Talk:Northern bald ibis

Spanish references

The current ref 29 (El País) could cover the next two sentences as well. Refs 30 and 31, both called Proyecto Ibis Eremita, have no information that you mention except the organizations collaborating on the project. I'm going to make this information a little more precise. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

egg size

I may have screwed up your references by adding the sentences from the British Museum catalogue. Apologies if so. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 01:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

thanks Jerry, no problem with the ref, you had the formatting for the citation, so it only took seconds to bring it into line with the other books.

Sorry to be unclear. I'm not sure the footnotes are in the right places any more. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 20:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Pre-GA notes

This one is looking pretty good for GA..I will nitpick some stuff below: Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Two 'fully's in para 2 of lead.

• Taxonomy is descriptive. Any DNA type work been done as yet?

DNA paper added jimfbleak (talk) 11:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Good sutff, I had initially meant molecular work on the ibises as a family. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• The Turkish ibis population is centred near the small town of Birecik.. - shouldn't this be "was" as the turkish pop is extinct? Or is this referring to the feral/reintroduced one? sorry, kept reading and saw the material on turkey. Still, the lead is vaguely worded on this, and it reads as if the three reintroduction projects are equivalent (the Turkish one needs to be spelt out a bit more I think).

Look, I reckon this would pass GA now, and the good thing is it will get an independent review. Nice article! Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I second the confusion about the Turkish population. It isn't clear at the end of the section in habitat and range that there is a semi-natural population there, or where birds that drop in on the Syrian population come from in the line the discovery that Turkish birds migrate through the colony in Palmyra has led to hopes that some migrants may join the Syrian breeding population and boost the numbers in that country is unclear, even when you later learn of the semi natural population (are they allowed to migrate yet? Unclear! Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Replies:

• No DNA on the ibises as a whole, but comment helped me find the ssp(??) stuff.
• I've tried to clarify the Turkish stuff. When I started this article, I was confused myself, and I guess it still shows. Is it any clearer now?

jimfbleak (talk) 07:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

First of all, great job writing this article and sorting through the various wild, semi-wild, semi-captive, captive, and where-on-earth-did-this-come-from populations. I gave it a copyedit, so you may want to follow after me to ensure I didn’t change any meanings or weird British things. Also, I had two quick comments:

Many thanks for your careful reading and editing

the last sentence in Breeding, “Both parents incubate and feed the chicks.”, initially ended in a comma. Was there meant to be more?

I don't think so, just a typo

I’m guessing, as you have put a whole lot of effort into this article recently, that there are no more current counts of the surviving number? Also, how was the number in captivity figure reached when less are mentioned as being in zoos of Europe, NA, and Japan later? Does it include the semi-wild colonies?

My bad, I've update the figures, and made the captive population less precise. the 850+250 is the number in WAZA affiliated zoos, which won't be the whole total, but I don't know how the other figures are estimated.

Again, great job, and good luck with GA. IMO, the prose and things related to it are fine. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for you help andkind words

Beak length

Would it be better to give the mean and standard deviation in the table? This will give a much better indication of the significance of the differences of the means. Snowman (talk) 12:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Grünau

"Grünau" is linked but it is a dab page, and it is not obvious to me which "Grünau" is intended. The dab page features a "Grünau" in Berlin, but this is in Germany and not Austria as you might think from reading the paragraph in the article. Snowman (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting questions

You asked me to copyedit this article. I have done so and here are my questions:

• The Moroccan birds are resident year-round, but the species was migratory over its former range, wintering well south of its breeding areas. The wintering range of the tiny Syrian colony was located in Ethiopia in 2006. - I think these sentences are slightly confusing. Are they saying that the birds used to migrate but no longer do so?

the extant Moroccan populations have always been resident, other populations migrated, "the rest of the former range" should clarify

I still think this sentence is confusing - "the species" seems to refer back to "the Moroccan birds" - I would suggest rewriting this. Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The wild Moroccan population is resident year-round, although in the rest of its former range this ibis was migratory, wintering well south of its breeding areas. any better?

I've placed the second clause first - the general before the specific. I think this works better. Awadewit (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• The reasons for this species' long-term decline are unclear - "unclear" or "unknown"?

source says "unclear"

• Although earlier scholars considered that the man-eating Stymphalian birds of Greek legend were based on the Northern Bald Ibis, modern opinion is that they were more probably based on the Sacred Ibis. - What does "earlier scholars" and "modern opinion" mean? Can we put rough dates to these?

I think present version fixes that

• they form one of the two subfamilies of the Threskiornithidae, the other being the spoonbills - How come "Threskiornithidae" is capitalized but not "spoonbills"?

Scientific names for bird families (and genus, order, phylum) are always capitalised, English names, other than species, are not. I've added "Plateinae" now

• The species probably split into two distinct populations at least 400 years ago and, since then, the two populations have been diverging morphologically, ecologically, and genetically - Could you describe exactly what this split was? I take it, part of the split was geographic. for example. What is the geographic line between the "eastern" and the "western"? Where does one species start and the other end?

"geographic" added. Since all the populations between NW Africa and Turkey are extinct, we cannot know where the boundary was originally. In particular, if the forms are considered to be different subspecies, we cannot know which was the nominate form, since Gesner's description was of the extinct Swiss birds

• The genus name, Geronticus, is derived from the Greek γέρων, meaning old man and referring to the bald head of the aged. - I added this bit about "of the aged" - is that correct?

seems to have gone now

• The plumage is black, glossed with bronze-green and violet, and there is a wispy ruff on the bird's hind neck. - I'm not entirely sure I know what "glossed with bronze-green and violet" means.

added "iridescence", although that may be a tautology

• The Northern Bald Ibis is readily distinguished from its close relative, the Southern Bald Ibis of Southern Africa, by the southern species' whitish face.[4] The Northern Bald is larger and stockier than the similarly dark-plumaged Glossy Ibis, which overlaps its range; in flight, when the bare parts' colouration may not be visible, the Bald Ibis' less rounded wings and shorter neck give it a different profile,[3] and its relatively short legs mean that, unlike those of the Glossy Ibis, its feet do not project beyond the tail. - I think this whole paragraph could be rewritten to be a bit clearer. I had to reread it a couple of times to be sure I was understanding it. I would start with the coloration and provide all of the information on that and then move on the shape differences.

rewritten for clarity

" In flight, when the bare parts colouration may not be visible" - I don't really understand this phrase. Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

when the bill and face colouration jimfbleak (talk) 07:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• forages for food in irregularly cultivated, grazed dry areas such as semi-arid steppes, and fallow fields - Something about the phrase "grazed dry areas" strikes me as strange, but I don't write about grazing all that often. Is this an acceptable usage?

removed "dry" since "semi-arid" follows

• The Moroccan breeding birds are resident, dispersing along the coast after the nesting season, but this species was migratory over most of its former range, and has occurred as a vagrant to Spain, Iraq, Egypt, the Azores and Cape Verde.[3] Coastal fog may provide extra moisture for the Moroccan birds, and enable them to remain year-round - I'm not sure I totally follow what is being said here. Is this saying that the species used to be migratory and at one time was a vagrant? If so, I think this needs to be said a lot more clearly. Also, the information about what is seems to be split up, which is confusing.

as above, tweaked to clarify

I think that it sounds as if "this species" refers back to "the moroccan breeding birds". Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The Moroccan breeding birds are resident, dispersing along the coast after the nesting season. It has been suggested that coastal fog provides extra moisture for this population, and enables the ibises to remain year-round. In the rest of its former range, away from the Moroccan coastal locations, the Northern Bald Ibis migrated south for the winter, and formerly occurred as a vagrant to Spain, Iraq, Egypt, the Azores and Cape Verde. jimfbleak (talk) 07:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• Satellite tagging of thirteen Syrian birds in 2006 showed that the three adults in the group, plus a fourth untagged adult, wintered together from February to July in the highlands of Ethiopia, where they were last recorded almost 30 years previously. - "they were last recorded", meaning "the species was last recorded"?

done

• Buildings have been used for nesting in the past. - Does this mean that the ibis no longer nests in buildings?

The only remaining wild birds nest on cliffs

This needs to be made clearer in the article. Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

added but now breeds only in natural sites jimfbleak (talk) 07:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• The second paragraph of "Feeding" does not say what the birds dig out of the soil to eat.

third para gives diet, should I change the order of the two paras?

However, it is not clear that those are the things the birds are digging out of the soil. I think some reorganization would help here. Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Paragraph reorganised now for better clarity jimfbleak (talk) 07:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• For the first time in the species' recorded history, there is now evidence of population growth in the wild, and the population in Morocco has increased to 100 breeding pairs during the past decade - We should probably add a specific date for this just in case it is a decade before anyone returns to improve this article.

increased to 100 breeding pairs in the decade to 2008.

• The Moroccan population is monitored by the Souss Massa park authority, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) and the Spanish Ornithological Society under the auspices of the Moroccan Ministry of Water and Forests and BirdLife International. - This sentence seems randomly tacked on at the end of the paragraph. What do you think about making this a caption?

probably still not good - should I remove this altogether?

The information didn't seem that essential to me. I think removal is a good idea. Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed now jimfbleak (talk) 07:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• The main cause of breeding failure at the Souss-Massa National Park was the loss of eggs to predators - "was" or "is"?

is now

• Predators on adult birds have not been studied, but the very similar Southern Bald Ibis, Geronticus calvus, is hunted by large raptors, particularly those that share its breeding cliffs - This seems oddly phrased - should it be "predator rates" or "the effects of predators" or some such phrase?

The effects of predators

• Chicks should be hand-reared in groups with contact with human "parents" as the preferred technique for preparing birds for release. - This is wordy and awkward - could you revise?

In order to prepare birds for release, groups of chicks should be hand-reared by human "parents".

So much better! Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

• The article seems to be a bit unbalanced - there is so much about conservation! I kept wondering about the birds themselves. There was so little about them - their eating habits, breeding habits, etc. I was wondering why exactly.

I can't find anything beyond what's in the article on the biology of the birds (and, believe me, I've spent hours searching). I think that it's inevitable that a bird so close to extinction will have a great deal on conservation, and the number of schemes makes the length of that section inevitable

Ok - I just wanted to check! Awadewit (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I hope my copyedits were helpful. Awadewit (talk) 04:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

thank you, that was really helpful, and the article is better for the effort you have put in. Please let me know if my changes have been counter-productive or if there any other issues jimfbleak (talk) 09:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, an "endash" is the same as "–", so there was no need change any "–" back to "endash". An ordinary hyphen is "-". Snowman (talk) 09:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that's all fixed now, thanks again, jimfbleak (talk) 07:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong image description

The image labelled "the austrian reintroduction site== (or somesuch) is of a plaque at a former breeding ground of the bird from the 16th century. Not anywhere near the modern project (except for being, well, in Austria.) Not sure if that should be simply corrected in the byline, or the image moved to another section as well, or simply deleted; hence why I put it here for discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.233.35.82 (talk) 19:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Turkey, Syria Engage In Bird Diplomacy"

This is an interesting and relevant news article that can be used to expand the article: [1] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion Northern Bald Ibis is the Bird Ababil mentioned in Quran chapter 105 ,if you track Ibis ,you will find its root from Yemen mecca ,madina ,Syria to turkey . Sohelahmedtrp (talk) 07:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

units and compliments

I switched inches and cm in the egg size after getting an e-mail that also said, "Thanks for that wonderful article on the northern bald ibis. I went to Wikipedia after reading today in Der Spiegel about one that had made it from Italy to Germany on her own," and "Keep up the good work." I explained that I'd hardly contributed to the article, but I thought those who did would like to see that. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 03:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion Northern Bald Ibis is the Bird Ababil mentioned in Quran chapter 105 ,if you track Ibis ,you will find its root from Yemen mecca ,madina ,Syria to turkey . Sohelahmedtrp (talk) 07:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Congratulations!

I enjoyed reading this article.

I come from the home of the Straw-necked Ibis, Sydney. They arrived in Sydney from the inland during the drought of 1966 and liked city-life so much that they stayed. The population is at pest proportions. They are worse than pigeons, seagulls and flying-foxes combined. One cannot sit in the park for lunch without having ones fish and chips snatched. Yelling "Yaaah!" into their faces does nothing. The only way to get rid of them is to hurl your joggers at them.

Amandajm (talk) 00:53, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion Northern Bald Ibis is the Bird Ababil mentioned in Quran chapter 105 ,if you track Ibis ,you will find its root from Yemen mecca ,madina ,Syria to turkey . Sohelahmedtrp (talk) 07:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Northern Bald Ibis And Ababil

In my opinion Northern Bald Ibis is the Bird Ababil mentioned in Quran chapter 105 ,if you track Ibis ,you will find its root from Yemen mecca ,madina ,Syria to turkey . Sohelahmedtrp (talk) 07:25, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Sohelahmedtrp, unfortunately we can't accept personal opinions, particularly in a Featured Article. We need independent verifiable sources to enable us to verify the facts. Sources that are not acceptable include personal sites, social media and other sites that can be self-edited, blogs and websites of unknown or non-reliable provenance. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:23, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok ,I got it , My thinking was that when I saw the root of the bird Northern Bald Ibis , I just clicked about the bird I heard mentioned in Quran .I have to better research on it ,thank you. Sohelahmedtrp (talk) 13:18, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Range map

This seems to be one of only two bird species articles without a ranger map. I see this map[2] was removed, how come, Jimfbleak? FunkMonk (talk) 11:37, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

FunkMonk, it appears have been removed by this edit that replaced it with another map. Since the new map was for something entirely different, I can't see a problem if you think it should be restored Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Alright, I was puzzled because they don't seem to show the same thing. I'll put the unused map in the taxobox. FunkMonk (talk) 13:53, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

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WP:URFA/2020

The range map seems totally wrong when compared to the IUCN's map. A455bcd9 (talk) 10:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)