Talk:Complete Jewish Bible

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Text and/or other creative content from Complete Jewish Bible was copied or moved into Messianic Bible translations with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

This article was nominated for deletion on 19 November 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was merge to Messianic Bible translations.

Debatable theology content

I see there are attempts by Messianics to deny the fact -- and it is a fact -- that the theology represented by this translation is rejected by the vast majority of Christians. It simply is. You don't have to like that fact for it to be a fact.Dean Esmay (talk) 14:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is as maybe (I would like to see some sort of proof or even evidence for that claim), but it doesn't mean that one side of the issue are correct or not. In areas such as theology the majority do not have a habit of being correct. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What theology are you talking about? I'm a non-Jewish Christian, but I believe in the idea of a remnant, and to my mind there's nothing wrong with keeping Torah (if you're Messianic) as long as it isn't legalistic and you trust in Jesus as Savior.129.7.254.33 (talk) 00:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does this comment refer to - seeing that nothing since your last has been added. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is NOT a Jewish bible and is very misleading.

A Jewish bible does not include any potion of the New Testament. Period. To say that it does, is blasphemy and disrespectful towards Jewish people. None of the branches of Judaism accept any writings of the New Testament, nor is it accepted canon within Jewish belief. The religious affiliation of this "bible" should be Christian, as it contains writings that are antithesis to Jewish though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KosherYid (talk • contribs) 00:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC) KosherYid (talk) 00:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Messianic Judaism is already defined in Wikipedia -- as a Christian sect. Is the title misleading? Yes, but Wikipedia did not invent the title, nor did it invent the title "Messianic Judaism." We do not invent or correct -- we merely report. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 00:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, when you click on Messianic Judaism it does not say anywhere within the Wikipedia article that it is a Christian Sect. To quote from the first paragraph,

Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jewish.[7] However, Jews[8] of all denominations[9] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism. Many Christians consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.

If anything, Jewish people should define what Judaism is, not an outside sect, which embraces a theology that is the antithesis of Judaism.KosherYid (talk) 00:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm -- looks like the Messianic Judaism article needs to have some weasle words removed. In any case, "Messianic Judaism" is the self designation of a movement accepted by Christianity but not accepted by Judaism -- as defined by their mainstream branches. Of course, there is the sticky wicket of INDIVIDUALS in that movement since many are halakhically Jewish by birth. But their RELIGION is a Christian movement called "Messianic Judaism." Look, Christians believe Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. There's going to be some name hijacking endemic to the movement. We just have to be as clear as we can within the rules of Wikipedia. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 00:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First and foremost, those "weasle words" should be removed. Secondly, a "Messianic Jew" is traditionally, any Jew who ascribes to Maimonides' 13 Principles. They are not part of a Christian sect whose mission is to "Spread the Gospel to the Jew first". For Christians to brand themselves as Messianic Jews, is saying a person is a half-pregnant. Now at no point did I say that members of this non-Jewish religion were not Halachically Jewish, if your mother is Jewish, then you will remain Jewish. However, those who embrace a religion that views that Jesus is the son of G-d, or that he is G-d Manifest, and etc, those people have opted out of the Jewish community and therefore their rights as a Jew cease. The one exception is if that person does teshuva. KosherYid (talk) 01:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're not here to say what should be said, but to say what notable and verifiable sources say -- using their own terms. When there is a disconnect, a clarification may be in order. But we can't stop using terms people use just because we disagree with them. We are to report accurately what these groups say and how they say it. Do all Christians baptize? Yes. Then why is only one group called "Baptist"? Answer -- because they picked that name. That's all. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 01:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using that logic then, based on Maimonides' 13 principles, the term Messianic Judaism is being used incorrectly. Maimonides' principles and acceptance of a Jewish Messiah pre-dates this "current" form of Messianic Judaism, really came into being with advent of the Jews for Jesus missionary organization. Furthermore, looking at this topic, regarding the bible in question on this page, please explain to me the difference between this bible and any other christian bible? It contains all the major books that a traditional christian bible does, and includes canon not accepted in any Jewish bible. Lastly, if you go to the Wikipedia page of the New Testament, you will see that it is identified as a Christian bible.KosherYid (talk) 11:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to keep arguing this with you on the article talk page. Messianic Judaism points to an article about a Christian movement. Baptist does the same. Judaism points to mainstream Judaism. If you put double brackets around the terms and examine which articles they take you to, your life will be a lot easier here. Is the Complete Jewish Bible a Christian Bible? Yes. Is it a Messianic Jewish Bible? Yes. Which is most specifically accurate? Messianic Judaism is a more specific term than Christian, and it explains the purpose of that version better than the generic Christian. It's no more complicated than that. Surely you don't want people to start thinking "Messianic Jewish" points to mainstream Judaism! That would accomplish the exact opposite of what you are trying to accomplish. Just slow down, pick a different subject for a few weeks, and get the hang of this. Beseder? SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]