Jump to content

Talk:Gun show loophole/Archive 10

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 5←Archive 8Archive 9Archive 10Archive 11

Requested move 24 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus at the discussion has shown that the current title is the WP:COMMONNAME based on usage in reliable sources, citing both Scholar (gun show loophole 692, private sale of firearms 30, private gun sales 309), as well as ngrams. Supporters of the move discussed the neutrality of the title as the primary motivation for the move, but opposers have shown with data that the current title is still the common name and in line with policies as referenced by WP:NPOVNAME. The close of this RM does not preclude any new separate RMs for a new title in line with our policies on article titles in the future if consensus changes as there is no WP:DEADLINE. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 02:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Gun show loophole → Private sale of firearms in the United States – I have been reading the comments between a number of editors over the past few weeks and I have been engaged in the discussion around what to do with this GSL article name. At this point, the discussion clearly looks like a new title is needed and that the best neutral title is "Private sale of firearms in the United States" according to common usage and the aggregate of best reliable sources. Any other changes to the article can be dealt with separately, this discussion should just be over whether or not to re-title the article to "Private sale of firearms in the United States" instead of "Gun show loophole". Iljhgtn (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment Surely the article should be titled "Private sale of firearms in the United States"? This article entirely focuses on the US, and I'm pretty sure the US is not the only country which allows the private sale of firearms.
Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting this. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Here from the NPOVN discussion. I think the name change makes sense as it allows the article to focus on the topic rather than the rhetoric. Note that I might make the title "Private Firearms Sales (United States)" only to try to reduce the length of the name with a preference for the US in parenthesis.
Springee (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Springee, wouldn't this be changing the topic also? It would have to describe private sales of which the "loophole" talk is only a part. If it were moved the content would not be NPOV would it? fiveby(zero) 00:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: Gun stores, pawn shops, outdoors stores, etc., are privately owned, and their sales to other private parties are private sales, but that doesn't seem to be what the article is about. This seems confusing. A clearer title might be something like Private sale exemption for gun sales in the United States, to make it clear this is about some kind of exemption. Although Gun show loophole is arguably non-neutral, it may also arguably be the WP:COMMONNAME and a somewhat accurate description of the phenomenon of gun sales occurring in substantial quantities by unlicensed people, as gun shows seem to be a forum that facilitates these sales. Habitual sellers at gun shows may be improperly claiming they are not really engaged in a commercial business enterprise when they really are, to an extent they would not be able to operate at such volumes if they were selling them out of their own home. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support: I'm here from the NPOVN discussion as well and in favour of renaming the page "Private sale of firearms in the United States" as this title is in alignment with numerous independent reliable sources and US go00vt. sources such as the ATF, DOJ etc. GSL is too narrow and not to mention a disputed term (when neutral supported alternatives are present) to cover ALL private sales/transactions. Responding to⁠ BarrelProof (talk) regarding the WP:COMMONNAME: There is no doubt that the term "Gun show loophole" is all over the place and it refers to private sales of SOME type or the other, but this term in every instance of its usage does not unanimously convey any ONE definition, some sources use only within the purview of a gun show, some others use it to mention private sales within gun shows AND online gun sales, this is just two of the wide array of definitions present for GSL. The article's lead attributes this term to ALL private sales, without much support from Rs-es. Fenharrow (talk) 19:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
A "private sale" of a firearm in the United States always refers to guns sold outside of gun stores (which are federally licensed with a FFL, Federal Firearm License). This might include guns sold at a gun show, but might also just be at a parking lot, in someone's home, or in any other "private" manner. There exists federal law presently that requires a background check any time that a gun is sold at a store (FFL), and therefore that sale is not "private" or a "private sale." State law differs on which states require background checks or other information to be provided to the state for purposes of public or law enforcement verification, but regardless, a "private sale" only ever refers to guns sold outside of gun stores, pawn shops, outdoors stores, or any FFL licensed gun seller in the business of selling firearms. This is a large part of why the article title change is so badly needed, so that all of that can be addressed, and not focus exclusively on gun shows and this "so-called" "loophole" other than in a sub-section of the article. Iljhgtn (talk) 19:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
"A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid a neutral point of view (including undue weight), often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. All POV forks are undesirable on Wikipedia, as they avoid consensus building, which violates one of our most important policies."...The reason for the NPOVN dispute and the suggestion of a redirect came from a desire to insert "controversial" and or "so-called" in the lead sentence, despite WP:LABEL and MOS:DOUBT which are NPOV related guidelines. I have since tried to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV using requested terms in the lead using the last paragraph, but even that appears insufficient and the focus remains on the lead sentence and title. I assume good faith, but I am also concerned with this continued endeavor to change the title and or lead sentence despite the lack of WP:WEIGHT or explicit sources. I feel it is simply a well intentioned mistake that does not improve the article according to MOS. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
I know what a POV fork is. What I don't understand is how changing the name to something that isn't "so-called" or at best an inaccurate political term makes for a better name vs something that I think we all agree is more neutral. If we want to put "political term" back in the lead then I think the current name would be OK. I would note that when looking back at say this 2017 version of the lead [1] (501 edits ago) the article called these political terms. It seems to have settled on "political term" around 2015. I see from the edit history you were well involved with the article back then. Perhaps you can explain why it has been fine, for such a long time, to call this a political term? Personally, I would be happy to keep it described as a political term that refers to. However, if the choice it treating it as a clear and accurate term vs describing what is actually in question, let's use the more accurate term and just have GSL redirect to this article. Springee (talk) 23:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose I oppose the proposed change. The term "loophole" refers to an exception to a rule or law which can be exploited by those who wish to evade the consequences of said rule or law.  The word "sale," on the other hand, refers to a transaction involving an exchange of goods for money.  These two concepts are not interchangeable. I do not think the name should be changed, as "gun show loophole" is the commonly accepted term to refer to the concept of this exception. If the title must be changed, it would make more sense to change it to include a phrase like "private sale exemption" or "private sale exception" or "private sale loophole". Also, this article has been designated as a "good article" with its current title, which is another reason not to change it. T g7 (talk) 23:32, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
The term 'loophole' refers to an intended exception? loophole. fiveby(zero) 23:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
I think loopholes can be intentionally created but it is not germane here so I will delete that part.T g7 (talk) 00:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
I believe NRA spokespeople have taken the position that it was intended, and therefore is not a "loophole" or that it therefore does not exist. The GSL article cites a BATFE submitted report to the USDOJ regarding Firearm Owners Protection Act, that states:
  • "In 1986, Congress loosened several controls it had established in the GCA. The stated purpose of the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA) was to ensure that the GCA did not "place any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law abiding citizens,"(5)but it opened many loopholes through which illegal gun traffickers can slip." [2]
The GSL article also cites another report from the ATF to the DOJ on the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, and in the conclusion it says:
  • The proposals also ensure that gun show promoters run their shows responsibly, that all firearms purchases at gun shows are subject to NICS checks, and that all firearms sold at the shows can be traced if they are used in crime. Further, these recommendations will guarantee that everyone selling at gun shows understands the legal obligations and the risks of disposing of firearms irresponsibly and that law enforcement has the resources necessary to investigate and prosecute those who violate the law. In short, as requested by President Clinton, the proposals will close the gun show loophole.
Here is the excerpt from the memo by former president Clinton:
  • "This loophole makes gun shows prime targets for criminals and gun traffickers, and we have good reason to believe that firearms sold in this way have been used in serious crimes. In addition, the failure to maintain records at gun shows often thwarts needed law enforcement efforts to trace firearms."[3]
There is more from other administrations, academics, etc... but perhaps this answers your question.
Cheers. DN (talk) 00:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
Well, i knew people referred to the situation as a 'loophole'. Was just surprised at "intended" loophole, and was just wondering if any sources had really argued that it met the legal definition. Pretty sure most or all definitions would say unintended. fiveby(zero) 01:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
The COMMONNAME example is Boston Massacre. Politicians don't give things accurate names all the time. It's a "non-neutral" title and doesn't need to start "The term 'Boston Massacre..." What it does do is clarify things for the reader in the first two sentences: "shot several" and "heavily publicized as a 'massacre'" with the scare quotes. So why not do something like that here? Why can't you just say it's not a legal loophole, there's no ambiguity, no one is getting around any existing laws because of a technicality. There are sources which say that, but are there any which say it is really a legal loophole? fiveby(zero) 02:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
Obviously this discussion is supposed to be about the title, but I'll indulge briefly.
Does prominence in sources seem to discriminate much between politicians and patriots such as Paul Revere and Samuel Adams? Adams arguably possesses both titles. The perception of a "Massacre" is attributed mainly to them according to sources.
GSL attributes perceptions much in the same way, but as you might agree, our subject is more complex. Laws are a bit less static and perhaps more prone to political scrutiny.
"Why can't you just say it's not a legal loophole, there's no ambiguity, no one is getting around any existing laws because of a technicality. There are sources which say that
We do explain that in a limited sense. In the second sentence, "Under U.S. federal gun law, any person may sell a firearm to...".
The assertion that there is "no ambiguity" has been explicitly disputed by multiple sources including this one [4] (page 97). Did you forget the link I cited for you in my previous reply, in regard to FOPA [5]?
The same for "no one is getting around any existing laws". See USDOJ 2024 report in the lead. "This report makes clear that black-market guns sold by unlicensed dealers without a background check are increasingly being found at crime scenes,”...
I'm paraphrasing Wintemute, but the fundamental flaw (besides the name) is not precisely that the loophole doesn't exist, it's that the original legislation "closing the gun show loophole" didn't regulate private sales everywhere [6] (page 104). Gun shows were certainly more prominent 30 years ago than they are now, but the name has stuck, and annoyingly so.
The NR article below also describes the ambiguity in how the law defines "engaged in a business" in the context of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act which is touted specifically to help address that as a means to help "close the gun show loophole". At the end it refers to "a matter of opinion" which is consistent with how we have tried to address and attribute views by gun rights and gun control advocates on the subject in the last paragraph of the lead.
  • "The Brady bill did not draw a very clear line between the professional firearms seller and the hobbyist. For example, if a professional firearms seller lost his license and wanted to unload his inventory all at once, he could say he was an amateur and, abracadabra, conduct his everything-must-go sale with no background checks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, issued the loophole-closing rule claiming authorization under the 2022 Bipartisan Safer Communities Act sponsored by Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida. It’s a matter of opinion whether this law directed the ATF to close the gun-show loophole" New Republic 2024
Cheers. DN (talk) 10:02, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
No need to indulge if you do not wish to. What Wintemute describes as ambiguity is not how the article define the loophole. And TNR's article and President Joe Biden just closed it. Or did he? points to more ambiguity in the phrase, along with the WH fact sheet which says there are 'loopholes' needing closed and not done until there are Universal background checks. fiveby(zero) 11:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
To be clear I am fine with the version of the lead when the article got GA status. I didn't agree with removing "political term" from the opening sentence. Put that long standing part back in and I'm fine with things as is. Springee (talk) 00:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment Is there any source that actually says it is a legal loophole (don't take too seriously, it's 1910) beyond just using the phrase? fiveby(zero) 00:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:NPOVNAME states that we should still use the common name of a topic even if it is controversial or includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids because the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper name (and that proper name has become the common name), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue. "Gun show loophole" (GSL) is the common name in the majority of reliable sources (including sources that question the validity of the term). For example, GSL had 692 Google Scholar results while the proposed title had zero. Additionally, the sources cited by @DN in the NPOVN discussion show that GSL is still in common usage. Media outlets refer to the so-called GSL or put GSL in quotations to denote that that is its common, but non-neutral, name. The neutrality of the term GSL should be discussed in the article text with due weight. (Responding to WP:LAW notification.) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
COMMONNAME/NPOVNAME is a powerful argument, but i'm struggling to figure out how to quickly fix the neutrality issues in the lead without resorting to something like "GSL is a political term with various meanings..." fiveby(zero) 11:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
This is exactly what the article did for almost 10 years. I'm not sure why it was recently changed to treat the term like a factual statement vs a term of art which refers to a range of perceived gaps in the background check system. Springee (talk) 11:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
The TNR article oversimplifies (IMO) to:
  • "The gun-show loophole is called a loophole because when Congress passed the Brady bill it neglected to require background checks for sales by people who aren’t professional firearms sellers."
It leaves out FOPA's changes to the Gun Control Act of 1968 that sort of made gun shows possible, but it's not "incorrect" as it were. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this is in response to. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per DN, T g7, and voorts. Additionally, the topic of this article is the gun show loophole, defined as the absence of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms by parties without a federal firearms license (FFL), including those done at gun shows. The article goes on to cover usage and controversies surrounding the term itself, the phenomenon of private sale of firearms in the United States in generally, and the legal status of such sales. The content is all unified under the current article title. Neutral sources using scare quotes, so-called, notorious, and the like only prove that this name everybody knows it by, even if it is loaded.--MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 07:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    See: WP:WORDISSUBJECT --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 08:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    I'm fine with the term being the subject. However, in that case we should state that this is either a "term of art" as the article used to say or "a political term" as the article said for nearly a decade. It should be clear this is a term, not a literal thing. Springee (talk) 10:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    I’m torn. I don’t love labeling the term in the opening sentence but I could live with it. If one is warranted, political is a far better label than the others that have been proposed. I’m coming around to the idea that the article might be improved by mentioning the issues with the term earlier in the article. I would hate for the opening few sentences to get bogged down with a laundry list of labels and caveats. Was there ever an explanation provided for why political was removed? I was following the prior discussion at first but it has since exploded. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 17:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    Clarifying: I could live with “political term” but would oppose other labels that have been suggested. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 17:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    I'm OK with any descriptor that is neutral in terms of if the term describes a good or bad thing. "term of art" was used in the past. I think it's more neutral but also more esoteric. I think political term is accurate as it's a term used in context of taking actions to effect policy changes. Searching Wikipedia for "political term" does turn up a lot of hits (not sure how to get my search result link to work nicely). Springee (talk) 18:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    “Political term” is better. “Term of art” suggests something more specialized or jargony. This is the opposite. “Gun show usageloophole” is in widespread common usage. Some critics highlight its lack of precision or accuracy and appeal to technicalities and bland official or academic sources to contest its usage. (See: endless questions about what constitutes a “loophole” and whether or not “gun shows” are a defining feature of legal private sales.) --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 18:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment "Gun show loophole" may be a common term that ANYBODY in the States may know. But Wikipedia is a global project. The current lead of the article reads

    "Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption is..."

    As indicated by numerous sources, "Gun show loophole" is a colloquialism that some sources describe as the sale of firearms amongst individuals SPECIFICALLY in a gun show and others say "...has allowed individuals to bypass background checks when purchasing firearms from private sellers they meet at gun shows or through online marketplaces." These words do not mean "comprehensive exemptions for private sales of firearms" AKA "private sale exemption". Not to mention that agencies such as the DOJ and ATF in their guides pertaining to private sales, refer to the notion as "private sales".
As a non-American who formerly had no knowledge of a notion called "gun show loophole" and how politically divisive this term is, the current lead is akin to saying to those unaware of any partisan context,

"Mangoes, also called as Oranges is..."

as though they are one and the same when they are not.
Wikipedia:Article titles says that precision and unambiguity are important ingredients for an article title. "Gun Show Loophole" is neither precise nor unambiguous, whereas "private sale of firearms in the US" or some variation thereof can be. The term "Gun Show Loophole" obviously would warrant a substantial part of the article. But it is a travesty to just let the status quo title continue. Fenharrow (talk) 12:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
"Gun show loophole" may be a common term that ANYBODY in the States may know. COMMONNAME prefers we evaluate how topics are discussed in RSes precisely so that we can avoid arguments from experience. It also states that the title should be recognizable to a reader that is familiar to the topic, not readers who know nothing about it. If you can present evidence of a more global common name that is also recognizable, I'm open to changing my !vote. The current suggested title, however, appears to be invented by the editor who opened this RM.
WP:PRECISE is about making ATs too specific vs. not specific enough. This article is about the GSL, so its title is precise. An impresice title would be "gun loophole" while a too precise title would be "GSL in the United States" since no other country has a GAL. Similarly, WP:TITLEDAB talks about how to disambiguate terms within titles. GSL is not an ambiguous term that could be confused with anything else.
Finally, as noted above, what is said in the lead is a separate issue from the AT. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment Thank you very much for being so open minded @Voorts. WP:COMMONNAME here is in fact "private firearms sales", I later added "in the United States" on the suggestion of @Hemiauchenia since the scope of this specific content is in fact limited to the United States. From WP:COMMONNAME, "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."
Alternatively, we could go with "Private firearms sales (United States)" or even "Private gun sales (United States)", or even "Private gun sales in the United States". Any of those meet the common name requirement as well as are the most neutral term, and then the GSL title could be a subsection within the overall body of this content as well as a redirect of course so that any reader who happens to type that would still get the "Private firearms sales" article. See this New York Times source referring to, "A federal gun law passed last year gave the Biden administration a powerful new tool to increase background checks on “private” firearms sales." [7]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/us/gun-laws-private-sales-background-checks-armslist.html Iljhgtn (talk) 18:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
"Private firearms sales" has not been demonstrated to be the common name for the topic of this article. I get different results depending on what I search for. Private gun sales leads on Google trends. The top hits are descriptions of the laws in my state, gun enthusiast forums on Reddit and Quora and advice on buying and selling guns, sites like the NRA and the US Concealed Carry Association (USCCA), and some sites on federal laws lower down the page. Private firearms sales returns nearly identical search results. Gun show loophole returns mostly discussions of federal law and discussions of the term as used in this article. It has far more hits than private firearms sales. The third hit is to USCCA, so it's not as though pro-gun sources are suppressed. The current article title reflects its content consistent with widespread usage. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 19:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree that COMMONNAME states that if there are "multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common", then we should choose one without problems. "Private gun sales" is the only proposed title you provided that is fairly common, with 308 results on Scholar (compared to the 692 for GSL that I noted in my !vote above). However, "private gun sales" and the "gun show loophole" are different things. This article is about the legal/sociocultural concept of a "gun show loophole", not about the sales of guns in the United States in general. The more appropriate article to discuss "private gun sales" in the United States writ large seems to be Gun politics in the United States. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. The article right after introducing the term, which I find to be misleading,  primarily addresses "firearms sales between private individuals." Aside from the section on "provenance", I believe that much of the content may not align with the central theme of "gun show loophole" for the reasons mentioned above and in the NPOVN discussion. Fenharrow (talk) 07:06, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Several of the sources in the History section refer to the “gun show loophole” or just “loopholes” and the term is used repeatedly in the article sections Government studies and positions and Contributing events. A text search for “loophole” shows it is used 90 times on the page (including many references). “Loophole” appears in every section of the article except State requirements, which is the shortest section of the article. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 17:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
@Fiveby raises an excellent point somewhere above, I don't believe there are many sources, if not any sources that refer to ALL private sales taking place THROUGH the gun show "loophole". The article having the word "loophole" however many times is irrelevant. GSL is not PSE. Nobody calls into question the private sales of firearms, the existence of a "loophole" per se is disputed. "GSL" may appear in search results and sources, but it is important to understand its specific usage. For example "Violence Policy Center" says the following "Legislation meeting the above criteria will once and for all close the gun show loophole and help prevent future tragedies resulting from felons, minors, and other prohibited individuals having unfettered access to firearms at gun shows."[8]https://vpc.org/publications/closing-the-gun-show-loophole/ This manner of using the term is not unique to this one source. In what authority are we calling in this article "the absence of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms" a "Gun show loophole" when the term "GSL" is clearly not a catch- all umbrella term for private sales? Fenharrow (talk) 08:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
GSL is a catch-all term for the private sale exemption, which is what this article is about. This article is not about the culture or politics of gun ownership in the U.S., but rather about the legal concept of an exemption/loophole. You might personally disagree that sources are using the term GSL correctly, but for purposes of an article title, our role is to determine how the term is commonly used. As I've noted above, GSL is commonly used by a wide range of sources, including sources on both sides of the political/cultural divide over gun ownership in the United States. The issues of incorrect use of the term or whether it's even a thing that actually exists can and should be discussed in the article, but nobody has presented any evidence that GSL isn't the common, catch-all name for the state of the law surrounding the sale of guns by private individuals at gun shows or in other circumstances.
Frankly, this RM discussion should not have been opened. It's fine that some editors have taken issues with the neutrality of this article. Those issues should continue to be discussed and resolved on talk here and/or at NPOVN. An RM discussion should not be used as a proxy to discuss article neutrality. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. GSL is the central organizing principle and primary topic of this article. The title is appropriate. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 15:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. Many good points are raised here and in the lengthy NPOV discussion above. Editors should focus on the content of the entire article and of the lead section as a whole. Arguments about the article title and wording of the opening sentence are too narrow. As I've said elsewhere, I oppose the move and support the current title. I also support reworking the first few paragraphs to better reflect the scope of the topic, including mentioning but not belaboring disputes about the term itself. Probably best to work collaboratively on proposed changes to the lead in Talk space and perhaps work backwards to the opening sentence. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 19:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    @Myceteae: This is a requested move discussion, not a discussion about cleaning up article content. There's a discussion above this one about how "gun show loophole" should be framed in the article. These discussions can run at the same time, but the discussions should be kept separate. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    I appreciate the gentle admonition. I have registered my opposition to the proposed move. My intent was to suggest an alternative to what is under consideration here and in the NPOV discussion, to be discussed separately. I can see now where this is unclear and risks exploding the move discussion beyond its scope. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 21:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. The proposed title is a much better description of an encyclopedic topic. Srnec (talk) 20:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per voorts. I think some thinking about scope and discussion about lead wording is appropriate. Title and lead both contribute to defining the scope. Here tho i think the consensus is trending towards or already at do not change the title. Any change to that would probably come from outside input and continuing discuss about the lead likely makes that more difficult. fiveby(zero) 16:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support - Per WP:NPOV. While the strongest argument in favor of the status quo would be that it's the common name by which this subject is typically referred to, it must be said that such usage is nearly always polemical in nature. A more neutral name, such as has been proposed, with a redirect is the best solution. Garnet Moss (talk) 18:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Have you read WP:NPOVNAME? It provides an important exception to NPOV. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I’m familiar, but I don’t think it applies. I confess it's an awkward middle case between examples provided. The proposed name may be far more encyclopedic but it’s not the unambiguously obvious encyclopedic choice; but nor is it similar to most unambiguous uses for NPOVNAME, as it retains its polemical character despite its commonality. In other words, the frequency of this term does not outweigh its unencyclopedic character. Garnet Moss (talk) 19:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Actually, I think it does apply, but it strongly favors the arguments in favor or supporting the title being changed if we read WP:NPOVNAME closely and even use the example cited. I just ran a Google NGRAM of Nadya Suleman and Octomom for example (the example mentioned in NPOVNAME "Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to. Thus, typing "Octomom" properly redirects to Nadya Suleman...", and it demonstrates that Octomom receives more hits than Nadya Suleman, but that Nadya Suleman is the title in keeping balance with NPOV and encyclopedic concerns, while Octomom is the redirect. Thus, in our current example and proposed article name change, 'Private gun sales in the United States' (the number one or two hit depending on the data) should be the title, while 'Gun show loophole' should be the redirect.
    [9]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Nadya+Suleman&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false
    [10]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Octomom&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false Iljhgtn (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    There's a huge distinction between a living person and our naming conventions for when we use pseudonyms as opposed to a politico-cultural concept with legal aspects. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    The rule applies in this case as well, and the example given there from WP:NPOVNAME is, "Typing "Antennagate" redirects the reader to a particular section of iPhone 4". Similar NGRAM data also applies there and here. Iljhgtn (talk) 20:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Nobody has shared any Ngram results regarding the current and proposed title. There's also a distinction between the colloquial name of a fleeting cultural event (Antennagate) and a longstanding political and legal dispute that has had a stable common name (GSL) for decades. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Just a quick note, I mentioned the GSL results from Ngram in my initial objection to the RM, but I wasn't sure if I was reading it correctly. [11] [12]
    Cheers. DN (talk) 23:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Google search results, Trends, and NGrams have all been raised and confirm GSL is common. Another issue is that GSL and private gun sales are not entirely interchangeable. This article describes and is organized around the longstanding political and legal dispute that has had a stable common name. NGram alone won’t resolve this; it requires an assessment of the article content, which is GSL. As I discussed here[13] search results are different depending on which term is used. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 00:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
    Private gun sales is THE WP:COMMONNAME that refers to ALL gun sales in the United States which are not subject generally to background checks.
    The GSL PRIMARILY refers to those at a gun shows, which are therefore not being conducted for business by an FFL and therefore are federally exempted from a background check, or at the very MOST to also include some online sales of guns (See NY Times and other WP:BESTSOURCES which all substantiate this as already shared). This is probably why GSL has been declining in general use according to all the public data (with "Private gun sales" getting around 400% the number of hits), and as we are advised by policy to follow, but not lead with the usage of such terms, the time has come to update the title of this article accordingly to some variant of "Private sale of firearms in the United States" if not that verbatim. Just "Private gun sales (United States)" may be the most accurate and best alternative if it comes to it, but the status quo is encyclopedically intolerable.
    [14]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=private+gun+sales&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3
    [15]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Gun+show+loophole&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 Iljhgtn (talk) 03:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. GSL started as a redirect to Gun shows in the United States in 2006 and remained in place for over 8+ years as only a redirect. The current article was born as a WP:POVFORK of a page away from Gun shows in the United States in the latter half of 2014 created by an editor named Lightbreather, with its GA status only earned in 2015 and not reviewed since. The article is supposed to encyclopedically cover the private sale of guns in the United States, which are exempted from background checks; therefore, the best, neutral, encyclopedic COMMONNAME term for such activity is something along the lines of what was proposed, though "Private gun sales in the United States" might actually be the best COMMONNAME that is also the most NPOV. "Gun show loophole" is an incorrect title if the aim is to describe the phenomenon (private gun sales in the United States, exempted from background checks) and then subsequently writing about "GSL" with the WP:FALSEBALANCE of something along the lines of "gun rights advocates" or "the NRA" don't think GSL is a real term, and everyone else just uses the term, is simply not true and isn't supported by the WP:BESTSOURCES.Iljhgtn (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    What evidence is there that Private gun sales in the United States and GSL refer to the same thing? DN (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    See the lead...
    • Twenty-two U.S. states and the District of Columbia have laws that require background checks for some or all private sales, including sales at gun shows. In some of these states, such non-commercial sales also must be facilitated through a federally licensed dealer, who performs the background check and records the sale. In other states, gun buyers must first obtain a license or permit from the state, which performs a background check before issuing the license (thus typically not requiring a duplicative background check from a gun dealer)
    Private gun sales in the US are also only exempt from background checks according to additional state laws. DN (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    Which is exactly why we need to change the title of the article but can make "Gun show loophole" a section within the article which covers just the gun show related exemption. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
    It's the other way around. Private gun sales were never subject to federal laws. If a state law didn't govern private sales then they are by default legal. States don't have to actively exempt private sales, rather states have to actively prohibit private sales (ie a "private sale" must be conducted via an FFL). Springee (talk) 22:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
    As Fenharrow pointed out at NPOVN (to which I reacted poorly and have since apologized)...GSL typically refers to federal laws, Brady and FOPA in particular. Some sources may refer GSL in regard to state laws that exempt private firearm sales, but there seems to be a clear distinction between simple commerce versus laws that affect said commerce.
    • "In fact, there is no gun-show loophole as such. Federal law is silent on the issue of gun shows and permits private-party gun sales to occur anywhere. As a result, such a limited measure might well have no detectable effect on the rates of firearm-related violent crime. Gun shows account for a small percentage of all gun sales in the United States — between 4 and 9%, according to the best estimates available. Similarly, they account for just 3 to 8% of all private-party gun sales" NEJM... "GSL" is distinct from private sales of firearms.
    Cheers. DN (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    "The current article was born as a WP:POVFORK of a page away from Gun shows in the United States"
    Obviously false. DN (talk) 05:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
    You have as much history with this article as anyone. Is the article supposed to be about the term or the range of things the term is used to describe or both? I don't think I would consider this topic specifically a POVFORK of the gun show topic. It's a legitimate topic by itself and would also be a legit topic if renamed PSE or similar. Springee (talk) 12:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
    There are plenty of reliable sources about the subject, but not much in the way of describing the term. As I understand it, there is already a set of guidelines (MOS) in place that explain how we are supposed to describe the subject, as well as guidelines on how not to describe it, in order to create a "good article". Putting emphasis on describing the term versus the subject seems to give undue weight IMO. DN (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
    That does depend on how we scope the article. The Climate crisis article is specifically about the term, not the state of the environment, etc. It's a perfectly reasonable way to handle this topic so long as the lead makes it clear the scope is the term and points to the location of the laws etc that are normally called GHL. However, I think that isn't really needed. We either should be clear in the opening (as the article did for almost a decade) that this is a political term vs a plain language definition. Alternatively, we give the article the plain language name and then include a section talking about the GSL name/history etc. Both should avoid any POVFORKS. You are certainly right that a POVFORK should be avoided. Springee (talk) 23:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per NPOV. I understand that many people have a vague notion of a 'gun-show loophole' but imo it's better for that term to redirect to the suggested, and context be properly explained.Riposte97 (talk) 10:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Should be renamed As a minimum. There are numerous problems here. Most germane to the question of this RFC is that it is a term designed to vilify and mislead regarding the right to private transfers of firearms (sales, gifts, inheritance etc). As such it is also a misleading term because only a tiny fraction of the exercises of the right targeted by the term are related to gun shows. Which also leads to an additional problem which the current situation presents which is that it mis-informs rather that informs, which is what Wikipedia articles are supposed to do. The deeper problem not addressed here is that it is not really about a distinct topic as the term has widely varying targets. But I think that renaming of the article would solve 95% of those problems. And then the term could be covered as a term. A good example of covering a term as a term is the Gay Agenda article. This is not the place that Wikipedia that Wikipedia covers the LGBT initiatives targeted by the term Gay Agenda.....to do so would be an implicit statement by Wikipedia that all of those initiatives are Gay agenda. Instead it covers the term, the term's meaning, uses, beginnings etc.. I think that 95% of the above noted problems would be to rename this article, with the proposed name being the best I can think of without getting too lengthy to cover the legal status of private transfers in the US, and then within the article there could be a section on the GSL term.
IMO the argument to use wp:commonname to retain the current name (for the included content) is not valid for several reasons and in reality is the reverse. First, is that is misreading of wp:common name it because it flat out says "generally accepted" and that is clearly not the case. It is designed to help provide good names for articles and not intended to override the WP:NPOV policy (which using "Gun show loophole" to cover all private transfer rights certainly violates) nor override the objective of providing informative articles vs. mis-informing via the current misleading title. Next it is not a common name for any distinct topic and folks (doubly so for those outside of the US) are not going to search for the actual content of this article by the term which mis-identifies the content and so it is NOT the common name. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gun_show_loophole/Archive_10&oldid=1260786812"