Talk:List of missions in Spanish Florida

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Missions in Spanish Florida was copied or moved into List of missions in Spanish Florida with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

mission locations

Some of the locations given through HMDB, for example, Santa Fe de Toloca, are only near the site rather than at the site. The wiki article for that mission gives the coordinates a mile away from the marker. The others that I cited don't state that they aren't on/very close to the site, but I'm not sure if the locations would have to be updated since the markers seem to have some sort of research used. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 21:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll also probably be completely revising my map for the missions so I can get a better idea. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 21:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HMDB is not a reliable source for location data. This was discussed on the talk page of Missions in Spanish Florida. Why are you using it? The data is user-generated, as you know, and therefore unreliable. "The markers seem to have some sort of research used" doesn't cut it for verifiability, per WP:PROOF. This is WP policy. Carlstak (talk) 00:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed cites of HMDB. They have no place in an encyclopedia article. Carlstak (talk) 00:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Donald Albury 00:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added the location for Joada but I am confused... does this list include presidios (forts) as well? From my understanding, even if they (Palica, Soloy, Guatari, Joada) were not considered true presidios, were still forts in a sense and not a mission building. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 09:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presidios and missions are different entities. The first set of presidios, founded by Menendez de Aviles, were military outposts, intended to secure Spanish control of the Florida coast. There were attempts to missionize the natives in the vicinity of those presidios, in some cases with friars, and in other cases with some of the soldiers at the presidio assigned to educate the local natives about Christianity, but the missions were secondary to the military purpose. The only presidios from that batch to last more than two or three years were St. Augustine and Santa Elena (which lasted 20 years), and those were administrative centers, with missions adjacent to, but not in, the presidios. The later presidios in what became West Florida were not mission sites but, with the exception of the port of San Marcos de Apalachee, administrative centers. Those are all called "presidios" in reliable sources. Spanish troops were stationed in the same village with some missions, particularly along the Georgia coast, to protect against foreign invasion. There was also a garrison in Apalachee Province. The records sometimes speak of the Spanish garrisons living inside a palisade, but I don't remember seeing any substantive descriptions of them. There are mentions of several fortifications established by the Spanish that were not near a mission, such as the Apalachicola Fort, or the blockhouse at the La Chua ranch, but they didn't last long, and were not called "presidios". Unless a reliable source calls a place a "presidio", we cannot do so. The Spanish "forts" outside of the presidios were small and usually not long lasting. The Apalachicola Fort, perhaps the biggest of the non-presidio forts before the 18th century, was a blockhouse surrounded by a palisade, and had a garrison of about 40 Spanish and Apalachees. In comparison, the town built by the Chisca on the Choctawhatchee River 20 years earlier had palisadess more than 16 feet tall and held 700 warriors and their dependents. There were larger and longer lasting forts in the 18th century, such as Fort San Francisco de Pupo and Fort Picolata, that were founded after the mission system had collapsed. Donald Albury 17:54, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

👍

HMDB was cited before the discussion, although I don't remember it. I agree, though. I still have the locations so I'll try and prove them by real papers. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]