Talk:Regulus (Turner)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by JuniperChill talk 11:42, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

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Regulus

• ... that a man stabbed the painting Regulus (pictured) because he disliked the "misty state of the picture"?

• Source: * Beaumont, Matthew (2020). "Reason Dazzled: The All-Seeing and the Unseeing in Turner's Regulus". British Art Studies (15). doi:10.17658/issn.2058-5462/issue-15/mbeaumont. ISSN 2058-5462.

• ALT1: ... that the painting Regulus (pictured) depicts a Roman general who was blinded by the sun? Source: * Beaumont, Matthew (2020). "Reason Dazzled: The All-Seeing and the Unseeing in Turner's Regulus". British Art Studies (15). doi:10.17658/issn.2058-5462/issue-15/mbeaumont. ISSN 2058-5462.
• ALT2: ... that J. M. W. Turner repainted Regulus (pictured) by "driving" white paint into the center of the canvas? Source: * Cust, Lionel (1895). "The Portraits of J. M. W. Turner, R.A." The Magazine of Art. Open Court Publishing Co. pp. 245–251.
• Reviewed:

Created by CitrusHemlock (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

CitrusHemlock 13:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC).

• Hi CitrusHemlock, review follows: article moved to mainspace on 30 October and far exceeds minimum length; it is well written and cited inline throughout to reliable (largely offline) sources; I didn't pick up on any issues with overly close paraphrasing; image is obviously magnificent and PD by virtue of age; no QPQ is required as nominator has only one prior DYK credit; ALT01 is stated in the article and checks out to source cited. I have struck ALT1 as the article states there is doubt that Regulus himself appears in the piece and ALT2 as the article only says that "Gilbert claims" the driving in of the paint was done. Happy to consider alternative hooks if you want to suggest any? - Dumelow (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Dumelow: Thanks for reviewing the nom so quickly! I was a bit sloppy with the phrasing of the ALTs, the first could probably be rephraised to "...that the painting Regulus is based on a Roman general who was blinded by the sun?" and the second "...that J. M. W. Turner reportedly repainted Regulus by "driving" white paint into the center of the canvas?" Regardless, the stabbing is the most compelling hook in my opinion, but any of them would work well. CitrusHemlock 17:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Lovely article. Very interesting.

★Trekker (talk) 00:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Regulus (Turner)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: CitrusHemlock (talk · contribs) 22:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 00:02, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Some images need tags modified. Image of painting and derivative zoom can be improved by uploading the NYT version.

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Feedback

Lead

• Regulus is an oil painting by English artist J. M. W. Turner, first painted in 1828 and overpainted during a varnishing day in 1837...The work was kept in Turner's gallery until 1837, when it was overpainted during a varnishing day at the British Institution.

• While it is important to avoid saying the same thing twice in any section, it's more important to avoid this in the lead section, where we want to use the limited space judiciously and efficiently. I would avoid saying that the painting was overpainted and varnished twice in the lead, preferably by removing the first instance in the first sentence and keeping the second. Is it important to the first sentence in the lead to mention that it was overpainted and varnished a decade later? If you think it is, then perhaps you can word that in a way to avoid saying the same thing twice.

• It depicts the story of the Roman consul Marcus Atilius Regulus, who was captured by Carthaginian forces and eventually executed after being blinded by the Sun. The scene is a landscape of either Rome or Carthage, with ships and buildings surrounding the ocean. The painting is dominated by the blinding white Sun in the centre.

• Two things: first, our bio on Regulus says this probably isn't true, it's just a heroic embellishment, so you may want to reword this here and elsewhere in that context; second, you don't need to repeat blinded by the Sun and blinding white Sun twice; try to come up with variations. The NYT coverage of the painting (linked in the last section below) refers to "the story of a Roman general blinded by sunlight", so that's one example of contextualizing the embellishment and varying the use of "Sun".

• Regulus was a controversial work, leading to it being stabbed in 1863 by a homeless man named Walter Stephenson.

• Having read the lead (and the body) several times, it's not entirely clear to me as a reader why the painting was controversial for its time. Also, should the lead perhaps mention that he was charged, tried, and found guilty? Just wondering, as the body goes into some detail about the trial.

Background

• Consider moving File:Benjamin West (1738-1820) - The Departure of Regulus - RCIN 405416 - Royal Collection.jpg and the {{quote box}} farther down, perhaps starting after the second paragraph ("While not common, Regulus served as a recognisable...) Right now, you've got it hanging over the first paragraph in the section, and that leaves it showing up just below the infobox image. I find that if you give the text and images more room to breathe, it makes the layout look better.
• During the war he was captured by Carthaginian forces, before being sent to Rome to negotiate a prisoner exchange. Upon arrival, he instructed the Romans to refuse any prisoner exchange, knowing that he would be executed upon returning to Carthage.

• Think in terms of economy of words. You repeat the "prisoner exchange" twice here. Mention it in the first sentence, but in the second instance try to rephrase it in a different way (or do it a different way, it doesn't matter): "During the war he was captured by Carthaginian forces, before being sent to Rome to negotiate a prisoner exchange. Upon arrival, he instructed the Romans to refuse any transfer of captives, knowing that he would be executed upon returning to Carthage." Just an example of how to mix it up a bit.

• Accounts by ancient historians tend to agree that Regulus was tortured by having his eyelids removed or sewn open, before being forced to stare at the Sun, leading to blindness. Various historians add details, including Gaius Sempronius Tuditanus, who stated that Regulus died of sleep deprivation, while others claimed that he was placed in a barrel of sharpened nails.

• As I said above in the lead section, this ignores what we know today. The Oxford Classical Dictionary (2012), cited in the bio of Regulus, says the story of his death by "ancient historians" is a "legend" and "invented". The entry goes on to explain why it's a myth and gives brief examples of how the ancient accounts are wrong. You obviously don't need to go into any of that, but you do need to reframe or add additional information here, as your current article portrays this as a real event. Viriditas (talk) 22:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• While not common, Regulus served as a recognisable subject for many painters during Turner's life. Notable examples include Salvator Rosa's Death of Regulus and Benjamin West's The Departure of Regulus.

• This is confusingly worded ("during Turner's life") as Turner lived from 1775–1851, and Rosa's Death of Regulus (c. 1650–1652) and West's The Departure of Regulus (1769) were made before he was born.

• These works, centred on the figure of Regulus, depict him as a brave, patriotic hero and promote ideas of aristocratic masculinity.

• This is an interesting coincidence. I was just writing about notions related to aristocratic masculinity just last week in the article The Hangover. I am curious if these ideas are similar or different than the ones I was writing about. Any chance you can note these in the body or in the footnote?

• he had learned certain elements through the Roman poet Horace. James Thompson, a poet who significantly influenced Turner's writing, alluded to Regulus in his poetry series The Seasons. However, the most descriptive source Turner likely had on Regulus was Oliver Goldsmith's Roman History

• I realize styles differ, but I like to know dates in regards to names and works. I understand this might not be a common practice in your neck of the words, as I've had other editors tell me they don't this in their country. Personally, I wanted to see Horace (65–8 BC), James Thompson (1700–1748), The Seasons (1730), and Roman History (1772). This might not be your style, and that's fine, but I tend to look for these things as a reader. Others may not.

History

 Doing...

• Turner began to paint Regulus during his 1828 visit to Rome. Turner began work on about nine other paintings...

• It sometimes helps to switch things up a bit. Instead of repeating "Turner...Turner" at the start of both sentences, you can add a bit of variation in different ways. Easiest way is to change the second instance to "He", but there are other ways of doing it.
• Why was Turner visiting Rome?

• Of these four, Regulus was likely the first to be completed, Turner quipping that it was made to stop the "gabbling" of his peers interested in his activities.

• I've read this sentence five times, and each time it made me slow down and stop at "Turner quipping". There must be a better way to write this that doesn't make the reader slow down and roll over a large speed bump.
• I would split it into two sentences and get rid of the "quipping" and rephrase it.

• Due to difficulties in sourcing frames for the paintings

• I've read this many times now, and still want to know why it was so difficult to find frames.

• the audience levied significant critiques at the paintings, focusing on defects in the paintings, and perceived resemblances to the works of Claude Lorrain.

• I wouldn't repeat paintings twice here. There's any number of ways to do it, but I'll give an example: "the audience levied significant critiques at the paintings, focusing on its perceived defects and resemblance to the works of Claude Lorrain". Just an example.
• Might want to make it clear to the reader that Lorrain is known as "Claude" for further uses in the article. You can do this any number of ways, but perhaps the easiest is to just write "...resemblances to the works of Claude Lorrain (known as 'Claude')" or something to that effect.

• While he hoped they would arrive early enough to be shown in the 1829 exhibition of the Royal Academy of Arts, they arrived three months after the Royal Academy opened

• Opinions may differ, but I wouldn't repeat Royal Academy twice here. I would write: "While he hoped they would arrive early enough to be shown in the 1829 exhibition of the Royal Academy of Arts, they arrived three months after it opened".

• he hoped to use larger paintings to grab the attention of an increased crowd, a task for which the relatively small Regulus was unsuited.

• This sentence is a bit confusing, since the painting is classifed as medium-sized. I think what you are trying to say is that it is small relative to his larger work, but the painting itself is not small. I think it might be possible to rephrase this simply by saying "a task for which the meidum-sized Regulus was unsuited" as it has the same meaning but eliminates the ambiguity.

• which he described in a letter to Director of the National Portrait Gallery George Scharf 45 years later, in 1882. The letter was then published by Scharf's successor Lionel Cust, who published it in the 1895 edition of The Magazine of Art.

• Interesting provenance of the letter, but wouldn't that kind of detail be best for a footnote, rather than the body? Also, since this is clearly analysis, shouldn't this be in the analysis section instead of history?

Reception and criticism

•  Pending

Analysis

 Doing...

• I was surprised that you didn't have a single section or subsection devoted to the influence of Claude Lorrain, instead choosing to disperse it into the larger body. The National Gallery published an entire exhibition book about the influence in 2012 (written by Ian Warrell I think?): Turner Inspired: In the Light of Claude. My only concern here is that by dispersing it in the body instead of focusing directly on the influence, it comes off as secondary or tertiary, rather than the lifelong, primary influence that it actually was. Nothing actionable at the moment but it might be something to consider thinking about.

Notes

•  Pending

References

•  Pending

Bibliography

•  Pending

Spot-checks

•  Pending

Images

• Regarding the main image of the painting, the NYT has a much better image on their site[1][2] than the one currently in use. It's not clear to me if they licensed it from Tate or if they took a photo of it themselves, but it's superior to the image you're currently using, more so if you are using a derivative for the close-up, which is pretty poor.

• I uploaded a new version of the painting if you want to use it: File:Regulus_Turner_1828.jpg As you can see, it's night and day when it comes to the detail.
• I also uploaded a new, but wider version of the cropped image, with the subject centered, if you want to use it: File:Turner - Regulus (Regulus descending stairs 2).jpg There's a lot more detail, as you can see, and the wider crop gives it a bit more context.

• File:Turner - Regulus, 1828, reworked 1837, N00519.jpg needs {{PD-US-expired}}
• File:Thomas fearnley turner fernisserer.jpg needs {{PD-US-expired}}
• Consider using WP:ALTTEXT to help the seeing-impaired navigate the article