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Dubious

VartanM, please, provide proper source to Soviet census, the one you cited is not appropriate, as it has no page number, nor ISBN, nor document title or issue number. Atabek 22:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, is there any need? Anyways the Brockauz and Efron encycl. prove that words! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Andranik, you added the following quotes:
"the union of Georgian and Armenian armies near Gandzak", Great Soviet Encyclopedia
"Mkhitar Gosh was born in Gandzak", Mkhitar Gosh article
"Irakly with his army.... took Karin (Erzeroum), Dvin, Nakhichevan and Gandzak (Ganja)"
Can you please explain how the above quotes support the claims that Ganja was known as Gandzak among Armenians? None of those sources says anything remotely close to that. Grandmaster 12:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, these sources are going to prove that Armenian name Ganzdak exists. Do you really need a source asking Ganja was known as Gandzak among Armenians?[1][2] you can open any Armenian source! And it was known as Gandzak among Armenians since middle ages (Kirakos Gandzaketsi- Kirakos of Gandzak), or for example see the "Chronics" by Smbat Sparapet (XII century) : "he gave the Armenian city Gandzak to his junior brother Melek" (also see the comment: "Gandzak - modern Kirovabad, Azerbaijani SSR") [3] Or are you going to prove that the Gandzak name is known not only among Armenians (if yes, Im glad, the sources are asking the same thing)? Sorry but some days ago you denyed even the fact of existence of Gandzak name... Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Gandzak is corrupted Ganja. And the name was used not only by Armenians. See this Armenian primary source, this is a quote from Chronicles by Zachariah Kanakertsi, 17th century Armenian historian:
Некий человек из племени алван, которых ныне зовут удинами, из алванского города Гандзака, отправился в Святую обитель Гандзасара, где находится престол алванского католикоса, и стал учеником католикоса Ованнеса. [4]
Закарий Канакерци. Хроника.
Some man from the tribe of alvans, who are now called udis, from the alvanian town of Gandzak, went to the holy monastery of Gandzasar, where the residence of alvanian catholicos is located, and became a disciple of Catholicos Ovannes. Grandmaster 07:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Even Armenian sources refer to the city as Albanian. Grandmaster 07:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
And Bagramyan was not born in Ganja, he was born in the village of Chardakhly of Khanlar district, but not in the city of Ganja. Grandmaster 12:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

But Albania was also a region in Armenian Kingdom, so its never means the Gandzak name is not Armenian (if other nations also used it, Im glad, but its fact that Armenians too). Anyways if you believe its not only an Armenian name, than whats the problem to put it in the description, near the Turkish one? Otherwise we need to prove here even the existence of that name. Andranikpasha 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Really, Grandmaster, I see sources are asking different things, its really unclear. But as I know anyways he was born in Elizavetpol and taken to Chardakhlu after some days (its why the most reliable Soviet source marks Elizavetpol, not Chardakhlu)... Anyways we can make a consensus! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Parishan: the term "Azeris" can be applied only to the period from 1920 onward, whereas here we talk about the entire history of the city. There were no "Azeris" in the 19th century and before. Verjakette 13:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The passage refers to the Soviet census. The source used is called Soviet Census in 1926-1979, Newspaper Pravda Press, Moscow, 1983. And Moses of Kalankatuyk says that the city was founded in the 9th century, i.e. the area was part of Caucasian Albania at that time. Grandmaster 13:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No, the passage refers to the entire history of the city: that's why there are names of medieval Armenian figures like Gosh. I do not see any connection between what Movses of K. said and the argument about the "Azeris." the city had Arabs, Persians and even Kurds as residents. Sheddadi rulers of the city were in fact Kurds. Verjakette 14:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Verjakette, Mkhitar Gosh was not an Armenian but Albanian figure. You may want to refer to the works of CJF Dowsett for further information. In future, please, obtain sources for the material you add in this article. So far your contributions are not cited and appear to be original research. Thanks. Atabek 14:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, please don't bite the newcomers. Verjakette if you want to improve the articles you need to source them. Oh and Mkhitar Gosh was Armenian. VartanM 18:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, if you remember, I asked and sourced once during a arbitration that Gosh was an Armenian (even there werent a discuss on them). Must I repeat myself everywhere with the same reliable sources asking Gosh was an Armenian monk? Andranikpasha 18:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Andranik, there is no need to become emotional its just Atabek being Atabek. Nothing is Armenian for him. VartanM 19:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Haha. I just saw Atabek saying Mkhitar Gosh was not Armenian.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a good book on ethnic nationalism that has a chapter on Karabakh conflict. It discusses the formation of Azerbaijani people in the 1930s and Azerbaijani nationalist myths about their history. See: Stuart J. Kaufman. Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War. Cornell University Press (June 2001). ISBN-10: 0801487366. pages 50-65. I also noticed that Grandmaster and his friends have succeeded in suppressing a balanced narrative in the article Caucasian Albania; as a result, this article has very little if anything about the influence of Armenian culture and identity in Caucasian Albania - despite the almost complete absence of evidence that any "Caucasian Albanian" culture or ethnic identity ever existed. How can we keep this POV out of Wikipedia? Verjakette 22:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Kaufman's chapter about Azerbaijani nationalism is available online from Google Books. Atabek's point of view reflects Azerbaijani nationalist doctrine, and thus is a POV. Verjakette 23:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How come that no Albanian culture or ethnic identity ever existed, if it is well documented in Roman, Greek and Arabic sources, as well as modern scholarly literature? And why do you keep on removing the line that the area was part of Caucasian Albania at the time of the foundation of the city by Arabs? Whatever was before 387 is irrelevant to what took place in the 9th century A.D. Grandmaster 07:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is irrelevant because Caucasian Albania was a country dominated by Armenian culture and civilization imported from Armenian provinces of Artsakh and Utik. It's alphabet, created by no other than Mashtots, have never been in extensive use because it became redundant. Armenians assimilated non-Armenian "Albanians" by 387 AD (not a big surprise given that the latter were so disorganized, diverse, and, likely, too few). Very little - if anything - "Caucasian Albanian" (ethnically) is documented after it received Christian baptism from Armenians. By 387, Caucasian Albania became just another Armenian kingdom (there have always been more than one), and that is what Movses Kaghankatvatsi documented in his work. He never calls himself or others in his work "Albanians" but "easterners." Movses Khorenatsi writes in the 5th century (and that is an important quote) that "Armenian is not spoken east of Kura" (i.e. spoken west of Kura). Ganca was built on Armenian-dominated soil - that is the point, by Arabs, and was ruled later by a Kurdish dynasty, and then the Seljuks came. But still, Armenians made up at least one-third of its population. Verjakette 16:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No one is going to take away from Azerbaijanis what is rightfully their; if I were you I would concentrate on the Sheddadi dynasty - they started as Arabized Kurds but were Turkified by Seljuk Turks. Ganca was an important Muslim city after all. There is a lot to write about; leave alone the un-winnable dispute over "Caucasian Albanians." Verjakette 16:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Verjakette, Utik and Artsakh were not Armenian provinces all along, as you make it seem in the article. And just because Caucasian Albania experienced some Armenian influence does not mean we have to stick the word Armenia into every article, where Caucasian Albania is mentioned. The part about Albania being an Armenian state I do not even wish to comment on, it is pure OR. Parishan 05:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Verjakette, you say that "Armenians assimilated non-Armenian "Albanians" by 387 AD". If so, how come that Arabic geographers of the 10th century knew nothing about that? They all say that people of Arran spoke their own language, which was not Armenian, and Armenian was spoken only around the city of Dabil (Dvin). Please refrain from original research, it is against the Wikipedia rules. Even Armenian sources called Ganja an Albanian city, see the quote from the Armenian historian Zachariah Kanakertsi above. Grandmaster 11:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
See the Arabic sources of the 10th century:
Al-Muqaddasi wrote in 985:
В Армении говорят по-армянски, а в Арране по-аррански; когда они говорят по-персидски, то их можно понимать, а их персидский язык кое в чем напоминает хурасанский. [5]
In Armenia they speak Armenian, and in Arran Arranian; when they speak Persian, they could be understood, and their Persian somewhat resembles Khorasani.
Ibn-Hawqal wrote in 978:
Что касается до языка жителей Адербейджана и большинства жителей Армении, то это персидский и арабский, но мало кто говорит по-арабски, а, кроме того, говорящие по-персидски не понимают по-арабски. Чисто по-арабски говорят купцы, владельцы поместий, а для многих групп населения в окраинах Армении и прилежащих стран существуют другие языки, как армянский — для жителей Дабиля и области его, а жители Берда'а говорят по-аррански. [6]
As to the language of the people of Aderbeyjan and most of the people of Armenia, it is Persian and Arabic, but very few speak Arabic, besides, those who speak Persian do not understand Arabic. Fluent Arabic is spoken by merchants and landowners, and there are other languages for many population groups in the outskirts of Armenia and adjacent countries, such as Armenian for the people of Dabil and its area, and people of Berdaa speak Arranian.
Al-Istakhri wrote in 930:
Язык в Адербейджане, Армении и Арране персидский и арабский, исключая области города Дабиля: вокруг него говорят по-армянски: в стране Берда'а язык арранский. [7]
In Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic, except for the area around the city of Dabil: they speak Armenian around that city, and in the country of Barda people speak Arranian.
As you can see, they all say that people of Arran (Persian and Arabic spelling of Albania) spoke their own language, that was different from Armenia. Therefore your claims that “Ganca was built on Armenian-dominated soil” are nothing but original research, which is forbidden by the Wikipedia rules. Grandmaster 11:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

These passages show how confused are the authors whom you mentioned (not surprising - they are foreigners, saying something as strange as "in Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic." ?????). In the city of Berdaa the predominant language could have been non-Armenian (population in Artsakh and Utik could have been mixed, as argued by R.Hewsen), but it could have been a dialect of Armenian as well (for example, modern Karabakhi dialect is very, very hard to understand; it has twice (!) the number of vowels and some weird consonants - Russian Щ - compared with literary Armenian). That is why some researchers argue that the Albanian alphabet invented by Mashtots (if it existed at all) is simply a separate alphabet for the Armenian dialect of Artsakh and Utik. We simply do not know. Serbian and Bulgarian are mutually-intelligible but are considered as different languages nonetheless, the same is true about Azerbaijani and Turkish. Yesai Nchetsi writes that in the Middle Ages there were several Armenian languages. Any conclusion here original research by default - the entire "Albanian" stuff is complicated and incomplete. And what we should do - expose controversies that cause things not to add up. Verjakette 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian Albanian texts have been discovered and examined; none of the prominent scholars who worked on them ever brought forward the theory of Caucasian Albanian being a dialect of Armenian. Moses of Kalankatuik clearly names the tribe whose language was used as a model for the Caucasian Albanian alphabet, and does a good job describing its complicated phonology, alien to the Armenian language. I don't think we should spend our time here discussing odd and arbitrary conjectures. Parishan 00:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This is not true, the said texts were studied by a Georgian scholar who is known to recycle the Azerbaijani academia of science theories. The texts found were never deciphered, even by using the Udi dialect claimed by Azerbaijan and Georgian scholars to be the Albanian. In fact, all the manuscripts that were deciphered from Caucasian Albania ended up being Armenian, the few samples used by Georgian historians have yet to be deciphered. No credible scholar would assume before even being able to decipher. Summerian and very old writings have been deciphered so there is no excuse to keep the suspense so long, and we have the keys for Albanian alphabets found in Armenian manuscripts so any independent scholar is free to translate them but the Georgian Academia of Science prefer to keep those samples with its own interpretations trying to appropriate itself with Albanian history. VartanM 03:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Vartan, if so, name me one scholar who suggested and proved that the Caucasian Albanian alphabet was just another way of documenting Armenian texts. Parishan 06:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Parishan, provide any C.Albanian text and I will translate it for you using this alphabet[8]. You don't need scholars for that. Any Armenian with knowledge of 1500 year old Armenian alphabet can do it for you. VartanM 06:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

You are engaging in original research. The Arabic sources say that people of Arran and its capital Barda spoke their own Arranian language, and that is a verifiable fact. The rest are just your personal assumptions. A scholarly interpretation is that the language mentioned by Arabic sources was Albanian, and not some dialect of Armenian. See this quote from the article about Arran by C. E. Bosworth in encyclopedia Iranica:

Strabo 9.4, cites Theophanes of Mytilene that Albania had at least 26 different languages or dialects, and the distinctive Albanian speech persisted into early Islamic times, since Armenian and Islamic sources alike stigmatize the tongue as cacophonous and barbarous, with Estakhri, p. 192, Ebn Hawqal, p. 349, tr. Kramers-Wiet, p. 342, and Moqaddasi, p. 378, recording that al-Raniya was still spoken in the capital Barda’a or Bardaa in their time (4th/10th century). [9] Grandmaster 08:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster: I do not think people disagree with that: as you said - people of Arran and its capital Barda may have spoken their own Arranian language, and Albanian speech could have persisted into early Islamic times. That may be true. But this is not a hard fact. Your claim that it is a hard fact is a POV and original research. This is a hypothesis, and it should be categorized as such clearly. In contrast, the fact is that the Arranian "language" has been dead since early Islamic times, and only a handful of artifacts of Albanian script were discovered (and if those artifacts are indeed genuine documents and not forgeries, scholars cannot decipher those texts, as argued by VartanM). Against this flimsy evidence of non-Armenian life in Caucasian Albania there is a comparatively larger body of evidence about a near-complete assimilation of C.Albanian elites and commonfolk into Armenians shortly after Armenians turned them into Christians. Everything in Movses Kaghankatvatsi's texts is Armenian: first names of persons, toponyms, extensive discussion and identification with Armenians epical ancestors and saints, invention of "Albanian" script by Mashtots, etc. Modern Armenians bear "Albanian" names after all (Vachagan, Aghvan, Vache, etc.). That is a fact. My advise - give up this fight, or show more flexibility. Verjakette 14:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

...however, quotations from Arabic sources are interesting and useful; thanks for digging them up. Verjakette 22:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not a version, it is a fact reported by at least 3 contemporary sources, who knew the difference between Armenian and other languages, as they described the areas where Armenian was spoken. It is confirmed by modern scholars too, so it is not a subject to dispute. We know that as late as the 10th century people of Albania spoke their own language. As for Movses, since his book is in Armenian, spelling of many words was adapted to Armenian language, but it is not a proof that Albanian language was extinct in the 10th century. We have reports of a number of primary sources clearly saying that Albanian language was the only prevailing in the area at that time. Grandmaster 09:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed Kaufman references, as its claim was simply ridiculous. How could Azerbaijanis/Azeris be named since 1930s, when the sovereign nation of Azerbaijan was established in 1918, moreover, Azerbaijan as historical name was known for ages. Atabek (talk) 08:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi ! Mybe Kaufman is talking about the new interperitation of Russians about the Azerbijanis:before that ,the Azeris and the Turkic speaking peoples of that region were considered as "Tatar" by Russians.The Azeris called themselves as "Qezilbash" , after 1930s , the Russians policy of adding Iranian Azerbijan to USSR made them to change their previous point of view and naming them by a new name....--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted some unexpl. deletions of sourced info. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted some of the information about Ganja, because all of the references indicated are subjective and reflect only the position of the Armenian side. The history of Ganja is described based solely on the opinion of the Armeninan historians instead of facts. Wikipedia is a place where one can obtain facts not opinions. Therefore, I suggest that the information based on the views of historians will be removed. Ganjali. February 15, 2008.

Dubious claim

I removed a claim that the city of Ganja was part of the Kingdom of Armenia. It is logically impossible, as the city was founded in the 9th century A.D., and the Kingdom of Armenia stopped existing in the 4th century A.D. The following was used as a source for the claim:

Cameron, Averil; Bryan Ward-Perkins, Michael Whitby (April 16, 2001). The Cambridge Ancient History Volume 14: Late Antiquity: Empire and Successors, AD 425-600. Cambridge University Press, p. 674. ISBN 0521325919.

I would like to see the precise quote from the above source, as I highly doubt that this quote is accurate. Such authoritative sources as Minorsky or Iranica never mention Ganja as part of Armenia, since it is impossible because of timing. Grandmaster (talk) 05:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There was a medieval Kingdom of Armenia, of course; but I'll see what I can do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
  • This article does not say the city was founded in the 9th century; it says Arab chroniclers said it was, a significant difference.
  • The quotation deals with Gandzak, but since that redirects to the dab page, I presume this to be a difference of language.
  • The quotation deals with the restoration of Khusro II in 591: The legitimate heir, Khusro II, son of Hormizd, appealed to the emperor Maurice for help, promising in return to cede to the empire all of Armenia as far as Lake Van and Drin, plus part of Georgia. The offer was accepted, and the Armenians under Mushegh, prince of the Mamikoneans, sided with Khusro and the Byzantines. Their combined forces defeated Vahram the following year at Gandzak in eastern Armenia. Installed as ruler of Persia, Khusro fulfilled his promise: Armenia west of the Hrazdan and Azat rivers passed to Byzantium.
  • Gandzak did exist, and was part of Armenia; but Armenia was then, as it usually was, partitioned between Rome and Persia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
That's apparently a different Gandzak, in Iran. This city was founded in the 9th century. See Iranica:
It is not to be confused, in a pre- and early Islamic context, with the near-homonymous Ganjak (q.v.; Ar. ˆ^z) in Azerbaijan, the site of a famous fire temple (see Markwart, Provincial Capitals, pp. 108-10). [10]
As for Ganja in Caucasus, it was founded by Arabs in Islamic times. The Kingdom of Armenia ceased to exist in the 4th century, and this area became a part of Caucasian Albania. So it could not be a part of Armenia due to timing. The foundation of the city by Arabs is confirmed by the historian of Caucasian Albania Movses Kagankatvatsi, see the same source, and also see C. J. F. Dowsett. A Neglected Passage in the "History of the Caucasian Albanians" Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 19, No. 3. (1957), pp. 456-468. and Vladimir Minorsky. History of Shirvan and Derbend, they describe the same in more detail.
But even if we assume the earliest date of foundation of the city proposed by some scholars, i.e. 5th century A.D., the city still could not have been a part of the Kingdom of Armenia, first, because no such kingdom existed at the time, and second, because the region was part of Caucasian Albania at that time.
So the above source that refers to Ganja in 591 clearly points to a different place, as in the 6th century the region was not a part of the Kingdom of Armenia. Grandmaster (talk) 05:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
And here's a source that confirms that it is Ganja/Ganzak in Iran that is mentioned in The Cambridge Ancient History. See below, the article from Encyclopedia Iranica about the second Ganja:
Ganzak appears in the late Pahlavi text Šahrestānīhā ī Ērān (sec. 56) as one of Azerbaijan’s two cities (the other being then probably Ardabīl, Markwart, Provincial Capitals, pp. 22, 106). It figures also in two late episodes of Sasanian history. In 590 Ḵosrow II Parvēz finally defeated Bahrām Čōbīn (q.v.) in a battle nearby; and in 628 Ganzak itself was taken by the Byzantine emperor Heraclius, who reported it to be a large town, with “about 3000 houses” (Minorsky, p. 251; Schippmann, 1971, p. 316). It survived into Islamic times, and is last mentioned by Yāqūt (III, pp. 353-55; Schippmann, Feuerheiligtümer, p. 323) as “a fairly flourishing small town in Azerbaijan, near Marāḡa, where are to be seen ruins of edifices built by the ancient kings of Persia, and a fire temple;” but whether this was the situation in Yāqūt’s own day, and when and by whom Ganzak was devastated, is not known. [11]
Bahram Chobin is Vahram from your source, he was Khosrow’s rival for power. He was defeated in 590 A.D. near Ganja in Atropatene. I think this brings clarity in confusion with 2 Ganja's. Grandmaster (talk) 11:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Come now; Atropatene is Azerbaijan. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, yes, it is. I never said it was not. My point is that the source that you quoted refers to a different city by the name of Ganja, the one in Iranian Azerbaijan, on the other side of Araks. Grandmaster (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. (This is another, independent, reason, to have Ganja or Ganzak as a dab page; they're ambiguous.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
If there's an article on the second Ganja, then the dab page is necessary, I agree. But then again, the second Ganja is a currently non-existent city, so I'm not sure how to prioritize the links. We need to think of the best way of organizing the links to avoid confusion. Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
And yes, there's an article about the second Ganja, called Ganzak. I added the link to disambig page. Let it be at disambig unless any other solution is agreed. Grandmaster (talk) 05:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The city dates from the 5th century, and was founded in the early 400's.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a source for that? And the source that you quoted has no relevance to this Ganja, it is about Ganzak in Iran, see the above discussion. It was never a part of Kingdom of Armenia, so please read the talk and discuss before reverting. Grandmaster (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
It's regarding this city, called Gandzak. This article as well states with a source that: "the city existed in pre-Islamic times and was likely founded in the fifth century A.D". Your assumption that the source refers to Ganzak in Iran is unsubstantiated original research. Please refrain from making unilateral changes in the future.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 21:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the quote from your source kindly provided by Septentrionalis:
The legitimate heir, Khusro II, son of Hormizd, appealed to the emperor Maurice for help, promising in return to cede to the empire all of Armenia as far as Lake Van and Drin, plus part of Georgia. The offer was accepted, and the Armenians under Mushegh, prince of the Mamikoneans, sided with Khusro and the Byzantines. Their combined forces defeated Vahram the following year at Gandzak in eastern Armenia. Installed as ruler of Persia, Khusro fulfilled his promise: Armenia west of the Hrazdan and Azat rivers passed to Byzantium.
According to this article in Iranica [12], the battle was near the city of Ganzak in Iran. Also, even if the city was founded in the 5th century A.D., it still could not be a part of kingdom of Armenia, as there was no such state at the time. So please refrain from adding dubious info to the article and do not engage in WP:OR. Thank you. Grandmaster (talk) 21:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
That is original research. The source is referring to Gandzak located in Eastern Armenia. You're engaging in original research. As for the Kindom of Armenia, it was absorbed into the Sassanid Empire in 428 with the dissolution of the monarchy. I don't know how you're counting, but 428 AD is in the 5th century where I come from.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 21:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not engaging in any original research. How can you prove that your source mentions this particular Ganja, when there was more than one city with that name in the region? So it is you who makes OR. Other sources make it pretty clear that Bahram Chobin was defeated near Ganja/Ganzak in Iran. See the article about Bahram in Iranica, he was defeated near different Ganja. Also see the article about Kingdom of Armenia, it was not an independent state after 387 АD, and territories on the right bank of Kura were in possession of Albania since 387 АD. So Ganja in Albania could not be part of Armenia in the 5th century A.D. Grandmaster (talk) 07:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Also see Roman-Persian War of 572–591 and check which Ganzak is mentioned there. Grandmaster (talk) 09:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, another source:
The final battle at Ganzak, by the river Blarathos, in late summer was a decisive victory for Khusro and his allies. The bulk of the Roman forces then returned to Roman territory.
Geoffr Greatrex. Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars: 363-628 AD, a Narrative Sourcebook ISBN-10: 0415146879
Now check where the river Blarathos and Ganzak were located, here’s the map from another book: [13]
I think this puts an end to this discussion. Grandmaster (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Gandzak in the source provided is located in Eastern Armenia as the refernce clearly states. Your attempt to ignore the source with original research is a waste of time. But even your original research is inaccurate. The Ganzak you are referring to is located in a territory that is way beyond any territory that has ever been under an Armenian dominion, while the source states that Gandzak was in Eastern Armenia. As for the Kingdom, whether it was independent or not is irrelevant. It was a Kingdom with its monarchy and its territories until 428 under Sassanid vassalage from 387. Caucasian Albania never existed as a unified state and was nothing more than a geographic designation for most of its history. Some Armenian territories from the right bank were assigned to the Sassanid province of Albania in the mid fifth century only for administrative purposes and they never reached that far west anyway. I believe we're done now. -- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Your source refers to Ganzak as a place where Bahram was defeated, and all the sources say that Bahram was defeated at Ganzak in Iran. He could not have been defeated twice in the same year at 2 different Ganzaks. So clearly the source refers to Ganzak in Iran. Check the sources again: "The final battle at Ganzak, by the river Blarathos", etc. And the article about Iranian Ganzak in Iranica says the same. You never even commented about those sources, I wonder why. And Albania did exist as a unified state and the territories at the right bank of Kura were at firm possession of Albania since 387, so Ganja could not have been a part of Armenia in the 5th century, as the borders of Armenia did not extend to that territory at the time. Grandmaster (talk) 07:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
As is known, Ganja in Caucasus was built in the province of Utik of Caucasian Albania. Albania lost it to Armenia, and regained it in 387. See Minorsky:
Only after the division of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia in 387 did the provinces of Uti and Artsakh (lying south of the Kur) fall again to the lot of the Albanian ruler. The earlier capital of Albania seems to have lain north of this river, whereas the later capital Perozapat (Partav, Barda'a) was built by the Albanian Vach'e only under the Sasanian king Péroz (457-84).
Vladimir Minorsky. A History of Sharvān and Darband in the 10th-11th Centuries.
If you need more sources on that, I can provide them. The fact is that Armenia had no control over this territory after the 4th century. Grandmaster (talk) 08:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree. there should be more proves that the source is refering to present Ganja.

move from Ganja → Ganja (city)

I disapprove of this move, which was done without discussion. No disambiguation page is needed for only 2 definitions (per WP:MOS). This article should be moved back to Ganja, but as far as I know that can only be done by an administrator. —jacobolus (t) 18:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Update: it turns out that a disambig page also already exists at Ganja (disambiguation). —jacobolus (t) 18:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It is not at all clear that this city is the primary meaning of ganja, which it should be to hold the undisambiguated name. I would expect that more people are going to be looking up ganja as a synonym for marijuana, either because it's the word they can think of, or they've met ganja as an unexplained allusion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
Agree. I wouldn't even redirect the unqualified name to Ganja {city), it should point to the disambig IMO. Either that or move the disambig to the unqualified name. Andrewa (talk) 06:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Andrew and Anderson. Move the disambiguation page to Ganja, leave the city where it is. Narson (talk) 14:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
That's silly. The overwhelming majority of other wiki pages linking to Ganja are going to be looking for the city. Users looking for a slang term for cannabis can afford to click a link or two. “Ganja” in the sense of cannabis does not merit its own page, and doesn’t have one, so there is no real contention for articles belonging at Ganja. —jacobolus (t) 20:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the city name is more important than cannabis. So the name of Ganja should point to the city and the disambig link point to other meanings of the word. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Importance isn't an issue (And is highly subjective. To the recreational drug taker, I am sure ganja as a term for cannabis is /far/ more important than the second city in a country where I doubt most English speakers could name the capital city). Primary usage is what we look for. There is no clearly defined primary usage (IMO) for the term and certainly no evidence provided to the contrary in the request. To paraphrase jacobolus, users looking for a small city in Azerbaijan can afford to click a link or two. Narson (talk) 09:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
It is a second largest city in Azerbaijan with the population of about half a million, so it is not so small. I'm not really sure that cannabis is the primary usage of the word, and there's no article for ganja as cannabis, as it was correctly noted above. Grandmaster (talk) 10:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
What you seem to be missing is that there are all kinds of links all over Wikipedia to “Ganja” which are intended for the article about the city (perfectly logically). Those who look up “Ganja” used as a slang term for cannabis are just aiming for a dictionary definition: that usage has no article of its own, nor does it merit one. —jacobolus (t) 10:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Jacobolus. Grandmaster (talk) 10:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
So fix the links to the correct location, Jacobolus. That or prove primary usage. You want the move, put some effort in. Narson (talk) 17:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Wait, what? You want me to go change the links so that after a move they'll be wrong and need to be changed back, as a way of proving my willingness to “put effort in”?!! That is idiotic. This whole situation was fine, before a complete novice user, with no discussion before-hand, made a move of this article, which I consider to be contra WP:MOS. I would suggest that we move back to the previous status quo, then thos who want Ganja to point somewhere else can argue for it. I would be WP:BOLD make such a change myself, but I'm not an administrator, so I can't. —jacobolus (t) 17:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I said fix the links in response to your statement that it should be moved back because alot of links are pointing at the wrong place. I then mentioned proving primary usage, that is where the effort should be put in. Prove it is primary usage and you'll be the belle of the ball/cat with the cream/dogs bollocks/whatever other term you want. As for non-discussed moves, I can sympathise with your frustration (the Amritsar Massacre got moved to the Indian name for it sometime back without discussion and attempts to move it back have failed). Sadly one of those areas where the editors who try and do things by consensus are at a disadvantage. Narson (talk) 17:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The links are pointing at the right place. Just the article isn't there. —jacobolus (t) 18:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The incorrect article then. You know what I meant. Narson (talk) 18:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The move to Ganja, Azerbaijan seems a good outcome. I've delisted this page from the WP:RM backlog, I think the proposal listed there is now obsolete. Andrewa (talk) 01:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I disagree. It should still be moved to Ganja. --jacobolus (t) 04:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, relisting as Ganja, Azerbaijan -> Ganja. Suggest that as far as possible you base your arguments on WP:NC; Arguments such as that's silly tend to damage rather than advance your case IMO. Andrewa (talk) 15:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move, but move Ganja (disambiguation) to Ganja. JPG-GR (talk) 02:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Ganja, Azerbaijan → Ganja — See discussion above —Andrewa (talk) 15:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Oppose as above, there is no proof of primary usage being Ganja the city. Current situation (Or possibly even with disambig page moved onto Ganja) is best. Narson (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Primary usage not established. Moreover, continued proposals to move these articles around better supports Ganja (disambiguation) → Ganja. JPG-GR (talk) 17:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support — Ganja as cannabis is a (slang!) dictionary definition. WP has nothing as far as I know to say about the subject, and those linking to marijuana or cannabis link directly to those terms. Ganja the city has 300,000 people and has had significant impact through thousands of years of history. A link to the disambiguation page at the top of the article about the city is quite sufficient for dealing with the first use case (looking up the slang term). Furthermore, if we leave Ganja as a disambiguation page, or redirected there, we will get a consistent stream of wrongly-targeted wiki-links. —jacobolus (t) 18:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Regardless of whether the city or the drug is the most prevalent usage, it's become obvious that there is no primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 03:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

There is some work done on a google search on the disambig talk page...I'll copy it below.. Narson (talk) 22:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ganja in reference to marijuana is the more common term that is recognized. the city in Azerbaijan does not have as much recognition, at least in the english language.
Mpondopondo (talk) 05:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

From survey above: Ganja as cannabis is a (slang!) dictionary definition. Wikipedia:naming conventions do not distinguish slang from everyday usage. Andrewa (talk) 03:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

?? Wikipedia doesn't include dictionary definitions whatsoever. —jacobolus (t) 11:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
No but it is reasonable to assume people who type in Ganja might be looking for the article on cannabis, not to find out what it means, but what it is. To read an article about it. It would certainly, if the other Ganja's didn't exist, be a redirect. Hence it is, as a common word for something, an entry on the disambiguation page and it comes into play when we consider what a person is looking for when they enter 'Ganja' into the search box. No-one is pushing for Cannabis to be the primary meaning of the word 'Ganja', I should point out. Narson (talk) 18:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Armenian Community

I added the Historic Armenian community section back. I take full responsibility for the text as if I wrote it myself. There really is no good reason to exclude this information from this article. --VartanM 01:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Also,I followed Grandmasters advice and requested permanent semi-protection. Which was declined, I guess we gonna have to go with my suggestion and rename the article to Gandzak. That would defiantly end all "ganja" related vandalism. But it might attract some Armenian pirates looking for gandz :) --VartanM 01:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is the section a problem?Hajji Piruz 03:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
It was removed because it was added by a suspected sockpuppet of Robert599. I re-added and take full responsibility for it. --VartanM 03:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This edit is made by the banned user, and the rules require undoing all edits of banned users. Plus, this edit is factually inaccurate anyway. I explained above that Kalankatuatsi actually says that the city was founded by Arabs, unlike what the sock claims. This edit was reverted by the Wikipedia admin as well, so please stop restoring it. Grandmaster 09:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster is there anything else you dispute besides the founding of the city? VartanM 15:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, I dispute pretty much all of original research which you put in without proper reference. I will add appropriate fact tags at the end of each sentence, which is not sourced, and you're welcome to bring those references to discussion. Atabek 22:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, why would someone not add sections about strong Azerbaijani communities that for centuries existed in almost every major city of the modern-day Armenia to each relevant article? It is really irrelevant to see a whole big section about an Armenian minority population of an Azerbaijani city. As usual, it is an obvious attempt to indirectly advance baseless Armenian territorial claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 (talk) 23:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, who are these people Karo Halabyan and Askanaz Mravyan to be mentioned in the main body of the article? These personalities were so insignificant that they do not merit to be mentioned there. Just because they each have a small entry at the Soviet Encyclopedia doesn't mean they were so important. At most, you can move them to the famous people list. I am sure that even 99.999% of Armenians have never heard about this people. There have been hundreds of other people (mostly non-Armenians) hailing from Ganja who have been or are more prominent than those Armenians who are mentioned. Just goes to show that some people wish to show as many Armenian names as possible in this article, to advance goals which I mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 (talk) 23:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

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