Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 12

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Tag

The POV tag has been in place since May 2020 - with admin oversight - and reflects the disputed state of the article for which no resolution has emerged despite several proposals and counter-proposals since then. The discussion should be restarted though in order to improve the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:49, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

You can't tag an article, then walk away and leave the article tagged forever. Doesn't work like that. Khirurg (talk) 04:40, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: see the discussion on the Multiple issues section. I made some proposals, but except of Calthinus nobody responded. Which issue should we start with? Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:21, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Exactly there is no discussion 3+ months now in this tp. If there is an active issue let me know.Alexikoua (talk) 09:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, finally attention is being given again to the list of issues I raised at the time. The discussion involved @Calthinus: too and @El C: encouraged us to sort them out on the talk page. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

There still is no resolution on the dispute, the tag is completely justified. N.Hoxha (talk) 09:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Pretending that there is an active issue the last 3+ months isn't a productive approach. @Ktrimi: it appears you edit war about the pov tag but as you admit you don't even 'start' a discussion. That's not a good initiative after your recent report due to large scale disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 09:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Pretending that the discussion has been resolved while not being the case, is actually not productive. Please, refrain from accusing editors of edit-warring when nothing of that sort is occurring here. N.Hoxha (talk) 09:44, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua, Idk what that report has to do with this, but anyways it was doomed to fail to do anything other than get closed with no action, and indeed so it did. as you admit you don't even 'start' a discussion Idk what on earth you are talking about. Frankly, I am not able rn to figure out what the point you are trying to make is. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree that Alexikoua's comment about this report is rather off-topic and inappropriate to say the least. Especially considering that the only user who got a warning from an admin was the filler and not the user named Ktrimi991. N.Hoxha (talk) 10:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I also have made many proposals - all of which Alexikoua and Khirurg refused to reply or consider aka WP:STONEWALL. Now don't remove the tag again. I even started a BLP about Katsifas and then you didn't accept a single thing to be written about his politics. You can't ask for the tag removed when you've repeatedly removed from the article everything that other editors have written.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Revisited the previous discussion in which even the addition of the percentages that Greek minority parties have gotten in elections was refused at some point. A dispute resolution that can't move forwards because some editors don't accept anything that doesn't a fit their narrative to be included is not a "stale" discussion. @N.Hoxha: keep creating your great maps and focus on content creation. I have the same suggestion for @Alexikoua:. We've barely had any sort of interaction in the last months and everyone got to focus on articles they wanted to improve and the WP:SILENT consensus was that we can't move forwards because of the disagreements that exist - and I get that at a level from your point of view Alexikoua (as you should understand the same about my point of view) - although we should make progress at some point via RfC or DRN. Now, why Khirurg chose to restart this cycle (in August of all times) with a removal of the dispute tag - about which everyone involved knows that it didn't go "stale" - is beyond me. I plan to continue this discussion only if at least some of the specific issues are addressed - as they have been proposed or counter-proposed a few months ago. That's how dispute resolution works. It's draining energy from other projects on-wiki from everyone if we enter another WP:FORUM discussion with no plan or proposals about resolution.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

A POV tag can't be displayed indefinitely. There has to be an active discussion that discusses the underlying reasons for it being displayed. El_C 14:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

El_C, The article needs to include elements about the wider population, i.e Muslims or more about it being irredentist idea. As it is now it is POV. I want to add few things separate to the issues these others are going on about. Access to books/jourrnal articles is limited at the moment, the Melbourne covid situation and its hard lockdown has been really shitty for me. For the moment the tag is apt.Resnjari (talk) 14:49, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: Ok, I'm waiting for you to address any issues. I also fail to understand how Hoxha's maps are related with this article, though I remember that Resnjari was quite upset with Hoxha's unreliable sources used in various images. @MSchreiber: it appears you need to read the correspondent sources before tagging here and there [[1]]. I'll add additional inlines +quote in order to avoid further tag bombing.Alexikoua (talk) 14:51, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua, hey don't use misinterpret my comments. Hoxha has made good maps. My issue was the source he used for a particular one. In fact over the years my commentary about problematic maps has been toward your' like about the distractions of minorities in Albania and source misinterpretation to achieve certain desired outcomes on that map. So lets not get ahead of ourselves. Sometimes memories can vary from what was precise.Resnjari (talk) 15:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

(after lots of edit conflicts) @El C I agree that the article should move beyond a tagged version and that means that either some form of inclusion/resolution of different views must be achieved or we should move to RfC if we can't do that ourselves - but how do you think we can do that about multiple disputes? I can recognize three different disputed sub-topics. @Alexikoua will do that later on in the day. The cn tag is just a verification tag, I've never disputed anything after quotes are provided and in our interactions we haven't had such a problem whenever you've asked for full quotes too. Also, don't remove the tag in the course of other edits you make [2] --Maleschreiber (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I assume you need to be precise about what is pov according to your rationale. Generally speaking that Hoxha's map are good but his sources are bad are irrelevant in this case.Alexikoua (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Something like using Sotiradis, a propaganda map for irredentist claims from over a hundred years ago for one. Anyway on Hoxha, i showed the newbie a better source instead of 19th century dribble. A discussion was had and the issue resolved. Something about Hoxha has left you feeling its unresolved for you to keep bringing up a nothing issue over a map that never made the final cut in an article. Silly, no?Resnjari (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

• Can we start to discuss the issues one by one? Meanwhile, I am starting to add some content on the contribution that various Greeks from the minority have made to Albanian society, culture or economy. I do not think anyone is against that, right? The article currently elaborates on coflicts between Albanians and Greeks only. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Two issues:

• 1)All election results should be included that have to do with the minority instead of a heavily edited version of results. The articles says that Bollanos won in 2007 in Himara, but has nothing to say about him getting 64 votes in 2019. I don't understand why an old event is preferred to the most recent one. Election results of Greek parties should be discussed properly too - as do all similar articles about regions in which minorities live. Dispute resolution here means that all results are presented equally and in due weight - I'm not arguing in favor of an overbloated section about electoral results.
• 2)Demographics should reflect contemporary reality. Most people from this community don't live in Albania nowadays for reasons that have to do with post-socialist economic collapse. Almost all (like most Albanian emigrants in Europe) of them never returned - which is something absent and heavily skewed in the article. I am in favor of the article explaining the reality of what poverty does to communities in the borderlands and I am not in favor of a fictional version of reality in which semi-abandoned villages are presented as demographically-economically functional in order to sustain a certain narrative.
• 3)Unrelated, to what to what other editors have highlighted - I have an issue with the article not mentioning the basic event in which this community took part in WWII - the antifascist partisan struggle in Albania. I will address that in my edits outside of this dispute resolution process in order to not further complicate it.

@El C: could you (if you have the time) engage in some admin oversight during this process? Or could you suggest what the proper process is in terms of policy?--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no immediate suggestions at this time beyond engaging this article talk page further toward resolution and/or availing yourselves of a dispute resolution request aimed at bringing outside input to the dispute. El_C 15:36, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

As far I see 'all' three issues above have been addressed in a very careful way in order to secure neutrality: all election results (without POV expressions) are part of the article, WWII guerrilla warfare (Thanasis Zikos etc.) as well as demographics: both historical and contemporary. Perhaps precise suggestions are needed here. Alexikoua (talk) 15:42, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

No, attempts to move towards a more inclusive version have been met with reverts - but let's try to leave that behind and focus on the present. Issue #1 Northern_Epirus#Minority's_representation_on_local_and_state_politics a)should include Bollanos 2019 run b)should include election results for the Greek parties c)should modify the sentence In the following election most of the Greek minority abstained from the procedure and Goro was re-elected. (based on one article from Greek HuffPost) to the neutral Some members of the Greek minority.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

• Since Maleschreiber started with the 3 concerns above, after they are settled we can start with the concerns that I listed in the Multiple POV issues section above. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

a. Bollanos was not a representative of the Greek minority in this procedure. By the way this was not even about national elections but local ones. As such there is no reason for inclusion. b. 'most of the Greek minority' is sourced since the main representative of the minority did not run in elections. Next issue? As I remember I kindly asked you to initiate RSN. Nevertheless you preferred not to.Alexikoua (talk) 16:46, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

a. He is highlighted in the article as a Greek candidate in the local 2007 elections and as the "first Greek mayor" of Himara. Why shouldn't his local 2019 result be mentioned then? If you want only one of the two results to be included, then that is a misleading narrative about local politics in Himara. If you don't want to address it now, we can move it to the RfC. b. You haven't answered about that one. Should election results of Greek parties be included or not? The article includes 1994 results about them but no recent results. Why is that? c. It's one source from one Greek newspaper and the since part is a narrative that you are putting forward. The most important part of it though is that participation in local elections in Himara dropped from 39% to around 16%. At most we can display the actual figures and then say that some of those are from Greek minority. But the argument that Goro won because the Greek minority abstained (as if it is represented by one party or as if Goro could have won only if they didn't participate) is OR/POV. It also implies that politics are largely ethnicity-based, which isn't true in this case, nor is it supported in bibliography--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

a. In 2007 he was a representative of the Greek minority but in 2019 he was not, as many others you participated as independent candidates, b. The article includes the main information about minority politics even about recent elections. Minority participation in the last election is also present (2017). I can't understand which elections you mean. Everything is inside.Alexikoua (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

a. Not a criterion for inclusion or exclusion as you have included results for others who were also not "representatives of the Greek minority" by which you refer to two specific parties. So, if you don't want to have Bollanos included based on that criterion then we have to remove those results too. But I stand for the inclusion of everything relevant including his result in 2019. You can't highlight so much one person's candidacy in 2007, but include nothing about his later candidacy b. there are no results for the Greek parties in the article. None at all except for a POV comparison between 2004 and 2017. I propose local + national elections results of the two Greek parties to be added in form of a table. c. I've explained my proposal about the 2019 elections in Himara. If you don't agree in any of the three points, we can move those to the RfC and other points can be discussed - but don't make the claim that "everything is inside" because it's easily verifiable that the article addresses none of those issues. --Maleschreiber (talk) 17:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

There are several ethnic Greek candidates who did not run as representatives of the local Greek parties, that's why many of them joined the main Albanian parties. Some of them even succeeded and became MPS such as Marto, Tavo, Angjeli, but I see you don't insist to include their numbers too. Detailed info not only about national but also local elections by ethnic Greeks the last 30 years in all detail is quite huge, this can be part of a new article that deals exclusively with the issue. The main events need to be mentioned here though.Alexikoua (talk) 17:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

By the way Greek party participation (+ethnic Greek MPs in non-Greek parties) in all national elections is already present. So there can't be a claim that the main results are not present.17:42, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

(unindent) All of these issues are extremely minor and are not a reason to tag the entire article (especially the Bollanos thing). If we went by this logic, every article in the Balkans would be tagged for all eternity. Tagging articles forever on the basis of minor perceived defects and then filibustering the discussion is a form of gaming the system. Khirurg (talk) 17:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua, again, we need to have some content about the Albanian Muslim population (both historic and modern, the majority population), if this article is treated as a 'region'. It is sorely lacking especially the geographical scope in land size it purports to cover. And some pics too of their culture like a mosque for balance with the churches.Resnjari (talk) 17:46, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

These edits which are being called "extremely minor" were all reverted when they were added. They are issue #1 of what I've raised - then follows the demographics section. I'll make those editis per WP:BOLD and then we can either rediscuss it or move to the demographics section. Resnjari yes that has to be addressed and also the fact that most of the people in this region were anti-fascist partisans in WWII and afterwards.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Islamization is described in detail, Ali Pasha era too. Apart from that if this piece of info (still not presented) is connected within the context of N.Epirus its ok, but if its just about Muslims in southern Albania then this faces problems.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Please point out where (i.e sentance, section) the conversion of Orthodox Albanians is covered in the article that led to the rise of Muslim Albanian grouping in the whole area (who became and are today the majority population), and no Ali Pasha is not responsible for most of the process. I am no novice on this subject. That Muslim Albaniians are ommited, thier religious culture, schooliing etc, while the article makes sweeping claims about the region's extent without delving into all the peoples who live there is undue and POV. Now you may say, oh but there are no sources that directly discuss Northern Epirus and those kinds of thingss, my repsonse yes there are (i.e: Psomas, Austin and of course Wnnifrith).Resnjari (talk) 20:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

In terms of historic regions see for example Chameria (the local Greek culture/folklore is absent in that article too). I also fail to see how Muslim Albanian is part of the N.epirus context. No wonder the sources you provided (Psomas, Austin & Winnifrith) are not focused in Muslim Albanian schooling etc.. By the way Psomas states that N. Epirus was initially (later 19th-early20th century) an Orthodox majority region.Alexikoua (talk) 20:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Its mainly, though not completely absent because in the context of sources on Chameria, overwhelmingly it’s about Muslim Albanians and Orthodox Albanian speakers, as that was the main population pre ww2 between the Pavla river (north) and down south up to above the Lamari plain (south). I'll be clear. When i'm referring to this topic i am not saying to get sources that do not mention/cite Northern Epirus and then fill the gaps. That would be synthesis. What i am referring to is to use sources that explicitly refer to Northern Epirus directly and deal with what i said. Heck two scholarly works (i.e Psomas and Winnifrith) have Northern Epirus in their title. On the Orthodox, Kokolakis says that Muslims where undercounted at times. However on Psomaas, he does refer to Orthodox Albanians and they being the deciding factor that led to the region being part of Albania. That said is it mentioned in the article? Nope. Albanian schooling did exist (both Orthodox and Muslims attended those schools part of the Rilindja period. Mentioned.? Nope. Many, many flaws.Resnjari (talk) 21:09, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I hardly doubt if it was the majority population in the Greek part of Chameria (the bibliography you mentioned claims the opposite as in the case of N. Epirus demographics Psomas claims an Orthodox majority at times). Moreover this bibliography does not focus in the Albanian-Muslim grouping unless it is connected in the Northern Epirus context. I'm still waiting for you to provide a precise proposal since Muslim Albanian information is already presented in the current article.Alexikoua (talk) 21:16, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

On Chameria, we have people like Baltsiotis, Kokolakis etc. Anyway back to this topic, which bibliography are we talkin' about? RS sources or nationalist histriography that paints all Orthodox people in the area as Greek? Psomas which your aware of highlights throughout his work the importance of the Orthodox Albanian population and notes their high in numbers. And yes he does discuss Muslim Albanians and how they the Albanian movement. That is one RS source which would go far to addressing massive shortcomings. On Muslim Albanian information, it is not presented in the article. Ali Pasha does not encapsulate the whole Muslim population or its history in the area. You said in a previous comment that the conversion process is mentioned. Where? You cannot point to one sentence, yet alone a section. I got much in mind for this article. First other editors can finish addressing the small fry stuff from before.Resnjari (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

This article has such a large number of POV issues that it might take weeks to fix them all. Somewhere the article describes the Albanian-Greek rivalry on the region in the early to mid 20th century as limited to some kind of Muslim Albanians vs Orthodox Greeks conflict. Resnjari makes very good points, and content based on RS that elaborate on Northern Epirus should be added to the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm does this mean that your initiative to add info about "Greeks from the minority that have contributed to Albanian society, culture or economy" as you declared above has been cancelled now? I'm sorry but so far I see only abstract comments without precise proposals. All issues have been addressed but if you are personally against noticeboard discussion that's another issue.Alexikoua (talk) 22:07, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I am preparing the content on members of the Greek minority and their contribution. The article as is now gives a picture suited for the typical Balkan nationalistic narratives that go on to say that minorities have only problems and do not integrate with the majority. You can keep repeating yourself with the "all issues have been addressed" phrase, but it does not bring any benefit to you, or to the rest of editors involved for that matter. What do you mean with "noticeboard discussion" is not clear to me. It is surprising that you make the assumption that I am against sth that I have not mentioned or responded to. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Greek culture is covered in the page (i.e schools etc), practically most of the article relates to that group, while simultaneously claiming to represent a region that spans a quarter or more of Albanian territory. Well in that scope, it incorporates other peoples in the area too. All issues have not been addressed, that's why we are here in the talkpage.Resnjari (talk) 22:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

As I've said since you are against Chameria being full of non-Albanian info the same counts with terms mostly used by non-Albanians and Northern Epirus is rejected traditionally by Albanians as a term. If you can provide a source that this info (which you have still not presented) is connected with N. Epirus then ok.Alexikoua (talk) 22:35, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari, I suggest you start writing content based on the RS you mentioned above. Do not wait for the other issues to be settled. I would also suggest that you focus on writing and improving content, rather than focusing too much on the talk page discussion. You know how these Balkan talk page discussions become sometimes: a rather total waste of time with much repetition and frivolous comments etc. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ktrimi: proposing co-editors to ignore the present discussion and blindly adding data without approval can be considered disruptive. Possible additions can be discussed in tp before addition especially those of controversial nature.Alexikoua (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, bringing Chameria into this is distracting from the topic. On that if it does not mention the subject and associated content then it does not belong there. There are two sources (Psomas and Winnifrith) on this topic which are RS and have Northern Epirus in their titles meaning their whole work is dedicated to this topic directly. Austin only refers to bits and pieces, but relevant in the areas that discuss Northern Epirus and Prince Wied. Ktrimi, might starting adding a few bits here are there to see how it goes.Resnjari (talk) 23:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice, Resnjari. I am doing the same thing. Alexikoua, stop adding words in my mouth. I suggested that Resnjari gives more attention to the addition of content than to the talk page discussion. Nowhere did I suggest that Resnjari should ignore the talk page or the consensus building process. Again, stop accusing me or other editors, and accept my kind suggestion that you too focus more on action than on words. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari the information you provided here so far is in disagreement with the sources you presented (demographics etc.). I suggest you make precise proposals of text and sources before adding controversial material.Alexikoua (talk) 23:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

After all these years you must be under the assumption i have not read any of them. Aside on the matter about Muslim numbers, the Albanian factor is the major and determing one and outlined as such by Psomas. Anyway i said what i had to say.Resnjari (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Its weird you still claim that Psomas considers Muslim Albanians as an majority in N. Epirus -since ever-, though his research clearly points that in Ottoman times it had an Orthodox majority. What's even more weird is that you still claim that Chameria was overwhelmingly Albanian (source?) which isn't quite a neutral statement considered that the western part was exclusively Greek inhabited (Tsotsoumpis, Baltsiotis, the later even labels Paramythia as Greek speaking settlement, even the Chameria map you created leaves half the area as non-Albanian).Alexikoua (talk) 09:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I have the feeling that some info about the I. Qemali-Greek government approach and negotiations are good to be added since it's in the N.E. context.Alexikoua (talk) 10:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I will write the election section today - but I do need a cup of coffee first. Side comment: I've worked on Ottoman defters from that area and I've read the surnames of Greeks that lived there in the 16th century Ottoman Empire. I get that national identity is also constructed on the basis of high culture and political affiliation and it's totally understandable and acceptable. But the people who may have called themselves Greek in the early 20th century there, were definitely not the same people as those who bore Greek names in the 16th century, which is to say that the categories used to investigate the area are much more fluid and not mutually exclusive.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

May I ask what do you mean by saying writing a section that's already extensive and already includes all national elections results? So far inclusion of local elections results as well as by non-minority representative still needs to be explained.Alexikoua (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

(ec) @Maleschreiber: Any proposed additions should be first posted here on the talkpage for discussion until consensus is reached. Otherwise they will be reverted per WP:BRD. Do not presume to try to ram them through by brute force edit-warring as you have done in the past, or else admin attention will be sought (in fact I imagine admins are closely watching this page). Khirurg (talk) 15:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Yesterday, you were arguing that these are "extremely minor edits" so I considered to just rewrite that section. Now, you don't consider them that minor - otherwise why would there need to be a consensus in the talkpage about them if they are "already included" in some form? Ok, we'll discuss the section - but don't downplay disputes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Propose your changes here, and we can see what's minor. Based on what you're saying above and your general editing history lately, I have a feeling what you will propose will be far from minor. Just a hunch Khirurg (talk) 16:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Roughly today, my proposal will be put forward.--Maleschreiber (talk) 05:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Disputed section - issue #1

• The steady demographic decline of the Greek minority has led ethnic Greek elites to widen their political base and include Greek Albanians and Albanians who have declared themselves to be Greeks for emigration purposes. Greek organizations have tried to maintain their position in Albanian society by moving residents of Greece back to Albania during elections. In 2004, there were five members of Greek origin in the Albanian Parliament, and two ministers in the Albanian cabinet, the same number of parliament members were elected in the latest elections (2017) too. In 2013, Unity for Human Rights Party (UHRP - the electoral wing of Omonoia) elected one representative in the Albanian parliament (0.9%) and in 2015 failed to elected any mayors. In 2017, it managed to elected one representative under the coalition of the Democratic Party (PD).

(The municipal elections held in February 2007...conviction of a candidate) followed by:

In the 2019 municipal & local assembly elections, the UHRP - as part of the Democratic Party coalition - called for the Greek minority to abstain from the elections, while the other party of the Greek minority MEGA participated. A part of the Greek minority abstained. Goro was re-elected, while former mayor Bolanos who ran as an independent candidate for the position of municipal councillor got 64 votes in total. MEGA's candidate for mayor of Finiq got the first place in the municipal elections, while nationwide the party got 3,028 votes. He was one of the two ethnic Greek mayors to be elected - the other one is Dhimitraq Toli of Dropull with a total of 2,451 votes.

I focused on three aspects: the political conduct of the different Greek political parties, general details which the article lacks about electoral results and some wider issues which affect Greek representation in Albanian politics. The article doesn't even address the most apparent one - which is that Greek representation has rapidly declined because the community doesn't have enough voting power - like many other minorities throughout the Balkans in post-socialist countries.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

By reading about "the steady demographic decline of the Greek minority" the author refers to a "specific period of transformation and numerical decline". Nevertheless your proposed text implies that there is still a demographic decline, though after 2010 there is a demographic increase.Alexikoua (talk) 20:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

There's no demographic increase - that is just a SYNTH that you have to tried to introduce in the article by creating editorial implications that bibliography doesn't put forward (one of the reasons that it is tagged). Some Greek emigrants who have returned doesn't create a "demographic increase", nor does it reverse or even mitigate the very severe depopulation. If you think that areas like Dropull and wherever this community is concentrated etc. are actually increasing in population, then you're WP:FRINGE because nobody would ever put that forward - including representatives from this community. We all know that it only requires a very quick search in bibliography to confirm depopulation in much more urgent terms than the ones I specifically used to be as subtle as possible. It's sad that these villages are depopulated - like many others in the Balkans - but we can't maintain an imaginary demographic status forever here. We'll discuss that in the demographics section in detail after the discussion about this particular section about political/electoral representation. You could also make changes to the proposed section or add content.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:15, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, the numerical decline of the Greek minority is an ongoing process, and multiple RS elaborate on it. It is hard to find young people willing to leave Athens for Dropull or Finiq. You are probably referring to a few cases of immigrants who returned after 2008, but they were small in number, and many returned to Greece again. No wonder the Gjirokaster county is the first in Albania for population decline. You can not claim that since 2000 the Greek minority has not declined in number. Unless you have a RS saying that the decline is not affecting elections anymore, it ia all OR. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Btw @Maleschreiber: Here is a case of OR to apparently "address" the issue of population decline. The Himara article says that Comparatively, the 2015 Albanian Civil Registry offices suggested a municipal population of 27,049 people, mostly as a result of the Greek community's boycotting of the 2011 census where it recorded only 5,738 people. Nowhere does the given source say that the ACR's number is larger due to boycott. The ACR counts all Albanian citizens, including those who live abroad. On the other hand, a census, at least in Albania, counts all citizens that live in the country. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

There also is Finiq where Alexikoua found an OR solution a few years ago. Since the 2011 census results are disputed, he added the number of those who live anywhere other than Finiq. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

The above controversial proposal is simply recycling the same weak arguments that have been already rejected:

1.selective use of local election results & no wonder that's based on primary material, not even a single secondary source is interested into such a detail.
2.the decline is still ongoing? Hmmm Unfortunately it appears that RS material is against you, and that's already stated in the article. However after the Greek economic crisis (2009), members of the Greek minority returned to Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 22:20, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

1. 1 That is how election results are cited. Which results have been ommitted?
2. 2 That's for the next discussion but where does it says that the return of some Greek emigrants has reversed or at least mitigated demographic decline of the Greek community? That some Greek emigrants have returned doesn't mean more or less than that some Greek emigrants have returned. Read WP:SYNTH for your personal "conclusions". --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Even if the population decline stopped, Alexikoua needs RS that says that Greek elites are not trying or have not tried to widen their political base by including Greek Albanians and Albanians who have declared themselves to be Greeks for emigration purposes. Same thing for Greek organizations that have tried to maintain their position in Albanian society by moving residents of Greece back to Albania during elections. Especially the latter. Nowhere does Alexikoua's source mention such election issues, let alone back Alexikoua's OR. Anyways, for the sake of further clarity to anyone reading the article, the sentece could specify that the specific election issues were noted in a 2002 Council of Europe report. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

It's quite obvious that the sole purpose of this addition is not the elections, but pushing the "population decline" canard. So, nope. Khirurg (talk) 23:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

The Orthodox population, inclusive of Greeks has been in population decline from long ago. In Albania the Orthodox were the first religious community to start having few children, i.e Clayer (2003), p.6: The demographic transition has been only partial in Albania during the communist period. Statistics show that the Northern areas, with a Sunni Muslim and/or a Catholic population, experienced a very high population growth rates during the 1970s and 1980s.On the contrary, in the areas with an important Orthodox population, these rates were much lower. It means that the confessional equilibrium has certainly varied in favour of Catholicism and Islam, if one only takes into considerations the original religious affiliation of the individuals. This, however remains a hypothesis, since no census including the religious denomination of the population was taken after 1942. The opening of borders post 1992 accelerated the situation when many, left Albania for Greece, given citizenship over there after they declared themselves "Northern Epirotes". How can the Greek community or wider Orthodox community have grown, even with a small number that returned after Greece's economy tanked in the 2010s? Unless someone can show that Greeks are having more babies than the rest of the country, it's a minority in population decline, just like the rest of the Orthodox in Albania, even if some other ethnic groups like some Aromanians are self declaring as Greek (Kitsaki, 2005, p.151: [3], Konidaris pp.84-85: [4]) or some Muslim Albanians to get Greek citizenship (Kretsi, 2005 [5]) for employment opportunites etc.Resnjari (talk) 23:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari: brought forward more RS that describe the same basic situation: a community in severe decline which becomes more inclusive of other communities in order to sustain itself. We can include all that in the article via discussion and collaboration or we can do it under strict admin oversight in order to protect the integrity of how bibliography is used. I'm open to both options - but I would prefer the first one because it improves communication and understanding.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

All form 15 years ago. The decline stopped long ago. And you know this. Anyway, remove the "decline" part, and we can add the rest to the article. But if you insist on keeping the "decline" part (as I expect you will), nothing will be added. Simple. Khirurg (talk) 01:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

The Greek population is increasing after 2010 and Greek schools are opening in the region (the last part needs to be added based on the I've provided above). @MSchreiber: wp:IDHT can be quite disruptive.Alexikoua (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

"Increasing"? Where is the data that Greeks are having many babaies above the 2 or more rate. Makes no sense. Some people returning does NOT equate a birthrate increase or that of the community whose numbers like other of the same relgion in Albania have declined.Resnjari (talk) 01:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, if you want to repeat that even if nothing at all supports it - do what feels best for you. It means though that admin oversight will be brought on in order to check the situtation if you try to add SYNTH/OR personal "conclusions" in the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

And admin oversighit will also be brought in if you or your team try to ram things through by force. Don't even think about it. Khirurg (talk) 01:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm cool with admin oversight. Its long overdue frankly, espcially for this article.Resnjari (talk) 01:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@MSchreiber: Yet again I've stated that after 2010 there is no longer a demographic decrease. Even the sources you provided were published from 2002... You need to read the sources before making such controversial comments and placing and further wp:SYNTH OR.Alexikoua (talk) 01:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

An increase, from a level that was already low. The source does not indicate that Greeks have a high fertility rate in Albania or that of the Orthodox population as a whole. Or that there has been a reversal and Greeks now are having many babies. Some people returning does not indicate a large community if the base of the population had already been in deep decline for a long while. Also, just because some people have come back does not mean that previous decades should not be covered in the article about the bulk of the community migrated or that other ethnic groups have claimed Greek identity "Northern Epirote" to obtain Greek citizenship for economic opportunities or genuine sentiments in that regard (there is RS for this).Resnjari (talk) 02:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

#1 Migration and poverty : toward better opportunities for the poor (2010) has large section about permanent migration out of Albania and then in the section about temporal migration (p.75 - which you cite) says: Although the number of temporary migrants going to nearby Greece has dropped significantly over the past few years, Greece remains by far the main destination of these temporary flows. #2 Bouras (2020) (includes Rapti (2014)): At the same time, the lack of motivation coupled with the massive influx of many minority students in Greece during the past decade led to a very small number of young Greek language learners being interested in getting into minority education. However, in recent years, due to the economic crisis in Greece, members of the Greek minority returned to Albania and re-opened two schools in the prefecture of Agioi Saranta in villages that had been closed due to the "mass exit" to Greece (Rapti 2014), the integration of these children being hampered by structural factors linked to the Albanian educational system (Vathi et al. 2016). (includes #3) From #1 #2 (includes #3) you can't put forward a conclusion that says After 2010 there is no longer demographic decrease of the Greek community @Resnjari: note how Alexikoua in Bouras (2020) cut the quote in half. Admin oversight might quickly solve all of this.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:37, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber:, about admins knowing of the problem with that partiuclar editor, yeah they were aware of it a decade ago [6], not much if anything will come it, that's my view though.Resnjari (talk) 03:15, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber:, good find. One thing though to keep in mind, you can find as many RS possible, but additions will be labelled POV or other. If Wikipedia was a person and had constipation, this article would embody it. Take care. Best.Resnjari (talk) 02:59, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I believe a lot in community involvement. Remember that if it wasn't for community involvement (a few months ago), which stopped the edit-warring that was attempted in order to remove the POV tag, none of the many problems in this article would even begin to be addressed. @Resnjari: I have asked two very experienced editors if they have the time to take a look.[7]--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:24, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber:, i've noticed your an optimistic person, you see good in people. Don’t know if being long term on wiki many change part of that perspective. Community involvement may start to resolve the situation, but note that most admins are not acquainted with this topic and may not want to get involved.Resnjari (talk) 03:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Though recycling arguments that have been answered isn't the best approach, it's good per AGF to provide a summary on how the proposed text is not an improvement compared to the current version:

Caption text

Maleschreiber's proposal	inline citation	issues
In the 2019 municipal & local assembly elections, the UHRP - as part of the Democratic Party coalition - called for the Greek minority to abstain from the elections, while the other party of the Greek minority MEGA participated. A part of the Greek minority abstained.	"Elections in Albania: Himara abstains". HuffPost Greece (in Greek). "(Μια μεγάλη ημέρα αποδείχθηκε η Κυριακή για τον ελληνισμό της Χιμάρας. Καθώς η ψηφοφορία για την εκλογή του κυβερνητικού υποψηφίου δημάρχου έληξε, η συμμετοχή του ελληνισμού κινήθηκε σε πολύ χαμηλά επίπεδα.) "participation of the Greeks in Himara reach very low levels"	wp:OR, source states "very low levels of participation" not simply that "a part abstained".
The steady demographic decline of the Greek minority has led ethnic Greek elites to widen their political base	Pavlou, Miltos (2002)	wp:OR This steady demographic decline obviously refers to a specific period before 2002 (year of publication), not to an ongoing process, especially when members of the Greek community returned back to Albania after 2010
Goro was re-elected, while former mayor Bolanos who ran as an independent candidate for the position of municipal councillor got 64 votes in total.[6] MEGA's candidate for mayor of Finiq got the first place in the municipal elections, while nationwide the party got 3,028 votes.[7][8] He was one of the two ethnic Greek mayors to be elected - the other one is Dhimitraq Toli of Dropull with a total of 2,451 votes.	Selective use of primary sources on local-level results (by state authority that published the results)	wp:CHERRY, wp:POV, selective use of PRIMARY, while Greek candidates participated in other municipalities too (Konispol, Permet etc.)
In 2017, it managed to elected one representative under the coalition of the Democratic Party (PD).	Lansford, Tom (2017). Political Handbook of the World 2016-2017	wp:POV, this statement ignores that most of the Greek candidates joined a variety of parties. Nevertheless that's already covered in the article (In 2004, there were five ethnic Greek members in the Albanian Parliament, and two ministers in the Albanian cabinet,[156] the same number of parliament members were elected in the latest elections (2017) too.

Conclusion: the current form of the article deals with the above issues especially in terms of neutrality compared to the above proposal, which are highly problematic as explained above.Alexikoua (talk) 10:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

These are irrelevant to what I've put forward in terms of bibliography. About the last two points: 1. the fact that "Greek candidates participated in elections in other municipalities too" doesn't change the fact that only two mayors who are part of the Greek minority were elected 2. the fact that candidates of Greek origin were elected in the 2017 parliamentary elections (not because of "ethnic politics", but because of their role in their parties), doesn't change the fact the Greek minority party managed to elect only one candidate. One doesn't negate the other - and it's already part of the article that there are members of parliament of Greek origin, so nothing is even being ommitted here. All that's left then is your refusal to include actual results of the political parties of the Greek minority. About participation in elections in Himara: it's POV to rely on one Greek newspaper for a WP:PEACOCK claim. Of course the easiest way to deal with participation is to highlight the percentage difference from 2015 to 2019 - like in many other articles which electoral results. That way, we won't need enter into a discussion about whether those who didn't vote are "few" or "many" - that is how participation is noted in electoral results in every article.

Now, we come to the point which you've skipped 4-5 times and have chosen to not reply to repeatedly. Here is the bibliography which you have used in order to claim that "there is no longer demographic decrease of the Greek community":

1. 1 Migration and poverty : toward better opportunities for the poor (2010) has large section about permanent migration out of Albania and then in the section about temporal migration (p.75 - which you cite) says: Although the number of temporary migrants going to nearby Greece has dropped significantly over the past few years, Greece remains by far the main destination of these temporary flows. #2 Bouras (2020) (includes Rapti (2014)): At the same time, the lack of motivation coupled with the massive influx of many minority students in Greece during the past decade led to a very small number of young Greek language learners being interested in getting into minority education. However, in recent years, due to the economic crisis in Greece, members of the Greek minority returned to Albania and re-opened two schools in the prefecture of Agioi Saranta in villages that had been closed due to the "mass exit" to Greece (Rapti 2014), the integration of these children being hampered by structural factors linked to the Albanian educational system (Vathi et al. 2016). (includes #3) From #1 #2 (includes #3) you can't put forward a conclusion that says After 2010 there is no longer demographic decrease of the Greek community. The WP:STONEWALLING and refusal to even attempt to explain how the above justifies your claims to me indicates that admin oversight is needed.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

The current text in the article is fine and in agreement to the sources (don't pretend I've proposed a change, this simply refutes your claim about the so-called ongoing demographic decrease based on source from... 2002). From the above the only part that has some merit is that out of the 5 ethnic Greek MPs, one comes from the Human Rights Party (we should also include the correspondent information of the rest 4 though).Alexikoua (talk) 13:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Bibliography doesn't support any of your claims. If you want to WP:STONEWALL, do so - but it just confirms why this article is tagged. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Inline citation indeed supports that there are 5 ethnic Greek MPs in the Albanian government right now. I really don't understand what you mean. You agree on the addition of some detail for each member? Alexikoua (talk) 20:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

If they choose not to identify as "ethnic Greek MPs" we will not put that label on them - "of Greek origin" will do. Much more has been presented in bibliography about I suggested to change in the article, so those changes must proceed if you don't have any answer as to why they shouldn't be included.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:STONEWALL, in the form of intellectual dishonesty, is using sources form 2002 to try to provento the world a "steady demographic decline" in 2020. Khirurg (talk) 17:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Is there a source that puts forward the opposite? Because what Alexikoua cited, as sure as the sky is, does not put forward anything about a "demographic reversal".--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice try to shift the burden of proof, but no luck. If you want to claim "stead demographic decline as of 2020, the burden of proof is on you. Khirurg (talk) 19:02, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I doubt if a source from 2002 can predict an ongoing process.... However, Rapti (2020) is a fresh new source: However, in recent years, due to the economic crisis in Greece, members of the Greek minority returned to Albania and re-opened two schools in the prefecture of Agioi Saranta in villages that had been closed due to the "mass exit" to Greece. No wonder the article already mentions this : the Greek population has diminished because of heavy migration. However after the Greek economic crisis (2009), members of the Greek minority returned to Albania. Alexikoua (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

• Still at issue 1? When will the process of solving the many POV issues end? When will this article be tag-free? On the issue above, I again agree with Maleschreiber. There is no RS saying the number of the Greeks in Albania is as much it was in 1990 or 1995. OR again is not allowed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see this claim inside the article. Everything is backed up RS.Alexikoua (talk) 15:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what you are on about, but the article says that the Greek population has diminished because of heavy migration. However after the Greek economic crisis (2009), members of the Greek minority returned to Albania. That means that the population reduction has not been undone, and that the return is not an ongoing process. If you do not understand it due to any English grammar issue, it is not my fault. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The source reads: "However, in recent years, due to the economic crisis in Greece, members of the Greek minority returned to Albania ". I can't understand why this should be removed.Alexikoua (talk) 21:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Who did say that it should be removed? Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The text proposed by Mschreiber.Alexikoua (talk) 14:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

The text proposed by Maleschreiber uses RS that concern elections. Your sources on immigration to and back from Greece do not even mention elections. How can you say that the return of some people changed election issues, when your sources do not even mention elections? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:23, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991:The changes can continue either way. If someone reverts them by invoking a "no consensus" argument when they don't even have sources that back up what they're putting forward, they can be reported. Although I would prefer a large community involvement because on Proto-Greek language that really stopped the WP:FRINGE theories which were being put forward.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, @Maleschreiber: Since no RS has been provided to back the opposite, then there is no policy-based reason to not add your proposal to the article. The first sentece should be worded sth like "In a 2002 Council of Europe report....", to highlight the year and the instituion that reports the situation. What is the next POV issue you raise? Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:56, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

If you two are thinking of ramming through any changes by brute-force tag-team edit warring, that would be a very bad idea. Khirurg (talk) 17:11, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

After months of recycling virtually no valid arguments the tag can definitely go.Alexikoua (talk) 10:40, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

No, the tag guideline says that the tag stays as long as the discussion is ongoing. It would not be a months-long discussion, if you brought sth other than OR opinions here. Since we are at it, you have been editing Cham Albanians for years, but you have never tried to remove the POV tag from it. Why not a problem for you there, but a problem here? Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Ktrimi: Sure, I believe that multiple sections in that article are fine. You are welcome to comment in the correspondent tp.Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

You know very well that I did not mention that article here to express any concern with its condition, but to point out to your lack of consistence with different articles and, as a result, POVs. @Maleschreiber: why do not make the addition as suggested above? Also, what are your other concerns with this article's POV issues? They soon should be addressed, as the article should not stay forever tagged. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua:: Some statistics about births and deaths in Dropull, Finiq and Himare for the period 2011-2019 can be found here, showing clear continuation of demographic decline, especially Dropull. Even in the case of Himare, I believe that the higher number of births is due to the non-Orthodox population which has been included in the municipality since the 2015 administrative reform. --Surnamename1995 (talk) 10:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Massive undiscussed changes

Alltan (talk · contribs) WP:BOLDly moved most of this article's content to Greeks in Albania, without any discussion and only trivial explanations in the edit summary. However, such massive changes need discussion and consensus. Gutting the article with short edit summaries (Does not belong here) is not going to cut it. What exactly is Alltan's reasoning for whether something belongs here or not? While I do agree that some parts could be moved, this needs to be discussed in the talkpage and not ham-handedly gutted. What I find particularly objectionable is the split of the History section between this article and Greeks in Albania. Alltan moved everything up to and including to the Ottoman period to Greeks in Albania, left the period from 1912 to the end of the Cold War here [8], and then moved the "Human rights" section to Greeks in Albania right after the Ottoman period. So the result is this article begins ex nihilo at 1912, ends abruptly with the end of the Cold War, while the History section of Greeks in Albania jumps from the Ottoman period to the present day, skipping everything in between [9]. This is the definition of bad editing. By the way, if anyone is thinking of the usual brute-force edit-warring to impose their version, be aware that my revert is in accordance with WP:BRD, and instead of reverting again I will just go straight to WP:ANI, just so there are no misunderstandings. Khirurg (talk) 05:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Your comment in the last sentence is not constructive at all, and does not help your discussion with Alltan and anyone else who might be interested in this discussion. Not to mention that you are the one recently blocked for edit warring in February, not Alltan. Better focus on content. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Don't want to mention that I also know a certain user who also reverts without reaching consensus. AlexBachmann (talk) 00:28, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment A bit of "historical" background: One of the many reasons why the article is tagged as POV has to do with a specific editor always insisting that the article should have a section about "prehistory and ancient history" which starts from ... myths about Troy. Nitsiakos (2010) explains that Northern Epirus does not consist in itself a geographical unity. The name of this area was initially a diplomatic term and later a political one Hence this article shouldn't cover any era before the late Ottoman period because no "Northern Epirus" existed before then. The same is true for countless such terms including "Kosovo". All of these terms are geopolitical constructs, not historical entities. Hence, subsections 2.1/2.2 shouldn't be part of the article. For some other sections, I think that there's always room for debate about whether they should be discussed here or at Greeks in Albania. Section 4 regarding minority rights feels out of place in this article and should probably be moved there. PS If there was a genuine attempt to fix specific issues which were always blocked by just one editor, I would most probably consider a removal of the tag as well. I think that most editors are mature enough to realize that it's in the best interest of the entire community and readership to maintain articles up to a basic level of neutrality.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
• Since I am here, I am taking some time to improve the article. The POV tag can't stay forever. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:31, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

These are the issues highlighted by me back in 2020: The article discusses the problems with the minority's rights, but does not very much do so about the rights it enjoys and the considerable contribution Greeks well-integrated within Albanian society have given to the country. There is a section named "The Northern Epirote issue at present" that does not mention a "Northern Epirote issue". The subsection dedicated to the 2011 census mentions the minority's concerns but it should also mention the Alb government's concerns (and some other Albs' too) that the minority's numbers could get inflated in several ways by the Greek government and/or members of the minority itself. The history section itself has many issues. For instance, the "Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus (1914)" subsection describes the conflict as merely a 'Orthodox Greeks vs Muslim Albanians" thing. I will try to solve them in the next few days. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

These, as well as other issues must be addressed. I further trimmed down the history section. Alltan (talk) 13:56, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Some information on pro-Greek revolts and cultural activities in the Ottoman period shouod be added for background context. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how relevant that is to the Northern Epirote subject. The Pro-Greek revolts of say the 1870s were anti-Ottoman in nature, while the Northern Epirus Autonomous Republic was founded after the end of Ottoman rule in Epirus and it saw as the Albanian government as its "oppresor", not the Ottoman Turks. The section about the Millet system should be replaced with a section dealing with the idea of "Greek land occupied by Albania" and how that evolved into the known political concept. Alltan (talk) 15:17, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

If you can do that, it would benefit the History section a lot. How the concept evolved etc. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:49, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

(unindent) Giving readers background is important. For example, the fact that parts of southern Epirus were given to Greece by the Ottoman Empire in 1881 should not be removed. Since the term first appeared in 1886, the Ottoman section should stay to give the readers some background. I remember in earlier discussions there was no objection to the Ottoman period being mentioned. Khirurg (talk) 18:41, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

• I'm not opposed to the inclusion of a section about the late Ottoman period which in effect is the background for the post-1913 era. A few more points:
  • Is everyone ok with moving the subsection "Minority zone" to the first section about "Definition"? I think that the concept and the debates which surround it are better suited for this section. Section 4 & subsections should probably be moved to Greeks in Albania, but a summary can be kept here.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:48, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with all points. Alltan (talk) 01:25, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  I don't have an issue moving the "Minority zone" to the definition (along with the Protocol of Corfu infobox), but I think the "Education", "Official Positions" and "Incidents" should stay here. The "Education" section describes the situation in the interwar years and hence is relevant, the "Official Positions" is definitely relevant also. The Minority representation section can be moved, while the 2011 census section can be moved to the demographics section here. Khirurg (talk) 02:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  By the way, if material from here is moved to Greeks in Albania (e.g. the "Minority Representation" section), the lede of that article will need to be modified. Khirurg (talk) 03:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

If material is moved, then it is reasonable to expect the lead to summarize them. "Official positions" can be moved to the section about definition if it stays in this article. "Education" pertains more to the education rights of the group which makes it more relevant for 'Greeks in Albania' like in other articles e.g. Albanians_in_Serbia#Education because if you refer to the status of education in a region, then you necessarily need to describe education in all languages spoken in the specific region, not just the minority language.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:16, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I don't have time to expand the issue today, hence I just added a relevant source. Djordjević & Zaimi (2019) explain how the concept of minority zones is largely non-applicable since the 2017 Law on Protection of National Minorities. pp. 57-58 on the current law, pp-58-59 on the importance of up-to-date census data for the application of the law. This latter point will be added in later edits.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox map

The infobox map detail needs to be more accurate because "Approximate extent of largest concentration of Greeks in Northern Epirus" refers to claimed numbers of Greeks but it doesn't acknowledge that Albanians live and they make up the majority in most of the "green area".Alltan (talk) 15:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

It also doesn't claim that Greeks were a majority in any of the area, even though they clearly were in much of it (Saranda, Himara, etc...). It could be rephrased to "Areas with Greek presence in Northern Epirus in the early 20th century" or something like that, but ideally you should take this up with the map's creator. Note that it is sourced. Khirurg (talk) 15:27, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Latest round

I think that the latest round of removals-reverts-counterreverts is unnecessary. The general agreement/status quo is that events after 1912 do fall under the scope of this article. If a specific source which discusses Greeks in Albania, uses or doesn't use the term "North Epirus" doesn't make the use of the specific source more or less legitimate for the post-1912 period. We wouldn't say that a source which discusses events about Cham Albanians in the 1930s should be used in the article Chameria only if it mentions the term Chameria. In any case, some of the sources which were removed do use the term in general, although Alltan may have checked only the specific quotes which were cited. This might have been part of the misunderstanding and I think that it's best if @Alltan: reverts himself.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Actually the recently removed text is based on sources focused on the context of Northern Epirus (De Rapper, Clogg, Dimitropoulos etc.), if "Northern Epirus" isn't repeated on each paragraph then this can be fixed by making the necessary addition.Alexikoua (talk) 21:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)