Talk:List of Syriac Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch

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Patriarchs of Tur-Abdin

Are there any sources that provide a list of the Patriarchs of Tur-Abdin, which was an autocephalic patriarchate that split from that of Antioch in 1364, and reunited in 1869. This is an important piece of data, mentioned in: Massacres, resistance, protectors by David Gaunt, Jan Bet̲-Şawoce, Racho Donef. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.16.231.150 (talk) 18:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I'll add them into my template Patriarchs of the Syriac Orthodox Church shortly.

Djwilms (talk) 07:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done.

Djwilms (talk) 01:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Merger proposal

It has been suggested since July 2019 to merge List of Syriac Patriarchs of Antioch from 512 to 1783 to the List of Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs of Antioch making it one continuum of Syriac Patriarchs.

Strongly Oppose: I see this merger is a logical to establish a continuum of Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs. But the problem is that prior to 1783 it was known as Syriac Patriarch of Antioch. It was only after the split of 1783 that the title was claimed by both the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Syriac Catholic Church. So in a way, the List of Syriac Patriarchs of Antioch from 512 to 1783 is what both aforementioned (Orthodox and Catholic) churches recognize, whereas the List of Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs of Antioch is for the Orthodox church only. The titles of the articles are chosen carefully as well to differentiate. The first list uses the term "Syriac Patriarchs of Antioch" (WITHOUT the Orthodox tag) whereas the other list uses the term "Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs of Antioch" (that is WITH the Orthodox tag), the clearest indication why the two lists should not be merged. werldwayd (talk) 03:22, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Counting them, for instance those named Ignatius

Ignatius I can be counted as II if 1st-to-2nd-century Ignatius of Antioch is counted as I, so I added notes to II, III and IV about this ("sometimes add 1"), but stopped at number IV, and there are MANY more by this name until today (pls add notes if you KNOW it's needed).

It can also work the other way round: of III (who can become IV) I know for a fact he's being mentioned as II (came across it on Bar Hebraeus page), unless it was just careless editing by someone. So the same man can appear as either Ignatius II, III, or IV!

I don't know if this mess with Ignatius propagates throughout the long list until today. It is also the case with other names, as I noticed glancing at the "Notes". I've never, ever seen a list with literally DOZENS of notes, all about this same problem. Are the numbers really in wide circulation? Any common standards or solutions, such as a table, algorithm, adding birth names, patronyms or surnames? The list is NOT a practical tool as it is now! On the Bar Hebraeus page, the formally correct Wikilink led to a man who lived 4 centuries too early! Arminden (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mugsalot: hi. Did you read this here? Arminden (talk) 22:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I did. The article is entirely sourced. Please provide sources for your edits. Mugsalot (talk) 07:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dates

@Mugsalot. I reverted the changes you did becasue I don't think the orignal dates were correct. I don't know what are the sources you are using. I'm sourcing from books written in Arabic that provide more details. SULNOUR (talk) 14:24, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SULNOUR, as mentioned in the article, the dates are from Gorgias Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Syriac Heritage: Electronic Edition and the list provided in The Syriac World by David Wilmshurst. You have not provided any sources. Mugsalot (talk) 15:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mugsalot::My sources are: (1) History of Al-Za'afaran Monastary (1917) by Ignatius Aphram Barsoum, (2) Barsoum, Athanasius Aphram, 2006. The Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs in the 19th &20th centuries. 2nd edition, Beirut, Lebanon, (3) History of Mosul Archdioces (1984), Metropolitan Saliba Shamoun, and (4) Martyrs, Saints & Prelates of The Syriac Orthodox Church (2017) by Cor-Episcopo K. Mani Rajan, M.Sc., M.Ed., Ph.D.

Wilmshurst didn't provide any source for his infomration in the Syriac Worldcchapter (I have a copy) and I tried to contact him but there's no email listed for him SULNOUR (talk) 15:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mugsalot:And I forgot to mention Dolabani's book, History of Syriac Patriarchs, published in Arabic in 2012 as a supplement to Bar Hebraeus Chronicles and both were translated from Syriac by Metropolitan Saliba Shamoun SULNOUR (talk) 16:04, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SULNOUR, please see my recent edit. Mugsalot (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mugsalot Thanks for the updates. As some of Syriac Orthodox patriarchs didn't produce any literary work, no one cared to write about them. I think the best infomration about them are in Ignatius Aphram Barsoum and Dolabani's work as both studied and ordained as monks in Al-Za'afaran monastery at the same time and had access to the archives there before Sayfo. They might have met people who knew some of these patriarchs SULNOUR (talk) 15:52, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]