Talk:Queer heterosexuality

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 January 2021 and 21 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TJScalzo. Peer reviewers: Afitz7, Textavour.

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"Queer Heterosexual" is a real term

There are 1,080,000 returns for Queer heterosexual, 1240 returns for the term "Queer Heterosexual" and 416 for "Queer heterosexuality".

Surely, its an emerging term that needs to be accomodated in Wikipedia.

If the content of my article is not held to be as per Wikipedia standards, then it can be accordingly changed by someone who can get a better description, but why delete the article itself.Masculinity (talk) 14:11, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, a "real" term appropriated by straight people and stolen from queer people. It's not any more real than white people donning native headdresses and drinking pabst and acting like they don't have white privilege.

I have edited the page to include other types of queer heterosexuals. It does need a lot more work, and it is not an area I specialize in. It needs more substance, and better sources for the three categories, including BDSM. I have had a quick look at GLQ, but there is little in there. Whittle & Stryker's Transgender Reader may have something. I'd suggest having a look at the main articles linked to from within the sections added to see if that gives leads to sources that can be legitimately used here as well. I'll pop back and have a look next week to see how it is looking, and if I have come across anything more in the meantime I will add it. Queer heterosexuals are a neglected subject within both queer theory and LGBT studies (as are bisexuals). I think this is the beginning of an important article. I have added the LGBT project tag to this talk page. Mish (talk) 12:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Removed LGBT tags as per discussion on LGBT template talk page. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

This article though, specifically discusses transgendered people, the "T" in "LGBT". LadyofShalott 21:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Restored them - was confused. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 21:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I can see how "Feminine heterosexual men" (no masculine heterosexual women, though?) and transexuals might bear some see-also relation to this subject, but I don't see how they are actually included under the subject of this article. Do any of the sources link them? Шизомби (talk) 23:19, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I put some bits in to hold the article open so the creator could take the opportunity to improve what was essentially a stub - but having not taken the opportunity to do this, I am happy for things to be removed - and if it is not added to, and if what is left does not warrant it being an article, then it should be put forward for deletion again. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 00:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The links were original research, and what was there didn't tie any of the groups to any sort of recognised "queer heterosexual" grouping. Remove that, and we're left with more or less a dicdef, just as at the start. Rebecca (talk) 04:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you removed Celia Katzinger ref which discusses queer hereosexuality - she has written a book on Intersex as well, does that mean we should not use here because she does that in the context of queer theory? The quote was critical of the concept of queer heterosexuality, from a radical feminist perspective. I'm not clear that we have to exclude authors who write on Queer theory - because that would entail losing much material that relates LGBT. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 09:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I have restructured the content to reflect the location within Queer theory, and removed the LGBT template from the article page. Realistically, this should now be renamed to 'queer heterosexuality', because it is unclear from the sources that queer heterosexual is used as an identity, but as a concept applied to some heterosexual practices. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 12:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

By who? At the moment, the sources for this article consist of a) a strange conference paper from some guy who did a PhD once, where he adopts the label to basically describe his being a male fag hag, b) a single opinion column from the Village Voice which takes an altogether different (and rather more vague) definition, and c) an apparent criticism of the concept, which neither explains specifically what she's referring to, or why exactly she's critical of it. I'm not sure really why the effort is being spent to save this one. It's a plain dud, and you've shot down foggier examples of WP:SYN elsewhere. Rebecca (talk) 12:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, I removed the line about "in queer theory, this known as queer heterosexuality", since it wasn't sourced to any of the three articles. I left the opening line, though it's also not borne out in the article it's sourced to, and is confusing. Rebecca (talk) 13:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have access to the whole article by Katzinger - but I haven't tried going through Athens yet. When I can find more, then I will update it. I agree that this should not be part of LGBT, I can see why it shouldn't be in. The idea that heterosexuals can be queer is one that seems problematic to radical feminists - and the concept is criticised. If it is criticised, then there has to be something that is being criticised, or else it was a straw man back over a decade ago, in which case it is a straw man that has managed to persist. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

...but there's no sources for this existing as any semblance of a unified concept. When one can only find three references, and they all contradict each other, perhaps it's time to hit the PROD button and be done with it. Rebecca (talk)

Okay, so we now at least have two coherent academic sources covering a concept somewhere along these lines. I'm still not sure if there's actually a unifiable topic here; the article still gives the impression that a few people over the years have discussed heterosexuals-as-queer in some form, but that this has never really been picked up as a focused topic. It still feels like something that's going to wind up being a case of WP:SYN. At the very least, it'd be nice to see the sources already used translated into layperson-speak - I basically have a degree in this stuff and still had to read it a couple times to work out what the heck she meant. Rebecca (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I have expanded the references, and updated the templates. Hopefully this is a bit clearer now. It will take time, as getting access to papers I don't have subscriptions to involves looking to see if they have been rebublished as chapters in books. Copyright and shifts in author's views also mean that there can be discrepancies between what is said in one paper, and a book chapter based on that. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 15:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's give it a few days and see what happens. I am still concerned that what Schlichter, Kitzinger and Wilkinson are talking about, what Taormino and Davidson are talking about, and what Smith is talking about are essentially three different things. The first one starts to look like actual notability; I am dubious about the second; and the third seems to be right fringe.

It might make quite a bit more sense if the Smith cite was dropped - it isn't really backing up anything important, and its notability is pretty dubious at best. I also wonder about the notability of the Taormino article - unless there's something not cited here, it seems to be just one of many opinion columns by in the paper this lady, and the weight assigned to it here as any sort of key document on the matter seems to be questionable. Rebecca (talk) 15:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, because the Smith conference paper was published as a chapter in Thomas' book, but it is not accessible online in that form, and some authors refer to the article, as they do the piece in Village Voice as well as Kitzinger as the spring-board which gives them entry into the discussion in terms of Queer theory. These three seem quite significant in relation of the emergence of this discussion within Queer Theory, and the coinage (as the two you highlight both use the term in the titles). I am not convinced that it works as an identity reference, which I suspect the creator of this article had in mind, so the identification of the article's subject to a particular individual is inappropriate, which is why I think that calling the article 'Queer heterosexuality' would be closer to what is discussed in Queer Theory. Had I not found a stream of writing on this in Queer Theory (which I had expected woul be there somewhere) I would have agreed, but however small it exists, and given the dominance of heterosexuality in our society is not going to be an insignificant topic in itself. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] are all references I have ignored, although they appear to take the concept either for granted or question its validity, and this is not exhaustive. Just because the reasons it was created may be questioned, that does not mean the article itself has no merit when reconstituted in the way it now has been. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

If the Village Voice article and/or the Smith paper are indeed actually some sort of catalyst for the discussion, it would be nice to see their citations in the article framed in this way. Scattered as over the place, it's hard to see how they're related, and makes it look like synthesis.

I agree that a move to Queer heterosexuality would be a good idea; that it purports to be an identity is one of the big problems here. The other front-and-centre problem is the lead sentence; stating that the subject is a heterosexual who engages in "queer practice" is going to make a lot of people go "wait, what?" or assume that it's meant to be a synonym of men who have sex with men. As a start, merging it with the "examples" section would make less random. Rebecca (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and moved it to Queer heterosexuality. The lead should be updated accordingly. LadyofShalott 18:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Pointless article/oxymoron

I think this article should be deleted. You can't be heterosexual or straight and have a queer sexuality. Queer sexuality is being about not attracted to the opposite sex/gender only and about not being heterosexual or straight.

With the exception of very a small number of academics who claim that they are heterosexual and queer I have never ever seen anyone else that is heterosexual/straight use the term or claim that they were queer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.74.229 (talk) 06:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello. I'm in a heterosexual and monogamous marriage. But I'm not heterosexual. Do you have a better label for me? My hair is longer than my wife's, and the running joke is that she'll kill it and I'll cook it. She is all woman, and I am quite male. "Queer" may be a time-limited word. Eventually it may be a silly adjective. Right now, however, it's a stanchion for those still growing into their identities. That's not a "neutral" point of view, I admit. It is instead a view towards a possible future. Jason Riedy (talk) 04:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

If you're not heterosexual just use whatever sexual orientation you are like if you are bisexual use that.71.162.251.243 (talk) 23:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Your prefered categories do not necessarily describe every possible permutation of human sexuality. And you don't get to police other people's sexual and gender identities. Which is exactly why this article is neither pointless nor oxymoronic. It also meets notability requirements. 24.146.204.47 (talk) 07:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

What if their identity requires denouncing you as a pervert? Do you get to police that? The article assumes there is nothing wrong with any of this. Maybe there isn't. But no other way of looking at it seems to be allowed, which is a structural POV. Let's at least put Sigmund Freud's interpetation of all this into the article (even though he does not call it that). Unless there is a consensus among those camping out here that Freud is not qualified to have an opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.28.140.201 (talk) 13:49, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

The only way a person can be "queer" is by experiencing same-gender attraction OR identifying/presenting as a different gender than the one they were assigned at birth. Simply dressing or behaving slightly outside of your assigned gender's roles does not make you queer. A straight, cisgender man with long hair is not queer, a straight, cisgender woman with hairy legs is not queer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biscky (talk • contribs) 16:06, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Nope a hetero(romantic) cis man can be still be Queer if he is asexual for example. Because he would still suffer under patriarchal structures. 46.183.103.17 (talk) 12:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Does this expand to orientation as well as gender expression?

The article mentions that it refers to a couple that subverts gender roles. But, does this term also apply to someone who despite being cisgender, has a preference for genderqueer of the opposite sex. For example, I am a cisgender male and I recently (as in three months ago or so) realized that I have a preference for genderqueers of female birth, both in romantic attraction to their personality and physixal/sexual attraction to their gender expression/androgyny. It could possibly be said that I'm heterosexual and heteroqueer romantic. MVillani1985 (talk) 06:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Focus on feminist theory?

So, I'm investigating the topic for personal reasons and I don't understand why the largest section is on feminist theory and criticism.

I don't think you can have an argument about a topic until you fully understand it. So, putting a critical review of the topic here is ineffective because there is insufficient explanation of what Queer Heterosexuality means psychologically and culturally.

I think there needs to be more explanation of the topic in its own right before it can be explored theoretically.

Also, the definition "heterosexuality that is queer" is a circular definition. It doesn't help a reader gain any new understanding of the term and instead refers the reader to other terms. It will lead one to cobble together a definition based on the meanings of queer and heterosexual instead of creating a definition for the term "queer heterosexuality."

I think this article should be removed entirely until it can be written more clearly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.24.5 (talk) 13:07, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Queer Hetero

Shouldn't there be some mention of males who identify as hetero but are attracted to butch/androgynous cisgender women? I would surmise that this meets the definition of what a queer heterosexual is, but I could be wrong (please enlighten me if you agree or disagree, and/or know more about the topic of queer heterosexuality). Also the opposite of this being a straight female attracted to feminine cisgender guys. DMSMD (talk) 00:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Appropriation

"Queer" Heterosexuality is criticized by many as appropriation of the struggles of queer people. Julia Serano discusses how appropriation can be harmful, offering the categories of erasure, exploitation, and denigration. http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2013/10/considering-trans-and-queer.html Heterosexual people who appropriate queer and genderqueer identities from queer people do one or multiple of these things by making queer spaces less safe and bringing heterosexism and heteronormativity into their spaces. Heterosexual appropriation of the word queer is usually a result of unchecked privilege in which heterosexuals believe that, since the rest of the world is already catered to them, they should be able to have queer spaces as well. It is also a way for cisgender heterosexuals to ignore their straight and cis privilege and to pretend they struggle in the same ways queer and trans people do. As a result, queer people have even fewer safe spaces. Thus, heterosexuality is not and will never be queer. Queer is a radical identity. Real heterosexual allies do not appropriate that identity for their own fetishism and gain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.96.210 (talk) 02:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Julia Serano doesn't actually say that heterosexual cis people who engage in gender-nonconforming behaviour appropriate the struggles of queer people. Quite the opposite! Locking people into a gender prison if they happen to be heterosexual and cisgender (neither of which is a choice) is evidently ridiculous, anti-feminist and hurts everyone. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:08, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

It's also arguable that gender-nonconforming people who identify as heterosexual and cisgender (some of them may eventually come out as trans/non-binary, but probably only a minority) share in the same oppression that LGBT people experience (homophobia/transphobia), especially because it is likely that others will assume that they are LGBT and treat them accordingly ... considering that gender-nonconformity is actually much more visible than orientation (and trans people tend to take care to not appear overly gender-nonconforming for exactly this reason) and (Julia Serano may in fact agree) it's gender-nonconformity which is the main aspect that society despises queer people for. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:28, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Confusing Sentence

Part of this article says: "Putting to one side the question of whether the idea of homosexual contagion is necessarily homophobic, Guy Davidson uses the article from the Village Voice as an example of how the idea of queer subversion of heterosexuality can have "politically positive implications", specifically in relation to Tristan Taormino's writing on celebration of the LGBT movement's queering of heterosexual sex practices the production of the "queer heterosexual".[6]" This sentence is baffling and grammatically incoherent. I came here as an open-minded straight guy looking for some information about gender issues and I have no idea what this is trying to say. It is a grammatical non sequitur and a nightmare to decipher. If it confuses me I'm sure I'm not the only one. Can someone please help out and clarify. Thank you. 71.107.122.211 (talk) 05:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

In addition, "the article from the Village Voice" doesn't tell us WHAT article. Please specify and/or cite. Paulmlieberman (talk) 16:52, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Girlfags and guydykes

I wonder if the "girlfag"/"guydyke" phenomenon, people who've realised they feel ("spiritually" or otherwise) like homosexual people of the opposite assigned binary gender and a strong attraction to the surrounding culture, also falls under the "queer heterosexuality" phenomenon. While it seems that many girlfags and guydykes identify as non-binary/genderqueer, some identify as cis. In their case, the underlying motivation appears to consist at least partly in the rejection of the gender roles and expressions traditionally associated with their own gender. Web searches using the terms girlfag guydyke "queer heterosexuality" and "male lesbian[s]" "queer heterosexuality" yield relevant hits, including potential RS. Maybe the girlfag/guydyke phenomenon could finally find a home on Wikipedia here, after having been rejected multiple times (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 55#Guydykes and Girlfags for discussion). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

As long as the matter is WP:Reliably sourced and is not unnecessarily given its own article, I don't have a problem with its inclusion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:05, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Queer

Recently I saw someone claim that "queer" and "straight" are not synonymous with "non-heterosexual" vs. "heterosexual" and do not actually refer to orientation, but to gender variance (in the broad sense) or its absence. If "queer" means basically "gender-nonconforming", i. e., not conforming to societal norms about gender roles and expressions, then "queer heterosexuality" is absolutely not an oxymoron.

And in fact – from what I know about pre-Stonewall gay culture – it's absolutely possible that "queer" originally indeed primarily referred to visible gender-nonconformity, and only secondarily to one's orientation (or non-normative sexuality), because both were thought to have been inseparable, possibly even by gay people themselves, and the boundaries between "gay", "gender-nonconforming" and "trans" were still extremely fuzzy.

Indeed, "queer" originally meant "weird, odd, different, whimsical", after all, and it makes sense that this would have been at first be used to refer to the visible nonconformity that was (and still is) so widespread among gay people (even if it was usually concealed outside "safe spaces" where gay people were among each other), and thought to be characteristic of them all their lives, not what they did clandestinely with each other.

(Apparently, "queer" was originally mainly applied to people assigned male at birth – gay and bisexual men as well as trans women – and to speakers of British English, it can still sound extremely negative, similar to "deviant" or the slangier "weirdo" or even "sicko", I suppose. Also compare "transvestite" ... and of course a dozen slurs like "pansy", "fairy", "fruitcake", "fag", etc., which really pretty much always refer to evident gender-nonconforming behaviour in a person perceived as male, not sexual orientation as such, which is only inferred from the behaviour, since sexual orientation is generally hidden; and moreover, it is implied that the person is a bottom, which is really the gender-nonconforming behaviour part of their sexual lives that queer men are most despised for. But I digress.)

There may still be some traces of this former differentiation or former meaning of "queer" vs. "straight" in slang – "straight-acting", in that case, literally means "acting gender-conforming".

I've tried to find out if there's anything to my suspicion, but no luck yet; I'm not even sure where to look; anyone else know more? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:16, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Modern Definition

I understand this article is old, but it's vastly out of date. Current use of the term "queer" includes more than just same sex attraction, but also gender identity, a-spectrum, etc. identities. This includes transgender, nonbinary, asexual/aromantic, intersex, and more individuals who identify still as heterosexual under the "queer heterosexual" umbrella. Should this article be updated to include this current definition? 108.4.1.63 (talk) 02:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it should be updated as this article doesn't talk about trans people and aspec people who like different genders MagicalEnbySarah (talk) 01:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Queer people such as trans people and ace/aro people can be heterosexual

It's odd that this isn't mentioned at all. Queer is a synonym for lgbt+.Trans and aspec people can be attracted to the "opposite" gender i.e. a trans man who is attracted to women/an asexual woman who is attracted to men. This means they are queer and heterosexual. MagicalEnbySarah (talk) 01:25, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this article doesn't seem to cover trans or aspec people who are straight, and seems instead to covee cishet allos who in some way define themselves as queer. I'd say that trans and aspec people likely would just identify as queer. If this is a point of confusion, we could put a distinguish tag at the top of the article. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the lead a bit to reflect this, and added an about-distinguish tag to further clarify the purpose of this article. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:43, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:HATNOTEs are for navigation, not material like this that would belong in the article body. I am sure that clarifying sources exist, at least regarding transgender people. But any definition details need to go on in the article text. Even now it notes that it refers to that which is controversially called queer. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:27, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Crossroads: - ah, my apologies. I saw the about-distinguish2 template and assumed it was for such content. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Are straight couples where each person is bi within this category?

There can be heterosexual couples where each member is bisexual, and these couples operate in a pretty queer way a lot of the time while still being straight couples. Is this in the category? MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 00:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what "operate in a pretty queer way" is supposed to mean, but this would only be included if reliable sources define it as such. Crossroads ^-talk- 02:12, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@Crossroads: I mean they will often take customs from gay or lesbian relationships they have been in in the past, may use terms like top and bottom for example. Looking through the article and what it cites it looks like it is mostly talking about "Queer heterosexual" as an identity rather than "heterosexual relatonships among queer people", and the sources I've found talking about the latter almost never use this term. Might be better to see if we have enough notability for Heterosexual relationships among LGBT people or something like thatMaitreyaVaruna (talk) 06:02, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@MaitreyaVaruna: - if both parties are bisexual, then by definition it isn't a heterosexual relationship, no matter what it may appear to be. And the article Heterosexual relationships among LGBT people might be interesting for things like the concept of beards, but I would strongly advise that bisexual couples in relationships with the opposite sex not be placed in this category, as to be frank, it erases the fact that they're bi.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 11:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ineffablebookkeeper: well it's heterosexual in the sense of opposite sexes, but not in the sense of heterosexual identity.

I think there is likely a generational split between zoomers and millennials in how these terms are interpreted. Because heterosexual is more an identity to millennials and more a porn category to Zoomers

As for that article I think the following elements would be included

Beards and mixed orientation marriages

Male female bisexual couples

Cis trans heterosexual couples, arguably the “gayest” of all of them based on public perception

St4t couples or a trans man and trans woman together MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

It's an heterosexual practice among queer individuals, I'd say yes. Also, straight people can be multisexual, such as penultisexual and differosexual. Tazuco (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I started the draft Draft:Heterosexual relationships among LGBT people so we might be able to make a new one from this. One group I think might be worth including in this article itself is trans chasers who often have a heterosexual identification despite outsiders normally considering them Queer. MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 02:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tazuco: look, if any content about two bisexual people of the opposite sex being in a relationship is "heterosexual" is going to be included, it's going to need some very good sources, because that's a very contentious claim. I'd advise searching up various bisexual organisations for their views on it.

@MaitreyaVaruna: very good point; the intersection between the "taboo" nature of trans people, a generally straight identity and how this intersects with society's view of people who chase trans people would be a good inclusion.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:05, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

My overall concern is that the scope of this article is unclear. Is it based on the term accused of cultural appropriation or the concept itself? MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 18:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)