Talk:Direct grant grammar school

Direct grant grammar school has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 6, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed

Schools Mid‑importance

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Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

England Mid‑importance

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Education in the United Kingdom (inactive)

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Assessment

I am assessing this article following a request as B/Mid. The article is well written, contains plenty of well cited references, and seems to have most content needed so hence I am giving it B-class. The importance of school type articles is more ambiguous than for individual school article, as this article contains important history and is linked to many important schools, I am giving it Mid importance. Its UK only nature however would make High/Top importance inappropriate. Camaron · Christopher · talk 14:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Direct grant grammar school/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aiken ♫ 14:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very nice work! Some minor points before I can promote:

Lead

Is there a good picture to put in the lead? There's some nice pics below, I'm assuming there must be one.

Origins

"Secondary schools controlled by voluntary bodies could receive grant..." Should it not be 'a grant' or 'grants'?
Local Education Authority or Local Authority? Capitalised or not?
What's a "Circular 1381"?

Direct Grant Scheme

What's LEA? (I know really, but the reader might not)
Direct grant school or direct grant grammar school?

Characteristics of the schools

"Their results were certainly impressive..." POV?

That's all, placing on hold. Aiken ♫ 15:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your work on reviewing this. In response to your comments:

Is there a good picture to put in the lead? There's some nice pics below, I'm assuming there must be one.
I've moved the Manchester Grammar image to the lead. It's not the prettiest, but it is the school always mentioned as an example of the type. Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Aiken Drum 15:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Secondary schools controlled by voluntary bodies could receive grant..." Should it not be 'a grant' or 'grants'?
changed to 'a grant' Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Local Education Authority or Local Authority? Capitalised or not?
The sources use both terms, but LEA more after the 1944 Act. I've changed Local Authority to lower case. Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What's a "Circular 1381"?
Expanded a little to explain Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What's LEA? (I know really, but the reader might not)
The abbreviation is now introduced in the Origins section. Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Direct grant school or direct grant grammar school?
The terms are used interchangeably in the sources, and I found it cumbersome to use the full form everywhere. Also the full form would be anachronistic before 1944. Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Their results were certainly impressive..." POV?
"impressive" was Donnison's word, but I've replaced it. Kanguole 23:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - this now meets criteria. Aiken Drum 15:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Title

I am surprised at the article title. I attended one of these schools in the 1960s. At that time, they were never called "direct grant grammar schools" - they were simply "direct grant schools". The term "grammar school" was used, in contrast, for selective schools in the national state education system - the direct grant schools were seen as independent of the state system. I am no expert on the education system or legislation, but I would like to see sources that explicitly use the term "direct grant grammar school". Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:52, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You may well be right, but the selection for the direct grant places made them part of the grammar system, and I believe a number of them had 'Grammar' as part of the individual school name- Manchester, King Edward's Birmingham, etc.

Gravuritas (talk) 13:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Both terms appear in the sources. For "direct grant grammar school", we could start with the Donnison Report, Report on Independent Day Schools and Direct Grant Grammar Schools, which is the definitive account of these schools, or the Direct Grant Grammar Schools (Cessation of Grant) Regulations 1975. More uses can be found with a Google books search. There were also a few direct grant technical schools and over a hundred direct grant special schools. Kanguole 16:52, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there you are... I've learned something new today. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Fees after 1944

By the interwar period I believe many county councils were providing financial help for bright kids from modest backgrounds who won places at grammar school (my own uncle won a place at grammar school but could not afford to go, in Cwmbran circa 1930, but Ted Heath was, I think, given help by Kent County Council in the late 1920s/early 1930s).

The books I've read seem a little confused about what happened to fees in the 1944 Butler Act. Some books say Butler's Act guaranteed free secondary education for all. Others say that some or all grammar schools still charged fees for some pupils. If so, did this continue until the grammar schools were absorbed into the comprehensive system a generation later, unless they went private again?

I'd be interested to learn. Preferably from somebody who actually knows what he is talking about and can point us to an authoritative source, focussed on the specific matter in hand (eg. a concrete statement as to whether or not fees were still payable, by a writer who has clearly given the matter some thought or research, not an oblique, tangential and not necessarily accurate reference in a book focussed on something else).Paulturtle (talk) 12:05, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't the second paragraph of the "Direct grant scheme" section (and the references therein) address this issue? See also Grammar school#In the Tripartite System for the two types of grammars. Kanguole 12:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's useful. I think some writers might be being a bit sloppy, or wikipedia editors summarising them sloppily.Paulturtle (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Have you found something in this article that needs clarifying or fixing? Kanguole 14:03, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure it's fine. It's the inaccuracies in other, more general, articles which need fixing.Paulturtle (talk) 03:20, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom?

The article has recently been edited to suggest these were a UK-wide phenomenon, yet the only legislation mentioned applied only in England and Wales. THis needs clearing up. DuncanHill (talk) 19:58, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]