Talk:Kesteven and Sleaford High School

Kesteven and Sleaford High School has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: December 10, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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GA Review

Passed. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kesteven and Sleaford High School/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Noswall59 (talk · contribs) 16:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've done a really good job of improving the articles on schools in Sleaford. I'm looking forward to reviewing :) It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Noswall59, I have just finished reviewing. I really enjoyed reviewing this, and the more I reviewed the the more impressed I was by the level of research! It seems you have dug up every possible source and summarised them really well. Additionally, the prose was very well written, so most my points are nitpicks or small grammatical improvements. Feel free to push back on the points you don't agree with. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much It is a wonderful world. I can see you've taken a lot of time to properly review this article and I'm very grateful for it. I have endeavoured to respond to all your queries below and have acted upon them in this edit. Please see more detailed responses, line by line, below. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 16:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Hi @Noswall59, I am happy with all your changes. Passing now. Regarding the original research point, I was completely wrong and was mixing original research with primary sourcing. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose (Criteria 1a, 1b, 4) clock

Lead

Background

pupils had to pay a fee to attend and it admitted boys only: I think there should be a comma before the "and", according to WP:CINS. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

but pupils had to pay a fee to attend and it admitted boys only: I think the use of "but" here is problematic, because it implies a relationship between the two statements that is not supported by the source (see WP:EDITORIALIZING). Also, I don't see where the source supports that "pupils had to pay a fee to attend and it admitted boys only"? It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed "but" and got rid of the bit about fees as it doesn't add anything.

1901–02: Origins

mansion house on Southgate

"mansion house" -> "house"
- Done
What Southgate are you referring to here? It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a road. Clarified in the text.

The school was arranged into three forms: the youngest (kindergarten) were under 8; the middle were juniors, aged 8 to 12; and the eldest (seniors) were aged over 12: When referring to the singular first form, you use the plural "were". Changing "the youngest (kindergarten) where under 8" to "the first (kindergarten) contained students under 8 years old" would fix this for the first form. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reworded.

1902–19: Private school

Looks good :)

1919–44: Conversion to state school and new buildings

Negotiations progressed through the autumn and the company was voluntarily wound up in December 1918: I think this is another instance of WP:CINS It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.

1944–70: Postwar expansion and abolition of fees

I think "grammar school" and "technical school" should be linked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

it wound down its preparatory school (and the last boys departed) during the mid-1940s and the County Selection Examination was used for all admissions: WP:CINS It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

there were 330 pupils by 20 staff at the school: Doesn't make sense It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a missing word; I've edited it.

across three phases, which removed most of the offices and much of the temporary accommodation and added modern buildings: If these are the three phases, I think this would be better structured with a colon It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've not used a colon, but I have reworded it which I think deals with the issue.

1970–79: Comprehensive debate

A reluctance to improve secondary moderns or expand grammar schools under the Conservatives prompted the Labour Government to issue Circular 10/65 in 1965 which requested local education authorities convert to a comprehensive system: A comma would be appreciated somewhere in here It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, after "1965"

In some cases you have used "coeducational", and in others "co-educational". Consistency would be good. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Standardised to "coeducational" (also "coordinate" instead of "co-ordinate" for consistency)

This scheme proposed expanding Carre's and the High School as co-educational comprehensive schools (for 11–18 year olds) with the secondary modern being abolished and Westholme (home to the secondary modern) becoming both schools' playing fields

A comma would be nice
I think "to" would be better than "as" here
I think co-educational should be linked as this is the first use of the term
To better match the past tense, I think "being abolished" should be changed to "abolishing" and "becoming" should be "turned into" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- All done - for the last bullet, I have reworded slightly

the High School and the Secondary Modern sites were to become mixed 11–16 schools and Carre's would become a sixth form college: CINS It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Suggest linking "veto" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

its site at Westholme absorbed by the KSHS: Remove "the" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

1980–2010: Consolidation and expansion

the comprehensive debate: Unclear, since the structuring makes it seem like the article is describing the debate as comprehensive It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retitled to "Comprehensive schools debate"

2010–present: departing from the joint sixth form, academy conversion and takeover

The reason for its departure was not clear: Not neutral, this is technically an opinion stated as fact. Changing "clear" to "stated" would fix this if the sources support that. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the sentence you're referring to.

(the secondary modern school's successor): I'm not sure the word "successor" is right here. It implies something more drastic that just a renaming. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was more drastic as its legal status changed (it became both a comprehensive and a technology college)

Ross retired in 2012: This is the first time Ross is mentioned. Who are they? It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed this - it was a remnant of some previous content I had removed

become a coeducational, selective school on a new site: Not sure the comma is correct here It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed, though I think successive adjectives are meant to be linked by a comma (I actually don't like it as a rule); maybe I am wrong

KSHSSA's chair: What does this stand for? It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was KSHS Selective Academy, as they were known at the time (and still are, though today they are known as KSHS again); I've switched to KSHS for consistency and to save readers from another new technical term.

KSHSSA's chair of Governors, Robin Baker, became a trustee prompting his replacement as chair by Deborah Hopkins. The headteacher, Craig Booker, resigned: Some dates are needed for context, and the flow could be improved. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've clarified.

School structure

Suggest linking "Academy", even though it will be a duplink, since the reader is very likely to want to know more about it in this context and it has been a while since it was last linked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, and also linked Multi-Academy Trust

Note 4: "for trophy donated by E. Godson": Missing an "a" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Suggest linking "Sleaford Joint Sixth Form". It would be another duplink, but worth it in this context in my opinion. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Suggest linking "A-level" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Pupil population

as far ~~a field~~ as: Maybe a bit too informal It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed

Admissions

Suggest linking "GCSE" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

School uniform

Looks good :)

Key Stages 3 and 4

PSHE: This acronym should be defined along with PE and EP in the paragraph above It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Note 6: which is much higher than the national rate: Although obvious, this is an opinion so it is better to state "compared to the national average of 26%", and let the reader make up their own mind about the scale of the difference. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

pupils must one of four pre-determined combinations of these options: Missing "take"? It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, added.

Sixth Form

Looks good :)

Examinations

Suggest linking "confidence interval" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Extra-curricular activities

KSHS has a drama club[1] and since 1996 the school has put on an annual musical performance or a play: CINS It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

In the 1920s and 1930s, sports days were conducted on one Mr Coney's fields: I think this is missing an "of", and why is Mr Coney relevant enough for inclusion? It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added "of"; regarding Mr Coney, he's not notable, but it's the only description in the sources for where the games took place.

From a quick research it seems Sleaford Baths was a singular swimming pool, so it shouldn't be "Sleaford's Baths", but "Sleaford Baths"? It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, changed -- the name was "Sleaford Swimming Baths", so I've used that.

Suggest linking "Girl guiding" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Charles Kirk's House

the central one being moulded: I don't know what this means, is there an appropriate article/section that could be linked here? It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the way the gable has been made, but we don't have an obvious link and it's probably unnecessarily technical for this article, so I've removed it.

Suggest linking "pilasters" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Suggest linking "Conquest" in "pre-Conquest" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Kirk's old house: This phrasing makes it seem like you are referring to Kirk's house before he moved into 62 Southgate. I assume this is not the case because no such building has be mentioned so far. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed "old"

A dining room and dormitory for boarders were added to the original house c. 1904 and the house was extended again in 1927: CINS It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

the latter funded by public donations and opened in 1949: I don't think there should be an "and" in here It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have reworded it

By the 1990s, the building had become a Sixth Form study area and music classrooms: The singular verb "had become" is followed by a singular noun ("a Sixth Form study area") and a plural noun ("music classrooms"). This could be fixed with "the building was repurposed to contain a Sixth Form study area and music classrooms" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the existing wording is wrong as the building itself is singular but was converted to include multiple things, like "an extension containing two bedrooms", for instance. However, I have reworded it to: "the building had been converted into a Sixth Form study area and music classrooms"

but part of it had been deemed to be a fire hazard: "had been" -> "was", assuming that you are not trying to emphasize that this happened before the building was repurposed It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

the ground floor was made safe using a grant from the New Deal for Schools fund and the school fundraised to refurbish the building: CINS It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Former buildings in the grounds

No problems :)

The first modern school buildings: 1957 to 1968

In 1956, the school needed much more space: This is technically an opinion. Would it be possible to change it to something like "the school reported that they had run out of space", or "the school was oversubscribed"? At least remove "much". It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source simply says "By 1956 school was again short of space!". It doesn't explain why, which is why I haven't explained though it'll obvious be that they were reaching capacity in terms of numbers or lacked sufficient classroom resources. I have amended the wording to: "In 1956, the school judged that it needed much more space."

Is "Sleaford Urban District Council" something to be redlinked? It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've linked Urban District Council

"Prefect" could be linked to Prefect#Academic It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Note 8: took over sanitary department's office in 1956: I believe this is missing a "the" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

block of science classrooms and laboratories: This could be interpreted as classrooms and toilets, which I assume is not intended. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're confusing laboratories with lavatories?

Suggest linking "air-raid shelters" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Later additions

No problems :)

Playing fields

though it took BR five years: Should this acronym be defined before it is used? It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

to sell the land ~~to KSHS~~: Conciseness It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

and ~~were~~ opened in 1962 It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Headteachers

There is some inconsistency between using the abbreviations "BSc" or "BA", and the full title "Bachelor of Science", and in the linking of the terms. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reworked for consistency

Suggest linking "secondment" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Notable former pupils and teachers

A pioneering scholar: Opinion, attribute for neutrality It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed

Old Girls include: The term "Old Girls" hasn't been introduced yet. "Alumni" instead? It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Suggest linking "Romanist" and "diarist" It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Old Girls Association

No problems :)

Sources clock

Health/formatting (Criterion 2a) clock

It appears [151] is down? It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be working fine for me.

[156] could do with a URL It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a URL - I think this may have been from a microfilm.

Reliability (Criterion 2b) Y

Most sources are either from the government, newspapers, books published by reliable publishers (at least on a quick check of each), other school websites, or from scientific journals. A few lower quality sources should have some justification for their use:

The Google Maps source only verifies a minor detail so no problems there.

The book published by the subject ("A School Remembers: Kesteven and Sleaford High School 1902–1977") is not used to verify any exceptional claims, and reads like a reliable source, so I see no issue in using it.

The Kesteven and Sleaford High School website is also only used to verify non-exceptional claims about itself, so no issues there.

Spot check (Criteria 2b, 2c, 2d) clock

Assuming good faith for Edmonds & Venn 1977 (such an obscure source I'm impressed you got a hold of it), Ellis 1954 and some of the other other books, and the British Newspaper Archive sources (unfortunately The Wikipedia Library no longer supports access).

[1]: Y

[5]: Y

[8]: Y

[9]: Y (through the search engine)

[32]: Y

[36]: Y

[40]: Y

[50a, 51a]: Y

[50b, 51b]: Y

[50c]: Y

[61]: Citing the education act and providing your own summary is original research, can another source be used here? It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure that's OR: the text is fully supported by the act itself. However, I have quoted from the act now to explain the specific duty it placed on local authorities. The remaining portion of that sentence, which reads "and it empowered the government to compel local authorities to produce comprehensive schemes for their schools", is supported by this clause in the Act: "If at any time it appears to the Secretary of State that progress or further progress in giving effect to the principle stated in section 1 above is required in the area or any part of the area of any local education authority, he may require the authority to prepare and submit to him ... proposals for the purpose of giving effect to that principle [i.e the comprehensive principle] in the area of the authority or in any part of that area specified by him." That seems fine to me.

[75]: Y

[76]: Y

[93b]: Y

[94]: Y

[93c]: Y

[103]: Y

[104]: Y

[96c]: Y

[113]: Y

[5b]: 83%, not 87%. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

[129c]: Y

[75b, 145]: Y

[167]: Doesn't support the part about him being a bandmaster It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed unsourced part - I think it was previously cited to a now-broken link which I had removed but forgot to replace this text

[85d]: Y, but it isn't good how the prose makes it sound like he left because of joining the trust. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to reword this

Copyvio (Criterion 2d) Y

Neither Earwig nor the spot check found any cause for concern.

Scope (Criteria 3a, 3b) Y

I see no scope issues. There is a wide range of references, the article includes all the sections that are in other featured school articles.

After reading it through, I am very impressed by its comprehensiveness.

Stable (Criterion 5) Y

No issues

Media Y

Tags (Criterion 6a) Y

No issues

Captions (Criterion 6b) Y

No issues

Suggestions (not needed for GA promotion)

Thanks for this - I will endeavour to act on this after the GA review - really helpful.

The logo picture doesn't display very well on dark mode. It's hard to describe but you can check for yourself. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is Template:Cite Google Maps, which may be better than the generic cite web template for the Google Maps reference. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Using Template:Inflation to give an equivalent modern amount for the monetary amounts such as "£1 5s" and "£4,000" could help the reader understand how much that actually was. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a template for c. 1904. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be good if you could consistently use the term "coeducational" or not use it at all. Right now the article seemingly randomly uses "school for boys and girls" (or girls and boys) or "coeducational". It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is some inconsistency in the application of MOS:NUM. The figure "20" is used twice, "11" is used nine times, while "sixteen" and "eleven" are used multiple times as well. There is probably some more examples I didn't notice. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is some inconsistency in the use of semi-colons or commas to separate simple list items. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the sources with archive links are missing their URL status, meaning when you click to open their source it takes longer to load the archive version and puts more load on the Internet Archive. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for reviewing this, It is a wonderful world. Can I just confirm whether you've finished the review or whether you still have more to do? Once you've finished, I'll action all your points. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 18:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Hi @Noswall59, I haven't finished yet, I'll write something in every section. Sometimes if the changes are significant I'll wait until the points have been addressed before doing the spot check, but in this case it doesn't looks as though that will be the case. It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.