Jump to content

Talk:Munich massacre/Archive 4

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

German Knowledge of the Attack

Although this section claims to be based on a Der Spiegel article, it actually cites a Times of Israel (which, to say the least, is not established as a first rate news organization) article that does not contain a link to the referenced article. I'm tagging it for questionable POV. Unless someone can provide a link to the original article it will be removed. Lexington50 (talk) 08:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

This was reported by several other sources in Israel, for example Haaretz[1], a source that unambiguously qualifies as an RS. The Der Spiegel article referred is presumably this one. It contains a link to a related Der Spiegel article article published a few days earlier. I guess the section in the Wikipedia article can be improved based on these sources when someone has the time. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
At the risk of stating the obvious if the article cites Der Spiegel as the source it should link to Der Spiegel, not to a third party paraphrasing information allegedly contained in Der Spiegel, and should limit itself to information conveyed in the original article. Third party paraphrasing is often used to smuggle in the writer's own agenda under the guise of citing a supposedly credible news source.
Also, this information is repeated twice in the article under both "German knowledge of the attack" and "Alleged German cover up". One of them should be removed.
Finally, the second paragraph under "Alleged German cover up" is again based entirely on a Jerusalem Post article that cites Der Spiegel. It should link directly to the Der Spiegel article. Lexington50 (talk) 23:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
One advantage of using secondary source coverage of the original reports is that the information in the original reports has been sampled by a reliable source rather than a random people on the internet who write Wikipedia articles. As for agendas, editors sampling original reports using completely opaque and subjective methods is often used to smuggle in the editor's own agenda under the guise of just following policy. I would choose Haaretz sampling over a Wikipedia editor's sampling every time because it is an RS and editors are not. When there is secondary coverage, the RS selects what it (not a Wikipedia editor) regards as the most pertinent and notable information from the original report. This is useful when it comes to thinking about due weight and what should be included in the Wikipedia article. So, for me, both the original reports and secondary coverage are useful. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I have a drawing by Mark Podwal named "Munich", in memory of Israeli victims of Munich massacre. The drawing is very effective and can be an excellent choice to include into the entry. The problem is, I have scanned it from a page of a book, which is a collection of illustrations, published in Iran in 1980's, with no clear copyright status-- Iran does not follow the international copyright agreements. How can the drawing be uploaded and seen by other users as part of the entry?--Echopapa echoromeo (talk) 18:06, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Although Iran may not "follow the international copyright agreements", there is probably still some sort of copyright status involved, including potential rights by Mr. Podwal himself. Still, if you think the image is very worthwhile, there is no harm in seeing what can be worked out. Here is what I would do:
1. Upload the file to Wikimedia Commons using the upload wizard.
2. After uploading, do not post the image on the article page yet. You can link it here on the Talk Page if you want though.
3. Start a discussion at the Wikipedia Copyright Problems Noticeboard, which is the right place for discussing possible copyright problems. If you can work out the issues there and get the green light, you can then return here and try inserting the image into the article.
Does that help? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I would skip steps 1 and 2 i.e. don't upload anything to commons unless it complies with Commons:Licensing and read Commons:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory#Iran before step 3. Commons is used by all sorts of sources outside of Wikipedia and has its own rules. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Brundage's memorial speech

In Avery Brundage's speech at the memorial held the next day after massacre, he indeed mention israeli victims. You can find the transcript in page 38 here http://library.la84.org/6oic/OfficialReports/1972/1972s1pt1.pdf

I agree with Spitzer that his criticism of the attack was mild, but saying that he did not mention the Israeli victims is not 100% accurate --186.136.170.81 (talk) 19:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Accusations against Germany.

I find it strange that accusations against Germany are written down, but nothing about how the IOC denied Israel's request for security.

I'd make a Bold edit but I believe that it would be reverted by someone for false tendentious reasons.Hilltrot (talk) 22:52, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Names in hostage taking section

What are the name in brackets after each of the hostage takers for? Should that not be clarified in the section prior to it occurring? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.12.253.88 (talk) 03:39, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Those are the code names used by the terrorists, sourced from Serge Groussard's "The Blood of Israel". BassPlyr23 (talk) 10:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying that. I have revised the copy to reflect this as it was previously unclear (I had the same question). —sroc 💬 15:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Sunshine

The police took up positions awaiting the codeword "Sunshine", which upon hearing, they were to begin the assault.

Surely the codeword was a German word which translates as "sunshine"? —sroc 💬 15:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Moshe Dayan

Information Clearing House - Alan Hart - The Only Surprise Is That Not More Israeli Jews Are Being Attacked And Killed, 9 October 2015: For the record: Throughout his many years as chairman of the PLO Arafat gave his reluctant approval to only one terrorist operation – taking Israeli athletes hostage at the Munch Olympics in 1972. That operation was masterminded by Abu Iyad, the head of Fatah’s intelligence service, but killing the Israeli athletes who were taken hostage was not part of his plan. As agreed with Egypt’s President Anwar Sadat, the captured Israeli athletes were to be flown to Cairo and released in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners. That, plus the public relations benefit of the operation, would have been enough for Abu Iyad and his Fatah leadership colleagues. The Israeli athletes were killed because Israel’s then defence minister, Moshe Dayan, insisted on a shoot-out at Furstenfeldbruck Airport before the captured Israeli athletes could be transferred to the plane that was supposed to take them to Cairo. When Prime Minister Golda Meir told me that story she said Dayan had threatened to resign if she didn’t allow him to authorise a shoot-out in Germany. She herself was opposed to it because she didn’t want one more Israeli life to be lost.     ←   ZScarpia   09:29, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 6 external links on Munich massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 14:49, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Which coach?

Fencing coach Andre Spitzer, who spoke fluent German, and shooting coach Kehat Shorr, the senior member of the Israeli delegation, had a brief conversation with German officials while standing at the second-floor window of the besieged building, with two kidnappers holding guns on them. When Spitzer attempted to answer a question, the coach was clubbed with the butt of an AK-47...

Which coach was clubbed? The fencing coach or the shooting coach? —sroc 💬 15:50, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, it was unclear. Spitzer was clubbed.

BassPlyr23 (talk) 00:57, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Change the title

Somebody should change the title, Munich massacre also happened on July 22, 2016..--Rudolph Davis (talk) 22:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Emerging consensus not to move (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 00:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Munich massacre → 1972 Munich massacre – I'm proposing this rename in agreement with Rudolph Davis and others before. The rename however isn't only to disambiguate the 1972 massacre from the 2016 Munich shooting. In the long run, the even more relevant massacre requiring disambiguation might be the 1980 Oktoberfest terror attack which is regularly referred to as the "Oktoberfest massacre". The 1972 Munich massacre is closely affiliated with 1972, particularly for the high saliency of the "1972 Olympic Games" in Munich, in which context the massacre was perpetrated. -- PanchoS (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. No such user (talk) 11:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I'd like to request the terrorists names in the article to be linked to their respective pages. I have created four recently in regards to Afif Ahmed Hamid, Yusuf Nazzal, Khalid Jawad and Adnan Al-Gashey. Many Thanks. Clanc12 (talk) 10:51, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

@Clanc12:  Done May I suggest that you nominate your new articles for exposure on the Did you know... section of the main page. Pppery 16:58, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 March 2017

Request to change Ze'ev Friedman to Amitzur Shapira in reference to the body being blown from the helicopter. Can this source be a picture ? Clanc12 (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

 Not done As above, please provide reliable sources. Not an image alone, preferably an article or statement from a reliable source. Side note, you can reopen an edit request by changing {{edit extended-protected|Munich massacre|answered=yes}} to no. — IVORK Discuss 07:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Misidentification.

It was Amitzur Shapira's body that was blown clear of the helicopter and not Ze'ev Friedman. This can be verified by the photo's in the montage at the end of One Day In September (1999). Clanc12 (talk) 21:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Clanc12: I guess you meant the doc film One Day in September. Anyway, I added "edit protected" tag, so you can use it if you want more requests. --George Ho (talk) 01:16, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball 21:45, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

The photographs at the end of "One Day in September" show the bodies of Israelis Amitzur Shapira (who was in the helicopter that was NOT blown up), Yosef Gutfreund, Kehat Shorr (both still sitting bound in the same helicopter), and Eliezer Halfin (sitting, burned, in the blown-up helicopter). A documentary shown on NBC during the Barcelona Olympics shows other pictures from the airport, including a body covered in fire-extinguishing foam that to my eye is certainly Ze'ev Friedman. That's the basis for my statement. BassPlyr23 (talk) 21:54, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2017

IchBinEin (talk) 10:30, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 10:33, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Munich massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:32, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

"The soldiers were selected because they shot competitively on weekends."

Find the error.----217.248.1.131 (talk) 23:34, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2017

Missing a </ref> tag in aftermath section. SierraXV (talk) 02:03, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Done SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 03:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 November 2017

How many times were the killed hostages killed?

"On 3 August 2016, two days prior to the start of the 2016 Summer Olympics, the International Olympic Committee officially honored the eleven Israelis killed for the first time.[12]"

to:

On 3 August 2016, two days prior to the start of the 2016 Summer Olympics, the International Olympic Committee officially honored, for the first time, the eleven Israelis that were killed.[12] 2605:E000:9143:7000:A851:731C:9FE0:C3E6 (talk) 00:47, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Too many commas and unnecessary detail. New proposal: "Two days prior to the start of the 2016 Summer Olympics the International Olympic Committee officially honored, for the first time, the eleven Israelis that were killed." Acceptable? Primefac (talk) 01:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Perfect; my only concern was that somehow the killed people came back to life, which is medically possible, did not happen in this instance and were killed additional times.2605:E000:9143:7000:A851:731C:9FE0:C3E6 (talk) 01:25, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Done Primefac (talk) 01:39, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 January 2018

The line "equipped with the H&K G3, the ordinary assault rifle of the German Armed Forces" under 5.1 - Ambush Plan is incorrect, as the H&K G3 is a select-fire battle rifle firing the full power 7.62 NATO cartridge, not an intermediate cartridge such as 5.56 NATO (which would be used in an assault rifle). The correct version of this line would be "equipped with the H&K G3, the ordinary battle rifle of the German Armed Forces" 2601:181:C380:2689:4525:955E:838E:805D (talk) 21:07, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Done Spintendo ᔦᔭ 21:59, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 March 2018

This is quite a simple edit, but I think it should be mentioned that the GIGN were also founded because of the Munich Massacre. Shibe08 (talk) 14:57, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. (You'll definitely want to provide a reliable source.) RivertorchFIREWATER 16:20, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 June 2018

Please change "a squad of 38 German police" to "a squad of 38 German policemen" or similar. English is not my native language, so I'm not completely sure about this, but I think you can't count the word "police". 83.162.254.217 (talk) 20:05, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done. I changed it to "police officers". Thanks for flagging this. RivertorchFIREWATER 20:11, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Terrorists?

Terrorists is not neutral at all. Militants is more neutral.80.111.16.75 (talk) 09:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


I disagree with the above intervention. Militants can engage in a range of activities that means that a group of people engage in militarised armed displays or responses. So all of the people in Black September surely were militants, but by engaging violently against unarmed civilians for maximal public impact and hold civil society hostage they also became terrorists. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant [[2]] --KxLondon (talk) 09:21, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Memorial Site in the Olympic Park is missing

Sorry I am not good with editing Wiki, and I have not edited enough pages to qualify for this one, but I wanted to alert you to missing information that the memorial site in the Olympic park has opened in September 2017

A picture was uploaded by Wikipeda.de here https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchner_Olympia-Attentat#/media/File:Munich_1972_Massacre_Memorial.jpg

see https://www.dw.com/en/germany-opens-munich-olympics-memorial-honoring-israelis-killed-by-terrorists/a-40379236 http://jewish-heritage-europe.eu/2017/10/23/munichs-powerful-innovative-new-memorial-to-olympics-massacre/

there was also a huge debate about this reported in the German media like the Suedeutsche Zeitung see https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/attentat-von-gedenk-gezaenk-im-olympiadorf-1.2321459replicated in English here, which also gives an insight into the battle for the adequate memorial since the 1970s.

DANIEL ZYLBERSZTAJN, a former resident of Olympic village https://dzx2.net/2018/01/02/memorial-site-to-1972-olympic-terror-a-reflection-on-its-opening/ https://dzx2.net/2015/01/11/terror-not-remembered-dont-kill-our-snow-fun-hill-a-sorry-tale-of-a-limping-democratic-intervention/ How lucky we are that the 1972 Memorial site is now standing.... some should hurry to visit it. EDGHILL UNIVERSITY LECTURE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAEnz9yJUfI&feature=youtu.be

As you know today the debate continued due to the UK opposition leader Corbyn seemingly giving honoured Black September people at their grave. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-not-involved-munich-olympics-massacre-wreath-laying


Thank you

NOTICING THAT CHANGES WERE NOT IMPLEMENTED BY THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAGE, WHILST PAGE IS RESTRICTED. --KxLondon (talk) 09:26, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Were the games suspended?

The section "Effect on the Games" says that "competition was eventually suspended", although that doesn't seem clear to me when reading the rest of the section. Neither does the main article on 1972 Summer Olympics seem to state clearly that the games were closed early. Were the games eventually suspended, or not? (I added a "citation needed"-tag to the statement.) --St.nerol (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Mossad Director's Response Missing

I watched a documentary series on the Israeli intelligence group Mossad where Zvi Zamir, Director of Mossad during the Munich Massacre, harshly criticizes the German police response (or lack thereof). In the series on Netflix he says, "one generation isn't enough" referring to Germany's troubled history involving Jewish hostages, and he has apparently repeatedly claimed the Germans were apathetic and most responsible for the slaughter. When he returned from Munich on September 6th he said: “They didn’t make even a minimal effort to save lives, didn’t take even a minimal risk to save people, neither theirs nor ours”, he said. In his opinion, the Germans only wanted to finish with this business at all costs, in order to get on with the Olympics. When Golda asked him why the Israeli delegation had not been guarded, he quoted the words of the security officer at the Israeli embassy in Bonn. The officer had asked the local police to provide protection for the delegation, and his reply was: “What are you thinking about? The Olympic spirit reigns here and nothing will happen.” (Source: http://www.archives.gov.il/en/chapter/didnt-even-make-minimal-effort-save-lives-zvi-zamirs-reports-events-munich/)

Shouldn't we include this information and opinion? Ignoring the apparent problems with Arab-Israeli pages on Wikipedia in general, the reponse of the victims' national intelligence director to the police who let it end badly seems worth recording permanently. And what's currently on this page reeks of whitewashing. Too much focus on the assassination mission and nothing on this in the "Criticism" and "Israeli Response" sections. Just because they didn't hunt them down one by one doesn't mean the Israelis didn't hold the Germans responsible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.242.43 (talk) 16:03, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2019

In the first line under the the paragraph "Effect on the Games" there is an error. The Olympics were never fully suspended, but only put on a pause for a 24-hour period starting a of couple hours after the attacks. 145.116.125.131 (talk) 11:39, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: That is what "suspended" means. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:46, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 October 2019

Change "The soldiers[contradictory] were selected because they shot competitively on weekends." to "The officers were selected because they shot competitively on weekends."

This is no longer contradictory and is supported by source [14], which says, "Now the plan rested on the accuracy of five sharpshooters, none of whom deserved the title. Two had been picked from the Bavarian riot police. The other three were Munich police officers. None had any special training. All had been chosen simply because they shot competitively on weekends." ImaDuck (talk) 07:29, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done OhKayeSierra (talk) 08:19, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Consistency with attacks, incidents, and massacres

I understand that the media accords more importance to 11 lives lost in the Western world than in other places around the world [Double standards], but I don't expect this to be echoed here on Wikipedia. Seeing that the attack in which 358 people lost their lives in Mogadishu is not called a massacre (see October 2017 Mogadishu bombings), I suggest that you either rename this page also or at least, to maintain some consistency, rename the Mogadishu attack page as a massacre too.

Also note how the mass shooting in Las Vegas is also not called a "massacre" (see 2017 Las Vegas shooting), making this Munich page seem all the more inconsistent, and politicized.

This is universally known as the Munich massacre, which is why this article has that title. Even though there have been massacres in Munich in 1980 & 2016, it's only the one in 1972 which is known that name. The 2017 Las Vegas shooting & 14 October 2017 Mogadishu bombings aren't universally known as massacres, even though they both have much higher death tolls. Jim Michael (talk) 18:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 January 2020

In the "effects on the games" section it states: "The victims' families were represented by Andre Spitzer's widow Ankie, Moshe Weinberg's mother, and a cousin of Weinberg, Carmel Eliash. During the memorial service, Eliash collapsed and died of a heart attack".

Carmel Eliash is said not to have died, but refused treatment in a German hospital and flew to Israel for medical aid. He died two years later of another heart attack. The source for this is the mans Wikipedia article. The english page does not have a source, the Hebrew page has a reference to the Tirat Carmel website(this is the village Carmel Eliash was mayor of), but the page is in Hebrew, which I do not read. Can anyone confirm and edit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.247.30.143 (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

No idea what you’re talking about. Carmel Eliash does not have a separate page on Wikipedia. If you go hunting for it, you’ll find a photo of Eliash being carried out of the Olympic Stadium. Several books, including “The Blood of Israel” and “One Day in September”, have the story of Eliash dying during the memorial service. Reputable source for your contrary statement, please? BassPlyr23 (talk) 21:22, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Paragraphs in International Reaction Should Be Moved To Fit Timeline Of Events

The general structure of the article follows the timeline of events in terms of:

1. Prelude 2. Hostage Taking 3. International Reaction [to hostage taking] 4. Negotiations 5. Failed Rescue 6. Aftermath

However, right now in the Internal Reaction section there is a paragraph discussing Nixon's reaction *after* all the hostages have been killed. This paragraph should be moved into the Aftermath section, probably under a new sub heading for American Response, since this was Nixon's response after everything had played out and all the hostages had been killed, not his response to the initial hostage taking.

The paragraph quoting the King of Jordan should also potentially get the same treatment, however, it's unclear when exactly it was made, and the source is unavailable to check.

  • Paragraph in question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre#cite_ref-Cooley_32-0:~:text=U.S.%20President%20Richard%20Nixon%20privately%20discussed,to%20take%20steps%20against%20international%20terrorism.%5B

67.71.177.94 (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2020

The INITIAL EDIT REQUEST is below, in between the two lines:

=========================================================================================================================

Whilst reading the *LOCKED* article on the 1974 Munich Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) I found an ERROR in the "Aftermath" section ... namely "During the memorial service, the Olympic Flag <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Flag> was flown at half-staff <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-staff>, along with the flags of most of the other competing nations at the request of Willy Brandt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willy_Brandt>. Ten Arab <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab> nations objected to their flags being lowered to honor murdered Israelis; their flags were restored to the tops of their flagpoles almost immediately."

THIS LAST STATEMENT IS WRONG!!! (although it WAS correct for about 2 seconds. Since a flag can only be lowered from FULL MAST the ten nation's flags would have to be RAISED first to full mast before lowering.)/*

  • /

/*International law FORBIDS the flying of any nations flag higher than any OTHER nations flag except in times of war.*/ (And even then - only inside the borders of the participating nations.)

(It's AMAZING how often this law is broken ... but it's NOT something the UN or IOC would do ... they're VERY public conscious and wouldn't make that mistake.)

Therefore the protesting nations flags would have been *LOWERED/REMOVED*.

==================================================================================================================

At which point your editors made a slight change to make it read: "Ten Arab <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab> nations objected to their flags flying at half-staff and the mandate was rescinded." which is ALSO FALSE. I pointed this out to them ... TWICE and got back a link to this page.

The mandate WAS NOT RESCINDED (if it was then ALL the flags would have been raised to full mast), Instead the flags of the protesting nations were REMOVED for the duration of the mourning period in accordance with international law. (This is not trying to put a neutral SPIN on the story ... it's a simple statement of FACT ... that's what happened, as you can SEE from the image below (from the wikimedia commons page) with several missing flags/bare poles about halfway down)

Now, why don't you CORRECT your "CORRECTION" to state the TRUTH! (Just replace '*the mandate was rescinded*' with the bold, text above. It's a simple statement of FACT, that in no way disparages anybody, and is completely NEUTRAL ... AND TRUE.)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Trauerfeier_f%C3%BCr_die_Opfer_des_Attentats_in_M%C3%BCnchen_%28Kiel_53.819%29.jpg (Image showing the EMPTY FLAGPOLES about halfway down the rows) 203.63.75.75 (talk) 07:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Writing in all-caps has a tendency to look like shouting. The source says Willy Brandt asked all countries to fly their flags at half mast to honor the Munich 11, but rescinded the mandate when 10 Arab nations objected so it seems to me like we're correctly reflecting the source. We would need a source for the flags being removed. Going by an image would be original research but additionally, I don't see clear signs of empty flagpoles there. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:53, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Negotiations

This is generally small, but since I cannot make the change, I am hoping someone else can. Under the Negotiations headline, near the end of the section is the sentence "Fatefully, these numbers were accepted as definitive." The use of the word 'Fatefully' feels like a poor word choice here. It implies that the under estimation of the number of attackers somehow resulted in some sort of mitigated circumstances. While it certainly had some impact on the outcome, it foreshadows with too much weight and reads awkwardly. Perhaps something like 'Without other available information, these numbers were accepted as definitive."? SnarkyValkyrie (talk) 19:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

The Munich victims were mentioned in the Tokyo Olympics

I'm not sure where to add this mention in the article Adam080 (talk) 11:35, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Grammar

In the criticism, there is a grammatical error. It says that "In the 2020 Summer Olympics, a moment of silence was observed in the opening ceremony. This is the first time in history this happens in the opening ceremony" when it should be "In the 2020 Summer Olympics, a moment of silence was observed in the opening ceremony. This is the first time in history this had happened in an opening ceremony."TTTTRZON (talk) 13:57, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2021

Munich massacre Mouse2003 (talk) 14:43, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:51, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Typo

In the Media section, "Stephen Spielberg" should be "Steven Spielberg". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Telmo Amaral (talk • contribs) 01:37, March 8, 2022 (UTC)

 Already done. –CWenger (^ • @) 00:46, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Eliash didn't die of a heart attack at this game

Could someone with better edit rights than me edit this part: "During the memorial service, Eliash collapsed and died of a heart attack." Eliash didn't die of a heart attack at the games, he died a year later from his second heart attack. I've seen this repeated a few times but it is false. Thanks!

Aphexcoil (talk) 00:35, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? There is a source in the article that says they died during the memorial service. –CWenger (^ • @) 00:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Wrath of God

"Mossad responded to the release with the 1973 Israeli raid on Lebanon and Operation Wrath of God, tracking down and killing Palestinians suspected of involvement in the massacre" is marked as missing citation. Here is one: The Mossad's secret wars — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simpatico qa (talk • contribs) 11:30, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

plus Added. –CWenger (^ • @) 02:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Negotiations - second to last sentence of section

I think that the word "Israelis" should be replaced with "Palestinians", as otherwise the sentence doesn't seem to make sense: "While Genscher and Tröger were talking with the hostages, Kehat Shorr had told the West Germans that the Israelis would not object to being flown to an Arab country, provided that strict guarantees for their safety were made by the Germans and whichever nation they landed in." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.100.143.101 (talk • contribs) 14:31, May 24, 2021 (UTC)

 Fixed. It is confusing because a hostage (Shorr) is speaking on behalf of the terrorists, but I think you are correct it should be Palestinians not Israelis. –CWenger (^ • @) 02:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Beware of systematic misinforming in the Persian Wikipedia; this is an example!

Please have your people fluent in Persian supervise Persian wiki-texts of sensitive issues. Seems certain "editors" are commissioned to systematically misinform people about some issues including "Munich Massacre". In this case, they blame the massacre on the West German police!

German involvement in planning the release of the three surviving purpotrators in fake hijacking?

The documentary "one day in September" alludes to German involvement in planning the fake hijacking in order to release the terrorists and to avoid scrutiny and further attacks. I see no mention of this? Should there be?

Comment: The preceding comment refers to the documentary "BBC.Storyville.2012.Olympic.Massacre.One.Day.in.September". Al-Gashey was interviewed on camera (with his face unconcealed) in this 2012 BBC documentary, as were several other eye witnesses and key participants. These first hand testimonies contain a lot of relevant information and it would be excellent if somebody could watch it and include relevant eye witness and key participant testimonies (as literal quotes not facts, of course) to enrich the current Wikipedia entry. A torrent of the documentary can be found online.

Please add ..

In the fourth paragraph in the section "Effect on the Games," the following:


Wilma van Gool had qualified for the semifinals in the 200 m sprints, and the 23.22 that she ran in the quarterfinals was faster than the time in the quarterfinals of the eventual gold medal winner, Renate Stecher of East Germany.[1] However, after the killing of 11 Israeli athletes in the Munich Massacre, and the Olympics not being cancelled, she withdrew from the competition in sympathy with the Israeli victims.[2] She said that she was leaving in protest of the "obscene" decision to continue with the Olympic Games.[3] 2603:7000:2143:8500:2898:9339:1770:1EDA (talk) 22:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

plus Added. Thanks for your well-sourced contribution! –CWenger (^ • @) 03:27, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Olympedia – 200 metres, Women". www.olympedia.org.
  2. ^ "Maccabiah Games: A Somber Occasion". The New York Times. July 8, 1973.
  3. ^ John Bale (2004). Running Cultures; Racing in Time and Space

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 August 2022

Change A Tribute to the 1972 Israeli Olympic Athletes – Includes biographies and photographs for each of the 11 Israeli athletes killed EXTERNAL LINKS SOURCE to www.municholympics.com Cyanometry (talk) 15:42, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done rather than replace the existing link (which is preserved in an internet archival service) I just added this as an additional resource. --N8wilson 🔔 16:15, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Merger proposal

CLOSED
Agree to merging of article(s) as per MEMORIAL. Since no opinions have been expressed against merge even after extensive time and targeted requests, proposer or interested editor may risk acting BOLDLY and proceeding with the merge. Non-Administrative closure GenQuest "scribble" 14:32, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formal request has been received to merge: Anton Fliegerbauer into Munich massacre; dated: September 2022. Proposer's Rationale: Wikipedia is not a memorial and there is nothing notable about this officer besides being killed in the massacre, unlike the other victims, who were Olympic athletes or terrorists. Its contents already exists in the massacre or can be added there. 2603:7000:2601:B81:5871:44BC:6B6B:8E2A. Discuss here. GenQuest "scribble" 14:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Comment: WikiProject Bavaria, WikiProject Germany and WikiProject Disaster Management (those for whom this page has high priority) have been notified. Felix QW (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Background?

Shouldn’t background on the Black September Organization, their motives, and reasoning be included? Including background on the conflict itself? 2001:1970:5163:1200:0:0:0:5CDE (talk) 20:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

That's what links to the Black September article are for, surely? (Hohum @) 00:29, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Edit request, and a question about conflicting info

In "Surviving Black September members," under "Abu Daoud", it should be clarified that according to the source, the PLO (etc.) were protesting Daoud's arrest--currently it looks like they were protesting France sending him to Algeria before Germany could get him. I have already corrected this on Daoud's article itself, which had the same text. Additionally, here it is implied that France was trying to get him off their hands before Germany could get the correct paperwork in order, but above in the final paragraph of "Alleged German Cover-up", the article states that the Barvarian government intentionally did not act after France asked whether they intended to extradite. Which of these is true? 204.134.245.226 (talk) 18:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Torture

This article is light on the mention of torture, which is a critical detail about such an event. The NYT article that mentions beatings also says that one of the victims was castrated alive. 2600:1700:88B0:6090:A1E1:8FD7:2029:F8A2 (talk) 18:44, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

That is already mentioned in the article, sourced to the NYT, after he was dead. (Hohum @) 19:52, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 February 2024

Correcting Carmel Eilash's death date, he did not die during the memorial of this event. Bllasae (talk) 01:41, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 14:37, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

You are missing a victim

Moshe Weinberg wrestling coach 72.68.204.110 (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit request: mention controversy around Adidas commemorating the 1972 Munich Olympics


  • What I think should be changed: Add a section to the article, to discuss the longer-term legacy. Within that, mention the ongoing controversy around Adidas commemorating the 1972 Munich Olympic Games - the company chose to do this via launching a new shoe, featuring Bella Hadid as a model. This is causing significant controversy within the Israeli and Jewish communities, due to Hadid's past controversies on her stance on Hamas and Palestinian political violence in general.
  • Why it should be changed: The Munich Massacre has a long legacy, now with commemoration of the Munich Olympics occuring via Adidas' new shoe in 2024. Adidas is a household name in the fashion space and hence their actions and controversies hold significance. The controversy around Adidas' collaboration with a famous yet controversial model, who is perceived by some in the Jewish and Israeli communities as having problematic stances on Palestinian political violence, is an important point to record in the history of the legacy/commemoration of the Munich Massacre. It also ties into the wider discussion around the ongoing Israel-Hamas War.
  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): Please see this article by the Jewish Chronicle about the ongoing controversy. Please see this article by the Jerusalem Post highlighting a past controversy by Bella Hadid.

Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 11:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — DaxServer (t·m·e·c) 11:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
The story has now been picked up by more mainstream news outlets, such as BBC News. I did not mention specific changes, because I propose something more general - this incident needs to be mentioned in some way, and it would be irresponsible to propose any specific paragraph. Should I propose a specific paragraph? Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 14:49, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 Already done. Another editor has added a paragraph to the end of Munich massacre#Effect on the Games. –CWenger (^ • @) 15:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Carmel Edward Eliash didn't die at the olympic games

According to his own wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel_Eliash Please fix 2601:152:884:39F0:20ED:D0AC:79BB:CED4 (talk) 04:21, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

If someone could please change the link from Black September to Black September Organization in Aftermath, third paragraph.186.139.187.134 (talk) 16:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I have changed the first mention of Black September in that section to a link to the correct article, and removed the later link. (Hohum @) 17:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2024

In the "Aftermath" section, it is stated that Carmel Eliash died of a heart attack during the memorial service in the Olympic Stadium, which is not correct. He suffered a heart attack but was flown to Israel and recovered. He died of another heart attack in May 1973. See the Wikipedia article about Carmel Eliash. Thank you. Jacqueshobbes (talk) 06:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: There are no references in the Wikipedia article about it. If you have a reliable source to back this up, please link it in the reply and I will update the article.— BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 13:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Munich_massacre/Archive_4&oldid=1260195538"