Talk:Goa/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

More comments, from FN

In addition to my earlier comments, may I add a few more? These are being divided into inaccuracies and non-NPOV, for the sake of clarity:

Inaccuracies

Page terms Goa "second smallest in terms of population after Sikkim". Manorama Year Book 2003 (page 639) puts Goa at fourth-smallest by population. Sikkim has 540,493 population, Mizoram 891,058 and Arunachal Pradesh 1,091,117. Goa has 1,343,998. I guess these might be 1991 or 2001 Census figures, not sure. But it still wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps your assumption is based on the situation before Mizoram and Arunachal Pradesh were upgraded from union territories to statehood?

• sizable Eurasian population

This could well be a bit of a myth. How sizable is sizable? 3%? 10%? To my knowledge the bulk of Goa's Catholics, despite the Portuguese sounding names, are local converts.

Panaji, Panjim ... the spelling for the state-capital keeps changing at different points of the essay. Again, noting all its names would also help!

Should you refer to the Portuguese "enclave" or "enclaves", considering that there were more than one pocket (Goa, Daman, Diu, Dadra, Nagar Haveli...) scattered near and around western India?

Terecol is a Portuguese spelling, hardly ever used now-a-days. While I have nothing particular against Portuguese or Lusitanised spellings (unlike some of my other contemporaries), I think either the current official name should be given, or, alternatively, a general point could be made that a number of places have multiple spellings in different languages. For the official spellings, one could refer to the Gazetteer. But this is not the last word either, since quite a few names are referred to differently in the popular, spoken jargon!

There is considerable climatic differences among the diverse regions of this small state. One could argue that the official temperatures, recorded probably at Altinho in the state capital don't fully reflect this diversity.

• Pesticides, fertilisers, tyres, tubes... these are not manufactured in the small scale, but rather in medium to large scale industries.

• In the "government and politics" section, I now see you've mentioned Panaji and Panjim. Why not be fair to all and include the Konkani Ponn'je and the Portuguese Pangim too? One is used by many, and the other was used over a long period of time.

• Ruling party doesn't need the "most number of seats" in the assembly, but needs to ensure that it is not defeated by the majority in the House. There is a subtle but significant difference here. Just for argument, if the main party has just 10 seats in the 40-seat assembly, every other grouping has less and the Opposition can't unite to oust the government, theoretically it could still remain in power! Just an illustration to drive home my point.

• The Governor's role is largely ceremonial, but (s)he plays a crucial role when it comes to deciding who should form the next government -- as events for at least the past decade-and-half have shown in instability-prone Goa.

• Two other parties in the assembly now are the United Goans Democratic Party and the Nationalist Congress Party. Small in size, with at best three legislators elected on their symbol (in the UGDP case, less for NCP), they've nonetheless played a significant role in Goa's politics.

• "In many parts of India, the term Goanese is used instead of Goan".

In the coloured postings made by some earlier, the point about the above got lost. As it stands, the statement is inaccurate and incomplete.

Perhaps a more suitable rendering would be: "Goans are sometimes referred to as 'Goanese', but a section of the population is known to take offence to being called this term, and prefer the use of 'Goan'." My point is that the "many parts of India" might be inaccurate. Also, this appelation is often used out of ignorance rather than malice, as was made out to be earlier!

• Goa's Catholic population should be closer to 26.5% if one recalls right, going by the 2001 census.

• Two seats to the Lok Sabha (lower house), but you've not mentioned one seat in the Rajya Sabha (upper house).

• Celebrations for all festivals usually last for a few days and include parties and Celebrations for all festivals usually last for a few days and include parties and balls. >>> This is way off! You're mixing up religious and cultural events. The section of culture could do with some re-working.

• Mediterranean style architecture.>>> a more-acceptable term in usage is "Indo-Portuguese" architecture, suggesting the fusion of two cultures...

Non-NPOV

• Portuguese admiral Afonso de Albuquerque defeated the ruling Bijapur kings on behalf of a local sovereign, Timayya l

This is a mischevious to show a colonial endeavour as a sub-contract for a local ruler. While the role of Timayya in suggesting that the Portuguese attack Goa (for his own reasons, in a power-play) is well documented, to use language to suggest that Albuquerque defeated the local ruler "on behalf of a local sovereign" is surely not NPOV. Was Timayya a "local sovereign"? I'm not sure...

There is some historical evidence to suggest that migration of people from Goa to Mangalore and Kerala also happened before the Portuguese or "Muslim" rulers set up base in Goa. This perhaps needs to be cross-checked. To explain the migration as due to Portuguese religious intolerance may be politically correct (and convenient) nowadays, but not very inaccurate.

• Using words like "notorious" to describe political instability might be a value judgement. Are stable governments always good? Isn't instability a built-in possibility in a parliamentary system?

• • • Konkani </wiki/Konkani> is the state language. Marathi </wiki/Marathi>,

the state language of neighbouring Maharashtra </wiki/Maharashtra>, is spoken by many Hindus who adopted it as a symbol of rejection of Portugal. English </wiki/Indian_English> also is widely spoken by many residents, especially among the Christian </wiki/Christian> population. Portuguese </wiki/Portuguese_language> is still spoken as a secondary language in some areas, among certain sections of the Goan population, and especially among some of the state's senior citizens ? more particularly, in the city-district of Fontainhas in the capital.

Language -- because of conflicting perspectives among different caste and community groups in Goa -- is a very controversial issue here. The above chapter reflects extreme non-NPOV and bias against sections on ground of their language used. It is also inaccurate! ("Marathi... is spoken by many Hindus." They don't speak it much in Goa, but prefer it for cultural. literary and their religious activities, for a whole complex set of reasons.)

If given the chance, I would have framed it thus: Following the end of Portuguese rule, the most widely used languages are Konkani in the world of speech, and English and Marathi for official, literary or educational purposes. Language is a controversial issue in Goa, over which an agitation was fought between two contending pro-Konkani and pro-Marathi camps between 1985-87. After the agitation ended in 1987, a complex formula grants 'official language' status to Konkani, while Marathi is also allowed to be used "for any or all official purposes". But the law is difficult to implement, in part because every "official purpose' for which a language is to be used needs to be notified; and given the rivalry between groups supporting the two languages, this would probably result in a stalemate as it has. Besides, officialdom and other sections might be reluctant to move away from the current status quo. Most students in Goa complete their high school through the English medium. But primary school is largely run in Marathi (in government) and Konkani (in private, but government-aided schools). Portuguese, the earlier language of the elite, has been hit by shrinking numbers, though a small section still prefer it as the medium for discourse at home, while even a few Portuguese books have been published in recent years. Goa was home to the last Portuguese daily newspaper published in Portuguese, till 1983, when the 1900-founded 'O Heraldo" switched to being published in English, in part due to dwindling readership. Youngsters have possibilities of studying Portuguese, if interested, both as part of the school curriculum (as a third language, in some schools) or through classes in the main towns, which have stepped up activity after the normalisation of Indo-Portuguese relations. Goa University also offers bachelor and Master's degrees in Portuguese, though there are only a few students going in for this specialisation.

• ... Hindus "who built their temples in European style"... Can you imagine a temple in "Western style"? I think in the attempt to squeeze through a non-NPOV, and show that Goa has close links with the Portuguese, such inaccuracies have crept in. It would not be wrong to say that some influences from the Portuguese are visible in some of Goa's temples. This topic has been written on by better qualified people like architect Pravin Sabins.

• Football </wiki/Football_%28soccer%29> is Goa's most popular sport with

cricket a close second. Though popular, cricket does not enjoy the same frenzy that has gripped the rest of India >>> Can I smell traces of the 'we are different from the rest of India' logic here, or am I just being paranoid?

Firstly, to talk about the "rest of India" is a gross simplification; every part of India has its own diversity. Undeniably, football is very popular in significant parts of Goa, and half of the top 12 teams on the Indian national football league are from Goa (currently, and Dempo's has just won the league). But there's a POV creeping in for anyone who knows.

Perhaps what might be more closer to the picture is: "Football is widely popular in Goa, particularly around Margao where the main football stadium, at the Fatorda locality and named after Jawaharlal Nehru, is based. Football is also played in local fields, during the non-monsoon, non-planting season, particular in central coastal Goa. In recent decades, a growing influence of cricket is visible, in large part fuelled by the massive coverage this sport gets on national television, thus making an impact even in a part of South Asia which hardly had any contact with the British Empire".

[Salgaocars, the football team, is misspelt as Salgaokar. Names of Sporting Clube de Goa, a newish team which narrowly missed winning the national football league on the past weekend, has been missed....Is it fair to suggest that Goa has just one football stadium? What about Vasco and Duler-Mapusa, and the many smaller fields or grounds that are played on in season?]

Needing to be added

It might help to include all the four different names used for the state-capital: Panaji (official, post 1961), Pangim (the Portuguese term), Panjim (used mostly by English speakers) and Ponn'je (the verbal name used by almost every Konkani speaker of the widely spoken local language). Multiple place names for Goan places (because of the multiplicity of languages used in the region) do cause confusion. For instance Bicholim and Dicholi are the same place. Nothing to do with the "as the Indians say" explanation, but the use of multiple languages by different segments of the population.

Something could be said about air connections, number of flights per day, crowding of the airport in the afternoons, direct charter flights from Europe, plans to build a new airport at Mopa (likely to take quite some time), etc.

• Western English songs have a large following in most parts of Goa. Traditional Konkani folk songs too have a sizable following. Manddo, the traditional Goan music which originated in the nineteenth century, is sung and danced on special English songs have a large following in most parts of Goa. >>> This is an inadequate description of a complex subject.

• Food section seems inadequate.

• Flora and fauna could be fleshed out into a larger section.

• In media section, the Marathi and Konkani papers have been left unnamed. Likewise, there are three local cable-news firms -- Goa365 (English), Goa Newsline and Goa Plus (both Konkani) -- that broadcast each evening, and have a good and growing audience. Goa also has a fairly high presence in cyberspace, and this is significant for a small state.

• I'm not sure just two schools are run by the ICSE board. In fairness, it could also be stated that the "private" schools are actually, in almost all cases, government funded.

• External links section could be improved. Too small for a state which has been active in cyberspace since the mid-1990s. Not sure if http://www.goa-world.com is included. fredericknoronha 21:18, 22 May 2005 (UTC))

Thanks for your critical analysis of the text. I've dealt with most of your objections below:

Fixed

• Population statistics that Goa is the fourth smallest
• Terekhol River
• Small scale --> medium scale
• Rajya Sabha seat was already mentioned
• NCP and UGDP parties
• Governor's role
• Fixed the support of a simple majority for legislators
• I've split the media and education sections and inserted the topic on medium of instruction and cable channels.
• Salgaocar
• Mediterranean to Indo-Portuguese style
• Text on sports such as football
• Temple architecture... Portuguese influences on temples

Not addressed

• On the climate issue, most of Goa is situated on level ground close to the sea. Due to the state's proximity to the sea, lack of elevation in densely populated places and small area, the temperature difference wouldn't be more that 5/6 °C. (A note on the elevated regions is already mentioned there)
• Size of Goa's religious statistics. A credible source (URL) is needed to reference it.
• use of "notorious". A government a year is not a good sign for democracy.
• The names of Panaji would be more suited for the city article itself. Since Panjim is widely in use as an English word, the name should be added since this is the English wikipedia. The buck should stop here regarding the names.
• Exclaves is the correct term
• Use of "Goanese" and "parts of India". In Sikkim and northern West Bengal, the term Goan is unheard of. As its stands, its neither a POV nor fiction.
• migration of people from Goa to Mangalore – no resources found
• Portuguese admiral Afonso de Albuquerque defeated the ruling Bijapur kings on behalf of a local sovereign, Timayya – further debate needed.
• Information on vernacular newspapers. -- no sources as of now

I would also request you to Wikipedia:Be Bold and directly add missing content to the page.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 11:43, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Unanswered questions

Not knowing anything about the subject, I was left with the following questions after reading this article:

• Which is the "left bank" of the Mandovi River? Can we find a less ambiguous term?
• What does it mean for Mumbai to be the "judicial capital"? Is that term used in the region? What's up with the Bombay High Court? That article doesn't seem to explain the extraterritorial jurisdiction weirdness. Is that due to Goa's special historical status, or does is this a national court? Does Goa have a highest state court with state-specific jurisdiction, like a U.S. state does?
• What is meant by the "British Indian model of civil laws framed for different religions"? Is there a convenient article to link to that might explain this?

-- Beland 1 July 2005 03:04 (UTC)

1. In geographical terms, a "left bank" is named with respect to the flow of the river. Be Bold and change it to something clearer.
2. In India each state usually has its own High Court, the highest court in the state. However many small states in India come under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring state's High Court (High courts in most states are named after the capital city). The High Court in this case, the Bombay High Court, is situated in Mumbai, the capital of Goa's northern neighbour Maharashtra. The Court however, has a bench (a permanent branch) at Panaji, the administrative capital of Goa. The appointment of judges and registering of lawyers in the bar council are done in Mumbai. The national court, the highest court in India is the Supreme Court of India. I however, cannot offer you an explaination as to why Goa does not have an exclusive High Court. (Perhaps the area is too small?)
3. There are two kinds of laws in India (like in most countries). One for criminal cases and the other for civil cases. The criminal cases are uniform throughout the country (except for Jammu and Kashmir, where it does not apply). Civil cases dealing in marriage, divorce, inheritance, adoption, property disputes etc. are not uniform throught the country. For each religion, specific laws are framed. For example a Christian is not allowed to be the adopted parent of a child in India, though he may be a guardian. OTOH, a Hindu can be the non-biological parent. Another example is the inheritance laws in India, different for each religion. In Uttar Pradesh, the shariat is also brought into action.
   • Now Goa is the only state in India which has a Uniform Civil Code (inherited from the Portuguese) that governs its citizens. This means that the civil law applies equally to all its citizens and there is no exclusive law for each religion.
   • During the framing of the Constitution of India, it was mentioned that the country should seek a Uniform Civil Code. But the lack of political will and vociforous protests from Muslim organisations, and to a smaller extent by Christian organisations, means that the issue is put on a back burner. The Supreme Court too has recommended a UCC.

=Nichalp «Talk»= July 1, 2005 07:39 (UTC)

Sizeable eurasian population??

I seriously doubt that goa has a sizeable eurasian population. If the person who's written this is talking about the "bhatkars" then they were just brahmin converts and nothing else. And which "priveledged caste" are we talking about ? the one which existed for thousands of years in India ? I think we should stop writing stories and focus on plain facts. Leningrad

1. Please use the + to post a new topic. By convention, all new posts are at the bottom.
2. The Portuguese had the tendancy to intermarry with the locals wherever they went. [User:Frederick Noronha]], a noted Goan writer has checked this page, and so too other Goan locals. I don't think it is still wrong after so many months. Please discuss before removing large amounts of text and creating a gaping hole in the history.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 11:49, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Revisiting the page (FN), July 18

Just a few comments after awhile: I have commented on some of the more glaring biases, errors etc that stood out earlier. Since I may have not commented on all, it does not necessarily imply that I agree with what is presented or vouch for its accuracy. In fact, the above poster seems to have a point about questioning the view that Goa has a sizeable Eurasian population. How sizeable is sizeable? Half percent? Two percent? I'm not sure.

Also, the editors need to be careful about not falling in between warring caste-based camps.

There is still quite some cleaning-up to be done. For instance: some of the reference books are described as "a patriotic critique of Indian imperialism and colonialism in Goa" or "An Indianist account in English" and "A patriotic account in Portuguese." What is "patriotic" and what isn't? By the definition being used, being pro-Portuguese is "patriotic". Likewise, terming one perspective as "Indianist" is surely not strongly debatable. Lot of non-NPOV terms in the above.

Inspite of this page being rated highly on Wikipedia, overall, I must say your work is getting badly caught up between fanatical viewpoints and religious extremism of both Catholic and Hindu perspectives. A small set of bigoted perspectives seems determined to slant the writings in a particular direction. I disagree with giving a religious to colonial history, whether by way of subtly praising the Portuguese, or unnecessarily magnifying the fallouts of their rule and making it seem as harshly anti-Hindu. It's more complex than that. There were periods of collaboration, and times of conflict, on all sides and cutting across religious divides. The subtle implications of a lot of the writings of this page needs a thorough fact-check. --fredericknoronha 21:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Annexation

For clarity I am Portuguese and fully in favour of Goa being part of India. However I have the impression, from several sources, that the part of the article that refers to annexation is not fully accurate. From my checking, the UN acknowledged the Portuguese sovereignty in the 50's. After the annexation the security council was to issue a declaration of repudiation of the act, which was vetoed by the Soviet Union. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can edit the story if appropriate. Thanks.

Needless to say, it would be much better if the two governments reached an agreement by then (as they did in the 70's) avoiding a lot of traumas.--BBird 19:20, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

You've done the hard work of crosschecking facts, so its best you edit the text and cite the sources. You too have the power to add/correct text here. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 12:49, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks I know that. I just did not want to change a (maybe) politically sensitive area without (i) warning (ii) giving the opportunity to someone more knowlagabe to do it or to repply. --BBird 13:03, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

For the record -- changes I just made UN resolution vetoed by the Soviet Union V Projecto de resolução apresentado pela França, Turquia, Estados Unidos da América e Grã-Bretanha e aprovado por 7 dos 11 membros do Conselho de Segurança, mas bloqueado pelo veto soviético. (18 de Dezembro de 1961)

«The Security Council, - Recalling that in Article 2 of the Charter all members are obligated to settle their disputes by peaceful means and to refrain from the threat or use of force in a manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations, - Deploring the use of force by India in Goa, Damão and Diu, - Recalling that Article 1 of the Charter specifies as one of the purposes of the United Nations to develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, - Calls for an immediate cessation of hostilities; - Calls upon the Government of India to Withdraw its forces immediately to positions prevailing before 17 December 1961; - Urges the parties to work out a permanet solution of their differences by peaceful means in accordance with the principles embodied in the Chapter; - Requests the Secretary-General to provide such assistance as may be appropriate.

• Just some comments below --fredericknoronha 19:13, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• There are two issues here -- the 'legality' of the situation and the political reality. As far as the first goes, in the comity of nations 'legality' is decided according to the strength of the actors involved. Wasn't Portugal an ally/part of NATO at that stage, and in alliance with Britain for many centuries? So what else did we expect as far as the US-lead Western alliance, then too (as again now) a dominant player on the world stage? Does a vote one way by US and its allies in a Cold War situation grant legitimacy on the actions of Portugal, and a veto by the other camp need to be dismissively treated as somehow invalid? (The USSR veto goes in line with its policy of largely backing the decolonisation movements.)

• As far as the politics of the situation goes, by the middle of the 20th century, it was more than clear that European colonial rule was an idea which could not be any more sustained. That similar contradictions would arise among and within the newly-decolonised nations themselves is wholly another matter. But I think we should not take a position of being apologists for colonialism or one side of history. That will not be NPOV. The facts need to be stated as they happened, regardless of who comes out in good light and who doesn't.

• Lastly, I also disagree with the term: "1955 reclamation of Goa (info)" for the video footage. This is as one-sided as the earlier pro-colonialism articles which I have been protesting against. The word "reclamation" suggests that Goa was rightfully part of India, and India was just claiming it. Unfortunately, history isn't so cut and dry, or neatly played out. It's a messy affair, with a lot of inconvenient facts strewn all around. Fact is that much of Asia didn't quite follow the nation-state idea till we learnt it from Europe ;-) So saying whether Goa was being "reclaimed" (or the word earlier used, to suggest that a campaign against European colonialism in Asia was misplaced), would be a value judgement.

• May I also caution you that in this politicised setting -- where we are all taking political sides, rather than explaining the position as it is/was, we might fall into another trap. It might be best to say "1955 protests (satyagraha) over Goa"; which is what it was. Or something to that effect. If you say "Goan" protests, you would get an outcry from those who would (rightly) point out that not all were Goan. Then, if you say Indian protests, it would suggest that no Goans were involved, and that both "Goan" and "Indian" are differing entities. In a word: just make sure you can avoid the pitfalls. --fredericknoronha 19:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree (broadly) with all your comments. My edist were mostly intended to put some factual truth in this part of the artlicle, which was in great need of it --BBird 20:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Velha Goa

Under the History section, the last sentence of the second paragraph: ...Adil Shahis of Bijapur who made Velha Goa... I doubt the city was known by that Portuguese name in the years prior to European contact. Does anyone know the original name? 128.148.5.109 (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate Image description

I feel that the following image description is inappropriate:

Mangueshi Temple, Goa - One of the tourist Industry 's best atraction.

It is a place of worship, not some amusement park and deserves a better comment. The existing comment reduces it to a trivial tourist spot, no different from a beach? Any suggestions?--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC) i agree with Deepak D'Souza. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluegoa (talk • contribs) 11:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the [:Image:File112.jpg|image description page]]. I'd be happy with a more plain description like "Mangueshi Temple, a Hindu temple in Old Goa". I think I'll change it to that now. If it is popular then maybe the word "popular" should be added? Graham87 04:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

From my point of view this is a fantastic web site that gives quite a graphic account of the state of Goa. Regards Mangueshim Temple, it is a tourist attraction in it's architectural beauty. Just as other Churches and Temples are also architecturally beautiful. One scene which I cannot forget is if you stand at the river bank of Mandovi at Divar and look back at Old Goa, you see the green trees ( coconut trees) linning the bank with their green tops and above that sie the yellow spires of the Churches. It is a fantastic view prticularly at sun rise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.41.34.62 (talk) 20:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Date Inconsistency

The article says "Goa has a long history stretching back to the 3rd century BC, when it formed part of the Mauryan Empire," but the Mauryan empire ended in 185 BC (see the article on the Mauryan Empire). One of the two articles must be wrong. RajeevA 03:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

But BC dates run backwards, so this means Goa starts in 300 BC by the Mauryas but the Mauryan empire itself declines by 185 BC.I don's see anything wrong in this statement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.130.183 (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Potential Copyright Violation

The line: "Goa soon became their most important possession in India, and was granted the same civic privileges as Lisbon." strongly resembles the copyright-protected content in Encyclopedia Britannica. I don't know which is the original and which the copy. Perhaps it can be modified in Wikipedia to avoid copyright problems. RajeevA 04:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

If you could point to the version it would be great . I believe that the 1911 version of EB is now outside copyright zone and, if it is taken from there it wont hurt. A simpler solution would be to reword the statement and avoid an issue. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I accessed the article online. The preferred citation styles that Encyclopedia Britannica has are, "Goa." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 16 May 2007, and Goa. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 16, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Hard to say when the article was written, but the lines in question refer to the state of affairs circa 1600. The exact line in Britannica is "It was granted the same civic privileges as Lisbon.".RajeevA 19:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine! it needs to be rewritten to avoid copy vio. Go Ahead!--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

mention of Bollywood films shot in Goa

What I was trying to say in my recent edit summary was that I don't think Bollywood films should be mentioned in the article. To me it's quite obvious that people will choose to film in a place close to them. Mentioning Bollywood films in this article would be like mentioning in the Queensland article that many films in Australia are shot in Queensland. Graham87 12:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyright status of video ?

Can someone confirm that the video Image:Goa 1955 invasion.ogg is indeed public domain ? Th file information says that it is a Universal newsreel from 1955, which would mean that it is still copyrighted, as per my understanding. Abecedare 07:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Goa nominated for WP:FAR

Goa has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --Dwaipayan (talk) 08:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Goa which is founded by the Comunidades has no mention of the comunidades. Who the hell has suggested that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gaunkars_of_Goa Integrate the content before you move further. --Gaunkars of Goa (talk) 05:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Education

Currently the section is more conversational than encyclopedic. Perhaps we can use Karnataka#Education as a model to follow. Here are some pertinent refs:

• 2001 Census: literacy rates
• School enrollment statistics
• Various education related statistics
• Where East Looks West: Success in English in Goa and on the Konkan Coast Interesting book, may be relevant for education, demographics, culture and media sections.

I'll work this information into the article over the next few days. Abecedare 02:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

What about the other top schools like Don Bosco and Sharda Mandir ?--Ad1970india (talk) 14:29, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Sub Headings

As part of the shortening of the article, I've noticed that some sub-headings have been removed. Eg. in the section 'Media and Communication', the subheadings used to be 'Radio', 'Television', 'Telecom', 'Print media', etc. I feel that these subheadings improve the readability of the article, and they should be included. Similarly, we could also have subheads like festivals, music, cuisine, architecture in the section 'culture', and also subheads in other sections like transport. The Discoverer 05:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur...Gaimhreadhan^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} • 08:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

India's invasion of Portuguese Goa

Is it worth having a separate article on that? Most of the other Portuguese overseas colonies have their own article. I don't think I know enough about it to write it Speedboy Salesman 17:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Refer article Invasion of Goa. If you want to add more I can help. Discussion on the UN draft resolutions (s/pv.998) can be added. Also refer "Nehru Seizes Goa" by Leo Lawrence.--Ad1970india (talk) 18:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

You need to look at the date. The last post was in September 2007, nearly 2 years back. The dicussion has been "closed" from a long time. --Deepak D'Souza 04:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Demographics Section

The following statement is not true:

Goa's major cities include Vasco, Margao, Marmagao (also known as Murgaon or Mormugão), Panjim and Mapusa. The region connecting the last four cities is considered a de facto conurbation, or a more or less continuous urban area.

Vasco and Marmagao is more or less a conurbation, however the other three are not. The distances between the four places (Vasco-Marmagao, Mapusa, Panjim and Margao) is about 20-30 kms each at the very least and there are enough recognised villages and smaller towns along the way.

Feel free to make the changes yourself and to support them with a source or sources. Also, please sign your additions to this page by striking the tilde key four time. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 17:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I am wondering why no mention is made of the striking difference in the child mortality rates of the North Goa and South Goa: http://goagovt.nic.in/gag/arepop.htm Anonymouslyfornow (talk) 11:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

We were waiting for you to add it. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:51, 21 December 2008 (UTC) It may take a while :) Anonymouslyfornow (talk) 19:20, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

There has been a new census in 2011, so the statement about the 2001 census should be updated. :) Avelynodc (talk) 10:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Merge from Gomantak

• Support A separate article is not necessary. A redirect will do. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 09:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

NPOV in architecture

The language under "Architecture" has some unnecessarily poetic and flowery language: "Their vision was lofty and ambition sky high, but it blazed a short trail like a meteor," "a delightful combination," "this little jewel," "The friendly harbours that had sent out sparkling blue ripples to the world were to backflow and become the road of conquest and colonization," etc. Some of the pieces in question have pertinent information, but they need to be written in a neutral tone appropriate for an encyclopedic article.(JorgenMan (talk) 19:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC))

Inclusion of other territoties of Goa (India)

This is for your kind information that there exist other territories within the territory of Goa. The teritories comprises of village communes called as 'COMMUNES OF GOA'(also called as 'Comunidades' in Portuguese and 'Gaunkaries' in Konkani). There are a total of 223 Communes in Goa. More than two-third of the land of Goa (other than forest) belongs to the Communes and the rest belongs to the Government of Goa. As of today the Govt. of Goa stands illegally on the Comunidades. The mentioned area of 3,702 sq. km includes Govt. forest, private forest, Govt.land, and private land of Communes. Please make necessary corrections to geographical area of the state of Goa. A grave error has been committed by not including 'Communes of Goa' in the 'Subdivisions' section. Please include the following;

Subivisions

223 Communes of Goa

A link on 'Communes of Goa' is desired on the Goa page. Same has been requested on the India Page.

I request members to be well informed before making rude statements especially if ignorant of the facts. Kindly make necessary changes immediately because a comprehensive article on 'The Communes of Goa' is due to be published on wikipedia.

References are given below;

For more information; http://www.geocities.com/newagegoa/Chapter8.html?1146661378765 --59.95.35.27 (talk) 08:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is WIKI sleeping? Discuss here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:INB#Comunidades_Of_Goa_.3F--Gaunkars of Goa (talk) 16:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear Gaunkars, wikipedia never sleeps, please value people's contributions, there is no need to loose temper. As far as Comunidades are concerned, yes, they should have rightful place on wikipedia since they are the founding establishments of Goa. The geographical territories are in question, this situation has arisen because State of Goa was formed in a haste without due considerations to Constitutional obligations, also Comunidades somehow got missed out from the special status/provisions (schedules). Your references though give enough insight into the Comunidade instituions and it's legal basis, we would still need help of experts on this subject. A few court orders would be very helpful. --Ad1970india (talk) 04:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

References

History

I am sorry to say, Goa's history does not start with the Mauryan Empire, but stretches back to antiquity. There were tribes known as Asuras, Mundaris, Kols and Kharwas now known as Kharvi, Velip, Dhangars, and Gauddi. Later many clans, groups, communities from different regions settled in Goa and established village communities. Please refer to the book titled “The Cultural History of Goa”, written by Anant Ramkrishna Sinai Dhume. Kindly start history with the aboriginals of Goa--Ad1970india (talk) 18:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC).

You are welcomed to edit the page and contribute. Kensplanet^T_C 18:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, Ad1970india. We welcome new contributors to wikipedia and encourage them to be bold and make edits. But let me make you aware of some things. Since this article is about Goa, the history section has been kept short and concise. You may want to consider making edits to this article: History of Goa which is more detailed. Of course , please ensure that your source meets Wikipedia's rules regarding Reliable Sources. --Deepak D'Souza 04:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Tiatr

Could some "experts" take a look at this article and make sure I didn't mess up anything too badly? I stumbled on the subject and tried to do the best I could with what I could find. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Mention of Comunidades

Dear Friends, Let us stop our arguments here. But it is very important to make a mention of the Comunidades of Goa, without it, Goa seems to be an empty vessel. A comprehensive article on Goa Comunidades (with sources/references)is ready to be published. I request you to study it thoroughly to your satisfaction, thereafter it will have to be merged into Goa ( since you don't like to call it a separate territory). If you feel some content does not match wikipedia's norms, we can always discuss. Can I modify the existing article WP:Comunidade ? --Gaunkars of Goa (talk) 13:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

First things first GoG, it's not what we like or don't like that matters. What matters is Relaible sources and verifiable content. Second, stop putting a "WP:" before everything. WP is a prefix for wikiprojects. Once you undertand these facts, go ahead and add something on the Communidades. Not more than two lines, just a brief note. Dont make it a seperate subsection. Add it to "People and Culture" section in the article. Add a good reference to it . Be aware that if you insist on adding your own spin to it we will remove it. We will help with any formatting if necessary.--Deepak D'Souza 17:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not want to leave out anything on the Comunidades, whatever be mentioned will be based on facts and reliable sources only, and verifiable. The point (urgent need) is that wikipedia editors should conscientiously verify it. You may thereafter decide what can be integrated into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa . The existing article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunidade has multiple issues and needs a major face uplift, and being competent I am doing the needful.--Gaunkars of Goa (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Lets concentrate on this article right now. Take a look at the subsections within People and Culture. Create a small paragraph just like the subsection Goa#Dance and music. In case you are not sure, you can put your section here, below this. We will discuss it first, then put it on the article page, OK? --Deepak D'Souza 17:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Kindly take a look at the userpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gaunkars_of_Goa , still under construction. It has a wealth of information for the ignorant. I want to upload the same to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunidade. --Gaunkars of Goa (talk) 05:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Deletion!

According to Elsie Wilhelmina Baptista, author of The East Indians: Catholic Community of Bombay, Salsette and Bassein, Christianity is belevied to be introduced to Konkan by St. Bartholomew, one of the twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ, who preached the Gospel and converted some locals of the Konkan.[24] Yet no concrete evidence has been found that there were any permanent settlements of Christians in Goa before the 16th century. It was only after the advent of the Portuguese voyager Afonso de Albuquerque discovered and took firm control Pan-Goa on the 25 February 1510, that Roman Catholic Christianity began to be propagated reached Goa.[25] With the establishment of Goa Inquisition in 1560, a large sections of the Konkani speaking native population became Roman Catholics and are popularly known as Goan Catholics, who account for the largest Christian community in Goa.

I had deleted this sourced content for following reasons: 1.This article is about Goa and not about origin Catholicism in Goa 2.Special article;Goan Catholics already exists 3.Most of the people will find this information biased 4.There is not need to stress on how Catholicism started in Goa in this article,this will also make necessary to write about how Islam started in Goa,and even history of Hinduism in Goa

Nijgoykar (talk) 02:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I think a brief outline of how Christianity gained a foothold in Goa is relevant to this article because, (1) it has had a very significant impact on Goan life and culture, and (2) unlike the presence of Hinduism, it is an outlier, and therefore needs explanation. I am not sure what part of the description you found to be biased - but if you can point that out we can certainly adjust the language. We can also consider if the description is best placed in the Demographics section, or whether History or Culture sections will be more appropriate. Abecedare (talk) 03:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)s

There's this purely POV sentence that keeps getting added, I've reverted twice, but not going to do it once more, but it doesn't belong in the article. -SpacemanSpiff 05:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Not POV at all... even

According to Elsie Wilhelmina Baptista, author of The East Indians: Catholic Community of Bombay, Salsette and Bassein, Christianity is belevied to be introduced to Konkan by St. Bartholomew, one of the twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ, who preached the Gospel and converted some locals of the Konkan.[24] Yet no concrete evidence has been found that there were any permanent settlements of Christians in Goa before the 16th century. It was only after the advent of the Portuguese voyager Afonso de Albuquerque discovered and took firm control Pan-Goa on the 25 February 1510, that Roman Catholic Christianity began to be propagated reached Goa.[25] With the establishment of Goa Inquisition in 1560, a large sections of the Konkani speaking native population became Roman Catholics and are popularly known as Goan Catholics, who account for the largest Christian community in Goa.

is not so significant... it keeps getting added too....

what about that?

Nijgoykar (talk) 05:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

You need to take your crusade to rewrite history elsewhere. -SpacemanSpiff 05:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

History says it all,so no need for me to rewrite it,you do not seem to be from Goa, so you do not have a right to speak unless you know the reality and the myths.

Nijgoykar (talk) 06:04, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the detailed religiuos history based on the FA version of this article[1]. It will simpy encourage users to add their relegious communities or POVs.

Nijgoykar, pleas be civil. You cannot tell editors not to edit because they arent from Goa. I have told you this before so please take this as a final warning. You will be blocked for incivility if you continue with this. As it is you have broken the 3-revert rule today. Consider yourself lucky that you havent been reported for it. --Deepak D'Souza 09:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Religion in Goa

I think readers would like to see statistics or history of religion in Goa. Considering the heavy Portuguese influence and catholic churches, Goa does seem like it should be very different than the rest of India in terms or religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockford1963 (talk • contribs)

The community statistics are available in the Demographics section. The problem with adding a bit more about the history of Christianity in Goa only encourages other editors to put forth something about Hinduism, which they feel is being sidlined in coverage. See the above section. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I do not well understand the nuances inherit in Goa's history, however to be mute about this very unique aspect of Goa is a disservice to the reader I think. I can see there is a majority Hindu population in Goa, but was it always so? Goa is seemingly very different than the rest of India, if not for its curent religious demographics than for its historic importance in terms of incurison of western based religion (Christianity) into India. Correct me if I am wrong but it appears there was no other place in India that saw this much success in conversion of the inahbitants to christianity.Rockford1963 (talk) 22:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Whether Goa is unique or different from the "rest of India" is a matter of individual perception. Every Indian takes pride in his language/community/region/race etc and believes that it is unique. If the high percentage of Christians(30% as apposed to the national avg of 2.3%) marks out Goa as unique, there are two groups of people who would like to disagree:

1. The Christians of Kerala who will gladly point out that their state saw the establishement of the first Christian community in the orient well before Europe itself.
2. States like Nagaland, Mizoram and Meghalaya where 70-90% of the population is Christian. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 05:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The article on Goa, or more particularly a subsection on religion in Goa, is just that - about Goa - it is not an article comparing religion or christianity within India. From what you seem to be saying writing anything about religion within India will inflame passions no matter how well intentioned the submission. If so, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done - but done carefullyRockford1963 (talk) 20:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately yes :-) , that is what happens many times. Personally I do believe that the Portuguese and the Christian influences on Goan culture and identity are relevant in the article. So, how do you propose we go about building a neutral paragraph that doesn't make the other party feel sidelined. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 06:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

@Rockford1963: The Demographics section has since been updated to reflect the difference between native Goans (over 80% Catholic) and Indians residing in Goa (less than 30% Catholic). Over 50% of Goa residents have their origins in immigrants from British India, making Goa the only state in the country where the native people are outnumbered by non-natives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:3A80:18CB:231D:1801:C6E1:8636:3721 (talk) 07:17, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Portuguese language in Goa

Is Portuguese an official language of state of Goa? Ethnologue website says it is:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=por

Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.41.247.178 (talk) 12:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

No it is not!It used to be until 1961 not anymore.Nijgoykar (talk) 09:32, 31 March 2011 (UTC)