Talk:Catherine of Bosnia, Countess of Cilli/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Catherine of Bosnia, Countess of Cilli. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Death year

I think the statement "There is a famous coin with Catherine's image which confirms that Catherine died in the 15th century." is dubious - almost everywhere outside Wikipedia it is stated she died in c. 1396. A quote from a reliable source for it would be needed here. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 09:33, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The source was given in the article, until you removed it along with the info. I am not sure I understand your position. You inserted a death date of "c. 1396" without a source, and based on that removed a contradicting piece of information along with its source. That does not seem very logical. Surtsicna (talk) 09:50, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

This source was added for the first time in the Bosnian Wikipedia[1] along another one that does not contain this information at all.(Katharine von Celje-Kotromanic and Her Seal) As you may see from the diff, the first source cites the second: "International Numismatic Commission: A Survey of numismatic research, 1978-1984: Ancient, medieval and modern numismatics (Katharine von Celje-Kotromanic und ihr Siegel); 1986", making it appear none of them actually contains the information. This makes the entire edit dubious, therefore, it seems best that we should rather use the information from other sources (or none at all, if the online genealogies are deemed unreliable). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 10:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see that "the first source cites the second". Where do you see that? I see two separate citations and no reason to doubt them. It appears that one of them contains the other. Anyway, it is hard to believe that a paper called "Catherine of Cilli-Kotromanić and Her Seal" does not contain information about Catherine's seal, including the year/decade from which it dates. Surtsicna (talk) 14:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The first cited source is the article "Katharine von Celje-Kotromanic und ihr Siegel" in the book "International Numismatic Commission: A Survey of numismatic research, 1978-1984", which is judged by exactly the same title the same as the article in dlib.si I linked (the second cited source; there's a German summary "Katharina von Celje – Kotromanič und ihr Siegel" at pg. 287). This article doesn't state anything at all about a coin from after-1400, it actually describes a seal that dates to 1374! How can it then be used as a support for the statement that "There is a famous coin with Catherine's image which confirms that Catherine died in the 15th century."?! --Eleassar ^{my talk} 16:26, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I see that you've replaced the word coin with seal. Anyway, the cited source doesn't state anything about the support for the death after 1400 and the seal doesn't show Catherine's image at all (a photograph of it is available at pg. 289). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 16:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, I only now realized that the link included a PDF document. You appear to be right; the seal does not depict Catherine, and the paper seemingly says nothing about her death. I've consequently removed the claim. On a side note, however, I wonder if we can upload the image of the seal to be used in the article. The author of the photograph, Božo Otorepec, is unfortunately dead - and not dead long enough (having died in 2008). Do images of medieval seals perhaps fall into public domain on the account of the age of the seal (as with paintings and other 2D works of art)? Surtsicna (talk) 07:29, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. In regard to the photo, it depicts a 3D-object and is as such not covered by the WMF provision for the 2D works of art (see commons:Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag#Photograph of an old coin found on the Internet). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)