Talk:List of transgender people/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

In fact the whole article is a bit of a nonsense in its use of vocabulary. The words 'woman' (and 'man') are used throughout - presumably to mean someone who was born as a woman (or man) unless the context requires otherwise - yet exception was taken when the word woman was used of Julie Hesmondhalgh. The list, in general, does not tell you in what way any individual was transgendered, so why argue particularly for just one character?

Excuse me? Have you read the article? "Woman" is used several times to describe transwomen, in other words, women who were not born with the body to match. Same with man. Where "woman" is used to describe the physical sex, it is clear from the context. (As in Billy Tipton, woman who lived as a male jazz musician). So obviously, it is necessary to state that in this case a cisgender woman is meant. Not to mention that calling somebody "cisgendered" is hardly a way to describe how that person is transgendered. The two are mutually exclusive, and there is only one way to be cisgendered. Either you are or you are not. Sorry, but your constant removal, each time with a new non-argument, starts to resemble vandalism. -- AlexR 18:55, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This article, as written, is a complete farce. Worse than being useless, it might be construed as "disinformation." By lumping together a half dozen different catagories under one name, it promotes confusion and renders the term "transgendered" meaningless. It is a random list of people who have, for various time periods, and for quite disparate reasons, behaved in some manner that, in our time and culture, is more usually associated with the other sex.

This list is an inane mish-mash.

Thor once wore women's clothes as a disguise.
Milton Berle got into drag to get laughs.
James Barry petended to be a man for job opportunities.
Ed Wood was a transvestite.
Harvey Fierstein is a homosexual.
Christine Jorgensen was a transsexual.

It is ridiculous to even list the first two. One wonders how Jeanne D'Arc escaped notice. Perhaps she will soon appear. After all, she didn't go into battle wearing a frilly dress and riding sidesaddle. Had this been written 75 years ago, would any woman who ever wore slacks have made the list?

In an earlier exchange Martin wrote,

Some people use transgender as a catch-all term for crossing of gender boundaries. Some people use transgender to specifically refer to be people between genders. Thus the term has two meanings. Neither meaning is "incorrect".

This is pure garbage. Just because "some people" misuse a term, that does not give their misuse legitimacy. That is rampant "Humpty-Dumptyism," where words mean whatever the speaker idiosyncratically decides they mean.

Conflating transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, homosexuals (not specified, but listed), mixing them together and adding in people wearing disguises or costumes, does a real disservice. This article should be replaced with a disambiguation page pointing to the individual category lists. Thank you. B00P 09:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

lifestyle

In presenting this list, we do not mean to imply that the fact that these people being transgender makes it a more or less valid lifestyle or condition -- that would be a clearly bogus argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad vericundiam (see logical fallacy).

I don't think this is helpful. For one thing, I don't think there's any language in the page that implies the contrary; a fortiori, I think the way it's worded sounds actually hostile, achieving the opposite of its stated intent. Perhaps we could come up with a different way to word it. - Montréalais

I copied it from listing of noted atheists (and similar pages). I think the point does have to be made, but by all means mess around with the wording... -Martin (aka Lucinda)

I had a bit of trouble leaving Milton Berle on this list, myself. -- Zoe

Milton Berle? How the heck did he make it onto the list?

I don't even know who Milton Berle is...

Milton Berle

I just changed Milton Berle from "drag queen" to "drag comedian", but don't you think there needs to be some analytical thought used in applying present-day categories to people from the past? Some of the people on this list, probably including Milton Berle, never heard of transgendered anything. Ortolan88

If transgendered includes transexuals, cross-dressers (homosexual and heterosexual), women who joined medieval armies, Molly Pitcher, hermaphrodites, and drag comedians, meaning no disrespect, it is not a rigorous category.

I'm hesitant to continue this discussion because my questions about rigor on lists have had a way of getting out of hand (a mere mention of the word "disambiguation" on of the football talk pages started a discussion that rivals the medieval doctors in complexity, prolixity, and passion), but maybe a broader introduction to the list about how gender and gender-identified clothing are fluid categories, and how many people through the ages have jumped from one category to another would help. When we say "People who have been transgendered", who "transgendered" them? Ortolan88

transgender/transsexual/and transvestite

This page is confusing transvestite, transgender, and transsexual. Susan Mason

In what way? Martin

In that its a list of transgender/transsexual/and transvestite persons, but is only called "list of transgendered people" Susan Mason

Transgender can be construed as a catchall term. - Montréalais

It is somewhat incorrect to do so. Susan Mason

Some people use transgender as a catch-all term for crossing of gender boundaries.

Some people use transgender to specifically refer to be people between genders.

Thus the term has two meanings. Neither meaning is "incorrect". Martin

Transgender is widely accepted as an "umbrella" term which loosely includes all whose gender runs in some way contrary to stereotypical heterosexist expectations. It is widely accepted as such, and as inclusive of such categories as "transsexual", "transvestite", "genderqueeer" and much more. That said, the title of this page - "List of transgendered people" - is problematic. We are not "transgendered", we are "transgender". Transgender is a characteristic, not something that was applied to us or which befell us. One is not "gayed", "lesbianed", "maled" or "femaled"; nor is one "transgendered". - Nancy Nangeroni GenderTalk

Articles required and separate lists?

I dropped the line in the heading that said only those with their own wiki articles were listed, because I just added some who do not yet have articles, but for whom I will write articles (although Rene Richards was already listed earlier without her own article). I will reinstate the wiki-requirement line as soon as I get around to writing up those on the list now, with the exception of the few drag performers I added from the GLB list. I have a personal…distaste for drag performers and I feel it would be unfair and ill-advised for me to attempt to write articles on those people. If they cannot be filled out, I will remove them again. If anyone else wants to start some of these missing articles, that’d be really great too. : )

Perhaps it would be worth listing them seperately? You could use a header for each list... Martin

I'm sorry, Martin, I must be having a blonde day. I'm not sure what you mean, list what separately? Do you mean a heading for TG's, for drag queens, etc.? If that's what you mean, I can sorta see the logic behind it, but I just don't want to be the one to do it. It could be construed as divisionist or biased and that could get catty pretty fast, don't you think? Paige

I was thinking of one list for "modern" TGs, and another list for historical/mythological TGs... Martin 08:28 30 May 2003 (UTC)

Nice work :) Martin

Nice idea in the first place, Martin. It looks a little better this way, I think. Paige

Gwen Araujo

Was Gwen Araujo TS? Of course that depends on one's definition of TS...

How on earth did Kate Bornstein stay off this page for so long? :)

Gwen Araujo was a pre-op TS at the time she was murdered.Rickyrab 03:52, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Please leave out the "pre-op" designation. The shape of a person's genitals is a personal issue of no concern to any who are not intimate with that individual. As such, its use is insulting to all transsexuals, implying that we ought to be categorized by the shape of our genitals or whether or not we have subjected ourselves to assimilationist surgery. It also presumes that surgery is our normative destination, which is it most surely not. - Nancy Nangeroni GenderTalk

var

Source for Sara Davis Buechner: http://www.tgguide.com/soapbox/news/042.htm
Tualha 06:23, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)

Anyone know if Roberta Cowell is still alive? Can't find much about her on the web. -- Tualha 15:58, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I heard that she had died, and that he had reverted to wearing male dress towards the end of her life

Achilles and Heracles and again, seperate lists

Are Achilles and Heracles really "transgendered"? Achilles, at least, was only disguising himself to get out of the Trojan War. It's not like he did it as a lifestyle choice, and I don't think you can say is "known" for that. Adam Bishop 03:34, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a separate list of people who cross-dressed temporarily, or for reasons of disguise (however, I agree with the above comments that classification may be tricky). Bonnie Prince Charlie would be another name to add to such a list. --David Edgar 07:53, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think these people who clearly did so only for a limited time and for a definite purpose, which has nothing to do with transgender, should at least get a seperate heading. It should also be mentioned that it is a rather common behaviour, including many many women who cross-dress in times of war, often to escape rape. Of course, we have few names here and there are not all that many famous people among them, either. But nevertheless, it happened (and still happens).
Maybe a list of historical people would not be a bad idea, because for historical people one always needs a warning; compare Talk:Elagabalus. -- AlexR 13:20, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Alexis Arquette

Alexis Arquette should probably be in the list, as she has announced plans for a complete gender reassignment (not to mention intending to film the whole process for a documentary). DanaJohnson 02:37, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hatshepsut

The article:

Transgender, for the purposes of this article, is an umbrella term that can include transsexuals, transvestic fetishists, cross-dressers, intersexuals, drag queens, drag kings and others.

Hatshepsut, female Pharaoh of Egypt who wore male clothing and even a false beard

Hatshepsut fits none of those definitions (except possibly other) so therefore to say she was a Transgender is untrue. Hatshepsut wore males clothing for the mere fact that it was a uniform. Now some historians (I'm thinking Gardner here) do say she was a transvestite, but he is heavily biased against Hatshepsut (and says her being one as a bad thing).

If you are going to count every person who wore a uniform people wore in their profession, I would like to see every single notable actor (especially from Shakespears time) on the list due to the fact that in plays men had to dress up as women. Which I think, to do so, would be ridiculous. Hatshepsut was 100% female, she didn't consider herself male. It's just Pharaohs were traditionally male, so she had to wear their clothing to be a pharaoh.

I agree in this case, as far as I know, there is no reasonable evidence that Hatshepsut was in any way transgendered. If one considers her doning ceremonial beards as cross-dressing (which is stretching the definition a bit) than it is clearly a cross-dressing out of necessity, and, as far as I know, it was the sole "male" item she wore. So indeed, she should be removed, unless somebody else has other, substantiated information.

BTW, if she went with the fasion of the time, did she have any hair to cut short in the first place? --AlexR 13:33, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Good question Alex (about the hair thing) and I have no idea actually. I removed Hatshepsut from the list (I really felt she didn't belong). However there is a comment about it here and if people feel she should be added back I definitely don't mind discussing it. If a "controversial transgenders" section is created (a list of people who some believe they were a transgender while others don't) she should definitely be added then.--John Lynch 13:10, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Pope John II

Is there any evidence to support this claim? Suggestion that he was or is a cross dresser is potentially offending for Catholics and Christians in general and should be therefore backed by evidence or removed.

Depends how you look at it. The legend of "Pope Joan" certainly exists, and has existed for a very long time. (It would be a cross-dressing "she", though, not a "he", at least physically speaking.) There is not proof for hir actual existance, though, but that is already stated. I can not see what could be possibly offending by simply telling people that this legend exists, because it definitely did since the 15th century, and there was a bestseller book about hir a few years ago. So s/he is definitely worth mentioning. -- AlexR 22:16, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for raising that issue – I misread the page and thought it is a claim about the current Pope, John Paul II. AndyBrandt 23:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dead trannies are unoffensive? Hyacinth 18:25, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And what is your point? The info we are arguing about is irrelevant - the transsexual is the character, why comment at all about the actress, let alone use irregularly formed neologisms to describe her? Nor do I accept that a list of transgendered people will only be read (or should only be read) by people who are 'in' with transsexual jargon, or who want to know a lot about transgender issues - I came to this page by accident, for instance, and as Hyacinth noted, people come to encyclopaedias to learn what they do not know. As a compromise, I wouldn't revert if you added 'played by Julie Hesmondhalgh, and then anyone interested in her could find out about her. Finally, I note that there are (quite properly) links to lists of transgendered issues at the bottom, so those who are interested in them can find out more there. jguk 05:05, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Making the article intelligible

Have removed the word cisgendered as it is a pretty much unknown neologism (only 42 unique hits in google if you exclude wikipedia and its mirrors), is a word that most people have never heard of, and because it appears to be added purely as a link to encourage people to use the word (and so is POV). jguk 05:53, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is also POV in omitting the adjective as it can be construed to imply that a transsexual woman is not a woman. Is the term "non-transsexual" ok with you? Dysprosia 08:27, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Uh, eh, what is POV supposed to mean here? Cisgender is the opposite of transgender, and funny, but when I searched Google for cisgender or cis-gender, I got 690 hits. It is also used widely in newer literature, so how can ot be POV? And of course Dysprosia is right in that there needs to be something indicating that the woman is not a transwoman, because, obviously, saying plainly "woman" clearly implies that transwomen are not women. And that is clearly POV. I do disagree with "non-transsexual" though, because non-transsexual can mean a lot of things, including all non-transsexual transgendered women, which is clearly not meant, either. Sorry, "cisgendered" is the right word, and if jguk never heard of it, that does not make it POV. I'll revert, therefore, and will link "cisgender". I'd appreciate a constructive debate, if necessary, and not one that does not bother with any arguments except "I am too stupid to use Google". -- AlexR 13:58, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'll still revert as it is an unusual word and few people have heard of it. Your 690 hits on google double-count a lot of websites and include all the wikipedia mirrors. And personally I'd say any word that has only unique 690 hits in google (ie more than we have here) should not be in an article - an alternative construction should be found that will be generally understood. After all, this is a list of transgendered people - not a campaign to get the word cisgendered accepted. Since (1) it would look silly to move to non-transsexual, non-transgendered woman, or an actress who was born a woman etc. etc.; (2) the person in the list is the fictional character and not the actress; the fact that the character is portrayed by a woman who was born as such probably belongs in Hayley Cropper rather than this article. I have therefore deleted the whole sentence. jguk 18:14, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is ridiculous to say that just because something isn't well known, by you and according to google, it is not encylopedic or non-NPOV. If an encyclopedia included only what you already know, what would be its purpose? Hyacinth 18:28, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hang on, I'm not saying get rid of the article cisgendered, nor was I saying that (or any other word) is non-encyclopaedic. I'm saying the main body of an article should use language that is easily understood, and that in the main means using words that are in common usage. Anyroad, I've deleted the whole sentence now, let's call it a day there. Coronation Street's just starting and I don't want to miss it:) jguk 18:34, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Excuse me if I revert again. This is a list of transgendered people, and it can therefore be assumed that the readers either already do know something about transgender, in which case chances are quite high that they understand "cisgender", or want to learn about ir, in which case using the one existing proper word makes a lot of sense. Also, Hyacinth is perfectly right - understandable is one thing, but presenting false information or no information at all seems to defy the intention of an encycloedia to me. And no, until you stop to removing information, we will not call it a day. -- AlexR 21:03, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We dont have to restrict ourselves to basic language. We aim to present an encyclopedia here - we should use whatever language we can in order to make our point. Cisgendered is linked, and so there should be no problem. Dysprosia 02:34, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And what is your point? The info we are arguing about is irrelevant - the transsexual is the character, why comment at all about the actress, let alone use irregularly formed neologisms to describe her? Nor do I accept that a list of transgendered people will only be read (or should only be read) by people who are 'in' with transsexual jargon, or who want to know a lot about transgender issues - I came to this page by accident, for instance, and as Hyacinth noted, people come to encyclopaedias to learn what they do not know. As a compromise, I wouldn't revert if you added 'played by Julie Hesmondhalgh, and then anyone interested in her could find out about her. Finally, I note that there are (quite properly) links to lists of transgendered issues at the bottom, so those who are interested in them can find out more there. jguk 05:05, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is that in response to my comment? Please indent properly to reflect this. Regardless of whether the information is relevant or not, you had made the point that the use of the term "cisgendered" would not be easily understood, and I was mentioning that we don't necessarily have a responsibility to use "basic" terms when more possibly accurate terms exist also. Dysprosia 05:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The information is not irrelevant, on the contrary. Usually, until now, transwomen are played by cismen on screen. Having one played by a woman is definitely a step forward in accepting the gender of transgender people. I might also add that I'll go for an RFC, and if we don't get comments (these subjects tend to make many paople uncomfortable, or at least silent) I guess mediation is the only way out. I sincerely doubt that you want to go there, since you have no point to make. -- AlexR 15:04, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I personally do see jguk's point: cisgendered IS a fairly newly coined term and not in wide use. This does hurt the readability of the article. However, there are points in the other direction. As I understand it, the term was coined precisely because there was no previously existing word for the concept. It has no exact synonyms with wider use. If it were to be replaced, it would have to be replaced with a (possibly rather long and awkward) phrase, not a single word. We use technical terms within an encyclopedia where they are necessary, and this seems that it may be one. In Wikipedia, this is made easier because the word can be made a link to its own definition, so anyone unsure of it can find out. —Morven 17:58, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

For purposes of the readability, indeed, intelligibility, of this article, it is apparently necessary to refer to surgically altered men and women as women and men respectively and therefore it is probably necessary to use some term such as cisgendered to refer to members of the vast unaltered majority. If cisgender is to be used, however, it should be explained, briefly, in this article. I believe it would be best to provide a glossary of terms else we all go mad trying to figure out just exactly what is being discussed here. I can't quite remember which ones are transwomen and I certainly don't have the ability to parse cismen, etc. without assistance. Ortolan88 22:23, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm... there are a few problems with what you write:

One is surgically altered men and women. Now what is that supposed to mean? Sounds like any people who had some kind of plastic surgery, the mayority of whom would not be transgender, while not all trans-people had it, either. So while I assume that you mean transpeople, surgery does not have much to do with being transgender. Most (but not all) transsexual people have some kind of gender reassignement surgery, and many, but far from all non-transsexual transgender people (and many intersex people, many of those against their will), but it seems to be highly useless as a definition.

We can not explain each and every word that somebody might not understand, certainly not in a list. That is what links are for, especially when the definition can be infered from the context. That is the case here. The List of transgender-related topics, which is equally linked, or the categories, can be used as a glossary, too. The terms are often a bit too complicated for a short glossary, too.

As to remembering which are "transwomen" and which are "transmen", it seems to me (not just in this case) rather strange that it should be hard to remember. These words are (also) used as self-descriptions. Now, a person who feels that she is a women would hardly use "man" in any form to describe herself, now, would she? Therefore, transwomen are obviously those women who identify as women; and since we are talking about transpeople, has not been born in a female body. Same of course for transmen. Once you think about it for a few seconds, I don't think you have that "Can't remember"-problem any longer.

As for cis and trans - well, if your ever learned Latin, this pair of prefixes should be familiar. If you ever learned chemistry, it should be familiar, too. If neither, there are more than enough words using the trans- as a prefix or part of the word to remember: Transport: Moving from one place to another, or Transcendence: experiences that are beyond the human realm of understanding, or Transcontinental: That extends or passes across a continent; also, of or pertaining to the farther side of a continent. Cis-, on this side of is, in English, not much in use any more - however, it is a pair, and if you know one, you know the other.

Hope that helped, -- AlexR 11:26, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why not read what I said? I was arguing against those who were trying to keep cisgender out of the article. It's not a question of making it clear to me, it's a question of a clear article, and you can't have a clear article if you require readers to keep Caesar's Commentaries and Skeate's Dictionary of English Etymology in mind as they read.

First, you yourself made those remarks that required clarification, and second, the Wikipedia does not require its readers to keep anything else at hand, ir requires at most a klick of a mouse. And an article is perfectly clear if that is all that it takes to get the information needed. -- AlexR 16:09, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

When you're talking about a subject that is, if you don't know it, pretty damn arcane to the average reader, you do have to explain every word. The average common reader, even if schooled in Latin and chemistry, is going to come grinding to a halt when they encounter cisman or transwoman. Sorry. In some more enlightened future, that might not be so, but the way to get to that enlightened future is to write clear encyclopedia articles now. An encyclopedia is supposed to explain things, such as the many unfamiliar categories in this list. Ortolan88 15:59, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As I said - the word is linked, and that is all the clarification that is needed. This is a list and it would change from a list to something pretty illegible and useless if every word somebody might not understand would be explained on this page. Methinks the concept of the Wikipedia is as arcane to you as is the concept of transgender ... -- AlexR 16:09, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the part about No personal attacks and if you'll have a look at my user page or my contributions you'll find that I'm moderately familiar with how Wikipedia works. Dropping out now, I've led you to water, but I can't make you drink. If you don't think the article should make things clear, there's apparently no way to convince you that it should. Ortolan88 16:31, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In fact the whole article is a bit of a nonsense in its use of vocabulary. The words 'woman' (and 'man') are used throughout - presumably to mean someone who was born as a woman (or man) unless the context requires otherwise - yet exception was taken when the word woman was used of Julie Hesmondhalgh. The list, in general, does not tell you in what way any individual was transgendered, so why argue particularly for just one character?

Excuse me? Have you read the article? "Woman" is used several times to describe transwomen, in other words, women who were not born with the body to match. Same with man. Where "woman" is used to describe the physical sex, it is clear from the context. (As in Billy Tipton, woman who lived as a male jazz musician). So obviously, it is necessary to state that in this case a cisgender woman is meant. Not to mention that calling somebody "cisgendered" is hardly a way to describe how that person is transgendered. The two are mutually exclusive, and there is only one way to be cisgendered. Either you are or you are not. Sorry, but your constant removal, each time with a new non-argument, starts to resemble vandalism. -- AlexR 18:55, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Finally, I see from your user page and contributions list, AlexR, that transgender issues are clearly very important to you. This is a list people can stumble on who have no particular great interest in transgender issues - but maybe want to know a little about them. Do not put them off with jargon and unusual words or phraseology! Otherwise they will not follow all the links, will not read the articles you and others have contributed and go and find a part of wikipedia they can understand. Have an article here that is easily intelligible and welcoming, and many will follow the links and will read on. jguk 18:26, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it will turn you of, but I sincerly doubt that using a rare word in any article, one which furthermore is linked, so it takes one mouseclick to check what it means, will turn of many readers. Not to mention that people come to encyclopedias to learn something, so to be "turned off"; by an unfamiliar (and linked) word seems to be a bit counterproductive.

BTW, can you give me anything resembling an argument why you so much insist on having that sentence taken out of this list? What is ailing you? -- AlexR 18:55, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My argument is listed above. As far as what is ailing me - it's in the title of this talk discussion. It's making the article intelligible. I can't understand why you're attached to the word (unless you are one of those campaigning for it to have a wider circulation - in which case, it would be POV to have it). Use another word/phrasing and I'll go away. Alternatively, follow Ortolan's suggestion and offer a brief lead-in or definition of the word in this article. Persist in reinserting a generally unintelligible word without further explanation in this article, and I'll stay until a reasonable formulation is adopted. jguk 19:02, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unclear points in the article

AlexR argues above that it is necessary to note that Hayley Cropper is played by a cisgendered woman (ie a woman who was born female and is not transgendered). I have gone through the article noting other various ambiguities and inconsistencies. Please feel free to amend the article to deal with these points.

Living individuals Nadia Almada - doesn’t say male to female transsexual; April Ashley, doesn’t say male to female transsexual; Mianne Bagger, golfer, doesn’t say male to female transsexual (the term ‘transsexual woman’ itself is unclear. She would view herself as a woman. Others, including the law, in many territories around the world would still recognise her as a man; Georgina Beyer, New Zealands doesn’t say male to female transsexual; Kate Bornstein, doesn’t say male to female transsexual; Sara Davis Buechner does not say why this person is transgendered; Patrick Califia, does not say why this person is transgendered; Wendy Carlos, does not say male to female transsexual; Lynn Conway, does not say male to female transsexual; Caroline Cossey, does not say male to female transsexual; Jayne County, does not say why this person is transgendered; Candy Darling, does not say why this person is transgendered; Michelle Dumaresq, does not say male to female transsexual; Jackie Enx, does not say male to female transsexual; Bulent Ersoy, Turkish male to female?; Leslie Feinberg, does not say why this person is transgendered; Lauren Harries, does not say male to female transsexual; Harisu, whilst it implies this person is a male to female transsexual - it is unclear; Mary Ann Horton, does not say why this person is transgendered; Dana International, does not say why this person is transgendered; Eddie Izzard, does not say that Eddie Izzard is a man who was born a man; Kamikawa Aya, does not say why this person is transgendered; Taff al-Khalifa, is it female to male here, or is this inconsistent with the phrasing used elsewhere in the article?; Jennifer Jane Leitham, male to female?; Angela Morley, male to female?; Hedda Lettuce, man or woman?; Jan Morris, male to female? Or female to male?; Dee Palmer, male to female?; Grayson Perry, does not make clear that Grayson was born male; Dr. Renee Richards, male to female?; Joan Roughgarden, does not say why this person is transgendered; Jason Saffer, man or woman?; Melissa Sklarz, does not say why this person is transgendered; Sandy Stone, does not say why this person is transgendered; Margaret Stumpp, male to female?; Terre Thaemlitz, does not say why this person is transgendered; Pussy Tourette, male or female?;

2 20th and 21st century individuals. Gwen Araujo, male to female or female to male? The term ‘transsexual girl’ is ambiguous as to which; Danielle Bunten Berry, does not say why this person is transgendered; Bella Evangelista, man or woman?; Tyra Hunter, the term ’transsexual woman’ is ambiguous - male to female TS, or female to male?; Marsha P Johnson, does not say why this person is transgendered; Christine Jorgensen, male to female?; Glen Milstead, man or woman?; Sylvia Rivera, does not say why this person is transgendered; Brandon Teena, male to female or female to male? The term ‘transsexual boy’ is ambiguous as to which; Billy Tipton, uses ’woman’ unqualified to mean someone born as a woman; Ed Wood, Jr., man or woman?

3 Earlier historical or mythological individuals

Achilles, does not specify that Achilles is male; Chevalier d'Eon does not say why this person is transgendered; Christina of Sweden does not say why this person is transgendered; Roman Emperor Elagabalus does not say why this person is transgendered; Heracles, does not specify that Heracles was male; Deborah Sampson, 18th century uses the word ‘woman’ unqualified to mean a someone born as a woman; Hannah Snell, 18th century uses the word ‘woman’ unqualified to mean a someone born as a woman;

4 Fictional individuals Azure C., male to female? Is the person who plays her (assuming a her) a man or woman, etc.?; Hayley Cropper, male to female? Is the person who plays her (assuming a her) a man or woman, etc.? jguk 19:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to address some points here. Note that there is preexisting Wikipedia guidelines and convention to use self-identification (see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Identity, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sexology_and_Sexuality/Terminology, Wikipedia:Style_guide#Identity)

the term ‘transsexual woman’ itself is unclear

It is quite clear, since it has been linked, and the fact that the person has a "female" name is indication enough that the person is a woman, or likewise for men, and attempting to explain too much goes beyond the scope of the article, becomes cumbersome, and doesn't quite achieve neutrality. Using "transsexual woman" is accurate and respects self-identification.

man or woman?

Certain forms of transgender behaviour mean that the person does not view themselves as being either! One should not attempt to "explain" their birth sex, due to the self-identification guidelines above. Dysprosia 22:42, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I admit that to avoid listing out all possibilities of how a person may be described I used language in that list which would be considered imprecise by those who study and participate in discussions on transgender issues. I don't agree that the term 'transsexual woman' is clear because it is linked - there is no reason for a casual reader to believe it has a technical meaning here - particularly as the lead in to the article essentially says 'everything's all been thrown in on this list'. This could be easily remedied by improving the lead in. Also for clarity, the 'self-identification guidelines' (or at least their affect on this article) should also be described in the lead in.

You see, my point is that an article should be clearly understandable. You shouldn't have to click lots of links, have a dictionary or wikipedia's style policies open to understand it. That doesn't mean technical words should never be used, but it does mean they properly introduced.

You're right, too much information would clutter the article. (Which is why I deleted a small amount of the clutter that I had, unfortunately, added myself:) ) There should be enough to tell the casual reader who the person is and to encourage them to click on some of the names to read their own detailed articles.

Lastly, I don't think saying someone having a 'female' name is indication enough - whilst some names are distinctly 'male' or 'female', some are unclear, particularly to an international audience. We should not assume that people can recognise someone's sex from their name. jguk 23:20, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also for clarity, the 'self-identification guidelines' (or at least their affect on this article) should also be described in the lead in.

No, they shouldn't. It's a list of transgendered people, not a discussion on the language we use to describe them.

You see, my point is that an article should be clearly understandable.

This, by no means, is achievable or even desirable in many circumstances. If this were the case, each and every mathematics related article would be prefixed by a lengthy (and redundant) discussion of the supporting theory before one would even get to the subject matter! This article is similar - a discussion and explanation of the language would detract from the actual subject matter.

I don't think saying someone having a 'female' name is indication enough

I never said that it would - with the link to transsexual man or transsexual woman or transgender, this should provide enough background information to get an understanding as to why they are listed on this page. Dysprosia 01:05, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is a difference between what are clearly technical articles and articles that are not. When reading about something technical - be it a science or humanity subject, the reader accepts that more complicated terms are necessary. This is not true of non-technical articles such as this. When I've got time, I'll show you what I mean. I don't think it would mean anything more than rewriting the lead in and keeping it of the same length. jguk 06:37, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'll have a quick go at it, though I still maintain there is little need for too much "explanation". Dysprosia 07:07, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree not too much, but enough for a casual reader to be able to understand the article. jguk 07:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just seen your final tweak to the lead in, Dysprosia. All seems ok, and it looks much better now the reader is warned that words are used in a technical meaning rather than how a reader unfamiliar with transgender issues may normally understand them. Your phrasing to make it clear we are using the terminology the individual themselves uses is better than mine too. Thanks. jguk 09:01, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I should have added that I like the way the lead in is now phrased to encourage readers to look at the linked articles (why is TS different from TM/TW? what does TM or TW mean? etc. are all questions that may occur to a reader, who can now easily find the answer).jguk 09:13, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I cannot quite understand the latest edits. The first paragraph seems to imply that "transmen and transwomen" are distictively different from "genderqueer people, cross-dressers, notable drag queens and drag kings, transvestic fetishists, intersexuals who identify as transgender, and others" which is ridiculous and obviously false. Also, it is really news to me that transvestic fetishists are among transgender people. Usually they are not counted as such. Sorry, but this messes it up completely.

Sorry about that, your wording is better. I had tried to preserve the terms in the version before my edit, and wasn't thinking about that. Dysprosia 12:11, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And sorry, but for Hayley Cropper, the claim that "Unusually for a fictional portrayal of a transsexual, the character is played by an actress who is not herself transgendered." is also false. Most transwomen I saw portrayed in movies were played plainly by men, and very rarely by other transwomen. -- AlexR 12:03, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think the original statement itself is unclear. I take it to mean that it's unusual for an MTF transwoman to be played by a woman who is not transsexual. If this is what the statement means, it is incorrect. I'm thinking of several examples: a TS character who appeared on Chicago Hope, played by Mia Sara; in the movie of Jan Morris' life, she is played by Vanessa Redgrave; a recurring TS character on "Ally McBeal" was played by a female; one of the characters in Satree Lex was played by a female; Myra Breckenridge was played by Raquel Welch; the TS character in "Tales of the City" was played by Olympia Dukakis; and there are many more.

If my interpretation of the original statement is correct, then aren't we in agreement? If so, why did you revert my change of an erroneous statement? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say...? Jiawen 10:56, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dubious claims about clearly non-transgenderd people

This article lists a whole bunch of people whos transgender status is clearly wrong and others for whom it is highly speculative. This isn't a list of people who "kinda, sorta, there's a small chance, maybe" are transgender.

The ones who cross-dressed for some nefarious/deceptive purpose and not as a life style choice clearly can not be classified as transgender and should be removed from the article completely. The fact that mythological figures such as Achilles were even added in the first place says a lot about the POV pushing of the people who supported it. The only mythological one who might be considered transgenderes is Guan Yin. The real life figures who did it to disguise themselves to avoid something (e.g. military service) or even to get into something where women are discriminated against. They did it for deceptive purposes as well, so they can't really be considered transgendered.

The pope one is laughable and definitely should be removed. The one about Joan of Arc is based exclusively on an accustion from a unreliable source. If they accused her of being a witch, should we have included her in a list of witches too? Also, I'd like to see an authoritative source showing that she was even accused of it as it seems that it's most Wikipedia ripped sites and LGBT websites that site that as fact.

And what are "transvestite tendencies" in reference to Ed Wood? You need to start citing sources or I'm just going to start deleting them. That goes mainly for the historical and mythological figurse section.

Maxwell Klinger wasn't even a real transvestite, he only did that so he'd get a section 8 and get kicked out of the army. Anyone who watched the show knows he would try all kinds of crazy stuff to get kicked out under the guise of being mentally ill. This phrase describing the character is also very odd: "Although a transvestite, he loudly denied any charges of homosexuality." What's the association between the two?

Also, it appears they're using a warped definition of transgender here. I've never heard a definition that would automatically include cross-dressers as if that automatically means they identify with the opposite gender rather than just enjoying the clothes. I'm sorry, but this overly broad and incorrect definition of transgender is obviously an attempt just to make the list as long as possible.

Nathan J. Yoder 28 June 2005 21:00 (UTC)

- Within 50 minutes of making those comments the article was changed by a so called "center" (which had similar edits to an anonymous AOL user that changed the articles in *exactly* the same fashion). It is my opinion that the "Center" and that user are one on the same person. It is too coincidental not to dismiss. Your right wing POV religious rhetoric is noted. JamesBurns 29 June 2005 04:35 (UTC)
  - While I generally agree with what JamesBurns said, Njyoder's post highlights two things - a) that we need to be citing sources in cases where it isn't necessarily patently obvious, and b) that we should probably give this list a bit of thorough checking - the Klinger mention is damned good point. Ambi 29 June 2005 05:54 (UTC)
    - Njyoder pronounces:You need to start citing sources or I'm just going to start deleting them. According to a recent admin decision on Njyoder, he is not allowed to edit gender related articles. My point is, this so-called "Center" refuses to discuss any of its edits and simply does what it pleases. It doesnt it respond on its Talk page. As far as I'm aware there is no connection (yet), between these edits and Nyjoder but it is nonetheless extremely suspicious given the fact that this "Center" and Nyjoder did not become involved with this page until after a request for page protection was made by another editor. JamesBurns 29 June 2005 10:38 (UTC)

WTF are you talking about? There is no admin decision against me to not edit gender articles. I'm full allowed to edit any and all articles. Not only are you engaging in slanderous accusations, you're telling flat out lies. I'd say spreading flat out lies which have absolutely not basis in reality against other members is a violation of several Wikipedia policies, so you better be VERY careful about what you say. I strongly suggest that you retract your slanderous accusation before you further discredit yourself.Why the heck would I make changes under an alternate account when I have the full capability of doing it under this account?

Also, where have I inserted any kind of right wing or religious views here? Nothing I've said has anything to do with religion nor does it have anything to do with politics. My points are extremely valid and you only rejected them because of your ridiculous personal biases and need to push your POV. Not only are transvestites not necessarily transgendered, there are quite a few people on this list who are clearly NOT transvestites even using the description given in the article itself. I have to question how anyone thought it was a good idea to add them.

I should also note that you're being hypocritical here, you're reverting a change on the basis that it hasn't been discussed, when you yourself refuse to discuss it! I'd be very interested to know why a) non-transgendered people should be included on a list of transgendered ones and b) why transvestite is used as automatic criteria for seeing if someone is transgendered, even though there is nothing in the definition that indicates that.

Frankly, this kind of behavior is appalling. The supposedly open minded LGBT Wikipedian cliques criticize "right wing religious" people (and by right-wing religious that means anyone who doesn't agree with their extremist views) is actually one of the most close-minded groups on wikipedia, with the least likely chance of actually discussing things (as evidenced here) and least likely to consider others views. Nathan J. Yoder 29 June 2005 22:08 (UTC)

I know a number of transgendered people, both pre-op and post-op. None of them consider transvestites to be transgendered. Hayford Peirce 29 June 2005 22:28 (UTC)

That may be the case - it is, however, utterly irrelevant. You might wish to compare the articles on transgender and transvestism. "Transvestite" has so many different and often contradicting definitions that it has become a pretty meaningless term; nevertheless, several of those definitions would make the people so defined transgender. That "Transvestite" is still both a "What we are not" and an insult in many trans*-communities does not change any definitions. -- AlexR 29 June 2005 23:57 (UTC)

Nathan doesn't seem to be aware of the gender article editing prohibition. Weird. I'm not sure it's in force yet, but he should still KNOW about it, it's coming into force any moment now. Anyway, Nathan, you can't very well not know about about your personal attack injunction. I can't even COUNT the personal attacks you make above. I'm blocking you for 24 hours. Bishonen | talk 30 June 2005 00:13 (UTC)

- I'm very surprised Nathan didnt know. There has been an RBA on him for some weeks. The decision about editing gender articles was from this motion: Njyoder banned from gender and sex related articles 1) User:Njyoder is banned for one year from editing articles related to gender or sexuality. The motion was carried 5 votes for, none against, see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Njyoder/Proposed_decision. JamesBurns 30 June 2005 03:17 (UTC)

The case hasn't been formally closed yet (although a sufficient number of arbitrators have voted to close), so presumably the prohibition isn't in force yet. OTOH it's going to be, as soon as an arb takes the time to close—as I say above, "any moment now"—so it's hardly a "WTF are you talking about?". Nathan, if you're unaware of the proposed decision that James Burns links to (seriously..?), I recommend it to your attention, it's quite interesting. Note the Talk page, too. Bishonen | talk 30 June 2005 07:21 (UTC)

Brandon Teena

Did Brandon Teena consider himself 'transsexual'? Or 'transgender'? Was his stated position ever really that clear before he was murdered? And by whose account? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CKF1997 (talk • contribs) 01:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I do not know whether he ever did state anything of the kind, although I am fairly certain of it. However, given the circumstances of his life, we can at least assume that he was transgender. Whether he considered himself transsexual I cannot tell, but given that transsexual is just a sub-definition of transgender, it hardly matters. -- AlexR 19:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Pronouns

We have been having a small debate at the Leslie Cochran page, and I thought some people on this talk page might have more experience with the issues at hand. What pronouns are typically used in articles for transgendered people- their birth/physical gender, or their preferred one? Or is this just a highly individual decision? Thanks in advance for your help. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 07:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Spoiler - Tales of the City

{{spoiler}} The inclusion of Anna Madrigal gives away a major plot detail that is not revealed until well in to the story, and is part of a puzzle unfolding. It's a trashy series of books, but still, coming across this information would spoil the experience of reading it to some extent (especially the revelation of the anagram). I suggest she is removed from the list. If she is kept, at least the "mrs." should be removed from her name (no one else has a title!). ntennis 00:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

separate lists - better scope and definition

Transgender is a term without a precise definition. It is a term that ought to be abandoned IMO because of its lack of scope and precise definition.

Also I believe there should be separate, more specific lists of people in various categories. For example, if afflicted women are 'transgendered' before vaginoplasty are they 'transgendered' after vaginoplasty? Isn't the point that a woman who experiences 'gender dysphoria', i.e. transsexual dysphoria before vaginoplasty no longer has the condition after vaginoplasty?

Shouldn't women who have had vaginoplasties to cure 'gender dysphoria' have a list of their own, to clearly distinguish them from "transvestites", "crossdressers", "drag queens", "drag kings" and so on with they are not?

If the wikipedia is going to demonstrate high standards, shouldn't those standards begin with forging better and clearer language to define and categorize the conditions described in this note?

The words transsexual and transgender aren't much different from the words leper and leprosy it seems, not just in terms of stigma but also in the manner that they are used in a way the turns the afflicted INTO their condition. We don’t call HIV sufferers HIVsuals or HIV HIVism. For example, there are few other medical conditions wherein the person is referred to by their disease. Diabetes and diabetic is one of few such terms that come to mind. We don't call cancer sufferers cancerists or neoplastuals. Heart disease suffers are not called cardiosuals, heartattackists, heartattacksuals, heartfailureists, or transplantuals. Coming full circle, what was once called leprosy is now called Hanson's Disease. Hanson’s Disease is now curable with antibiotics and no longer needs to generate the fear that spawned the term leper two millennia ago. The term leper has evolved to refer not to someone with Hanson's Disease, but to describe anyone who is a social outcast. Regardless of negative connotations isn't time we called so called 'gender dysphoria' something like Jorgensen's Syndrome, and call those cured of it women who are Jorgensen's Syndrome survivors? Terms like transsexual are nearly completely uninformative because they give no information about the status of someone’s having been cured of the disease. Transgender is largely a term popularized by puritanical people, in our Judeo-Christian oppressed culture who are afraid of any word with the term sex within it.

These are social, political, medical and practical issues that our culture needs to start dealing with immediately. Women like Lynn Conway are women Jorgensen's Syndrome survivors. If Lynn Conway was a transsexual before her vaginoplasty over thirty (30) years ago, she certainly isn't transsexual anymore. Conversely, if someone is transsexual after having been transsexed, how can they be either transsexual or transsexed before the surgery?

Certainly this linguistic issue made exceed the scope of these lists, but they are pertinent here and in every article where men (FTM) and women (MTF) Jorgensen's Syndrome survivors are the subject of relevant topics.

Disinformation

I understand that this has been repeatedly raised before, but nothing seems to have been done about it.

This article, as written, is a complete farce. Worse than being useless, it might be construed as "disinformation." By lumping together a half dozen different catagories under one name, it promotes confusion and renders the term "transgendered" meaningless. It is a random list of people who have, for various time periods, and for quite disparate reasons, behaved in some manner that, in our time and culture, is more usually associated with the other sex.

This list is an inane mish-mash.

Thor once wore women's clothes as a disguise.
Milton Berle got into drag to get laughs.
James Barry petended to be a man for job opportunities.
Ed Wood was a transvestite.
Harvey Fierstein is a homosexual.
Christine Jorgensen was a transsexual.

It is ridiculous to even list the first two. One wonders how Jeanne D'Arc escaped notice. Perhaps she will soon appear. After all, she didn't go into battle wearing a frilly dress and riding sidesaddle. Had this been written 75 years ago, would any woman who ever wore slacks have made the list?

In an earlier exchange Martin wrote,

Some people use transgender as a catch-all term for crossing of gender boundaries. Some people use transgender to specifically refer to be people between genders. Thus the term has two meanings. Neither meaning is "incorrect".

This is pure garbage. Just because "some people" misuse a term, that does not give their misuse legitimacy. That is rampant "Humpty-Dumptyism," where words mean whatever the speaker idiosyncratically decides they mean.

Conflating transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, homosexuals (not specified, but listed), mixing them together and adding in people wearing disguises or costumes, does a real disservice. This article should be replaced with a disambiguation page pointing to the individual category lists. Thank you. B00P 09:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Move this article

When I moved stuff (doesn't the page look clean now ;-) I found somebody had mentioned that "transgender" vs. "transgendered" sometime in 2004. (" When we say "People who have been transgendered", who "transgendered" them? Ortolan88") I'd like to bring this up again; I personally think that this article should be a List of transgender people, without the obnoxious "-ed" at the end. Transgender was coined as an adjective, and I don't really think we say "homosexualed", or "lesbianed" or even "transsexualed", either. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This article and List of transgender people had merge tags on them (and had for a while), directing toward this article, so I merged them a few weeks ago. This article was, far and away, the more complete of the two; there was very little actual merging that I had to do. I guess I probably should have merged/redirected the other way, huh? Personally, to have the -ed or not, it doesn't make any difference to me, but then I apparently don't take quite as hard a line WRT terminology as it seems a lot of transpeople do. — Wwagner 17:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

What's "WRT"? And what does my question have to do with the fact that I am transgender? I merely suggest putting the article under a title I think is a lot better, for the reason stated. That was no criticism of your action or anything, I don't think I ever saw the List of transgender people at all. -- 18:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

My comment was not meant as any kind of attack. I'm not out to get the trans community or anybody in it - I'm trans too. But to return to the name change topic, I guess put me down for an abstain due to no preference. Oh, and WRT is "with respect to". — Wwagner 21:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

We really need to work on our communication - neither was I intending to insult or attack (or anything) you, nor you me. Which is kinda nice ;-) I also don't really take a hard line here, if I would, I would have moved the article. Guess we need a few more votes then ;-) -- AlexR 23:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've heard this objection to transgendered before; I say go ahead and move the page, as it seems you are not the only one bothered by it. However, personally I don't have any problem with the -ed, and think the "lesbianed' analogy is a wilful misreading of English grammar. "-ed" can serve a few different gramatical funcitons, one of which is simple past tense for a verb, as in "who transgendered them?", which relies on an understanding of "to transgender" as a verb, and therefore "transgendered" as a past participle. I believe people see "to transgender" as a verb about as readily as they see "to lesbian" as one — i.e. not very much. A better analogy is "the brown-haired woman"; do we ask "who brown-haired her"? A "brown-hair woman" is considered non-standard. Some compound adjectives have multiple standard forms: eg "a v-neck jumper" or "v-necked jumper". The same can be said for "an intersex/intersexed/intersexual person", and (I propose) a transgender/transgendered person. Google finds 106,000 hits for "transgendered person" and 78,400 for "transgender person"; interestingly, the ratio is reversed for "transgender people" (810,000) and "transgendered people" (444,000). ntennis 03:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Dana Moran

Is there a source about this person? I can't find anything about him/her on Google. --D-Day^{(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?}) 21:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Queen Christina?

I will only say that I find it an excessively slender thread that connects Queen Christina in any shape or form to our modern concept of transgendered people. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 13:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

my edits

oops, ignore me. I apparantly was wrong about my terminology. Reverting myself. Kuronue 01:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

David Reimer

Wikipedia has an article on David Reimer, aka John/Joan, a famous case of failed infant gender reassignment after a botched circumcision destroyed his penis. I think that there should be a link to that page somewhere on this one. Mang 23:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why? He was born as a man, identified as a man, and ended his life as a man. Rebecca 01:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

David reimer would not have qualified under DSM-IV criteria for transsexualism, as he had a concurrent intersex condition - a condition that occured through medical error (circuscision error) followed up with medical mismanagement (although, at the time, John Money was well respected, and thought he was doing the right thing.)

So no, David doesn't belong here (poor man :( ) Lwollert 08:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Grayson Perry

Grayson Perry is surely a transvestite and not a transsexual? Haydn01 15:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the impression his article seems to give. --Kiranna 07:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, and your point is...? There are other cross-dressers on this list as well. There are more facets of transgendered behaviour than just transsexuality. — Wwagner 17:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Transgender describes fetishtic transvestites, transsexuals and cross-dressers, as well transgenderists, androgynists, gender chameleons and anything in between - it's a bit of a catch-all term, I'm afraid.

I suppose the real point is should there be a List of transsexual people as oppsed to transgender.

Cheers Lwollert 08:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Section titles

It appears that the section titles need a little work; we seem to be picking up a lot of living individuals, which belong in "Living individuals" of course, in the "20th and 21st century individuals" section. It's probably just people not actually reading all of the section titles before they post (Hanlon's razor at work here), but having to move all the misplaced entries, well, it shouldn't have to happen. I have added some comments in the markup, but half the time people don't read those either. We should probably rename the 20th/21st section to something else, to denote that the people in that section are dead, but I'm not sure what it should be. "Deceased transpeople"? "Deceased individuals"? "Past transpeople"? Those are just off the top of my head, but none of them sounds very good. — Wwagner 05:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's another thought: why don't we just put everybody in one list, and include the birth year (and death year, if dead) for each entry? That's not unlike the lists of birth and death dates in each year article (see 1962, for a random example). And some of the descriptions are a little out of hand in this list; the nationality and a few of the major occupations of the person is enough. Putting the subject's life story, however abbreviated, and all their abilities, no matter how minor, is something for the article on that person, not this list. Each person's article is a mere click away, so there's no need to replicate a bunch of it here. Here are a few examples, a couple from each of the major sections of real people:

Calpernia Addams (1971-) American author, actress, and activist
Herculine Barbin (1838-1868) French hermaphrodite
Danielle Bunten Berry (1949-1998) American game designer and programmer
Chevalier d'Eon (1728-1810) French diplomat
Billy Tipton (1914-1989) American jazz musician
Stephen Whittle (1955-) British lawyer

The non-list blurb at the start of Earlier historical individuals can be moved to the top and reworked a bit, to keep that content. Comments, please? — Wwagner 00:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Living Musicians?

Do we really need this category? Lwollert 01:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It looked like vandalism, so I reverted it. Somebody who doesn't like Nickelback's lead singer, I guess. — Wwagner 01:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below, and above at #Move this article. There was already a non-trivial history at List of transgender people from an old merge, so I swapped the two histories. -GTBacchus^(talk) 06:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

List of transgendered people → List of transgender people – Everything I want to say has already been said in the above section Move this article. I'm just formally nominating this list to be moved. Kolindigo 07:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support - Appropriate simplification and goes according to WP:NAME Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 07:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Actually, can we change it to list of transsexual people? Transgendered is really too broad for term for what people who end up on this article are looking for. I don't think when people come to this article they're looking for drag kings. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 07:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- There's every possibility that somebody may very well come to this article looking for drag kings. Please read the Wikipedia policy of NPOV; limiting this list to only transsexuals seems fairly biased. The list, as it is now, reinforces the reality that the transgender community is a very diverse group, and there are many different modes of transgender expression. — Wwagner 04:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'd rather not. I'm proposing a minor name change, not a change in the subject of the list. I think transsexual vs transgender is a seperate issue. Kolindigo 04:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- RE: Dev920, It's a list of transgender people, which is FAR from limited to transsexual people. I've already suggested a seperate list above, but no-one has comented on it. I disagree this list should be deleted to make a transsexual only list, and support the name change/move Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 07:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reorganization

I've been toying around with a reorganization of this list of people; the way they're divided up now seems kinda artificial. I think we can streamline the list quite a bit by combining all the real people into one list, and have the birth (and death) years listed for each person. The fictional folks have a couple of other articles where they can be listed, most particularly Transgender in film and television and Cross-dressing in film and television - a lot of the fictional people here are already in those articles, and can probably just be removed from this list. The literature, mythology, and video game transfolk should probably go to (an)other article(s) as well, but I'm not really sure where. A new article could always be created, say Transgender in literature; the currently-existent Transgender publications doesn't quite work for that kind of information. Please take a look at the test page I've been working on and let me know what you think. — Wwagner 04:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. I disagree with the deletion of the "fictional" section though - but perhaps it would be better to merge those articles (which are essentially lists, not proper articles) into this one? THe other difference, is this list deals with "people" whereas the other articles talk about the "films" more than people.

Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I agree on the focus of those other articles, though the focus can certainly be, shall we say "redirected". :) The reason I was thinking that a split would be more practical than a merge, is that this article seems to be two lists in one right now. The list of fictional people feels kludged on to me. Don't get me wrong: I definitely think that it's useful and informative to have those fictional people listed, but I'm just not sure that this article is the best place for it. I've got a couple other ideas for arrangements of the fictitious people; I'll toy with them when I get a chance later tonight. And you (or anybody else) are certainly welcome to mess with that sandbox page if you like; that's what it's there for. — Wwagner 23:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

If you start reorganizing this, perhaps you could also start with sourcing some entries, since this list is almost completely unsourced. See also WP:BLP. Garion96 (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Started referencing, pending reorganising, at User:Lwollert/Sandbox/List of transgender people - feel free to edit there. Along the way, I seem to be sorting out a lot of the bio pages as well, when hunting reasonable citations. It's amazing how much is "General knowledge" but not actually written down somewhere (I'm thinking of Allenina) Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 03:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Progress has been good so far: over 120 references have been found between Wwagner and I (mostly er). It's at User:Wwagner/sandbox2. Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 04:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Lauren and I have finished up with the rework and referencing of this article. Our version is at User:Wwagner/sandbox2. If nobody's got any objections, I'd like to replace the current main article with the reworked version in a couple days. — Wwagner 00:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Bands or groups?

There was the recent addition of Lady (group) to this list. While they're certainly trans, and are certainly notable as a group, and each of the members would individually belong in this list (provided notability, etc.), do they belong here collectively? My gut feeling is 'no', but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it. Do other List of <blah> people articles have groups in them? — Wwagner 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Larry (Linda) Wachowski is not in the list

we should add that name to the list, it has already been confirmed, and there are a lot of reliable soucres which states that Larry wachowski is now a transsexual named Linda Wachowski. Can I add the name to the list? check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 04:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Until it's confirmed by Wachowski, it is not appropriate. As far as i can see from a fairly basic Search it's still rumors and gossip - and has been since 2003. Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 07:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

i though it was already confirmed, lol, maybe i´ll have to search more.

anyway, i´ll stay alert about wachowski and look for more info, ok? :-)check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 23:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Found something http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachowsky#Transgender_claims

We should add her i think—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.192.3.133 (talk) 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a valid source for citation. Furthermore, all the external articles linked from Wachowski brothers involving Larry's supposed transition are collections of hearsay and speculation. Until we see some sort of press release, or Wachowski posting something hirself, it's not appropriate. — Wwagner 05:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Tables

Wow. Last I checked this list it was awful - it looks great now. Does anyone object if we convert this to table format and put pictures down the side per the LGB lists? And has anyone gone through our transgendered categories and added all the people there? DevAlt 14:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't say that I'm terribly excited by the layout of the rest of the LGB lists of people. They seem awfully busy and cluttered to my eye. I am a big proponent of the KISS principle. And I don't think anybody's gone through all (any?) the trans cats for possible additions. Sounds like a job I can do in my copious spare time. :) — Wwagner 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Two people who need to be added to this list: Barbara Amesbury and Patricia Araujo. And now I've listed them here, I can remove them from the to be sorted list... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

And Jeanne Baré. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Added Amesbury and Baré. Can't find a source for Araujo. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

More:

- Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Does Ozma belong?

There has been a few years of back and forth at Talk:Princess Ozma as to whether Ozma actually qualifies as transgender, because she changes sex but does not seem to ever have transgender identity. Currently this page is inconsistent with Princess Ozma, with one person consistently reverting Category:Fictional LGBT characters -- either this page or that one should change. This could affect other fictional characters such as Ranma Saotome, although he has somewhat different issues. I am hoping to establish consensus on this one way or another at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Is_Princess_Ozma_LGBT? Please join the discussion there, since it would be nice to develop a policy on classifying fictional characters. -- Kevin Saff (talk) 00:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Courtney Act is a drag performer, not a Transgendered person.

Courtney Act is a stage name of a performer by the name of Shane Jenek. He is a gay man who is a drag queen and a performer and by having his "Drag" name on here weakens issues for Transgendered people, most of who would (probably) like to lead rather normal lives rather than appear as an over the top drag queen. Please edit this if possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.94.195 (talk) 16:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Barry Humphries

Barry Humphries is not transgender/transexual -- he is a comedian, one of whose characters is the fictitious Dame Edna -- this does not mean he is transgender. Propose to delete him from this list. --ukexpat 14:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. We do include crossdressers and drag queens on this list, and I'd say that doing comedy in drag is close enough to doing cabaret performances in drag as makes no real difference - they're performace arts, while crossdressed. Similarly, Flip Wilson's Geraldine Jones persona is in this list, though in the film and tv section. — Wwagner 17:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

OK so in that case the list should include every single male comedian or actor who has performed in a female role, including all the Monty Python team, Ronnie Barker, Ronnie Corbett, Les Dawson and countless others.--ukexpat 20:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Crossdressing/Drag/ is NOT the same as transgendered. A transgendered person sees themselves literally as something other than what they are born as. A Drag act is a "performance" and is not to be taken seriously. To include Crossdressing and Drag/Comedians in this area is damaging to Transgendered issues, please ammend this. A "regular" MTF transgendered person is unlikely to appear anything like a Drag Queen, as a Drag Queen is an exaggeration for comic purposes. A transgendered person who undergoes transition does so because it is extremely important and meaningful to them, and it is not a joke. This is highly sensitive and should be treated as so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.94.195 (talk) 16:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Crossdressing and drag are within the umbrella term transgender. You appear to be confusing transgender and transsexual. The latter are also within the umbrella of the term transgender. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 04:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Transgender versus drag and transvest

Please note that this list should not contain drag performers or transvestites as there is a major difference between drag and transgenderism; that being that drag performers and transvestites do not consistently identify themselves as the gender opposite of their chromosomes as transgendered people do.

I agree. This issue has been discussed several times on this talk page, but never resolved. Yes, "transgender" is an umbrella term, but I think the scope of this list should be limited to people who live their lives as the opposite gender to how they were born. To include drag of various degrees (from situational like John Cleese to integral like Eddie Izzard) is a long path that will result in this list becoming very long - and it also deprives those who live as another gender fair recognition as having unique identity. However, I am against the use of "transsexual" because it implies someone who has completed SRS; I think "transgender" is perfectly suitable, with the understanding that drag/transvestite persons belong on their own list. -Etoile (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Entry definitions too vague

The entry defines anyone who is: transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, androgynous, cross-dressers, transvestites, drag queens, drag kings, or hermaphroditic. Isn't that a bit unfocused? Androgynous and drag queens and trangender individual are all over the board. One could count RuPaul Charles, Ziggy Stardust, Placebo's Brian Molko and Alexis Arquette as all valid additions. I would never consider any of these people truly "transgender." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Navstar (talk • contribs) 11 May 2006

First of all, kindly sign your entries next time. Second, what now? No more "truly transsexual" wars, but now the brand new "truly transgender" ones? And you misquote -- what you list is a list of possible self-identifications, but the definition given is "people whose gender identity differs from the gender they were assigned" which most obviously is transgender. So your point was? -- AlexR 23:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a distinct difference between a person who identifies as transgender vs. a person who performs gender drag. I plan to remove all entries that, in their detail, designate the entered person as "Drag queen". Transgenderism, or gender dysphoria, is a mental condition that can have physical manifestations (dressing the way one/society perceives the lived gender to, taking hormones, election of gender reassignment via surgery-- which falls into the transsexual classification). But a person (like Shirley Q. Liquor, for instance) who is a man who dresses in drag for entertainment's sake, or for sexual pleasure, and not because it's a dire lifestyle and physical/mental health choice is NOT transgender. They are then "drag _______" or transvestites. I'm not an expert, but I lived with about 6 transgendered people at one time, and I got a crash course in the technicalities of living as a transgender person. Folks really need to do their research.--James gang

Erm, you've confused your terminology - transgenderism is not gender dysphoria. That's transsexualism. Transgenderism is a broad catchall group, which includes, as well as transsexuals, drag queens, crossdressers, and a host of similar groups. This is why they're on this list. Rebecca 03:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

That's just plain wrong. Transgenderism in most usages I've seen is synynoymous with transexualism. Either way, it's not a "broad catchall group" that's so broad as to necessarily include drag queens and crossdressers. According to Merriam-Webster's definition, transgender is "of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth." By that definition drag queens and crossdressers are not transgender if they do not identify as the opposite gender into which they were born, but rather crossdress for some other reason.

James gang is correct. Just because someone crossdresses that doesn't necessarily mean they're transgender, even it's for sexual gratification.

For example, Jeanne Baré is on this list, yet according to Wikipedia's own article on her she was born a woman and it refers to her as female throughout. It also implies she merely crossdressed for financial reasons.

I agree that the parameters for this list are too broad.--Dekker451 (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you SURE about that?

Gender identity disorder From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Gender dysphoria)

Gender identity disorder, as identified by psychologists and medical doctors, is a condition in which a person has been assigned one gender (usually at birth on the basis of their sex, but compare intersexuality), but identifies as belonging to another gender, or does not conform with the gender role their respective society prescribes to them. It is a psychiatric term for what is widely known by terms like transsexuality, transgender and (subject to debate, but full-fledged GID is present in at least some cases of) transvestism or cross-dressing.

This feeling is usually reported as "having always been there", although in some cases, it seems to appear in adolescence or even in adulthood, and it has been reported by some as intensifying over time. Since many cultures strongly disapprove of cross-gender behaviour, it often results in significant problems for those affected, and sometimes for their close friends and family members as well. In many cases, discomfort is also reported as stemming from the feeling that one's body is "wrong" or meant to be different.

See also: List of transgender-related topics

Yes, whether or not transexualism should be considered a disorder is up for debate in the psychology community, but whether crossdressing in and of itself (as distinct from transvestism) is considered a disorder is not up for debate. No psychological condition is considered a disorder unless it adversely affects one's social or work lives for for a significant period of time and the fact is crossdressing isn't a problem for many people.--Dekker451 (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

...transgenderism + gender dysphoria could manifest physically as transsexualism. The problem of including "drag" and "cross-dressing" without limits into this discussion is that the performative impulse is not rooted in "settling a score" within oneself about gender. In the case of cross-dressing, there is likely no motivation to physically change one's gender, or to live as the opposite gender, but instead, there being satisfaction in just dressing the part. There may be a fetishistic interest in dressing opposite. Or, for entertainment's sake. I doubt that transgender folks would want to have their life choice lumped in with those of folks who entertain others as caricatures of the opposite sex, etc. blah blah blah.--James gang

Transgender vs. transsexual and others

I saw that somebody had replaced a lot of "transsexual", "transwoman", "transmen" with "transgendered". It already is reverted, but reminded me whether we are really certain, in all cases where "transsexual" is used, whether "transsexual" is really the correct description (might concern other descriptions as well). I noticed for example:

Kate Bornstein, transsexual/gendered author, playwright, performance artist and gender theorist
- Given that on Kate's site she uses gender-neutral pronouns for hirself, I think it is fairly safe to say that "transsexual" is plainly wrong
Mara Keisling, transsexual/gendered, founder of the National Center for Transgender Equality. Key leader in passing several laws protecting transgender people. www.nctequality.org
- The website mentioned says: "Mara is a transgender-identified woman" [1]

So while changing "transwoman" and "transmen" to "transgendered" hardly did the article any service, some of the changes to "transgender" (forget that obnoxious -ed) seemed to have been correct. I suspect some more of the "transsexual" attributions are not quite correct, either. So I suggest we check out those again. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It is offensive to refer to TSs (mainstream women wrongly born with a birth defect giving them male parts and the need to correct it) as TGs (the political grouping and chosen lifestyle of daily cross-dressing without surgery), or to lump TSs (gender conformists) with the TGs (gender variant). Why not use what the folks call themselves? 72.11.40.181 (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Transsexuals are referred to as transgender because, as the transgender article explains, it is an umbrella term that includes transsexuals. I personally know quite a few transsexuals including some who are 20+ years post op. Not one of them objects to the term transgender. If there is a region-specific alternate definition of transgender that specifically excludes transsexuals, please provide a reliable reference for that alternate definition at talk:transgender so that article can be altered to include it. Articles such as this one would then inevitably change to acknowledge that alternate definition. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 13:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Add one more...

Please add Adam/Madeleine Blaustein, the voice actor/ress in Pokémon. RocketMaster (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC) BTW, she died. RocketMaster (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Should add Amanda Simpson, Senior Technical Adviser to the Department of Commerce, appointed by the Obama Administration and the first openly transgender woman political appointee in any administration. She is listed as such on site, but not listed here. I am newly registered, though, and do not feel comfortable with just going ahead and editing before I feel more comfortable w. culture and rules in the community. However, Simpson is widely known for her activist work in the U.S. and also fairly known abroad. Her being appointed to the role as an Obama Administration Adviser got a lot of media coverage at the time, as well. idaadara (talk) 09:57, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Maddie Blaustein was added a while back. I've added Amanda Simpson, with ref. Feel free to add items, idaadara, but make sure they have references :) You may also want to take a gander at WP:LGBT? Welcome! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Red links

Just a procedural question: should a person have a Wikipedia article before they are added to this list? It seems reasonable to me that if a person it not notable enough to merit an article, they are not notable enough to merit inclusion in this list. Thoughts? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a guideline someplace on WP for this situation, but I have this feeling people are added to the list, with a passing reference, and they have no notability otherwise. I'd be in favor of removing redlinks - maybe with a caveat that a redlink with more than one RS available could stay. Just my opinion :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

That it my thought too, with the modification that if two references are available, then there probably should be an article, which solves the problem. This question came to mind with the recent edits to the list. Thanks for the input. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 17:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that 2 good references, showing both notability and transgender status, are probably enough. i think the standard is "if there is a reasonable likelihood that an article could be written". of course, the name doesnt need to be redlinked, just needs the refs and can stay as regular text if it looks better. And on this note, would Victoria Kolakowski qualify for inclusion on this list? she is already of some small notability, and won the primary in june in california to be the democratic candidate for alameda county superior court judge. She is likely to win the position, but is she notable enough now?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

You need to add several people to the list. PHYLLIS RANDOLPH FRYE, attorney, author, activist, professor, judge Sources: Firm Website: http://www.liberatinglaw.com/ Personal Email: PRFrye@aol.com Personal Website: http://www.transgenderlegal.com/

ALLY WINDSOR HOWELL, J.D., LL.M., attorney, author, activist, professor Sources: Author Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure Annotated, 4th (Alabama Practice Series) Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/128292/22012629/productdetail.aspx AuthorTrial Handbook for Alabama Lawyers, 3d (Alabama Practice Series) Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/141476/14676777/productdetail.aspx Author Tilley's Alabama Equity, 4th Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/14525/40120977/productdetail.aspx Author Personal Injury and Torts (Alabama Practice Series) Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/2070/13503947/productdetail.aspx Author Alabama Civil Practice Forms, Fourth Edition Reference Verification http://www.lexisnexis.com/store/catalog/booktemplate/productdetail.jsp?pageName=relatedProducts&skuId=SKU6563&catId=110&prodId=6563 Biographical information http://west.thomson.com/store/authorbio2.aspx?R=128292&Product_id=22012629&MaterialNumber=22012629&AuRec=2000002021Auth Attorney verification http://www.alabar.org/directory/dirDisplay.cfm?URLId=6i2x0Z3LLg7W0PAp&-;IWes

VICTORIA KOLAKOWSKI, Judge Superior County of Alameda County, California Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Kolakowski

KATRINA C. ROSE, attorney, author, professor, historian Source: http://translegalhistory.info/ http://www.translegalhistory.info/basics/index.html

REV. ERIN SWENSON, Th.M., Ph.D., psychologist, pastor, activist Sources: http://www.erinswen.com/Counseling.htm http://www.religiondispatches.org/contributors/erinkswenson/

ALYSON DODI MEISELMAN, attorney, activist Sources: http://www.martindale.com/Alyson-Dodi-Meiselman/636044-lawyer.htm http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/20878-md-alyson-meiselman-518250.html

DIANA LYNN LANGTON, educator, spiratulist Sources: http://www.scribd.com/diana_langton

PAMELA BARRES, activist, retired Eastman Kodak executive Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gayalliance/5695849207/

VANESSA EDWARDS FOSTER, Transgender Rights Activist, Co-Founder and former President of the National Transgender Advocacy Coalition, President, Texas Gender Advocacy & Information Network Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vanessa-edwards-foster

REV. SARAH J. HERWIG, minister Sources: http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/02/10/Church_Lesbian_Wedding_Not_Violation/ http://mikefurchesreviews.blogspot.com/2010/10/interview-with-transgender-pastor.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllyHowell (talk • contribs) 17:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Few, if any of those sources count as reliable on Wikipedia. However, Victoria Kolakowski could be added now. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Redlinks redux

An edit caught my eye, so I went through and removed a number of entries with redlinks, based on previous consensus that inclusion on this list requires sufficient notability for there to be an article for that person. I noticed several people on the list who have no link: the names appear in unmarked-up text. Some have references, some do not. I'm inclined to treat the nolinks the same as the redlinks: if the person is not sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article, they are not sufficiently notable for getting listed. Feedback? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 05:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup, December 2012

I have gone through and removed a couple of people who did not have articles linked to them. My reasoning is simple: this list is intended to list notable people who are transgendered, not just anyone who is transgendered. If a person is sufficiently notable to merit a Wikipedia article, with sufficient reliable, third-party sources to substantiate both the notability and transgendered identity of the person, then please write the article first before adding the person back in.

Later today or tomorrow, I will be going through and either adding at least one supporting reference as required by the article's guidelines, or removing the entry. Thank you for your understanding. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 21:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Article titles for transgendered people

This discussion may be of interest to readers of this talk page. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"transgender in identity or behavior. "

What on earth does "transgender in behavior" mean? Tombomp (talk/contribs) 15:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Herculine Barbin

Can I ask why Herculine Barbin is listed here as a transgender person? Her birth assigned sex is consistently referenced, as she was reassigned male involuntarily and she later took her own life. Under similar circumstances we don't reference Alan Turing as an ex-gay. Trankuility (talk) 02:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Removing, on the same basis as the removal of David Reimer, per earlier discussion on talk page. Trankuility (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Date of transition

It would be nice to include at least the year that the subject came out as transgender. Skyerise (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Eddie Izzard

Izzard is not on the list, yet he is in LGBT categories due to his crossdressing. He often performs stand-up comedy in drag, as himself. That is different to the comedians named in the section above who only play(ed) female characters, plus many male characters which do not require crossdressing. Werdnawerdna (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

As the lead to this article now correctly states, drag performers / crossdressers are not considered transgender.--greenrd (talk) 16:05, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Bruce Jenner

Someone can be transgender without being transsexual. While Jenner has not completely transformed, Jenner is, nonetheless, transgender. — Rickyrab. ^{Yada yada yada} 01:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

My understanding is the gender/sex distinction is frowned upon by trans people (except those who have been labelled by others in the trans community as "truescum", who believe that only people who have undergone genital reassignment surgery are trans). I think it may be more politically correct to say that Jenner has not undergone genital reassignment surgery, if that fact needs to be referred to at all. (Or, at the time you wrote your comment, that she had not yet undergone or completed transition, as you pretty much did say).--greenrd (talk) 16:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Question

By the same principal, will it also be necessary to create List of cisgender people? Sersan Mayor Kururu (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Is anyone notable for being cisgender? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:56, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

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Charles Butler

The article Charles Butler (author) does not seem to describe him as transgender, and the reference given is a dead link. Shouldn't he be removed from the list? --rossb (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

That would be reasonable. Good job catching that! TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:18, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Maxine Feldman

Maxine Feldman is clearly identified as transgender in his death announcement at http://providence.edgemedianetwork.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=36268 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowhare (talk • contribs) 02:28, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Yup, got that one wrong: sorry. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 04:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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Independently notable or notable for event?

@Martinlc: I was mistaken as I thought this was the list of killed trans people. I think this warrants discussion though.

Should this list be only about notable trans people (i.e., ones who have their own BLP)? EvergreenFir (talk) 20:28, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

It has long been my understanding that lists generally require that listees have their own article.The only exception is when the list recreates a third-party source, such as the List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups. In the first case, the list exists to provide notable examples of the listed category; in the second case, list exists to document a third-party source and direct readers to relevant articles that may exist.

If we allow non-notable entries to this list -- i.e., list people who do not have a Wikipedia article -- then we face a lot of problems. Is the person actually trans? Are they out? Do they meet notability requirements at the heart of the Wikipedia philosophy? How can we tell? The best policy seems to be to include only those people who merit their own article, and to require that an article be written for the person before they are added to this list. If it is decided that the article fails for any reason, then the resulting redlink in this list should be removed. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 20:52, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Added - I looked at the List of unlawfully killed transgender people, which I do not watch. I'm not sure it meets the editorial standards of the Wikipedia, but I will let others make that determination. It might be worth getting some people together to validate all the references, though, to make sure that the various guidelines about notability, reliable sources and biography references are up to snuff. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 20:59, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

@TechBear: I agree with your initial comment about list entries. The issue here is whether having an article about the murder of someone is enough for inclusion in this list. Given your reversion of the edit in question, I assume you feel it's not. I'm inclined to agree for this list. As for List of unlawfully killed transgender people, that one is a tough call IMHO. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Hedwig is not Transgender

Hedwig from Hedwig and the Angry Inch is not transgender. It's stated in the plot that the only reason she (as someone who dresses in drag, she is acceptable) undergoes the surgery is to marry Luther. She is a gay man forced to undergo surgery, not an actual trans person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.162.81.74 (talk) 16:33, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

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People who do not identify as transgender but are?

This list says it is of people who identify as transgender. What about the many people who never identified as transgender (because they didn't discuss it or because that term hadn't been invented yet) but lived as a gender different from the one assigned to them at birth. Should they be included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 李艾连 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Complicated, and no general solution is available. Consult the individual article for the person concerned, and see how it is handled there. Mathglot (talk) 10:07, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Proposition to change the title

In my opinion the title "List of transgender people" sounds like there are only a few transgender people in the whole world, who will now be listet. That's why I'd propose to change it to "List of famous transgender people". I don't really know, how to change it or who to contact with the proposition, so I'm posting it here. ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.26.54 (talk) 01:38, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

It such a list appropriate?

Reasonable people - including those of us currently called "transgender" - can and will disagree about this. I don't think there is a clear answer that will satisfy anyone: such is the nature of being labelled "transgender" these days. One point of view - my own - is that the label itself can be a problem, as we use the label to identify people who in some life-affecting way do not or cannot live the expected cultural role of the gender assigned by birth. When I stumbled on this page, a specific listing of individuals, my gut reaction was horror: "why not just paint a target on our back"; followed by righteous indignation: "I don't see a List of Cisgender People".

I am a bit surprised to not find any discussion of the basic usefulness or legitimacy of such a list on Wikipedia. Again, I know very well that people of good will can have quite different opinions - my own have changed over time, as I go through life being relabeled each decade: currently, "transgender". The language and general attitudes are evolving quickly, 15 years ago I was a "transsexual"; 30 years ago I was a "freak"; 40 years ago I was a "criminal".

My own opinion, as one who could be on the list if I happened to be important enough to be listed anywhere, is that the title and contents are inappropriate invasions of privacy. I do not mean to indicate that we should be ashamed or any such thing: simply that creating a list of people based on the fact that we are not cisgender stikes me as a reinforcement of the arbitary social standards, although that is clearly not the intent of the people who have worked on this page.

I am torn between saying "this should be discussed", and saying "let's not discuss it, because the discussion at best is unlikely to lead to any conclusion, and at worst would be far more heat than light".

Perhaps the right question to ask is: what useful and relatively objective information is contained here? My sense is there is no real use for this information, that the decision to put someone on the list or not is necessarily subjective due to the quickly changing landscape, and that being placed on the list can endanger the person. Still, I hesitate to ask, knowing there are perfectly good "other" responses; and more so, knowing that concensus is unlikely, and finally, were any decision to be made, it could quickly become invalidated as the world adjusts to the idea that not everyone is cisgender.

Again, with no disrespect to anyone who has worked on this in good faith - if we know one thing as "transgender" people, there's no universal truths on this stuff.

Tsimbler (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Fellow trans person here. I understand your concerns, but for living people, only those who are both notable and openly transgender should be included on this list, so being included here shouldn't "out" anyone or endanger them any more than coverage in mainstream media would. That being said, as public awareness (and, hopefully, acceptance) of trans folks grows and more folks openly come out as trans, this list might grow to an unmanageable size. Funcrunch (talk) 16:06, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

It is appropriate. Especially if folks self-add and/or folks who are proud of their gender identity / surgery, what-have-you. Plus-one +1 to keep this Category. From Peter aka Vid2vid (talk) 03:50, 2 September 2019 (UTC).

Suggestion: Sub-Section for Celebrities vs Non?

Hi All, at the Wiki page called sex change, I was surprised the External Links did not have a page about notable, celebrities, actors, etc who are {surgically} transgender.. Suggestion to [1] add that there, and also [2] a Category called, "List of transgender celebrities," and [3] also to add a sub-section to this very (incomplete) page of "List of transgender people" called "Celebrities." Does anyone agree or have good debate fodder about these three ideas? Peace. From Peter aka Vid2vid (talk) 03:49, 2 September 2019 (UTC).

Sorry for the late response, but I don't think that having a list of notable people who have had MtF or FtM SRS would be productive, as many people specifically don't talk about genitals, sourcing such a page would be hard. EnviousDemon (talk) 23:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Title change

Much like the first section on this Talk Page, I propose that the title of the page be changed to either List of notable transgender people or List of famous transgender people as the concept of a List of transgender people is at best misleading and at worst potentially harmful in its implications. Many other such lists on wikipedia include the term notable in their titles, so I personally suggest that option specifically. Acolossus | Talk | Contributions 12:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

No per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists), even if Wikipedia:Other stuff exists that violate the guideline. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2021

This edit request to List of transgender people has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add Jamie Raines, known on YouTube as "JammiDodger", a Pseudo-Celebrity English trans man living in the UK. Also add Noah Adams, known on YouTube as "NOAHFINNCE", a Pseudo-Celebrity English trans man living in the UK, both of whom frequently collaborate on YouTube 2603:6080:2408:E741:D505:DB7C:DFA9:8FAC (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Not done: Not without reliable independent sources establishing that they should have an article; and not without such a policy-complaint article being created here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 04:25, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2021

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Adding Gottmik to the list of notable transgender people. As the first trans-man on Ru Paul's Drag Race, they are an extremely notable and inspirational figure that needs to be mentioned on this page NeatPengu (talk) 11:32, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, Gottmik does have an article. Funcrunch (talk) 14:42, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2021

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add 'Gottmik' to list of transgender people 65.51.58.1 (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Done. ◢ Ganbaruby!  (talk) 12:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Actor Brian Michael Smith

He isn't on the list.

May I add him? ~~178.149.47.182.~~

Yes. Mysterymanblue 22:00, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize that this page was protected. I added him for you. Mysterymanblue 22:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2021

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To be added:

Eleanor Rykener (given name John Rykener): Eleanor is one of the oldest documented transgender on record. Rykener was arrested December 1394 after having sexual contact with a man named John Britby on cheapside London while dressed in womens clothing. Historians unfortunately link Rykener with another prisoner of the same name at that time so there isn't clear evidence here. However, Rykener after being interrogated for 2 offenses: sodomy and prostitution. In those days prostitution was not a criminal offense but more or less considered a moral sin and there is non real evidence that Rykener was prosecuted for either. It waa not uncommon for Rykener to have relations with both men and women INCLUDING priests and nuns. Rykener was introduced to the idea of contact with men by a dress maker or embroideress by the name of Elizabeth Brouderer who also dressed Rykener and may have acted as a procurer. Spacetwinkie (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. There needs to be reliable secondary sources to provide this information and establish notability. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

There is an article about them. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 20:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Done @Spacetwinkie, ScottishFinnishRadish, and JasonAQuest: As Jason A. Quest established notability with the link to the article, I added Rykener with an reliable source and a note on how their gender identity is the subject of some scholarly discussion. Mysteryman blue 09:25, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Removal of Sylvia Rivera

Sylvia Rivera should be removed. Rivera’s page does not mention being transgender, and features a quote about Rivera disliking the term. 87.92.195.110 (talk) 15:42, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

The article does considerably more than "mention" her gender identity, and what it describes is generally understood today as "transgender". Her comment about disliking the term was in the context of disliking labels in general, "even" that one, and she revived STAR as "Street Transgender Action Revolutionaries", which indicates some level of identification with it. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 22:36, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Rivera did not identify as transgender, simple as that. The source on this page doesn't mention being trans either. 87.92.195.110 (talk) 04:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I've added a better source to the list... this one does. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

The new source says she came to hate the label transgender as well. Wikipedia manual of style on gender identity says to use terms “that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources”. In Rivera’s case, it’s that she wasn’t transgender.87.92.195.110 (talk) 13:39, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

No, it says she disliked labels in general, "even" the one that best described her. If I say "I don't like being called a queer artist, I just want to be 'Jason'", that doesn't mean I'm not a queer artist. "Silvia Rivera" is a not a gender identity. Unless you have a source where she specifically says that she is not trans and identifies as something else, this is just wikilawyering. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Add Leanne Mills

Leanne Mills is a British trans woman who underwent reassignment surgery in 1995. Born in 1961 she participated in a UK TV documentary on the subject of transsexualism in 1980. Part of ATV's current affairs series 'Format V', the episode (entitled 'What Am I?') featured her struggles and fears while living as a woman and waiting for her referral to Charing Cross Hospital in London for hormone treatment. Using the cover name 'Mary of Mansfield' she spoke candidly in an interview and was filmed out in public. Since aged only 19 at the time, as far as can be assessed, she was the first 'trans teenager' to come out on British television. The programme in question is now available online. ^[1] Fairstar1965 (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Why does this page exist?

Is this useful in any way? InTheUniversal (talk) 17:09, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

It is lists trans people and brings them together into one list. Since there are lists like List of people with non-binary gender identities and List of intersex people, why not have this list? --Historyday01 (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Utility is not a criterion for being included in the Wikipedia, and care is taken that every person on this list has a Wikipedia article and is therefore notable and relevant in some way. So why should this page not exist? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Page formatting: single table is too cumbersome to maintain

I understand that tables make it easier to present information consistently, but I think doing the whole page as a single table is too cumbersome to maintain. Would there be any objection to breaking this back down into alphabetic categories, but with tables (all A in one table, all B in another, etc.)? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to doing it into alphabetic categories, but I think that if there isn't enough for a specific letter than it should be combined with another letter, like B-C or C-D, and listed as such. --Historyday01 (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2021

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Hi there. I wondered if you could potentially add two more people to the list? They both have wikipedia pages and are prominent non-binary trans activists in the UK. They are:

Owl Fisher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_Fisher Fox Fisher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Fisher

Thank you!

-S Starseekers (talk) 14:01, 27 September 2021 (UTC)