Talk:Gloriavale Christian Community

Neutrality Check Request

A neutrality check request has been made, pertaining to recent edits made by Special:Contributions/Bill_Tindale. This editor has added a "Public Relations" section and a volume of content describing the community in detail in a generally positive light. This content includes doctrinal statements about the beliefs of the community, and therefore could possibly be classified as "original research", especially as no references were cited in the original edit 276219719. When this contribution was added, the editor removed several negative references and links to negative information about the subject (although some of this information has since been added back in by other editors). The editor has added similar material in all of his/her edits to date.

There are some negative references within the text (for balance), the content being referred for POV check does not contain balance and needs to be checked or rewritten. PatrickDunfordNZ (talk) 08:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Aircraft

Gloriavale operates a charter aircraft. Fine. So what is the point of the statement that "it was noted flying from Canterbury to West Coast on 28 September 2015".Royalcourtier (talk) 02:26, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

They did indeed operate an airline. This has since been closed down I have made a section of this under the history. CHCBOY (talk) 19:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Cult and Christian two different matters

Gloriavale may or may not be a cult. Nothing in the article suggests that it is a cult - the description sounds very much like an Amish community.

However whether it is a cult or not, the matter of the members being Christian or not is a separate matter. The two questions should not be mingled.

The descriptions suggests a group which are very much Christian. I would like to know how the conclusion can be reached that they are placed "well outside the boundaries of the Christian faith". I am not saying that they are Christian, it is just that everything in the article suggests that they are very much Christian, and nothing to the contrary.

I also wonder whether the definition of cult is correct - it suggests that a Christian group cannot be a cult, but that a group which has practices which are "well outside the boundaries of the Christian faith" is therefore a cult.Royalcourtier (talk) 02:35, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

"In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices" Shutting themselves away from the rest of the world is socially deviant. Owing allegiance to Hopeful Christian or his successor is a novel practice. --Hugh7 (talk) 07:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

The Catholic church owes allegiance to Pope Francis, and the Coptic church does the same with their pope, does that make them cults? Although not as true an example (because what they say is not be all and end all), many church members will owe allegiance to their senior pastor, does that make them cults? 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:945F:E2E7:9E09:DC19 (talk) 02:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

TEDx Talk, Nov 2017

There'll potentially be extra attention on this page, after this talk presented the community in a damning light: I grew up in a cult. It was heaven -- and hell. | Lilia Tarawa | TEDxChristchurch - published by the TEDx Talks channel on Nov 16, 2017. (I'm guessing that a TED or TEDx Talk isn't notable unless it gets more than incidental coverage in WP:Reliable sources.) --Chriswaterguy talk 08:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Not a cult

I saw the comment above but just want to comment, look at the video of the girl who was apparently apart of this so-called "cult" (Lilia Tarawa) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7mBbXxJYA). Just because they live in communities, and they belt their children which Lilia accuses, does not make them a cult. Also, look at Lilia's sudden change of temperament from happy to sad and back to happy etc, it's frightening... Just because a parent belts their kid (even publicly which I think is just weird), does not make it a cult... a lot of mainline churches do that. And remember, half the world as Muslim nations do so too... 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:945F:E2E7:9E09:DC19 (talk) 02:22, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Let's look at relative characteristics of a cult, to which it fits many characteristics of: http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:186:4301:20E:A043:17A2:C42D:AD2E (talk) 17:14, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Compelled marriage is pretty cult-like. Allowing a child to be punched and kicked for a verbal transgression is not normal.

They fit a number of the criteria in the [Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame|http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html]. AFAIK, this is not recognized tool by any professional organization, but it's a pretty good way to evaluate the "cult" status of a religious community.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 23:20, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Inaccuracy in the "Sexual Abuse Allegations" section

The second paragraph of the "sexual abuse allegations" section says that 6 members (four adults and two children) were charged with abuse in 2020-2021. However, the sources provided say that only 3 members (two adults and one child) were charged (including the 20-year old in 2020). In addition, the sources do not specify sexual abuse but simply say that it was part of an ongoing child-abuse investigation. Perhaps the section should be renamed "Abuse Allegations." Theobvioushero (talk) 00:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I updated the section to reflect these changes, although I am still unsure if it should be titled "Sexual abuse allegations" or just "Abuse allegations." Most of the abuse charges are sexual, but a couple are unspecified. Theobvioushero (talk) 14:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 September 2022

I request permission to edit the Gloriavale page in Wikipedia. Nhy6Nhy6 (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. EnIRtpf09b^{chat with me} 04:49, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Rearranging article

I noticed that the Controversies section in this article is overly long. The section sizes template at the topic shows that the section is about 71,066 KB. Was thinking that some of the material could be shifted to the history section, which is really short. Just wanted to get advice from other Wikipedia users on how to proceed. Andykatib 09:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Have put in a template for the Controversies section being too long and support the refactoring of this section as suggested above. PatrickDunfordNZ (talk) 09:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@Andykatib: Thanks, I support re-arranging of content, with most of the topics currently listed under the Controversies heading moved to the History section. It may take a few iterations to optimise the structure, but please go ahead, as per WP:DOIT. I will keep a watch - just ask if you want me to comment, or undertake any of the re-arrangements. Marshelec (talk) 10:39, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Marshelec: and @PatrickDunfordNZ:, will go ahead. Have also been reading Lilia Tarawa's Daughter of Gloriavale. While it is mainly autobiographical, there is some content relating to Gloriavale's history that could go into the article. Andykatib (talk) 11:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I have relocated the work exploitation section including the two Employment Court cases to the history section. That is a pretty large section. We could either trim and condense the two court sections or alternatively we could create separate articles on the court cases. Let me know what works best. Andykatib (talk) 11:35, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

@Andykatib and PatrickDunfordNZ:. I have undertaken a major restructure of the article today. The lead needs expansion, and I am happy to have a first attempt at that, once there has been time for some reaction to the restructure. Let me know what you think of the revised structure. At this stage, I don't think the article needs splitting..Marshelec (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Marshelec:, thanks so much for taking the lead in reorganising the article sections. I liked how you broke up the controversies section and instead promoted the component subsections into their own sections. That will address the size issues mentioned above. I also liked how you merged the repetitive content around Gloriavale's businesses and integrated them into the history section. Article looks more evenly distributed now. I will do some work on Hopeful Christian when I am free. Andykatib (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Andykatib:. If you have read the book by Lilia Tarawa, perhaps there is some content about gender roles in the community that could be cited for adding content into the section now labelled Culture and beliefs ? I ask because it seems an important aspect that should be covered briefly in the (expanded) lead, but first needs to be in the body of the article. Can you help with this bit ? Marshelec (talk) 21:19, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Marshelec:, I will be happy to incorporate content from Lilia Tarawa's book. My brother has extended the loan on the library group till early October 2023. Will do it when I am free. Andykatib (talk) 22:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Marshelec:, I have expanded the lead section to four paragraphs summarising the main themes of the article. Let me know what you think and feel free to make changes. Andykatib (talk) 09:34, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Date of registration as charitable trust

2008 is the date it was first registered with the Charities Commission / Charities Services. However the documents filed there make it clear that the Trust concerned was first registered under the provisions of the Charitable Trusts Act in 1991.PatrickDunfordNZ (talk) 09:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Leadership of the community

There is scope for some additional content about the leadership of the community (and particularly the "overseeing shepherd"). The article uses this source already: [1] but it could be used to support more content about leadership. A further source that reveals how a small number of men have led the community over a long period is the constitution/ rules documents filed with Charity Services. There will be multiple other sources to support a section about leadership, and there may be sufficient for a new section specifically on this topic. In addition to describing their influence over the community, this section could include summaries of findings from court cases/prosecutions involving the leaders.__Marshelec (talk) 06:47, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Air West Coast

I added a section on this airline. It was a significant undertaking by the community and I believe it deserves it's own section to reflect that. It was mentioned briefly above but the two sources next to it were unrelated to the airline. CHCBOY (talk) 19:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The sourcing you used is largely inappropriate. A blog is not appropriate and timetables are not secondary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There are exceptions about the use of Blogs on Wikipedia though after reading the rules they are not completely banned for use as a source. CHCBOY (talk) 19:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Those exceptions refer to WP:NEWSBLOGS Traumnovelle (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the content for now but you could easily re-add it with the proper sourcing, here are several that confirm Gloriavale owned the company: [2] [3] [4] [5] Traumnovelle (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)