Talk:India/Archive 60

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Archive 60

Democratic Backsliding

In the final statement in the history section, "India's sustained democratic freedoms are unique among the world's newer nations", we need to update it to include the rapid democratic backsliding and the rise of Hindu nationalism seen in recent years. Countless institutes and organizations, studies, and media sources cite this, and it is not a trivial matter to be ignored. I feel like it needs to be included in this article. A sentence or two should work. Some of the sources are Democracy Report 2024 by V-Dem Institute, Democracy in India by Chatham House[1], 'Electoral autocracy': The downgrading of India's democracy by BBC[2], Modi’s strongman rule raises questions about India’s ‘democratic decline’ as he seeks a third term by CNBC[3], The democratic backsliding of India, by The Hindu[4]EarthDude (talk) 16:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

It's been nearly two weeks and I haven't recieved any replies. Im adding this then EarthDude (talk) 16:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

EarthDude, the lack of response was probably due to the fact that you haven't given a single reliable source supporting your statements. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 18:43, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I added the sources now EarthDude (talk) 02:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

EarthDude, Not how it works in a featured article, which is also one of the oldest. You have to propose a change, backed up by reliable sources, and then establish a consensus from the community here in the talk page. I understand your enthusiasm, but you can go through the talk page archives to understand the process. Ping me or any other senior editor for any help. Happy editing. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 04:03, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Those sources are brief ones looking at a very recent period of history. The current final paragraph is a summation of the last few decades. This covers a broad range of sometimes quite dramatic political events, which are not included here for reasons of concision. You may want to see how the content fits into History of India (1947–present). CMD (talk) 04:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm yeah I guess it's too recent for this. It has only taken place in the past decade and I also noticed that things like Emergency aren't in the article so year EarthDude (talk) 02:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Democratic backsliding is quite myth. Nothing has been seriously reported in last 4-5 years. The rise of Hindu nationalism is not democratic backsliding. Loveforwiki (talk) 07:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! 103.170.231.236 (talk) 08:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a Wikipedia, you don't get to add your personal biased political view points here. Democratic backsliding has always been there and has decreased ever since the rise of hindutva. So kindly stay away 103.170.231.236 (talk) 08:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid in India?

there are some sources that claim this https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/02/13/india-hidden-apartheid-discrimination-against-dalits https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/23/an-apartheid-era-begins-in-india-as-does-a-moral-dilemma-for-its-allies/ Gorgonopsi (talk) 09:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Gorgonopsi, you need multiple reliable independent sources and peer reviewed scientific articles and studies to support the claim. One source cannot cover such a claim which is to be put on this featured article. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 09:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Human Rights watch is generally reliable.

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/caste/presskit.htm

https://www.theglobalist.com/the-deplorable-parallels-between-apartheid-and-caste/

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2024/08/indias-anti-muslim-apartheid

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/2/28/housing-apartheid-in-indian-city

https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000123465 Gorgonopsi (talk) 09:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Ya, I support this. Sources like HRW and Al Jazeera are very reliable EarthDude (talk) 07:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

While there have been frequent caste and communal tensions in India, I'm not sure if adding this information would be beneficial, as similar geographical articles on the United States, Myanmar, or other African countries have not included it.25 CENTS VICTORIOUS ^🍁 09:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Although the Hindu caste system is in some ways similar to apartheid, and I've casually compared the two myself in talk page discussions, the consensus of scholarly opinion in both Indian historiography and sociology has been not to consider either system to be a form of the other. Note also that the caste system does not only discriminate against the Dalits, though they have certainly borne the brunt of itse oppression. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024

"Change 'India, officially the Republic of India, is a country in South Asia.' to 'India, officially the Republic of India, is a country in Indian subcontinent, in Asia'" Hihelloplanet (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hihelloplanet, redundant, IMO. The current term is better for an average reader, without cramming up unnecessary terms. — Benison (talk) 09:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"South Asia" would have been equally redundant if "Indian subcontinent, in Asia" was the original description instead. Hihelloplanet (talk) 09:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not done for now: The structure of the replacement sentence you're proposing seems unnecessarily long and a bit hard to read: "is a country in [the] Indian subcontinent, in Asia". Maybe a different structure would be a better replacement. Nythar (💬-🍀) 09:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with Benison: "India" is a country in the "Indian subcontinent" seems redundant. Nythar (💬-🍀) 10:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Its seemingly redundant because letters I-n-d-i-a are being repeated twice in the same sentence but "India" and "Indian subcontinent" are two different entities.

The sentence, "India, officially the Republic of India, is a country on the Indian subcontinent in Asia" is well descriptive of the geography and factually accurate.

IMO Its not hard to read. Hihelloplanet (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"India, officially the Republic of India, is a country on the Indian subcontinent in Asia" Hihelloplanet (talk) 14:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Hihelloplanet your edits are making lead hard and we don't need such details in lead. Edasf (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Add India as a cradle of civillisation

I request that the start of second paragraph we should add India is one of cradles of civilisation .Since its a well known fact.Verify here Cradle of civilization. Edasf (talk) 12:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Edasf, Talk:India/Archive 41#Shoud the Indus Valley Civilization be discussed in the opening section? and Talk:India/Archive 46#Addition Cradle of civilization can throw some light onto previous discussions on the topic. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 14:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Herald We can add the word only without adding wikilink.Adding this not here but on others can be inequality.I have seen that article and the section is very improved now.It can be added . Edasf (talk) 14:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Not appropriate for an unsourced edit to be added directly into the lead, especially if it adds no additional information. CMD (talk) 16:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis It isn't an unsourced edit see my first comment. Edasf (talk) 05:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

You have not provided a source here, and it is unclear which of the 190 citations on the linked page you are referring to. CMD (talk) 06:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis I have given link to article you can verify there.Thanks Edasf (talk) 07:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources. Please do not use edit template requests without providing sources or gaining consensus for your proposals. CMD (talk) 08:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis Fine,you can see citations 6&7 in linked article.Now,please add it.Thanks Edasf (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If it is to be added, it really needs to go in the "Ancient India" section, not the lede, as modern-day India is not the same entity. As you can see from that paragraph, examples of early hominids were found in areas such as Pakistan. Black Kite (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Then add it there only.And we can also add in lead using Ancient India or Indian subcontinent. Edasf (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Fowler&fowler,@The Herald and @Chipmunkdavis for their approval or disapproval over it. Edasf (talk) 07:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Edasf, IMO, the addition is just superfluous. If the general consensus says it needs to be added, then it should go as per Black Kite, not in the lede. The lede doesn't need to touch that part of history and it is more than perfect as it is now. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Herald I have added a comment after Black Kite that we should add there only at least. Edasf (talk) 08:34, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Edasf, Yes, I'm aware. Hence I said if the general consensus says. So far, there is no consensus. So I'd suggest you to wait till more comments come in. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:36, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I just saw this. "Cradle of civilization," is an imprecise (and catch-all) term and best not be applied to this featured article, which has been vetted by the WP community for quality.

Moreover, in my way of thinking, if it had to be applied to an ancient culture, it would be that of Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt. For that is where Homo sapiens—who had originated in Africa and had survived for tens of thousands of years as hunter-gatherers—became a farming, and later irritating irrigating, people and gave rise to complex societies. We refer to this in the lead and reference Mehrgarh, where a neolithic culture had first arisen in South Asia, and in turn, gave rise to the Indus Valley Civilisation, the region's first urban culture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I support adding the Cradle of civilisation sentences in the lead. Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt and IVC are three oldest ever. Even in China page lead, it's been added meanwhile China came after IVC. Loveforwiki (talk) 17:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely i agree. It's well known, and it comes under top three major and oldest civilisation. Loveforwiki (talk) 17:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Edasf: I'm going to remove your, good faith, addition to the article because I don't really see consensus for its inclusion above. Also, do note that this article is about the modern entity named "India". Any "cradle of civilization" reference will refer to the pre-partition entity and not the current one. A chunk (perhaps the predominant chunk) of this cradle part is now in Pakistan. At best, the cradle of civilization reference belongs in the History of India article which covers the history of India prior to partition. RegentsPark (comment) 14:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  @RegentsPark Fine I understand your concern Edasf (talk) 14:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't agree here, cradle part also comes in India in the region of Punjab, Haryana, Gujarat and Rajasthan. We can't ignore it. We can write the sentences the way it suit it's current geographic. Like we can write in the way.." India is among the cradle of civilisations with some region lies in Pakistan" like that we can write. Loveforwiki (talk) 16:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2024

Hi, for the motto, and the national anthem, since both are from a language that uses devanagari, why are we using the transliteration even there? Shubhsamant09 (talk) 23:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done You're supposed to suggest changes, not ask questions through these edit requests. It is unclear what you are suggesting. Please also note that Devanagari is a script, not a language. The language of the motto is Sanskrit and the language of the national anthem is Bengali (which has its own script). Finally, as you already know, WP:INDICSCRIPT. RegentsPark (comment) 00:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2024

I want to modify the speaker word into house speaker which will be best to see in the page so please give me the permission for this that's all Roni0102 (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Since you're looking to make a specific change, clearly state what it is and, if it is thought to be fine, someone will do it for you. But, please be very specific because your above statement is not at all clear. RegentsPark (comment) 16:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The word 'Speaker' I want to change it to 'House Speaker' in Wiki page of my country this will be look good so please give me permission to just change it that only word Roni0102 (talk) 03:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't be there....no mention in the article about the position or person. Moxy🍁 05:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The chief justice and speaker were recently added in this edit without discussion or sourcing. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 05:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Mention or India's military power and membership of G20 Brics etc in lead

I wonder why it's not mentioned in lead that india is second largest active military personnels and it's part of G20, BRICs, Quad, east asia summit etc like it's mentioned in othet countries page. Why not here ?? Loveforwiki (talk) 03:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Loveforwiki. Feel free to add it yourself (with a citation). Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 03:53, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I have added it. But it has redirected to Wikipedia's pages. Loveforwiki (talk) 03:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What makes these key facts to a brief understanding of India? CMD (talk) 04:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's just common reference of India's involvement in world like other country's lead. Loveforwiki (talk) 04:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Theoretically this lead is better than most others, and they should be adapted to fit this one. I do have my issues with the current lead, mostly the coverage of history crowding out the coverage of the current country, but changes to the lead should be considered within the context of this article and ideally backed up by sources, rather than copying other articles. CMD (talk) 04:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't copied anything. It's just sentences that tells which of grouping India is part of.

Although the way the last paragraph of lead is written, like everything is compared to 1951 to current years. I also doesn't approve it. Obviously everything was devastated in 1951 because it got independence in 1947. Loveforwiki (talk) 04:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I thought you wanted to copy the format of the other country pages? If not, where do the content ideas come from? CMD (talk) 05:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you find any recent scholarly or at least geopolitical sources that are providing the same summary as want to add on the lead? Ratnahastin (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't requir this deep and complicated debate just to add simple participation of India in these summits. Mostly 95% countries lead pages have these information, Dont know what so special about India that mentioned here. Ok if it's added or not. I support to add these. Loveforwiki (talk) 07:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey guys... i am adding it's membership line of G20 and Brics etc.. kindly conclude this. Loveforwiki (talk) 16:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hey guys.. i have added it's involvement in intercontinental summits. Loveforwiki (talk) 09:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)