is also this quote from Michael Bourdeaux, a specialist in the study of religion in communist countries and state atheism, who disagrees with your positions: "The French Revolution was strongly anti-clerical, but Christian worship continued"

This idea that the Cult of Reason is state atheism is a myth, long since debunked by historians.

You may disagree, but please cite your sources before reverting. I will await serious sources, which I am sure you will provide... Eleventh1 (talk) 18:08, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Basically, after months he could only find one source (and not even a very good one; the same also applies to Mexico or the Soviet Union, Christianity continued to be practiced as in fact source says). But returning, the article in French on the cult of reason affirms that it was an atheistic cult like communism —I add this last one— and cites numerous sources, as do the majority of articles that deal with the subject in different languages (like English's article). It seems that in fact there is a consensus on the matter. ComradeHektor (talk) 18:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Come on, I cited an entire book by THE leading historian on the subject. You cannot be serious... and the question is not that the Cult of Reason is atheistic, but that it was not an official policy during the French Revolution, and you have not cited any source... Eleventh1 (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

There are dozens of temples of reason throughout France, in different places (to name two: this one and this one). Therefore, that alone serves as evidence that it was a national policy.

But furthermore, what Clément says does not contradict the first, since in fact the cult of reason, in addition to being rationalist, was naturalist (which could be interpreted as pantheism), but it would also be atheist since it would comply with the definition: "Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities." ComradeHektor (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Also as I said, most sources agree on that. ComradeHektor (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Most sources, you say, but you can't even find one? And no, the fact that Temples of Reason existed does not mean that it was a national policy, any more than the fact that churches existed would prove that Christianity was the official religion of a country. Once again, you are confusing dechristianisation with state atheism. Eleventh1 (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Issues

Religious people have nearly always discriminated against people of other religions or people of non-religion, Christians, for example have said that anyone who doesn't believe in god, or doesn't believe in the "right" god are going to the fictitious place known as hell. History has proven that religious people have been far more discriminatory and violent. Proletarian Banner (talk) 22:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

The phrasing "Soviet Communism" is technically oxymoronic and should be Soviet socialism, but since that's a quote well... There is also, besides oxymoronic phrasing, the presence of a blatant hypocrisy as stated above, they call State Atheism a form of political repression but historically religious individuals have been far more repressive. Proletarian Banner (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

That seems irrelevant to state atheism, and doubly irrelevant to this talk page which is improvement of the coverage of state atheism. North8000 (talk) 22:43, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Map is inconsistent with article

Map shows that Cuba currently practices state atheism, while the article says they stopped that practice in 2019. 2603:8000:D341:6100:DD0B:AA23:4B64:4D62 (talk) 04:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

State atheism in Albania

The section about Albania says that the USSR was an atheist state, just like Albania under Hoxha, although this is not true. Hoxha declared Albania the first atheist state, not in the sense of pursuing a policy of state atheism (since the USSR and other states also pursued it), but in the sense of a complete ban on religion in the country. In this regard, I consider it an incorrect statement that the USSR was an atheist state on a par with Albania, since the USSR never completely banned religion. 176.213.208.32 (talk) 09:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The way state atheism was implemented in various countries differs, which is precisely why there are separate sections on each country. Article 37 of the Constitution of Albania stated that it "supports atheistic propaganda". The Soviets had their own policy of gosateizm. Anupam^Talk 22:18, 1 July 2024 (UTC)