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Archive 1Archive 2

Albanians in Voskopoja?

Macrakis, do you have any source on Albanians in Voskopoja? From the sources I read, back then there was no significant Albanian population in the city. bogdan 19:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

See page 9 of [1]:

Orthodox culture in eighteenth-century Albania is intimately linked to the rise of the city Voskopojë.... Many Greek scholars of note came to teach at Voskopojë among the Aromunians, who made up the majority of the population, the Albanians and the Greeks.

The multilingual glossaries published there (Kavaliotis, Daniil) also indicate that Albanian was one of the local languages. I'd be happy to see more sources. --Macrakis 20:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute the fact that there were Albanians or Greeks in Voskopoja. All Balkan commercial towns had lots of ethnicities at the time, it's just that most sources say Voskopoja was overwhelmingly Aromanian.

Johann Thunmann (1746-1778) who actually visited the town said that "everyone" in the city spoke Aromanian and many also spoke Greek.

Maria N. Todorova wrote in "Balkan Identities: Nation and Memory" (2004):

"My Aromanian interviewees referred to Voskopoja as formerly exclusively Aromanian/Vlach, highly developed, urban centre of Balkan trading."

bogdan 21:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

What current Aromanian informants say isn't very helpful for the 18th century -- and we have to be careful of ethnic boosterism, as Peyfuss points out:

Peyfuß offers a refreshingly critical review of the town's rise and history, noting that much of the literature on Moschopolis is unreliable and influenced by wishful thinking on the part of mostly nationalist authors from the Balkans. As an historian he relies on the facts as far as they can be determined.

(from cited Elsie review) I have no axe to grind here. It is clear that Moschopolis was destroyed by Muslim Albanians; the role of Christian Albanians seems less clear, and I'd be happy to see more evidence one way or the other. (see also http://www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm -- nothing decisive, but interesting) --Macrakis 21:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Moscopole or Voskopoja

Both the Swedish & Deutch Wiki use the Albanian name Voskopoja for the article, and not the Greek one. The Albanian name Voskopoja also have more google hits than the Greek name Moscopole! Plus the city is situated in Albania not Greece!

--Albanau 12:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Albanau this article refers mainly to the 18th century commercial center not to the poor little village it is nowadays. It's name back then was Moscopole, i think we have all agreed on that. Also... uhmmm Greece? this city was MAINLY part of Aromanian history not Greek or Albanian and Moscopolea is how they call it.86.104.216.79 13:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Voskopoja also is a Greek-origin name Voskos shepherd and poli city poja(slavicized or aromanized maybe)

Moscopole or Voskopoja?

Dear Alexikoua, let me remind you what you said earlier at User talk:Aqwis' talk page:

The reason why Moscopole is the article's name is because the city, a metropolis of 60,000 pop. during mid. 18th century, doesn't exist now. A village of 700 called Voskopoja on the same place is just a shadow of Moscopole.

Now, the lead page has it: Moscopole [...] is a small village in southeastern Albania. I’m perplexed, Moscopole is

1. A metropolis of 60,000 pop. during mid. 18th century, that now doesn’t exists; or
2. Moscopole [...] is a small village in southeastern Albania; or
3. A village of 700 called Voskopoja on the same place, just a shadow of Moscopole.
I think that you just don’t know what you’re talking about. I think you should let others handle this. Of course Voskopoja (Moschopolis) exists, I saw it last summer with my own eyes: it was there... at the usual place where it has been for some 700 hundred years. --User:Guildenrich 22:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Moschopolis and Voschopolis

I think there should be a section on the origin of the name, which means "city of the sheppherds", voskos, moschos, in both its forms. Guildenrich 18:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Google scholar

Google Scholar: Moschopolis 129 hits. [2] vs. Moscopole 50 hits [3]. Guildenrich (talk) 21:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

When I search for English articles only (which still lets some Greek articles slip through, but it's better than raw search), I get this: Moschopolis 61, Moscopolis 13, Moscopole 11, Moschopole 0, Voskopojë 40, Voskopoja 53. Markussep Talk 14:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

There is also Moskopole 9, Moskopolje 6, Moskopol 6, Moschopol 2, Moschopoli 5. It seems the name exists in various similar forms.Alexikoua (talk) 15:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that the most frequently used names in English are Voskopoja & Moschopolis. Maybe we could resort to some sort of arbitration for the name change. Guildenrich (talk) 15:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Agree. Given the small difference in usage between the two (WP:NCGN quote "If the name is used at least three times as often as any other, in referring to the period, it is widely accepted."), I guess it's rather arbitrary which name we use. I think both names are acceptable, I have a slight preference for Voskopojë (the indefinite form of Voskopoja). Markussep Talk 13:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Voskopojë, Voskopoja, potato potato as they say. In Albanian, as in Romanian and Swedish (?, not so sure) the article goes at the end of the word. Voskopoja is "Voskopojë-the" or the Voskopojë. Guildenrich (talk) 15:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I see that travelguides adopt the Voskopoja/e form, on the other hand most academic/encyclopedic researches prefer the m-.Alexikoua (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no objections to the page being renamed Voskopoja. Guildenrich (talk) 18:55, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Objections, anyone? Guildenrich (talk) 01:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Seems you took the initiative alone here Guil.. Did I say that wiki is a travel guide? Academic sources are always preferred. You didn't provide an argument to support the Voskopoje move anyway.Alexikoua (talk) 05:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Guildenrich, Alexikoua and I have done some research on English usage, and concluded that Moschopolis, Voskopojë and Voskopoja are all reasonable options. Alexikoua states that Moschopolis is more used in academic sources, and thus preferable, we should verify and discuss that. The way forward would be to search for all names, like this, and check each hit for whether they're written in English, whether they're about this town (and not about "Daniel of Moschopolis", for instance), and which name is used primarily (e.g. "Voskopoja (formerly named Moschopolis)"). About academic vs. guidebooks, WP:NCGN actually states "When considering a source in determining English usage, remember the purpose of the source. When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say". This may apply to a few of the hits we found. Markussep Talk 16:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I went through the hits at Google Scholar, these are the results:
  • Moscopole 2
  • Moschopolis 21
  • Voskopojë/a 21
  • Moscopolis 1
  • duplicate 4
  • not about town 19 (several about a pea race and a geological fault named after Voskopoja, and about Daniel of Moschopolis)
  • not accessible 5
My conclusion: academic use is evenly divided between Moschopolis and Voskopojë/a. Markussep Talk 13:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I forgot to say that "Voskopojë" is also the ufficial standard form. Guildenrich (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
M- seems somewhat more prefferable than V-, if we count all the variations of M-. Actually the city became known as M-. V- is an anachronism since when this name was officially adopted there was nothing more than a tiny village. Moscopole or Moschopolis seems the same to me. I agree with Guil's initial proposal to move it to Moschopolis since the choice is between Moschopolis/Voskopoji.Alexikoua (talk) 19:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Just a note, the "official standard form" is irrelevant as far as wikipedia is concerned. We go by what reliable sources go by, not any "official" forms. --Athenean (talk) 19:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Are you sure that the name "Voskopojë" wasn't used in the 18th century, by Albanian speaking locals? I'm not surprised the Greek name Moschopolis shows up more frequently in older literature, Greek was the language of the church and education in the southern Balkans then (also in Ohrid, for instance). Anyway, what's more relevant is under what name the place is referred to in contemporary English. Google Scholar is undecided (also if you count all M-versions together, it's 24 vs. 21). There are far more hits in Google Books (652 since 1959), I checked the hits of the past 5 years Google Books, these are the results:
  • Moscopole 1
  • Moschopolis 14
  • Moschopole 1
  • Voskopojë/a 14
  • Moscopolis 0
  • duplicate 10
  • not about town 10
  • not in English 15
My confirmed conclusion: English usage is evenly divided between Moschopolis and Voskopojë/a. Markussep Talk 20:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
As far as I've checked, pre 1978 bibliography mentions only the M- version [[4]] [[5]], the V- version appeared 30 years before according to googlebooks.Alexikoua (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Do I have to remind you the famous A handbook called faith? Βιβλιάριον καλούμενον πίστις: Αναγκαίον εις κάθε απλούν\nάνθρωπον βεβαιωμένου από Προφήτας, Ευαγγέλιον, Αποστόλους, και\nάλλους σοφούς Διδασκάλους. ___ / Συνταχθέντες παρά του εν\nΙερομονάχοις Νεκταρίου Τέρπου εκ της θεοφρουρήτου Χώρας Βοσκοπόλεως\nΣυνεργεία δε του εντιμωτάτου Κυρίου Χατζή Μιχάλη Γκούστα εκ της\nαυτής Πόλεως. Νυν πρώτον τύποις εκδοθέντα, και επιμελώς διορθωθέντα\nπαρ' Αλεξάνδρου Καγκελλαρίου. [6]. Strange you don't remember! See Alexikoua's [7] Guildenrich (talk) 00:54, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Obvious it isn't in googlebooks. What's the meaning of that? New proposal to Voschopolis? Actually it says 'χώρας' not 'πόλεως', suppose it includes the entire surrounding region, which had gained an autonomous status under a Sultan decree.Alexikoua (talk) 09:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I think the discussion was whether the name Voskopojë/a was used in the 18th century. I can imagine Google hasn't scanned every scrap of paper from the Balkans, but I did find some older books: 1924, 1916, 1875 (spelling variant Voskopolje), 1875 (spelling variant Voskopole). If the V-version is really a 19th century development (which I doubt), that's not a binding reason to use the M-version for the article title, but it could mean that in 18th century context the M-version should be used. Consider e.g. Pressburg vs. Bratislava, Constantinople vs. Istanbul. Markussep Talk 16:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Guild. has become very disruptive in his edits, seems his first block had the opposite results. The move to 'Voschopolis' is imposible.Alexikoua (talk) 17:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say I wanted the page moved to Voschopolis. I want it to be moved to Voskopojë/Voskopoja, or Moschopolis (second choice). Guildenrich (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Bla bla bla, as usual

Guildenrich (talk) 15:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

What does that mean? Can someone please translate as Guildenrich has been banned? sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 15:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It refers to the village as Voskopolis in Greek as opposed to Moschopolis. I think there's no doubt though that the most common name for the village in Greek is Moschopolis.--Ptolion (talk) 15:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Metropolis

It seems that a number of sources say that it was a Metropolis: [[8]] [[9]] [[10]] [[11]] [[12]] And of course a 60,000 large city in the 18th century: and second largest city in the Balkans that time "was" a metropolis.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

The 60k is the true Metropolitan Legend. The city had 25-30k inhabitants See Gjurmime Albanologjike (which says that Athens and Belgrade at that time had 20k, so it's Ok I guess. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:31, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Even with 20,000, it was a huge urban center of that time. Only a few Balkan cities were that large, since we are talking about 17th century pre Industrial revolution era. By the way since we have plenty of English speaking sources, non-english sources (and especially stalinist ones) as per policy are not preferred.Alexikoua (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
The term 'metropolis' in the sense of 'very large city' is vague and not terribly helpful. The term 'metroplis' in the sense of 'seat of a metropolitan bishop' is well-defined and would be relevant in a Religion section. I have no idea if Moscopole was a metropolis, archdiocese, or whatever either in its heyday or today, however. --Macrakis (talk) 21:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
It was a metropolis of the Vlachs (Aromanians), and as such the overwhelming majority of the mainstream bibliography uses this term (today as I know it's just a tiny village, nothing to do with Balkan's second largest city in the 18th century)Alexikoua (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Moreover, the term Metropolis, is also related to the Aromanian diaspora, which originated from Moscopole (the term has the same meaning of the ancient Greek metropolis here).Alexikoua (talk) 21:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

What's the meaning of the ancient Greek metropolis Alexi? --Sulmues Let's talk 15:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Presumably this refers to Moscopole as the "mother city" of the Aromanian diaspora, on the analogy of ancient Greek colonies. But as far as I know, Moscopole did not send out colonies. And anyway, using the word 'metropolis' to describe Moscopole as a center of emigration makes the article less, not more, clear. Perhaps some clearer formulation can be found? --Macrakis (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Referenced Elsie's review of Peyfuss: It's said to have contained 20-50k.--Sulmues Let's talk 15:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

@Makrakis, there are dozens of books that name Moschopolis Aromanian metropolis [[13]]. Can you please check at least one before you continue with this discussion? Saying that all this meanstream bibliography is useless isn't something reasonable.

@Sulmues, can I ask why you removed the 60,000 claim?Alexikoua (talk) 19:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua, these Google search counts don't prove much here. By this technique, we should call Moschopolis a village: [ moschopolis metropolis ]: 26; [ moschopolis city ]: 157; [ moschopolis town ]: 190; [ moschopolis village ]: 212. So we need better arguments. In particular, what exactly is being claimed by calling Moschopolis a "metropolis"? --Macrakis (talk) 20:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually Peyfuss adopts the 70,000 claim. Also he says that Albanian historians claim that the population was 20,000 or lower [[14]].Alexikoua (talk) 20:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Can't see the full context of Peyfuss though. Elsie we can see in full. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
It's a well known book, actually all estimates are from 50,000 to 70,000. Albanian authors tend to minimized the number (per Peyfuss).Alexikoua (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Um, you are misreading the German. The snippet you point to above actually says "...The truth may be closer to this number [sc. 3500] than to 70,000. Albanian historians estimate the 18th-century population of Moschopolis at 5-7000 or 15-20,000. Moschopolis was certainly not among the largest Balkan cities of the 18th century". --Macrakis (talk) 22:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

You are right, this part: [[15]] gives the estimates of several authors.Alexikoua (talk) 22:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

And Winnifrith, a specialist on the Aromanians adopts the 60,000 claim[[16]]. However, none can be sure about the city's exact population number that time.Alexikoua (talk) 22:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

this edit seems to be of another opinion. The statistics on the bottom are clearly clashing with what the main text is saying currently. No one can be sure but we have to think about how many people were served by 24 churches. The number in my opinion is between 10k and 20k. --Sulmues Let's talk 13:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I suggest we create a section about these estimates. No official data existed that time, although 18th cent. writers and travelers (like Thunmann) adopted the 60,000 number. I've also found some exaggerated estimates of 200,000 [[17]]. I believe all this stuff should fit in a section.Alexikoua (talk) 20:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
That's fine with me. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Re the word "metropolis" -- in looking over the various sources cited in Talk and in the article, it becomes pretty clear that most of the uses of the term "metropolis" are in the sense of "mother country" or "homeland" (from the perspective of an emigrant or colonist), not in the sense of "very large city". This is especially clear in the Gilles de Rapper article, which is written by a French-speaking person and includes many uses of French terms. Other uses in the cited sources are referring to metropolis in the sense of the chief town of the Aromanians or of the region. In any case, I have tried to be more precise in the use of words -- 'metropolis' is too ambiguous, I think. --Macrakis (talk) 21:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

"Literature"

Is the book by Ben Blushi [18] "literature"? Seems more like a non-notable, pop culture anti-Muslim polemic. I also note that the novel itself is used as a ref, which is rather comical. Since I already know what the usual suspects are going to say, I'd be more interested in the opinion of neutral editors. Athenean (talk) 21:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Although you might not need my opinion, I doubt that many people have read the book. I have. It's a fictional book about characters of Voskopoje. The plot of the book spans for two centuries and evolves around the city. The artistic value in my opinion is not one of the highest: Ben Blushi, although son of a very notable children's writer, Kico Blushi, doesn't seem to be at the heights of his father in literature, and seems more versed in politics (he is number two of the Socialist Party of Albania (after Edi Rama)). That's just my opinion, though. Still the book's main character is the city of Voskopoje/Moscopole and the description of the city's belle epoque and its decline. It describes how the first people of Moscopole started to become Muslim and how internal wars between Muslims and Christians led to the destruction of the city. The controversy that the book generated was clearly notable both nationally and internationally. --Sulmues Let's talk 13:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Moscopole has been the main topic for hundreds of books/media through the last 200 years. The current section is the definition of pov since it mentions just one work, and should go as per wp:advertisment.Alexikoua (talk) 10:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Why should it go Alexi? Give me other examples of literature on Moscopole and, if possible, enter them in that paragraph. It's not that we have hundreds of fictional books on the town and we should get rid of the bad ones. IMO it is notable and verifiable and should stay. --Sulmues Let's talk 13:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually this is the definition of pov: All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This isn't all but the tiniest fraction you could find.Alexikoua (talk) 13:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I removed. If it's such a big deal, let's keep the poorest state of art. --Sulmues Let's talk 13:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Pics

Can someone do pics mgmt here? I don't want to stir up any controversy. --Sulmues Let's talk 16:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

bravo sulmues the change of voskopoja to moscopole in historical context is laudable..87.202.53.82 (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Although I might have been of a different opinion in the past, and the consensus might change in future, for now in my opinion we should keep Moscopole throughout the article. It's the name in Aromanian and the city gained its notability in the 18th century, when it was mainly a Vlach city. In addition per respect of what the Vlachs have given to Albania (and Greece for that matter), we should conserve the Aromanian name. --Sulmues Let's talk 13:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Nationalistic future plans for wikipedia... That's very interesting, please read wp:what wikipedia is.Alexikoua (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not saying that I will change opinion. I'm saying that consensus of other editors might substitute my opinion. --Sulmues Let's talk 23:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
That's what you exactly did on talk:Panajot Pano, when a troll appeared and you supported him. This doesn't mean that this is constructive: following trolls and support the 'hidden' pov.Alexikoua (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, get the facts straight and take the blinkers off your eyes. No one told me to take off all Voskopoje and substitute it with Moscopole. Panajot Pano has nothing to do with Moscopole. --Sulmues Let's talk 03:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Great edit by Athenean. --Sulmues (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

[19].--Sulmues (talk) 18:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, galleries are a bit depreciated. Be sure to read this before making an attempt at one. Best. --Laveol T 18:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone brought some pics of a festival with no info on it. I suggest to remove them and potentially include them into an article on the festival, because they are misleading on the city. All I see is the Macedonian flag, which has little to do with the Vlach town. Next thing you know we'll see the flags of Albania and Greece. --Sulmues (talk) 11:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I asked User:Yioryi what those pictures were about, I copied his reply below. I suppose we can keep (some of) the pictures, given a bit of context. That is, if this festival was relevant to the town (recurring, usually held in Moscopole, notable).
[copied from User talk:Markussep] Hello! This festival was organised by MAKEDON / ARMAN council. It reprezent the most important festival of Macedonians/Armans/Aromanians/Vlachs culture. They proclaimed there as AUTOCHTONOUS PEOPLE in BALKANS and minority in every place in the world, and also as DESCENDENTS OF ANCIENT MACEDONIANS. (Yioryi (talk) 08:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC))
I've removed the pictures, they are completely irrelevant with the article by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 20:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Yioryi please feel free to start an article on the festival: the pics you posted are misleading. --Sulmues (talk) 20:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't see why such pictures are relevant with this article. They can be added on 'Symbols of Republic of Macedonia' or something like this (Descendants of Ancient Macedonians?).Alexikoua (talk) 08:15, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

First destruction (1769)

According to this article of Albert Kotini, Eqerem Bej Vlora has written in his memories how the Dangellia region people destroyed Moscopole because the city hadn't paid protection taxes to them for 4 years. Someone should find what book exactly, because the article writer doesn't fully cite. --Sulmues (talk) 21:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

In fact the article current reads in the lede: "Historians have attributed the decline of the city to a series of raids by Muslim Albanian bands, who destroyed the town in 1769 following the participation of the residents in the preparations for the Orlov Revolt in 1770[4]," which comes from Mikropoulos. --Sulmues (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a conflict of sources. Kotini seems to endorse Vlora. --Sulmues (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. What's the problem with the 'participation in the Orlov revolt'?Alexikoua (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Just two historians disagreeing and giving different versions. --Sulmues (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Which? Eqerem Bey isn't a historian [[21]].

Also there was not a one day destruction but a 3 month long wave of destruction at 1769 (see Kekridis). A very detailed approach is also here [[22]].Alexikoua (talk) 21:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually Kotini is not excluding the hate of the locals versus the filorussians. He is adding to it the history that the locals sorrounding Moscopole had not been paid for 4 years (because the pasha of Vlora, Ngurresa had already promised protection to the traders), and that was another reason why they felt entitled to attack, and the Sultan couldn't protect on time. I am not saying that we have a RS: the article is not well sourced. I'm just prepping the terrain for when we'll have "Tragjedia e Voskopojës" from Dhori Falo, which will most likely include a similar background. Unfortunately it is not on google books yet. --Sulmues (talk) 21:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure, we have plenty of material in googlebooks about this event (I mean english speaking material).Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually I found it [23]. And it is in Aromanian. This is a rarity, English sources will start picking up from Falo. --Sulmues (talk) 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. Consensus appears to be to leave this here and split out the appropriate material into a new article. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Moscopole → Voskopojë – Name is only used by aromanians, the greek name is here even more logic than the aromanian name. Afcourse these article deserves the Albanian name, if we start adding everywhere an other not even official minorty langue to cities all Albanian names will be lost and will turn it in a mess, please move because now it is unaccepteble Vinie007 18:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Seems this talk page is full of move requests from Moscopole to Voskopoja/e, but without precise arguments to support this. According to history the site, once a prosperous metropolis was already a insignificant tiny village before it became part of Albania (1920s). In general Moscopole is considered an Aromanian metropolis, as such it's mentioned in literature, not as a tiny mountain village that is today.Alexikoua (talk) 20:16, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Comment than for the same reason we can move Preveza → Prevezë and Ioannina → Janina. Today there are only some Chams living in Greece but once a prosperous metropolis of Chameria --Vinie007 14:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid this isn't the place for extreme wp:or. Please focus on the specific move request.Alexikoua (talk) 16:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree, for that reason i give a neutral comment --Vinie007 13:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose We've been over this several times in the past. "Moscopole", mostly for historical reasons, appears to be the most common name in reliable English language sources. Athenean (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Move Compare:

and:
There are similar forms: Moschopolis, Moscopolis,[[24]] that outnumber Voskopoja/e by 3 to 1 at gbooks.Alexikoua (talk) 19:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
  • NOTE that Moschopolis includes not much english books, most are french, spanish or greek books.

--Vinie007 19:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Lets take only the english results:
  1. Moskopole, which " was a cultural and commercial center of the Aromanians " with population number estimated between 3.500 and 70.000. According to this article Moskopole was abandoned and destroyed with only six churches and one bridge survived
  2. Voskopoja, a small municipality in Korçë District with "a population of 2,218" in 2005--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:58, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree --Vinie007 20:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Ok: Moscopole for the once prosperous metropolis-now a small village & Voskopoje for the present municipality (which includes a number of villages). However, I'm afraid that the article isn't big enough to justify a seperation: we are talking about a village not a capital city like Belgrade.Alexikoua (talk) 20:58, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
As far as I can see, there is no need for removal of a few sentences about municipality of Voskopoje out of this article. On the contrary, they should probably remain in the article to explain that territory of the old city belongs to the existing municipality of Voskopoje. Splitting should be probably performed by creating the new article about municipality and copying a few sentences about Moskopole into "Background" section and copying all sentences about municipality into the main body of the article. Template Not to be confused with should be added to both articles.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:10, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree with Antidiskriminator's Solomonian proposal. It is both fair and represents the subject accurately, since the Ottoman town was manifestly of a different nature to the modern village.Constantine ✍ 06:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
To be precise the new article (Voskopoje), per Antid. proposal, will be about the administrative division (community) which incorporates a small number of villages. Something I find much better.Alexikoua (talk) 11:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment

If we're going to split this article, I suggest we do it like Constantinople/Istanbul. The Constantinople article covers the history of the city between 3rd century AD and 1453. The Istanbul article gives short summaries of the history of Byzantium and Constantinople, and gives detailed information on the period after 1453. For Moscopole/Voskopojë the split could be around 1800. Some sections could be in both articles, e.g. the architecture section (some of the churches are still there, and are a prominent feature of the village). Another option is to keep everything in one article and add good naming and demography sections. Markussep Talk 07:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

A good split in this case would be year 1916, where the last massive destruction occured, or 1944, were also a number of destructions of cultural monuments during WWII occurred, but there isn't much to add about the modern small mountain village: It's remaining cultural monuments are of religious character and during the period 1945-1991, religion was prohibited in the region.
It would be a better idea to expand it first.Alexikoua (talk)
I agree that expanding the article is better. Markussep Talk 16:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I disagree that the article be split. The comparison with Constantinople/Istanbul is inappropriate. The city was a predominantly Vlach settlement, and so is today. There has been continuity of the Vlach ethnicity, although the city has lost its splendour of one time, the main reason being that of having been overshadowed by Korce. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 03:38, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
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