Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 11

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Election results removed

Elections results can't be removed and called "speculations". There also a BLP discussion about Kacifas in which it has been explained that content about him cannot be treated with BLP as main point of reference and soon will be entirely out of the scope of BLP. Content about him should be discussed and restored. I have placed the POV tag until these issues are resolved.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

No, it doesn't work like that. You can't deface the entire article because of 1-2 things. Besides you've already tagged the sections. I'm starting to get the impression you are using tags as some kind of pressure tactic. Khirurg (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

It's not 1-2 things. Alexikoua removed election results of the two minority parties and wrote in his summary per BRD so far just only speculations and source precision HuffPo as addressed in tp. What is the speculation here? And also, HuffPo doesn't correlate between Greek voters abstaining and Goro getting re-elected. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You cited a table with the total sum of all municipal elections countrywide. This table ignores the fact that the Greek parties were part of wider coalitions in most municipalities, not to mention that several Greek candidates were with the DP or SP, like in Dropull who won the municipality (so you are portraying that Dropul was non-Greek). I suggest you begin using wp:SECONDARY and wp:ACADEMIC. The way your are using wp:PRIMARY isn't appropriate.Alexikoua (talk) 01:09, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is that related to In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes ? What I've written doesn't imply anything about the total number of Greek voters and it doesn't stop you from adding anything about Dropull. I'll start a discussion at WP:DRN just like I did with the BLP about Kacifas. Discussing the issue with the community truly clarified it. As before on BLP I'll accept the decisions of the community. The tag should be restored because now there are several unresolved disputes across sections.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I've suggested to follow wp:PRIMARY. By the way most Greek candidates preferred to join a "non-Greek" party [[1]]. Off course the election results can be added in a neutral way based on secondary sources. Finiq was won by MEGA, Dropul by PDorSD (but still an ethnic Greek).Alexikoua (talk) 01:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

No, it doesn't say anything about most Greek candidates only a vague It is also characteristic that the Greek candidates are claiming their election by asking for the support of a large Albanian party. which refers to all candidates. It also says that Until the early hours of the morning, the Greek-Albanian border was crossed by about 120 buses with expatriate voters and hundreds of cars. Maybe we should add that, it's an interesting detail about the demographics of the voters. I'm posting the full quotes so you can correct GT whenever necessary. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:48, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

what does here googletranslate; Χαρακτηριστικό είναι, επίσης, ότι οι Έλληνες υποψήφιοι διεκδικούν την εκλογή τους ζητώντας τη στήριξη κάποιου μεγάλου αλβανικού κόμματος.

No wonder you can not find any secondary source saying that those numbers reflect Greek minoriry percentages. The bus information can  go to the municipal election article.Alexikoua (talk) 08:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC) .

• But I haven't said anything about the numbers of Greek minority percentages. I'm trying to explain all along that In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes which is referenced by the election results page of the Central Electoral Commission says nothing about the demographics of the minority. You can't infer anything else by what is written other than PBDNJ got 0.95% and MEGA 0.2% of the vote. How do you think that what you removed although it is referenced can be thought to mean anything else than what is written? --Maleschreiber (talk) 10:48, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Yet again: follow wp:PRIMARY, else this will be reverted. Tag playing isn't an argument. As I've proposed you also need to be careful when reading a source. In the 1995 municipal election the Greek minority candidates participated with the two major Albanian parties. You are still in OR& POV. Alexikoua (talk) 11:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

• Ok, I'll ask again - and I'll also ask for the opinion of someone uninvolved: How is the referenced (election results as published by the Central Electoral Commission of Albania), verified & accurate sentence In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes which you reverted related to what Greek candidates in general did in the 1995 local elections? I don't understand why these two topics are related and therefore I don't understand why you would remove it and why it is "POV and OR".--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Maleschreiber there is something we have forgotten entirely until now. As Khirurg so eloquently likes to point out, this region is stated by the page to span all the way up to Prespa and include quite populous places like Korcha. Yet, why is discussion of election results limited to places where the Greek irredentists are strongest, i.e. Himara, Dropull, yet regions such as Korcha which were the cradle of Albanian nationalism are not discussed, leaving the reader to assume they are just like Dropull?--Calthinus (talk) 15:16, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Calthinus' point about balance and due weight is important. Can we not get all the electoral information? Surely, that would satisfy everyone. El_C 15:29, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. I've said that adding the results of 2015 of the two minority parties doesn't cause any exclusion of electoral results of 1995 or Greek candidates that participated outside those two parties like in Dropull.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

What percentage did these two parties get, Maleschreiber? Never mind, I see it. El_C 15:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Addressed to all: Could this information in the way it is written imply anything else about the numbers of Greek voters in general or Greek candidates in general?--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Maleschreiber To answer your question, I categorically oppose speaking of Greek candidates. This can unfortunately come off as ethnic innuendo. There are ethnic Greek candidates who run for irredentist parties, and there are also Greeks who are Socialists, and this is not as some of the less generous might claim, necessarily some sort of ploy because they think this is "best" for the Greek irredentist movement but instead many believe in a united Albania where Greeks are respected as an ethnic minority, and prefer the ideals and governance of the Socialists. --Calthinus (talk) 16:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I understand your concern and you are right in highlighting that we should report their political choices without adding them under another framework. I was referring to cases in which the candidate in question himself chooses to promote his candidacy as such, but if candidates don't choose to promote their politics as such no need for us to do it for them. Does In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes carry any implication?--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, their base has shrunk (emigration, low birthrate, decline in support for irredentism or even ethnic politicking as other issues become more relevant and Albania stabilized). It was once 4% nationally.--Calthinus (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

About the 2015 municipal elections a NPOV version will be: "Greek minority candidates in general joined one of the two main Albanian parties, while both MEGA&UHRP participated only in the elections in 4 municipalities (out of 61) and countrywide they received ...%. Irregularities and attacks against UHRP property have been reported [[2]][[3]].Alexikoua (talk) 18:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

On first glance I'm fine with this. --Calthinus (talk) 18:55, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

We don't know what Greek minority candidates did in general, some even ran as independent like Bolanos. The discussion should reflect that, but I'm ok with writing also about Greek minority candidates outside the two parties of the community. Edited version: In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes. Also, other Greek candidates ran as members of the coalitions of Albanian parties or as independent candidates. Any changes to that?--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:37, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

"Also" -> "Additionally". Other than that looks good. --Calthinus (talk) 20:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Uh, not quite. It should be mentioned that the two parties only ran in 4 municipalities, as well as the irregularities and attacks that Alexikoua mentioned. Khirurg (talk) 21:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

They didn't ran candidates in 4 municipalities. They managed to elect at least one councillor in 5 municipalities, but they ran candidates in many more municipalities. Of those ~14,771 votes of PBDNJ in 2015, 655 (0.97% of the total vote in the municipality) were in Shkodër and 369 in Bulqizë. I don't think you should be relying on news reports about electoral results. The results have been published by CEC and are available to anyone. All elections' articles cite results from Central Electoral Commission sites, not from news reports. I didn't add in my version anything about minor irregularities because they're not related to this community directly but to the country in general. If something happened in Roskovec (random pick) it's not related to the Greek community. Also, in terms of neutrality we would then have to write that these were among the most stable electoral procedures in the country to date. But neither is related to this community or the scope of the section which is the Greek community's representation in politics. If there is a specific incident that happened in Dropull or Finiq, sure, add it as a separate account later, it would definitely be part of the article's scope. --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, in terms of neutrality we would then have to write that these were among the most stable electoral procedures in the country to date. You're kidding right? "among the most stable electoral procedures to date" means nothing. I could just as easily argue that we should include that Albania hasn't yet had a trouble-free election and is classified as a hybrid regime by the Democracy Index, and ranks 79th, one of the lowest places in Europe. Khirurg (talk) 05:46, 2 May 2020 (UTC

This is a provocation. The reality is that all Balkan countries have issues with freedom of the press. Yes Albania is worse than Greece, and Albania has issues. But see also the spate of attacks on reporters in Greece drawing severe rebukes from Reporters Without Borders, where reporters are attacked by mobs on Lesvos [4], and Greece was ranked 65th in 2019, in the midst of a repeal of a law limiting police interference with free speech by the Mitsotakis government [5]; of course the gov't-sponsored smear campaign against Marin Mema -- a Christian! -- as someone with links to jihadists while he was investigating the Cham issue. Do not confuse Albania with Turkey, you know better than that.--Calthinus (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Nice attempt at a red herring and whataboutism there, trying to switch the subject by attacking Greece. But you cannot rebut the facts, and it is a fact that Albania is classified as a "hybrid regime" and ranked very low by the Democracy index, with major law and order, rule of law, property rights, and freedom of the press issues. And I wasn't talking about freedom of the press, I was talking about electoral issues. Fact is, Albania has never had completely free and fair elections, or even a proper census. Oh and by the way, Greece is ranked 39th, not 69th [6], so yeah, not even close. Do not confuse Greece with Albania, you know better than that. Khirurg (talk) 20:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Why are we talking about the Democracy Index? That does not directly correlate to press freedom. Instead, let's talk about the rating of Reporters Without Borders: Press freedom sharply eroded in Greece during the economic and financial crisis of 2010–2015, passing from the 35th place in 2009 in Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index to the 99th place in 2014, well below all Western Balkans countries as well as states with repressive media policies such as Gabon, Kuwait or Liberia. Greece is today the EU member state "where journalism and the media face their most acute crisis".. Great! So, now that, newsflash, we all know that Greece was quite recently well below all Western Balkans countries as well as states with repressive media policies such as Gabon, Kuwait or Liberia, we can move on from your crude attempt to auto-reject any source coming out of Albania, as that would backfire very fast.--Calthinus (talk) 23:42, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Why are you talking about Greece? Why are you trying to deflect and change the subject? Northern Epirus is in Albania, so stick to the subject. The subject is the election, and it is a fact that Albania has never had trouble-free elections. That's where the Democracy Index come in. But of course you can't rebut that, so you are trying to change the subject and attack Greece instead. Classic whataboutism. Khirurg (talk) 01:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I skimmed your original response to Malo and misunderstood it, apologies. I thought you were discussing Albanian sources. --Calthinus (talk) 01:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• All I'm saying here is that general irregularities that are out of the scope of this article, probably shouldn't be discussed here. If there is an incident related to the Greek community, you can still write about it - nobody's disputing that.--Maleschreiber (talk) 06:17, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

There is no reason to hide events strictly related with the procedure. These are part of the context and should be provided in order to secure neutrality (irregularities, destruction of ethnic Greek property etc. are part of the same story). The scandal about the new electoral districts should be also included, as PD's statement[[7]].Alexikoua (talk) 08:03, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Using PRIMARY material "alone" is problematic in the interpretation of the result as stated in policy. In our case primary source are the result tables published by the responsible authority:

Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[d] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.

I see no reason why this event should be exempted from this. We have secondary sources to describe the event. Moreover, interpreting a primary source can lead to wrong result. Here MSchreiber indirectly declared that a Greek minority resides in Bulqizë.Alexikoua (talk) 10:50, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

No, I didn't imply that there are Greeks in Bulqizë. I mentioned that PBDNJ ran candidates in Bulqizë as an example that proves that your claim that they only ran candidates in 4 municipalities was wrong. In fact, they ran candidates in most municipalities. Also, since Greek reports have been proven wrong, it would be better to not make claims with reports from Greek media which are written for an audience in Greece. Again, I'm posting the full quote here so you can correct it: Albanian-Muslim villages have now been added to the two municipalities with a purely Greek population, Himara and Konispoli, with the obvious aim of altering the election result. Since when is Konispol is Cham area to which were added a couple of small mixed villages (@Calthinus: correct me here if I'm wrong) in the new municipal division a purely Greek area? (Himara isn't either but I think that Konispol is a nail-on-the-spot example of bad reporting from this news agency) Add any instance you want about irregularities that are related to the Greek community specifically. We don't have to reach an agreement about that, it should be from a reliable source with accurate reporting though and shouldn't contain extreme mistakes about basic facts of the region. I'll add the agreed part shortly and you can add any reports about irregularities when you feel that you have found appropriate sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Accusations of WP:OWN are pretty surprising given that your involvement in this page predates Maleschreiber's by about a decade, Alexikoua. Regarding Konispol, yes, the area is almost entirely Sunni Muslim Cham Albanians, both the ones that were expelled from Greece and the descendants of those who lived there before the 1940s. Konispol is south of the ethnic Greek region of Vurg, but despite its "Greek-sounding" but actually Slavic name (Pol'- as in Poland meaning field), it is and has long been homogeneously Albanian. --Calthinus (talk) 17:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Maleschreiber The best way forward is if someone who knows a lot about the topic of recent Albanian elections make an updated rewrite of the section, and propose it. Nobody is going to have the time to follow extended in-depth discussions with banal misunderstandings and etc like the one this thread has become. That said, as you asked, I looked, and as seen in the diff[8], Alexikoua's revert of you did not restore any "excluded info" but instead deleted the following sourced text : In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes. Additionally, other Greek candidates ran as members of the coalitions of Albanian parties or as independent candidates. In 2015, Jorgo Goro, supported by the Socialist Party of Albania became the new mayor of Himara. Goro who himself had acquired Greek citizenship as a member of the minority declared in his election campaign that "there are no Greeks in Himara" and that he had changed his name from "Gjergj" to "Jorgo". The Greek state revoked his citizenship in 2017 on grounds of him "acting against national interests". --Calthinus (talk) 01:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

You need to avoid wp:OWN, your opinion that irregularities about the specific election should not be included there is just your personal opinion. In Kosnispol municipality there is also a number of Greek villages. There is nothing wrong about the sources. By the way why the events about Goro's opponent should be an exception isn't that POV? Alexikoua (talk) 14:46, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

It also appears that there is a problem with your translation, the source states that the municipalities of Himara&Konispol are now much larger thus Muslim-Albanian settlements are found.Alexikoua (talk) 14:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

The source is a Greek newspaper which like the previous Greek newspaper (about PBDNJ only having candidates in 4 municipalities) you quoted gets everything wrong. Konispol didn't get Cham villages in 2015, it is Cham municipality that was enlarged to include Xarrë, which also is mostly Albanian. From that data, the Greek newspaper you quoted concluded that Albanian-Muslim villages have now been added to the two municipalities with a purely Greek population, Himara and Konispoli, with the obvious aim of altering the election result. From now on, quote only reliable sources - preferably not news reports from newspapers in Greece with factually wrong claims.

Also, you reverted an edit which implemented what was agreed and explained in the summary that Irregularities can be added as a separate issue whenever anyone feels that they have RS to support it.. But you still reverted it and said You need to avoid wp:OWN, your opinion that irregularities about the specific election should not be included there is just your personal opinion.. In the most literal of terms, this is the exact opposite of what I said. Also, why was a section that was agreed removed? I hope that this discussion resumes when there is ground for consensus to address the issues that have been raised. Ktrimi's tagging of this article seems more and more justified. --Maleschreiber (talk) 15:15, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Actually this is your personal opinion since you need consensus that for the exclusion of information about this very event (irregularities, attacks, Greek candidates joined the Albanian parties etc-the last supported by 3 RS). The election result can't be in separate section we need to avoid POV. It's essential to have the story about the specific event without interruptions.Alexikoua (talk) 15:29, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

A compact version without POV issues would be the following:

In the 2015 municipal elections Greek candidates ran in general as members of the two main Albanian parties,[[9]] (οι έλληνες υποψήφιοι διεκδικούν την εκλογή τους ζητώντας τη στήριξη κάποιου μεγάλου αλβανικού κόμματος.) while the two Greek minority parties got a total of 1,25% countrywide.

No wonder in Dropull the two Greek parties had a very low percentage.Alexikoua (talk) 15:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

The source doesn't support that. It says that Greek candidates in order to get elected ask for the support of big Albanian parties. The quote: Greek candidates seek election by asking for the support of some big Albanian party. It then goes to mention in which municipalities this happened. Nothing there to support your claim that "in general" or that it refers to them actually being candidates of Albanian parties, which as a claim also excludes the fact the Greek candidates also ran as independent canddiates. From now just quote the sources as they are, don't interpret them - but only add the full quotes. Also, because so far you've made several claims about election results that were simply wrong I would like you to quote to the exact result figure that verifies each claim you make from the Electoral Commission page. I'm saying this because in Dropull, Greek parties got around ~17%. In a field of several candidates, that is not a very low percentage. From now on, I will not reply to any claim about figures which is not supported by a link to the results themselves. It is hard to have to constantly verify statistical claims because no source is provided.

I didn't create a separate section ("section" here referred to the two sentences we agreed) and I didn't exclude any information. I explicitly said that Irregularities can be added as a separate issue whenever anyone feels that they have RS to support it. What you removed was agreed on this talkpage. No dispute resolution can go on if what is agreed is removed. It also can't go on if you repeatedly claim that other editors have made claims that they never even implied and repeatedly refute but you still keep bringing them up. It is very difficult to hold a discussion when I say one thing and you then reply to me as if I have the said the opposite. In this case, I have repeated maybe 4 or 5 times that irregularities about issues specifically related to the Greek community are welcome and should be added with RS, but you keep saying that to me that your opinion that irregularities about the specific election should not be included there is just your personal opinion. . You're literally claiming that I have said the opposite of what I keep repeating.

I added to the article the following: Additionally, other Greek candidates ran as members of the coalitions of Albanian parties or as independent candidates as was agreed but you removed that and now you're saying in this talkpage that *I* need consensus for the exclusion of information about this very event (irregularities, attacks, Greek candidates joined the Albanian parties etc-the last supported by 3 RS). But I was the one who added that in the first place and you are the one who removed it by saying that I need consensus for my edit...which added what you now are claiming that I "excluded". @Calthinus: can that edit be interpreted as an "exclusion" of that information? Here on this talkpage the exact opposite of what happened is being claimed. I think that admin oversight is needed here. @El C: Can you please take a look at the above? I really don't understand why this is happening. I'm really trying to have this discussion, but it's very hard to move to dispute resolution when what I'm saying is interpreted as the opposite of what it is and my edits are reverted and then explained away as not including something which very explicitly they included. I'll be taking a break for the rest of the day and I'll continue tomorrow.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

"Dropull, Greek parties got around ~17%. In a field of several candidates, that is not a very low percentage." I'm sorry? Dropull consists entirely by the members of the ethnic Greek minority (that was recognized even by the "people's republic" regime), off course this proves that the Greek candidates, in general, preferred a non-Greek party. No wonder the sources provided conclude with this statements.Alexikoua (talk) 15:27, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the need for precision is important. One must do their best to represent views and material accurately. Anyway, if no agreement is reached, the way forward might be to run an RfC with a clear question — as I've said recently elsewhere, outside input is gold on Wikipedia. Once it is properly closed, consensus will be codified accordingly. The status quo ante version is the version that ought to be displayed while the dispute remains unresolved. El_C 00:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

With all due respect, RfCs in this topic area are hell. Especially when most outside users don't know enough about Albanian elections... --Calthinus (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe so, but an RfC is the principal procedure that Wikipedia provides for intractable content disputes, with all its faults notwithstanding. But if you can come to an agreement without it, all the better. If, however, you have reached an impasse on the article talk page, then a dispute resolution request is your next step. El_C 01:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

El_C Until very recently, Khirurg was technically already in a separate DRN convo that I am not involved with, which was closed as he did not participate [10]. So I do not foresee that being a solution either.--Calthinus (talk) 01:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, a dispute resolution request, like an RfC, is the only way forward if you've otherwise reached an impasse. El_C 01:33, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

A DRN on the elections section specifically between Maleschreiber and Alexikoua could be possibly useful. I would sit out, Maleschreiber's understanding of current Albanian politics is probably more sophisticated than my own. --Calthinus (talk) 01:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Your version has serious OR issues as I've addressed. There was no "agreement" as you claim. Source reads "Χαρακτηριστικό είναι, επίσης, ότι οι έλληνες υποψήφιοι διεκδικούν την εκλογή τους ζητώντας τη στήριξη κάποιου μεγάλου αλβανικού κόμματος.". This needs to be stated. Also, the source doesn't mention "then" which municipalities exactly, but its a general statement about ethnic Greek candidates in the elections. Moreover, "an Albanian party" doesn't equal to a " coalition of Albanian party". There is no reason to change the meaning: it's OR. Per wp:AGF I don't insist about the irregularities and attacks that occurred in Lukovo and Vranishe.Alexikoua (talk) 17:42, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

MSchreiver: Note that pinging only those specific editors that might support your view isn't a sound way to build a neutral encyclopedia. I assume your intention is to ping 'all' participants in this tp.@Khirurg:@SilentResident:@Dr.K.:Alexikoua (talk) 17:51, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, Idk why Maleschreiber pinged Calthinus and El C only. But since, as you say, "ping all participants in this tp", why did you ping Khirurg, SR and Dr.K. and left without pings me and N.Hoxha? Just asking out of curiosity. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:02, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I thought Dr.K. said he didn't want pings... (I and El_C "might support Maleschreiber's view", based on what?)... but if you believe in pinging all users, typically you respond to alleged canvassing by pinging all users who want pings @Resnjari, Ktrimi991, and N.Hoxha:. Maleschreiber, give me a bit, there's a lot to read. --Calthinus (talk) 18:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

My dear Alexi, thank you for your kind invitation. I apologise, but this time I'll pass. My recent experience with several editors here has included crude shaming attempts, useless sleuthing based on some nature pictures I have on my userpage to determine my residence and origin to justify the crude shaming attempts of one of their cohorts, and, last but not least, misunderstanding of simple conditional clauses of the English language so that they can report me to an admin. The admin of course did not buy any of that, but, still, I would like to avoid mingling with such crowds. Again, stay well and safe, and sorry for declining your gracious invitation. Dr. K. 23:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Alexikoua: I won't have any discussion about a claim that says "Most Greek candidates participated as candidates of Albanian parties" because no source says that. The full quote from in.gr is: "It is also characteristic that the Greek candidates are claiming their election by asking for the support of a large Albanian party. Impressive is the change in the alliance by PBDNJ, which just two days ago abandoned the alliance with the ruling Socialist Party and switched to the Democratic Party coalition in the opposition." So, the source doesn't say "Most Greek candidates" and it's also obvious to what it is referring, which has to do with all Greek parties running as part of coalitions led by Albanian parties. I presented (with a change by Calthinus) a sourced and neutral dispute resolution attempt which says In the 2015 local elections, two Greek minority parties participated: PBDNJ which got 14,771 (0.95%) votes and MEGA which got 3,144 (0.2%) votes. Additionally, other Greek candidates ran as members of the coalitions of Albanian parties or as independent candidates. If you want to discuss on what to add to that, we're good, but I can't sit here and discuss about claims that appear nowhere in bibliography. If you feel that it is not possible to reach a consensus about it at this moment it's ok and I'll start a DRN at some point like others have suggested. I would prefer a well written article (without tags) which informs the readers, but tags are informative too in what the readers can expect from the content of an article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Another fact about the 2015 election is the scandal that erupted about the new electoral zones: it saw the deprivation of fundamental minority rights. [[11]] (Paper issued by the Council of Europe):

Many other municipalities traditionally inhabited by a substantial number of inhabitants affiliated with national minorities (such as Himarë or Shijak) were merged with other municipalities, inhabited by few persons affiliated with national minorities. As a consequence, persons belonging to national minorities living in such amalgamated local government units are not in a position to access their language rights. The Advisory Committee considers this a very serious impediment, which requires urgent remedies to be taken at the legislative level. It recalls in this context that “the rights of Article 10.2 are triggered by one of the two main criteria (substantial number or area traditionally inhabited), they apply also to areas where only a relatively small percentage of persons belonging to national minorities reside, provided that persons belonging to national minorities traditionally inhabit the areas concerned, that there is a request by these persons, and that such a request corresponds to a real need. The Advisory Committee deeply regrets, however, that no consideration was given to the

impact of the reform on the proportions of the population in areas where persons belonging to national minorities constitute a substantial, albeit minority part. Such areas can easily be identified by the electoral results in local elections of candidates representing political parties defending the interests of persons belonging to national minorities. Such LGUs include: Himarë, Konispol, Sarandë, Pogradec and Maliq. According to the Advisory Committee’s interlocutors, in none of the above LGUs were the views of the local population on the proposed mergers with adjoining LGUs

inhabited primarily by persons belonging to the majority taken into account. In consequence, a number of former small communes, where persons belonging to national minorities constituted substantial minorities, were merged with adjacent ones inhabited primarily by the majority. ”

As such it should be stated that in those elections the new electoral districts deprived the local Greek communities from certain language rights, as in the case of Himara.Alexikoua (talk) 12:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure - when you find a source that says Himara was deprived of its language rights because of the restructuring of municipalities. This one doesn't. It does say however that Greeks are a substantial minority in Himara and yet when I read the article Himarë I was suprised to find out that it presents it as "predominantly Greek region". Maybe this source should be added there to tone down a bit the large gap that exists between reality and how certain subjects are presented here.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

...persons belonging to national minorities living in such amalgamated local government units (Himara) are not in a position to access their language rights. This needs to be part of the 2015 elections. No reason to hide such information.Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

2017 elections

In the parliamentary elections of 2017 a total of 5 Greek representatives were elected, Dule was one of them[[12]] (UHRP joined alliance with the Democratic Party).Alexikoua (talk) 15:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

No Greek newspapers from now on. All we've gotten so far is totally wrong. I have no problem - in the spirit of AGF - if you point out to the election results site and just name those 5 people and I'll search for myself if they identify as Greeks. --Maleschreiber (talk) 23:22, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

According to your rationale Albanian news sites should also been excluded, right? That's a good argument to remove Goro's story. There is no way to ignore wp:PRIMARY policy. Take it to the correspondent noticeboard if wp:PRIMARY does not convince you.Alexikoua (talk) 07:25, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring anything. I gave you three steps: 1. cite the election results from the page of the results. I'm not going to use a Greek newspaper about elections in Albania. There are official results like in every country and we will use those like every other article about elections does. 2. Name which candidates that got elected were Greek. 3. List why you think they were elected as representatives of the Greek minority. I'm asking for this because about Bollanos you said that he was not a Greek minority representative in this procedure. (so his results shouldn't be included in the article) By applying the same logic, if none of these people with the exception of Dule were Greek minority representatives then there's no reason for this discussion to continue.--Maleschreiber (talk) 09:40, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Again: You don't want Greek newspapers. I fail to see such a policy in wikipedia about newspapers written in a specific language. What makes Albanian newspaper defacto more reliable? I have the feeling you should convince wp:RSN.Alexikoua (talk) 11:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not using Albanian newspapers to cite election results, I'm using the Central Electoral Commission page - like you should do too. --Maleschreiber (talk) 13:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I assume this means we also remove Goro's story as Albanian newspapers described it. The CEC doesn't state how many minority candidates were elected by joining the 2 main Albanian parties.Alexikoua (talk) 14:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Minority MPs: [[13]]: V. Dule, A. Marto, V. Tavo, A. Angjeli (Elbasan, but born in Saranda), V Hisi. If you insist that cnn.gr should be dismissed because its written in Greek have nothing to say. By the way those persons have been considered 'members of the ethnic Greek minority' in Albanian newspapers too [[14]] (though referring to previous elections but the same persons). Alexikoua (talk) 15:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)  

References

The term "Northern Epirus" was first used in official Greek correspondence in 1886, to describe the northern parts of the Janina Vilayet.

That is a sentence in the lede and is sourced to Skoulidas. The next sentence says that "It started to be used by Greeks in 1913, upon the creation of the Albanian state following the Balkan Wars". I can not find the sentence sourced to Skoulidas in any of the sections. Can anyone give a full quote of Skoulidas? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:16, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah, there is a quote in Greek. I will use GoogleTranslate to see what is says. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:21, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

The given quote does not mention any "1886". Can anyone give a more complete quote? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Skoulidas cites a report by the local Greek consul Skotidis, that's in p. 230. This report was written in March 22 (O.S.), 1886 (inline citation no.99, p. 225). The work is online.Alexikoua (talk) 18:48, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Ktrimi991: page 230, xrhsimopoiei ton oro "Voreios Hpeiros" wste na perigrafei voreies perioxes tou Vilaetiou Iwanniwn "...uses the term 'Northern Epirus' to describe the northern areas of the Ioannina Vilayet", and it goes on to say it is referring mainly to the Sandjak of Gjirokaster, which is more or less the northern parts of Janina. --Calthinus (talk) 00:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The northern parts of Ioannina Vilayet. (not Sandjack)Alexikoua (talk) 10:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, it is good. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:03, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Some bits from Baltsiotis and Kallivretakis will need to be added to the article about the usage of the term. I'll have time over a the week address those.Resnjari (talk) 18:12, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

There is already a detailed description by Kallivretakis, Skoulidas, Winnifrith etc.. No need to recycle the same piece of info.Alexikoua (talk) 18:13, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I do not want to recycle anything. I'll have a look to see if anything else that is not covered, needs to be covered from those solid sources.Resnjari (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Bolanos 2019

Bolanos getting 64 votes in 2019 is not trivia. If the article is going to present with such detail his run in 2007, the very least it can do is to mention that he chose to run in 2019 again and lost. Also, this was part of the article so removing it again goes up against BRD. By only writing that he was "elected against all Albanian candidates in 2007" (which is also not true, but we'll get to that later), but not mentioning that he got only 64 votes 12 years later, a narrative is formed for the readers which is not true. Bolanos was neither elected because he was Greek nor did he get 64 votes for the same reason. He got elected as an anti-corruption candidate and in 2015 and in 2019 the people of Himara assessed that narrative and his politics in general - as all voters do with all politicians. Also, please use the electoral commission site for any results, not random Greek newspapers. They're not RS.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree about Bolanos' vote count. --Calthinus (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes it is trivia. He ran as an independent, so it has nothing to do with the Greek minority. I get the impression you want this in the article to make certain insinuations regarding demographics. Khirurg (talk) 00:56, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

^Aspersion, enough about peoples' secret motives or whatever, cut it out already.--Calthinus (talk) 05:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure, Bolanos was not a Greek minority representative in this procedure. Thus, enough by predating that this info belongs here.Alexikoua (talk) 07:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't want this in the article to make any insinuation, but no insinuation can be made about the opposite reason too -that is why we should either include both or none. Do you want to have that version about Bolanos? Why doesn't it have to do with the Greek minority if he self-identifies as a Greek politician and was recognized as such as a mayor of Himara? If this doesn't have to do with the Greek minority, why do other Greek candidates who didn't run for a Greek party have to be mentioned like the one in Dropull which Alexikoua mentions that he run with the Socialist Party? I'll be ok with whatever we agree on eventually, but we have to follow the same set of rules for every case.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:03, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The fact that Bolanos got as few votes as he did says a lot about Bolanos but it doesn't tell us anything about the Greek minority. There is an article, Vasil Bollano, where that material can be added, but it is somewhat off-topic here. Khirurg (talk) 04:21, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Is isn't stated in the source that Bolanos was representative of the Greek minority in this procedure. The editor in question still refuses to accept wp:PRIMARY.Alexikoua (talk) 05:12, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Neither are Marto, Tavo, Angjeli which you claim to be Greek. You can't both include Tavo who isn't a representative of the minority though and has never been elected on minority politics and also exclude Bollanos who is Greek and is running in minority politics platform. Either both or none. --Maleschreiber (talk) 21:46, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Yet again wp:OWN. It appears you even reject Albanian newspapers too provided that they don't support your personal POV. The five ethnic Greek MPs in the current parliament is vital information. Thus according to your rationale only non-elected candidates should be mentioned. Do you believe that this makes sense?Alexikoua (talk) 06:55, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

We are not tokenizing ethnic Greeks who happen to be elected parliamentarians on the sole basis of their ethnicity. --Calthinus (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok I'm not going to include their names (Obviously MShreiber was a bit inappropriate by asking names precisely).Alexikoua (talk) 06:58, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Multiple POV issues

The article needs much work and input. The article discusses the problems with the minority's rights, but does not very much do so about the rights it enjoys and the considerable contribution Greeks well-integrated within Albanian society have given to the country. There is a section named "The Northern Epirote issue at present" that does not mention a "Northern Epirote issue". The subsection dedicated to the 2011 census mentions the minority's concerns but it should also mention the Alb government's concerns (and some other Albs' too) that the minority's numbers could get inflated in several ways by the Greek government and/or members of the minority itself. The history section itself has many issues. For instance, the "Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus (1914)" subsection describes the conflict as merely a 'Orthodox Greeks vs Muslim Albanians" thing. I am adding the POV template on the entire article. There is a need for as many editors as possible to participate at solving the many issues this article has. Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I fully agree and have been trying to explain this all along. Also, there is a clear direction on BLPN about the BLP claims which were used to remove information about Kacifas so we should also be discussing in what format we'll be reinstitating those. We don't have to mention every single hate incident against Albanian immigrants or every single comment about his possible politics but in some form they have to be re-added.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:53, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Yet you have to address precise argument instead of generally speaking of "multiple issues". The history section is 100% clear even Calthinus noted that he has no further concerns. By the way so far I see nothing more than an attempt to impose OR and POV. MSchreiber at least admitted to stay in AGF mode (apology accepted) in a number of sections in history. Let's stay neutral.Alexikoua (talk) 11:40, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Leaving aside your concerning even Calthinus innuendo, I only said I had no more concerns with the mythology section and have since raised concerns with two other sections, and criticized the portrayal of the Katsifas affair. I have my own continued other issues with this article as well. For example, it discusses at length the history of the Greek population, a minority in the region, but not the Albanian majority, or other present and past minorities (Vlachs, Roma, Jews, Slavs). There are also many points that can be added to its Greek/Roman/Byzantine history alone as it is patchy, so I was planning an expansion.--Calthinus (talk) 14:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua: I see nothing more than an attempt to impose OR and POV — would you like to fill the rest of us in? Because otherwise, general pronouncements like that are unhelpful. Ktrimi991 has raised a number of detailed points, if you find fault with their analysis, you ought to substantiate. El_C 11:46, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: the article focuses on the conflict, and not so much on the people, geography, and other issues. Compare this article with say Westchester County, New York and you see how the focus here is basically Greek minority in Albania or Grievances between Greeks and Albanians in Southern Albanian. For instance, basic geography of Northern Epirus is missing. Northern Epirus existed before man. Before Albanians or Greeks. The woods, stones, and rivers were here before man. On Wikipedia? It is about recent conflicts of man.PrisonerB (talk) 11:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see the 'Orthodox Greeks vs Muslim Albanians" thing about the 1914 conflict against annexation to the newly formed Albanian state. The situation describes the historical developments of that time period in the region. Can you become more precise on that?Alexikoua (talk) 11:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: Can you explain about whats the "every single hate incident against Albanian immigrants" how is this connected with this article? Northern Epirus is Albanian territory, the local Albanian population can't be "immigrants".Alexikoua (talk) 12:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I was referring to the Kacifas case and the incidents in the aftermath against Albanian immigrants in Greece and the discussion about his personal political views. When they were removed, the main claim had to with BLP. I followed the required procedure and asked about it on BLPN and this barely even falls under the scope of BLP and soon it'll completely out of its scope. IMO, the article shouldn't discuss Kacifas but when it was removed from the article you reverted it back on April 27. So, if the article is going to discuss about it and since there is a BLPN discussion that provides direction on how it can be discussed, it should at the very least be neutral. In that context, I wrote that every single hate incident against Albanian immigrants or every single comment about Kacifas's possible politics doesn't have to be mentioned but some formula under which 1-2 sentences can be written has to be found since the article discusses interethnic tensions.

@PrisonerB: I agree that the article is focused too much on presenting conflict and interethnic tensions. The people who live in this region are not living their daily lives with conflict as a focus and rarely have any issues with each other. In fact, despite the narrative often implied in the article of "Muslims vs. Christians" there is much intermarriage between members of the two religions in that region. An almost 50-year-period of recent history is described only in terms of Stalinist repression, but in this time the population of Dropull and Finiq greatly increased, new villages were built, literacy skyrocketed, the people despite the hardships for the first time in their lives had almost 50 consecutive years of no wars and not having to migrate because of extreme poverty and for the first time the folk culture of the region was recorded and published. The people of Dropull and Finiq are described in this 50-year period in the article mostly in terms of conflict and repression, but the people of this region contributed much in the rebuilding of Albania after the war. Many didn't see themselves as a "minority" vs. a "majority" but as a distinct part of the same community that strived together to rebuild their war-torn country. See Stein (2019): "During the Second World War, the Greek minority supported the anti-Axis resistance, and when the Partisan campaign was started under communist leadership, a separate battalion of ethnic Greek Partisans was established. During the national liberation struggle in the later stages of the war, the Albanian Communists were able to prevent contact between the Greek minority and the right-wing andartes [..] who sought to unite Northern Epirus with Greece". More often than not, real life is much more complex than the narratives which try to describe it.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:14, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you could write more on the rivers, streams, hills, mountains, birds, mammals (non-human), insects and so on in this place? I am sure you could agree on those details, and summarize all the ethnic bickering to a smaller section in the article? Less to fight about?PrisonerB (talk) 13:18, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@PrisonerB: Sure, the addition of such information sounds a good proposal (geography etc). I'm afraid that MSchreiber needs to explain why a section named 'geography' shouldn't be part of the article [[15]].Alexikoua (talk) 13:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Please contextualize my comments and address the issues that have been raised - elections, Kacifas, historical narratives etc. I never said that geographical details can't be discussed, nor have I removed any geographical details. I renamed that section because it mainly addressed issues of terminology.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

• Since we see multiple issues throughout the article, should we start with the definition of the term "Northern Epirus"? As it has already been said, reliable sources seem to give different definitions. In the end the lede should give a much more neutral summary of the subject of the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:01, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm waiting for you to present concrete arguments. As I know definition & history of N.E. has been addressed, see Talk:Northern_Epirus#"Mythological_foundations",_"geography"_in_Wikivoice. Calthinus agreed on his part and removed the POV tag. I'm afraid you are recycling the same questions.Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

On this point, yes Alexi and I agreed to treat this as a "natural" region, i.e. the part of Epirus which is in Albania. --Calthinus (talk) 15:18, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Not exactly that's half of the definition: Northern Epirus (Greek: Βόρειος Ήπειρος, Vorios Ipiros, Albanian: Epiri i Veriut) is a term used to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, which today are part of Albania. The term is used mostly by Greeks and is associated with the existence of a substantial ethnic Greek population in the region. The term is connected with the local Greek element. Just like Chameria & the Albanian element there.Alexikoua (talk)

I assume we respect PrisonerB's proposal, as I third part user he proposed something very interesting. The article needs an geography section after all (though it had one before this edit [[16]]).Alexikoua (talk) 15:29, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

It had a terminology section that also included geographical elements. We can split it in two different sections, I never objected to that.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

An Etymology and a Geography section sounds like a reasonable proposition. El_C 15:46, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

While the article says is a term used to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, which today are part of Albania, the map in the lede suggets that N.Eprius includes parts of Albania that were not part of the historical Epirus. The article elsewhere says that The region defined as Northern Epirus thus stretches further east than classical Epirus, and includes parts of the historical region Macedonia and that Rather than a clearly defined geographical term, "Northern Epirus" is largely a political and diplomatic term applied to those areas partly populated by ethnic Greeks that were incorporated into the newly independent Albanian state in 1913. Several sources define the territory called "Northern Epirus" as being southern Albania (example [17][18]). So should the connection made with the historical Epirus in the first sentence of the article stay as is? If yes, should the map be modified or removed? Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Now that I checked it, if I am not mistaken, the source that is used to make the connection with the historical Epirus (Smith) does not mention the historical Epirus, but just says "southern Albania". Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Would it be correct to say the two are the same entity, or would you say Southern Albania is different?--Calthinus (talk) 16:19, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

There are several definitions of what area southern Albania covers. What do you think? Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I know of three definitions of South Albania, mostly from Wikipedia (lol) as banal definitions aren't good conversation topics. One is bounded by the Shkumbin and the Greek/Mac borders, another is a subset of that one that excludes Myzeqe/Berat/Librazhd/Gramshi/Tomorrica, and a third a subset of that, which is essentially Korcha+Devolli+Kolonja+Permeti+Gjirokastra+Delvina+Saranda+Himara and mayyybe Vlora and Tepelena. I also know of two definitions of North Epirus. The larger is equivalent to the largest South Albania one. The smaller is equivalent to the smallest minus Vlora and Tepelena. Hence why I am unsure. There is only a match in the larger definitions; at the same time, the smaller definitions have more overlap than non-overlap.--Calthinus (talk) 16:35, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Historical/folklore region usually dont have precise border. There is no reason for lol. I havent see you writing with the same sarcasm about Chameria fluctuating borders.Alexikoua (talk) 18:57, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't sarcastic. --Calthinus (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 ... it does, however, appear that the AR def of NE... matches Southern Mountain Range (Albania)... well, if we ignore Skrapari, Tomorrica, Vithkuqi and Dishnica --Calthinus (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus: Just an idea. Would Northern Epirus is a term used for those territories of southern Albania that were part of the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus work? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:43, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 I'm not sure, to be honest. Is this equation typically accepted in Albania? --Calthinus (talk) 19:46, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

OR but I have encountered -- from ethnic Greek Albanians -- the other smaller definition of the region that excludes Tepelena, Korcha, Erseka... --Calthinus (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus: We should probably try to solve other issues of the article and later return to the first sentence. As already said, the article has many issues. I was thinking about continuing the process of solving them with adding some content on members of the minority who have are notable for their contribution to Alb society. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:44, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Changes map

According to the Albanian Rep. In Korca's county there are no greek minority villages. So i recommend to change the map. Like123.gr (talk) 13:04, 20 September 2020 (UTC)