Talk:Parental leave/Archives/2020

Anti-feminist

Should this article reflect that family leave is mainly oriented toward women and thus is sexist, homophobic, and anti-gender-fluid? Henry Hannon (talk) 18:24, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Maternity leave is a specific type of leave which deals with the biological aspects of pregnancy, childbirth, the postpartum period during which the mother must recover medically after birth, and breastfeeding. Other types of leave, which are separate from maternity leave, such as parental leave, family leave, carer leave, adoption leave etc are often gender-neutral (and are also often transferable -partly or wholly- between parents as they see fit). Laws differ by country obviously, but virtually every country in the world has specific protections related to pregnancy (late stages of pregnancy and a period after childbirth for medical recovery) and such leave is often considered legally a type of medical leave. 62.231.113.216 (talk) 02:30, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Table misleading?

The table at Parental leave#By country appears to be misleading, at least for NZ and Australia, and I wonder if they are the only countries. Both NZ and Australia do not have maternity leave per se. They have paid parental leave for the primary carer. This can be taken by whoever who meets the requirements to be considered a primary carer, which deals with situations like adoption or surrogacy but also cases where the primary carer is the partner. [1] [2] [3] In NZ, the paid leave can be shared by both parents. This is separate from the unpaid leave which can also be shared or partner leave (what we call paternity leave although it can be taken by the partner in a female-female relationship), although it could affect the partner leave allowance. While there are some specific parts which only apply to a pregnant mother e.g. taking the leave early due to being ordered to by a mid-wife or in cases where the baby dies, generally most of it is structured to so it doesn't have to be the mother even if it's rarely used that way. [4] [5] [6]. Yet the table doesn't seem to reflect this. And my impression is this isn't particularly unique to NZ and Australia, a number of countries are more generous,  [7] perhaps with a shared quota and part of the quota can only be used by "mothers" and another part by "fathers". There are some places in the table e.g. UK and Norway which seem to reflect this, but I wonder whether there are a number of cases besides NZ and Australia where such subtleties are missed. How do people think we should handle it? Nil Einne (talk) 14:47, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

If leave is given to the mother, than it's listed as "maternity leave" in the table, regardless of whether the mother can or cannot transfer it. That's why UK is listed with having 52 weeks maternity leave (with the explanation: "52[148] (2 weeks mandatory for the mother, up to 50 of the remainder can be transferred to the father as shared parental leave[186]"), and listed as having "13 each [weeks]" of parental leave. Maternity leave and parental leave are different types of leave, and paternity leave is also a different type of leave as listed in the table; here are more details about maternity leave in the UK [8], paternity leave in the UK [9] and parental leave in the UK [10]. As I said, these are 3 different types of leave. (I mentioned UK, because you made reference to it) 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4389 (talk) 06:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

In the European Union, maternity leave (minimum of continuous 14 weeks per Pregnant workers directive), paternity leave (minimum 10 days), and parental leave (minimum 4 months each parent, with 2 being nontransferable) are 3 different types of leave. Now it becomes difficult when different countries use different terminology, and this is explained in the article, but the table strives to do as best as possible. Maybe we should get rid of the tables altogether, because the info seems to be outdated for many countries anyway? 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4389 (talk) 06:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know much about Australian and NZ law, but perhaps more clarification is needed. What is meant legally by "primary caregiver"? The link provided (for Australia) says: "Eligible employees who are the primary carer of a newborn or newly adopted child get up to 18 weeks' PLP, which is paid at the National Minimum Wage." [11] while the second link says:[12]

"2.2.7 Primary carer is person other than birth mother for PLP purposes

Introduction

Another carer of the child may be able to claim PLP if they are the primary carer (1.1.P.230) of the child instead of the birth mother. In general, additional eligibility requirements apply to these primary carers.

Where an individual caring for a child is not the child's birth mother, they must meet rules relating to the circumstances in which they came to be caring for the child, in addition to the eligibility criteria which apply to a birth mother. This includes carers in adoption situations, the child's birth father caring for his child, the child's other parent in a same-sex situation or, as provided in the PPL Rules, any other person who is more distantly related, or is unrelated to the child.

The PPL Rules prescribe the exceptional circumstances (1.1.E.100) in which a person may be eligible for PLP as a primary claimant in exceptional circumstances (2.2.10.50), a secondary claimant (2.2.11), a secondary claimant in exceptional circumstances (2.2.11.20) or a tertiary claimant (2.2.12).

Exception: In an arrangement where the mother has chosen to pass primary care of the child, e.g. to her partner, and consents to the care arrangements, the person should not be entitled to PLP as a primary claimant but may receive PLP as a secondary claimant (2.2.11)."2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4389 (talk) 06:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, these tables do not deal with adoption, because in many (most?) countries adoption leave is regulated differently, under specific adoption laws. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4389 (talk) 06:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

After thinking about it, my solution is to completely remove the tables, given that these laws are so complex that it's virtually impossible for the tables to capture them correctly. What do you do where a country has 3 or 4 types of leave? And where terminology like "maternity leave", "paternity leave" or "parental leave" are not even used? And much of the information relies on old sources anyway. Several countries have their own sections which give details, and this works fine. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4389 (talk) 06:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I removed the two maps. It's not clear at all what they're referring to. What on earth does "equivalent position" mean? The same position? A similar one? One compatible with the professional training of the employee? Is the map meant to differentiate between countries where the requirements are absolute (ie where alternative punishments such as, say, suspension of payment, rather than dismissal, for a serious form of misconduct are in place) and those with various exceptions?

For example, the minimum standards in the European Union say this: [13]

Article 10

Prohibition of dismissal

In order to guarantee workers, within the meaning of Article 2, the exercise of their health and safety protection rights as recognized under this Article, it shall be provided that:

1. Member States shall take the necessary measures to prohibit the dismissal of workers, within the meaning of Article 2, during the period from the beginning of their pregnancy to the end of the maternity leave referred to in Article 8 (1), save in exceptional cases not connected with their condition which are permitted under national legislation and/or practice and, where applicable, provided that the competent authority has given its consent;

2. if a worker, within the meaning of Article 2, is dismissed during the period referred to in point 1, the employer must cite duly substantiated grounds for her dismissal in writing;

3. Member States shall take the necessary measures to protect workers, within the meaning of Article 2, from consequences of dismissal which is unlawful by virtue of point 1.

Article 11

Employment rights

In order to guarantee workers within the meaning of Article 2 the exercise of their health and safety protection rights as recognized in this Article, it shall be provided that:

1. in the cases referred to in Articles 5, 6 and 7, the employment rights relating to the employment contract, including the maintenance of a payment to, and/or entitlement to an adequate allowance for, workers within the meaning of Article 2, must be ensured in accordance with national legislation and/or national practice;

2. in the case referred to in Article 8, the following must be ensured:

(a) the rights connected with the employment contract of workers within the meaning of Article 2, other than those referred to in point (b) below;

(b) maintenance of a payment to, and/or entitlement to an adequate allowance for, workers within the meaning of Article 2;

3. the allowance referred to in point 2 (b) shall be deemed adequate if it guarantees income at least equivalent to that which the worker concerned would receive in the event of a break in her activities on grounds connected with her state of health, subject to any ceiling laid down under national legislation;

4. Member States may make entitlement to pay or the allowance referred to in points 1 and 2 (b) conditional upon the worker concerned fulfilling the conditions of eligibilty for such benefits laid down under national legislation.

These conditions may under no circumstances provide for periods of previous employment in excess of 12 months immediately prior to the presumed date of confinement.

As for the second map, it lists 5 countries (not clear again what criteria it uses). It does not list Sweden, though it seems clear that if full gender-neutrality was meant, than Sweden had to be listed (it has 240 days each parent [that is 480 days per family], with a quota of 90 days per parent. But Sweden is not listed. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4389 (talk) 08:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)